Obama will raise the capital gains tax

[Gman]

and every working class Democrat needs to take notice. If you have stock from your company and you sell it, you have a paper gain that is now taxed at 15%. Did you earn that paper gain? No, but if you're trying to pay medical bills with it or keep your house from being foreclosed on, you need that 15%.

The capital gains tax hits working class Americans hard. The answer is to cut the capital gains tax, not raise it and punish working people trying to make ends meet. Anyone that is gainfully employed and has any stock in their company cannot argue with this. Anyone else,.. well consider the source.

Want to pay the government more? Nominate and elect Obama. Obama shows just how clueless he is about the middle class. Will Hillary cut the capital gains tax? I don't know, but I sure as hell hope so.

If you're a working class stiff and you get screwed for 15% on a paper gain on your stock you cashed in and you don't like it, don't let it get to you that the fools here at DU call you a DLC'er. They don't know WTF they're talking about and most never had a real job anyway. Maybe it's daddy's money or something they live off of. The DLC may look out for those that make good money, but a lot of us get carried along for the ride too. All working people win when capital gains tax gets cut.

[woolldog]

1. Bad idea.

This is part of Obama's platform I have a BIG problem with. We need a capital gains tax cut, across the board.

[TahitiNut]

100. Utter garbage.

There's no morality in taxing income from one's own labor at higher rates than income from the labors of others. That's antebellum crap. Got slaves?
:puke:

[woolldog]

109. That's a distorted view of what a capital gain is.

A capital gain is an increase in the value of a capital asset. A capital asset is simply a piece of that creates benefits over a period of time, like a factory buying a machine or piece of equipment. Stocks are simply one form of capital asset.

When you purchase a gold bar, save it, and then sell it you're not profiting from anyone else's labor.

When you buy a piece of real estate and sell it, you aren't benefiting from someone else's labor.

[TahitiNut]

125. Chew on this: The market value of a capital asset (production asset) is primarily based ...

... on the availability of labor, and it increases as the cost of labor decreases. (In other words, fucking labor can increase the 'value' of that asset.) This is the "zero-sum game" played by too many 'investors' - pump and dump and arbitrage predators. The market value of a cotton field is zilch where there's NOBODY willing to work the field. (That's why we traffic in human labor.) Ship machinery to China and it's market value increases ... because of the cheap labor. Thus, the value - and capital gain - comes from the labor of others. Even the legal system and its enforcement that creates title in that asset is a result of the efforts of an entire nation. That's what narrow entitlements - privileges - are all about.

You're arguing "trickle down" economics on a progressive forum. Buy yourself a clue.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

203. Thank you.

I can't believe how often I see this trickle down garbage here. Micheal freaking Deaver even admitted it was a pile of voodoo crap a few years ago. The highest level of income growth and relative prosperity in US history was during the post WW2 era of "confiscatory" tax rates.

[woolldog]

236. complete and utter garbage.

[grantcart]

223. It really depends on what your getting for the increase.

If an increase in the capital gains were, for example, to implement a radical lessening of the cost to business by reducing their contribution to health costs and gave them a firm ceiling of those costs in the future, it would be very beneficial to business.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

238. Or help rebuild infrastructure and improve education...

Of course, since so many industries have moved overseas that may not be a consideration to our low capital gains tax fans. :(

[Joe the Revelator]

120. Thats an absurd premise you're pushing

and I agree, this is part of Obama's platform that I do not like at all.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

240. Would you rather see income or sales taxes raised?

Who would that hurt more?

[GoldieAZ49]

285. Neither

They can stop wasting our money, pass the line item veto and eliminate pork barrel spending

[anonymous171]

2. lol

[Spider Jerusalem]

3. The capital gains tax hits the 'investor class' much harder.

The Republicans shouldn't have lowered it in the first place. And in case you haven't noticed, we're running record budget deficits. If revenue shortfall isn't to be made up by sensible taxation, then how would you propose it be done?

[woolldog]

5. It hits everyone who owns stock.

and discourages investment.

[ossman]

8. Bullshit. Having no money discourages investing. Not the future taxes I might have to pay.

[aquarius dawning]

54. Then create some fucking jobs but don't rob Peter to pay Paul.

[MattBaggins]

69. damn straight

rob paul to pay peter.

[ZombieHorde]

174. rob Peter to pay Paul

Isn't that what universal health care is?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

163. Most working people who have stock have it in 401ks and IRAs

Capital gains don't even enter into the picture. That money is taxed at your ordinary income rate when you take it out. Maybe lowering retirement distributions or eliminating penalties for early withdrawal will encourage investment among working people but a small increase in capital gains won't have much impact.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

235. uh the stock market has taken a gigantic dive lately, no one wants to get IN

its been as bad as the stock market crash on 911 if not worse, because
there is NO end in site.

That's the cry of the GOP - omg we need to
keep our tax cuts for the rich.

Well screw that.

[Gman]

10. That just puts more of the tax burden on the middle class' back

they don't need more.

The best idea to balance the budget is to 1) GTF out of Iraq. The budget will see a tremendous improvement. 2) Negotiate medicare drug costs with the drug makers. 3) raise the percent tax on the top earners. 4) raise corporate taxes. I don't have figures, but these are no brainers.

[woolldog]

18. The middle class owns stock too.

Much more now than ever before. It will hit the middle class as well as poor people who own stock.

[thunder rising]

30. Get a clue! The poor own stock and real estate ... I've heard it all now!

[woolldog]

41. when I was a student I was poor and owned some stock

b/c I had scrimped and saved and invested. Sometimes I had to sell a little stock to make ends meet.

[catnhatnh]

58. Yep...I heard that one before...

I came from a poor family-my mom and dad were poor, our maid and butler were poor, the cook and chauffeur were poor....

[aquarius dawning]

63. Bitterness revealed.

[woolldog]

65. n/t

[catnhatnh]

146. Jeepers....

No wonder you got a thousand posts...and thanks for the insight.

[quakerboy]

157. Yup. I had friends who had stock in college too

I have as yet to meet anyone truly Poor who owned stock. Ive known people who were not wealthy who had stock, but never a truly poor person.

[GoldieAZ49]

198. That is why the are called MIDDLE CLASS

they are not wealthy and they are not poor

and they do not need to be overtaxed!

[quakerboy]

214. How does France

or Canada or the rest of the civilized world deal with this topic?

Are they over-taxed, for what they get?

In the mean time, I prefer to disagree with John McCain, GW, Cato, et al. than to agree with them. Particularly on issues of Taxation. Progressive taxation, not regressive. Reinforcing the mistakes of yesterday, to the overwhelming benefit of the far upper income is not a good idea. The middle class, which I think I may just barely sneak into the bottom of, will benefit more from the renewed taxes on the Uberwealthy more than they will suffer from the occasional personal loss to slightly higher taxes.

I am young. I will, assuming the next president manages to restore the base for the economy to rebuild on, continue to make more money each year for some time to come. I will own more, and likely at some point in the next 10 years, the Capitol Gains Tax will come to actually have a more than minute effect on me personally. It is worth it, however, to pay a higher rate on it, and retain at least the possibility of rebuilding some part of our crumbling infrastructure, or educate the next generation. Or, dare I say it, even contemplate a real health care plan for all. But Cutting taxes most on those who have the most will not get us there.

[GoldieAZ49]

220. they are extremely overtaxed

My friend in France likes the black market there because it is tax free

Capitol Gains Tax has an effect on those of us that have worked since we were young like you and will vote not to be overtaxed on it until it effects you personally.

Not being so self centered might be a good place for you to start.

[quakerboy]

226. Um.. Yeah. Read yourself

"Not being so self centered might be a good place for you to start."

But your whole point is "I will be overtaxed, and so I dont want it". The very definition of Self Centered. My argument is that you are being short sightedly self centered, because in the long run the benefit to each of us will be more than the loss to each of us. That said, I am a survivor type, and even if things go very far off course, I have every expectation that I will do better than the average. But I want more than just "good for me". I want good for us all. So even if it were to cost me personaly, I would favor the better course.

And as to your friend in France... I have very off friends who shop at Walmart. Doesn't mean that Walmart goods are worker friendly, nor that France is overtaxed.

[GoldieAZ49]

233. It is "good for us" to not overtax the middle class

do that and their will only be the very rich and the poor

I want our economy to be viable for everyone, so the poor can become the middle class and the middle class can become upper middle or wealthy.

[woolldog]

239. quakerboy, the CGT is actually a barrier to social and economic mobility

If you're well-off alread, come from a well to do family, have a great income etc it will effect you, but it won't be a burden on you. If you're trying to move from middle class to upper middle class, to build wealth for yourself or your offspring, it will hurt. It will be a bigger burden. And it will diminish your returns substantially.

That's the whole premise behind investment vehicles like RothIRA and 401k. They are great becaues they allow tax free/tax deferred compound returns, which is the best way to build wealth.

[quakerboy]

243. I will ask again

how do the civilized countries deal with this topic? Say, the Nordic ones? I honestly do not know.

I will admit, this is not something I have put great amounts of time toward. But given that when I do a search on the topic, the results that seem most aligned with your position in this seem to be RW/libertarian think tanks, I am inclined not to agree. Convince me that this is not just another tax break primarily for the rich, with a pittance for the "working man" to make us think its good for us.

[woolldog]

247. Likely their tax is quite high.

Then again, they don't have near the same economic mobility as in the U.S. It is almost impossible for someone in the middle classes to build wealth and pass it on to their family. In large part that's because of their high tax burdens.

Increasing the CGT to European levels would just put up more barriers to economic mobility for middle class Americans. (another barrier, for example, is the high cost of decent education in America....)

[quakerboy]

256. But keeping the tax low

allows a few people to retain a far greater amount of wealth. Sure, some few may move up to join them, but most head the other way, especially of late. How does that help.

nd the handing down of wealth to ones family is not a huge goal in my world view. Again, most people don't really get much of anything other than personal items there anyway. Again, especialy at this time, the things that used to be handed down no longer are. The house is usually morgaged or sold prior to death to pay for residential care. the only ones passing wealth in any appreciable amount are the rich. And at that level, even if you cut into it significantly, there is still more than a reasonable amount to pass on.

So, as I see it, there is more to be gained in having and using those tax dollars to ensure that the majority of the Middle Class retains the ability to remain Middle class, than there is for a small few to be upwardly mobile. As I look at it, I do not know a single resident of France, Canada, the UK, Denmark, etc who would rather live (visit, sure, but not live) in our system. Even given their higher taxes.

I would agree with your argument if the money were going to be devotedly fed to the defense industry and military contractors. Or if they planned to have big money burning partys on the front lawn of the WH. But if it were to be used to support social services, to better our education system or rebuild our public infrastructure, or even pay off some of this rediculous debt, then I see it having more benefit for more people. Its not going to just vanish and be a net loss to us. At least, not if we elect the right people.

[muriel_volestrangler]

278. No, US economic mobility is lower than most European countries

These findings are more striking when put in
comparative context. There is little available evidence
that the United States has more relative mobility than
other advanced nations. If anything, the data seem to
suggest the opposite. Using the relationship between
parents’ and children’s incomes as an indicator of
relative mobility, data show that a number of countries,
including Denmark, Norway, Finland, Canada, Sweden,
Germany, and France have more relative mobility than
does the United States (see Figure 3).12
Compared to the same peer group, Germany is 1.5
times more mobile than the United States, Canada
nearly 2.5 times more mobile, and Denmark 3 times
more mobile. Only the United Kingdom has relative
mobility levels on par with those of the United States.
To be sure, analyzing the relationship between parents’
and children’s incomes is but one way of defining
relative mobility from one generation to the next. The
full story may be more complicated, and the Economic
Mobility Project intends to further investigate relative
mobility using additional measurement and analysis.

http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP%20American%20Dream%20Report.pdf

Why do those countries have more economic mobility than the US? Difficult to say, but it may be because of cheaper (or free) higher education in those countries. Anyway, tgeir CGT regimes don't seem to be a particular problem for it.

[quakerboy]

295. Thank you very much

That is rather what I expected. This really sounded like a RW meme that was unfortunately swallowed whole by some who otherwise know better.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

288. And Roths and 401ks don't pay capital gains tax so I don't get what your point is.

That's where most middle class Americans have their investments, if they have any at all.

[muriel_volestrangler]

276. This Wikipedia article looks fairly accurate on the current UK capital gains tax

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax#United_Kingdom

Though the new proposals it mentions at the bottom are a bit hazy (and that reflects reality, I think).

Basically, your (first) home doesn't count as a capital gain (but a second one, or one you rent out, would); there's a personal allowance of £9200 per year (when the gain is realised by selling the asset - gains on paper don't count) before the tax starts; and then (under the current system) the gain is taxed at your top income tax rate. In practice, this means only the rich pay the tax; or those who are selling a business they've built up. Those in the latter category may not be really 'rich', and that seems to be where the UK controversy is - whether the proposed changes will hurt them.

[TLM]

218. Sell a little stock to make ends meet....

LOL!!!!

If you are selling stocks, you don't know the meaning of making ends meet.


Talk to me when you're out of food and low on gas and your next paycheck is a week away.... and you DON'T have stocks to cash in.


Yeah all across america the poor and impoverished are forced to cash in their stocks and bonds to buy ramen noodles.

Are you fucking kidding me?


Just like the "death tax" was destroying family farms?

I issue the same smell test.... if the 15% tax didn't kick in until after the first $10,000 of profit, would you still be against it?

[woolldog]

230. My preference would be to abolish the capital gains tax altogether

If that's not possible then for individuals with incomes under 100K.

My problem with the capital gains tax and the estate tax is the double taxation element. It gives the government two bites at the same apple. I don't support that.

[Justitia]

258. Wrong - capital gains tax is NOT "double taxation", you are only taxed on the gain.

Hence the name "capital gains tax".

Estate taxes are not double taxation either, as the party receiving the asset has NEVER paid taxes on it, hence the name "estate", not to mention that the vast majority are entirely exempt.

The "double taxation" meme is a RW canard - ask a tax accountant.

[hfojvt]

262. there is also no such thing as a "capital gains tax" AFAIK

capital gains are taxed as part of the income tax, except there's a funky schedule to fill out to tax them at a lower rate than wage income. Contrary to the OP and it's absurd defenders, the primary beneficiaries of these lower rates are the wealthy, by a long long long long long long shot.

[woolldog]

268. No such thing as a capital gains tax??

wtf? Then why do people bother filling out schedule D? I guess just for fun.

[woolldog]

267. No, it's not.

An estate tax is an example of double taxation. You work, save up your money, pay taxes on that money. (taxed once). Then when you want to transmit it to your heirs, that money is taxed again (taxed twice). That's double taxation.

Dividends as well. The income is taxed once at the corporate level, and then taxed again at the shareholder level. To the extent that your estate includes dividend income, an estate tax on that income would be triple taxation.

[Justitia]

269. You have very fundamental misunderstandings of these taxes.

And taxation in general.

Estate taxes (beyond the massive exemption amount) mostly consist of untaxed capital gains which only become taxable upon transfer of wealth (at death, to the heirs).

Dividends are not "double taxation", they are income which is subject to multiple jurisdictions, just like your real property is subject to multiple jurisdiction and your wage income.

[woolldog]

270. No. I understand taxation just fine.

I was making the point that double taxation can occur with an Estate tax. That "most of the time" the tax applies to untaxed capital gains is irrelevant to that point.

Dividend income is taxed twice, once at the corporate level and again at the shareholder level. You're simply wrong when you argue otherwise.

[Justitia]

271. Explain to me how estate taxes are "double taxation". Estate taxes beyond the massive exemption

tax the income event to the heirs, who have never paid taxes on that money before.

Dividend income is not taxed twice, corporations and shareholders are two completely different legal taxpaying entities.

Under your logic, you would call it "infinite taxation", just like sales tax - i.e., your employer pays taxes, then he pays you wages and you pay tax on that, then you buy something and incur sales tax on the same money again, and whomever you buy from pays tax on the money you gave them, ad infinitum.

Of course, these are all separate legal entities and income events. There is not a single taxpayer paying the same levied tax on the same proceeds to the same jurisdiction.

[woolldog]

273. It doesn't matter that they've never paid taxes before!

That isn't the proper way to analyze it. The estate is made up of aftertax money. When it is transmitted to the heirs and taxes are again paid on it, the money is coming out of the estate. There is a dimunition of wealth and value of the estate. The government is getting two bites at the same apple.

Dividend income has been taxed twice. Shareholder are owners of the corporation and have a right to it's profits. So money that the corporation pays in taxes comes out of their pockets as it diminishes their profits. Let's say I am sole shareholder of a corporation. My corp earns $100 pretax. That $100 belongs entirely to me. Assume a %30 corp tax, there is now $70 left.

If I take a distribution in the form of a dividend, and I pay tax on that dividend as ordinary income:

Assuming I'm at a marginal rate of 35%, I pay $24.50 and am left with $45.50. I have paid $54.50 in taxes on $100 of profit.

[Justitia]

275. OK, here is a question for the "Practice" part of your exam....

At what point does the State have a recognizable (in the tax liability sense of the word) interest in the estate? And when does that change from a "recognized" to a "realized" event?

There's your answer. And it's not a politically, ideologically driven one.

Apply the same question to the economic event affecting the income stmt of a corporation AND the owners equity stmt in re: to dividends AND the income stmt.

Once recorded, when are these events realized?

Therein lies the answer to federal taxation.

[bighart]

42. How many of the employees of companies like Wal-Mart and Target

do you suppose buy stock because of the company match? I would venture to say it is at least 25%, don't have any stats to back that up, and they will be hit hard by a raise in capitol gains taxes and YES THEY ARE THE WORKING POOR>

[woolldog]

excellent point

[TLM]

219. IRAs 401ks and retirement plans...

don't fall under CG tax.

[tkmorris]

251. 25% of Walmart employees buy their stock?

Have you completely lost your mind?

Store Managers and above, maybe. MAYBE. Anyone below that you can forget about, and believe me far more than 75% are below that.

Some of you people arguing for a CGT cut are so out of touch with reality it boggles the mind. I would not argue for too large an increase in the tax because in one sense at least you are correct: too large of a decrease in investment will hurt all of us. However making the argument that it is the middle class who are hurt most by the tax is just insulting.

[bighart]

309. Sorry you are incorrect about that.

I worked as a manager for Wal-Mart and the average as I recall was around 40% of HOURLY store employees buy stock. They even used to have elections in the store every year to determine which of the HOURLY employees would represent the store at the annual stock holders meeting, the only requirement was that you had to purchase stock as a payroll deduction to qualify if you wanted the chance to go. This 401 K or profit sharing participation did not count to qualify for the chance to go, only stock purchase via payroll deduction.

[bighart]

310. I just checked and found the following

706,389 hourly associates purchase stock via payroll deduction.

[aquarius dawning]

57. The middle class does.

[aquarius dawning]

14. yesterday's investor class is today's working class. this hurts a lot of good middle class people.

who worked their asses off to build a nest egg. The true elitists will just find ways around it like they always do. This is a terrible idea and will further stifle investment which will further exacerbate our economic problems.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

175. "Nest eggs" are most often IRAs and 401ks, which pay ordinary income tax upon distribution

Unless they are Roths (pre-tax contributions and tax free distributions). Capital gains, for the most part, do not impact people who aren't in the investor class.

[aquarius dawning]

193. They impact me and many of my friends and family.

and I guarantee, if I'm gonna get hit by this shit,a lot of other middle class folks will too and that doesn't even address the issue of kicking the stock market in the nuts when its already laying on the ground beaten and broken.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

194. If the stock market is "kicked in the nuts" (nice sexist term there BTW Hillbot)

Then people aren't going to be making much profit off of it, hence little need to worry about capital gains, non?

[GoldieAZ49]

199. We want the stock market profitable

So people can make money and build a nest egg, or retirement fund

[woolldog]

242. And also because it means that American companies are doing well

which is good for the economy, provides jobs, and so on...

[GoldieAZ49]

246. absolutely correct nt

[hfojvt]

264. maybe upper middle class folks

and I guarantee you that the major beneficiaries of a lower tax rate on capital gains are the rich and the very rich.

[knixphan]

78. Amen.

[Joe the Revelator]

121. Everybody should be in the "investor class"

It doesn't take a fortune to be able to invest, and its the best way to get beyond a insufficient pay check.

[GoldieAZ49]

201. and be able to retire.........Agreed!

[NJSecularist]

4. Both support repealing the 2003 Bush tax cuts.

Which would raise the capital gains tax back to its original tax bracket before the Bush tax cuts. It would be 28% under Obama and 24% under Hillary.

[UALRBSofL]

81. Actually Obama was talking of raising the Capital Gains Tax

to either 35% to 40%. So, what that means to me is, don't sell your house or almost half will go into tax's. I think CGT's should be lowered.

[NJSecularist]

96. Link?

As far as I know, he is proposing to raise the capital gains tax to only 28%.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2007/9/19/obama-pushes-for-higher-investment-taxes.html

[Justitia]

260. What crap - a capital gains tax higher than ordinary income, LOL.

And then the "selling your house" situation - laughable.

If you live in your house for 2 yrs, you're exempt.

[UALRBSofL]

287. You are not exempt from capital gains tax when you sell your tax

You pay CGT regardless of how long you live in it. That said, please supply your reliable link to your questionable post.

[Justitia]

299. You mean your "house"? Are you saying you aren't aware of the home selling exemptions? -eom

[ieoeja]

301. Your link.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/industries/article/0,,id=98921,00.html

[keep_it_real]

6. I think he said he would consider a graduated capital gains tax

Which is really the way to go. People making under $75.000 should have the lowest and people who make over a million or more the highest. Some people use capital gains as yearly income.

[quakerboy]

161. That makes more sense

[aquarius dawning]

7. As I like to say, yesterday's working class is today's investor class.

This is no simple and harmless Robin Hood plan, it's an economic disaster waiting to happen.

[woolldog]

12. I think Goolsbee may be a positive influence on his economic policy...

[amandabeech]

71. I REALLY think that you'd feel more at home with Puke econ policy.

And so would Goolsbee and his Chicago buddies.

For the life of me, I can't understand what a poor, community organizer is doing with that crowd.

[catnhatnh]

113. Tennyson...Northern Farmer Old Style....

Marry ye not for money
but go ye where the money is
for is it not as easy
to marry a rich girl
as a poor one?

[amandabeech]

291. Yes, but Krugman is rich also.

I assume that he has friends.

[Gman]

17. Not at all true

Not in the least bit true. Most small investors do it through company 401K's and company stock. They never were and never will be investor class.

[cali]

31. bwahahahaha

I grew up in New Canaan, CT and Fairfield County is still where my Mother and 3 of my siblings live. Please don't tell me there's no investor class. There sure as fuck is.

[Gman]

66. Get your eyes checked then reread my post

if you still don't understand it, you may just want to sit this discussion out.

[aquarius dawning]

38. It depends on what you define investor class as I suppose.

I'm not talking about the WarrenBuffets. I'm talking about people with nest eggs invested in mutual funds and stock. I am one of these people and I know plenty of other middle classers who are very uncomfortable with any talk of taxing theri capital gains especially after the past few months when they've watched their investments lose tens of thousands of dollars and their homes depreciate bythe same. Anybody who thinks that stifling investment is a good idea needs to go back to school and retake economics.

[Gman]

112. I'm one of those too

and I don't like what I see in the economy and I really don't like a Democrat out there advocating raising the capital gains tax.

[catnhatnh]

115. But mutual funds and stocks....

are taxed differently, right? As are retirement accounts and IRA's, correct?

[aquarius dawning]

130. You still pay CGTs on IRAs. It's just delayed and prolonged.

401Ks pay CGTs too it's just that your employer matches your contributions. If you invest in something and make money off of it, you are going to pay CGTs be it gold coins, stocks, mutual funds, bonds, a house, land, interest from a savings account or money market, etc. Municipal bonds are frequently tax exempt but their yields often barely keep up with inflation. Then on top of that, here in Ohio, I have to pay CGT at the state and local level too. If it gets much harder to make a buck in America, people are going to start buying gold boullion and storing it in their mattresses and then we're all fucked.

[Justitia]

259. You DO NOT pay capital gains tax on 401ks or IRAs or interest on a savings acct!

And good lord, the tax treatment is completely different on all those other things you listed.

Please, do me a favor and don't give out any tax advice.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

241. IF YOU'RE LOSING MONEY IN THE STOCK OR REAL ESTATE MARKET YOU WON'T PAY CAPITAL GAINS!!!!

Jesus Christ on a crutch, what is so hard to understand about that? If the market is going gangbusters, you can afford to pay a little more.

Oh I know, it's so much better to lay our national debt on poor working saps with no extra money for investment (and their heirs). Real progressive attitude there, asshats.

[MannyGoldstein]

19. Actually, Yesterday's Working Class Is Today's Working Poor

The Middle Class has been economically sodomized for 30 years.

It's time to stop.

[aquarius dawning]

45. Not all of them, I assure you. Taxing capital gains hurts everybody, not just the wealthy.

If you want to see a recession turn into a full blown depression, go ahead and start stifling investment in the US stock market.

[MannyGoldstein]

48. Any Tax Hurts People

Are you suggesting that we don't have taxes?

The Rich must pay their fair share. The rich "earn" most of their money from capital gains. Therefore, the capital gains tax must be at a rate such that the rich pay their fair share. The rich do not pay their fair share now.

Therefore, we need to increase the capital gains tax.

[aquarius dawning]

62. Repeal the tax cuts then but leave the stock market alone. Increase luxury taxes but leave the

market alone. This will turn out bad for everybody, even the people who don't have a penny in the stock market.

[MannyGoldstein]

68. It Was Fine In The Past

What's different now?

[aquarius dawning]

86. yesterday's solutions don't always solve today's problems.

Today's stock market is collapsing, it doesn't need Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton jumping on its back and exacerbating its problems. You want to help poor people, create some damn jobs and invest in sensible education. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is the worst solution you could have come up with.

[MannyGoldstein]

103. So Let's Tax The Rich Fairly

And use the revenues to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure. That will create jobs, and benefit all of us.

[aquarius dawning]

132. Just do it carefully and thoughtfully lest your good intentions pave the road to hell.

[catnhatnh]

117. Yeah....

because all the smart money (GM, GE, and GEE it's cheaper over there) are building industrial plants here, right?

[quakerboy]

167. Maintaining yesterdays mistakes sure as hell

won't solve todays problems.

[Lyric]

9. One of the things I completely agree with Obama on. Good for him.

:hi:

[aquarius dawning]

20. It's a terrible idea whichserves no good purpose other than to punish people who don't deserve it

Furthermore, it's pure Marxism and will lead to massive amounts of support for McCain when the time comes.

[Lyric]

43. Oh bull. If people have enough money that they are hit with capital gains

then they aren't hurting THAT badly. However, a lot of people out here ARE hurting--and the government helps them survive. The money for food stamps, schools, health departments and HUD doesn't come from thin air, you know. I think capital gains tax SHOULD be raised--it's ridiculous to assert that only the poor should have to suffer from a soft economy. The middle and upper classes belong to this country too, and they can handle hard times better than those of us who literally have nothing to fall back on. Losing money on a house is bad--not HAVING a house to lose money on is worse.

Does capital gains apply to withdrawals from IRAs and such? If so, then I think that an exception should be granted in that instance.

I am also open to the notion of increasing the amount at which capital gains kicks in, for whatever that's worth.

[aquarius dawning]

53. It isn't bull. this is pure Marxism and it will hurt the middle class more than the investor class.

This will kill the US economy faster than you can say great depression. Stifling investment in the stock market is a bad idea for the entire country especially considering the blows that the market has suffered in the past few months. This will finish off what the sub-prime crisis started.

[Lyric]

61. No, it won't.

The re-adjustment after the inflated housing bubble burst is going to be painful, but those poor souls who are forced to pay capital gains tax aren't going to be hurting NEARLY as badly as the working class that holds the rest of the nation up. Forgive me, but as a poor person living in a trailer park and attending college with the threat of student loan cuts hanging over my head, I just can't seem to summon up much pity for the poor, downtrodden investor class.

[aquarius dawning]

82. Don't rob Peter to pay Paul. Don't stifle investment.

10 years ago, I was where you are now. I spent 8 years in the Army and I worked my ass off in school and now I am that middle class person who owns stock and mutual funds and I pay attenton to these economic things very carefully. Taxing investors will hurt the US economy, not help it and there is strong potential for any US depression to have major global implications. The market is barely standing right now. People are losing their nest eggs every day. The true investor class is already pulling out of America and looking at the emerging markets like China and India and Dubai,and even Russia. If the Stock market does crash, which many of know is a real possibility, this country will be in for a world of hurt and if the Democratic party is responsible for the straw that broke the camels back, we'll be held accountable forever.

[Cassandra]

97. Investors are looking to emerging markets because...

they offer a much greater return than the US, which is a mature market. This is because of excessive greed (and a lack of concern about America), not because of concerns about our stock market (the current troubles are very recent; investment has been fleeing the country for years).
I really wonder about posters who push right wing talking points; you sound like Poppy Bush.

[GoldieAZ49]

202. absolutely correct

There will be no middle class left if they are over taxed.

I will not vote for it. If they cut the BS spending in congress there will be a surplus.

[dysfunctional press]

207. only if by "BS spending" you are reffering to the defense budget.

there's not too much else left to cut.

[GoldieAZ49]

217. all the 'earmarks' congress spends

kick backs is the right name for it

[dysfunctional press]

281. add them up, and get back to me with the total...

it's a lot less than the repug kool-aid factory lets on.

[GoldieAZ49]

286. $18.3 billion worth of earmarks in the fiscal year 2008

Congress disclosed 11,234 earmarks worth $14.8 billion in this year’s spending bills. An additional $3.5 billion worth of earmarks were added with no sponsor identified. The $18.3 billion worth of earmarks in the fiscal year 2008 spending bills represents a 23 percent cut in total earmarks from the high water mark of 2005, but a smaller cut than the 50 percent reduction House leadership initially set as its goal.

http://www.taxpayer.net/budget/fy08earmarks/fy08databasemain.html

[dysfunctional press]

292. which is a drop in the bucket, budget-wise.

and not all of them are "wasteful pork"- many of them represent actual jobs in depressed areas.
but either way- 18 billion isn't much, u.s. budget-wise.

[GoldieAZ49]

293. They circumvent merit-based or competitive allocation processes

TCS defines earmarks as legislative provisions that set aside funds within an account for a specific program, project, activity, institution, or location. These measures normally circumvent merit-based or competitive allocation processes and appear in spending, authorization, tax, and tariff bills.


It could pay for health care

[dysfunctional press]

294. no, it couldn't pay for health care. and MUCH MUCH more could be saved by cutting military spending.

the schip program alone is 12 billion- and that's just poor kids.

[taught_me_patience]

107. So wrong

This will hit the investor class much harder than the middle class. Most of the middle class has tax free vehicles at their disposal to avoid taxes (roth IRA). The investor class cannot even contribute to a roth... therefore a greater percentage of capital is in taxed accounts.

[aquarius dawning]

138. IRAs avoid the income tax, not the CGT.

This will hit the middle class hard enough that it isn't justified. This is Marxism at it worst.

[taught_me_patience]

147. I'm talking about a roth IRA.

Which I no longer qualifty for because my income is too high. FU gov't!!!

[Justitia]

263. You DO NOT pay capital gains tax on IRAs. -eom

[DeschutesRiver]

137. Just am jumping in to say

I completely agree with what you say, aquarius dawning. And thanks for pointing out this part of his economic platform, which I evidently hadn't studied. Given what is about to happen to this country financially, I can't imagine what he is thinking by endorsing this CGT increase. The timing is horrid to do such a thing.

Yes, this would probably be final coffin nail that guarantees a great depression, not that I am entirely certain we can avoid a depression any longer. But if we do have one, this will deepen it beyond what most people believe possible, since most people alive now on the planet not only haven't lived through one, there are a lot of people who haven't even been in a serious economic downturn in their entire lives.

I had a kid tell me that I was fibbing about holding my first mortgage at 14%, with a small second at 18%. He just blanked out when I told him about lines for gasoline back in the day. Probably wouldn't believe me either if I told who ends up getting "taxed" when we say "tax the rich!!", because it for sure isn't the extreme wealth holders like they expect.

[izzybeans]

305. ha ha I don't remember Marx recommending anything about the Capital Gains Tax

That's a good one.

The stock market is more Marxist, given its a form of public ownership, than a simple tax. It's just Marxism for the wealthy.

[Gman]

105. IRA withdrawals are taxed as ordinary income

not capital gains. You put money into the IRA with pre-tax money, or got the credit off your taxes for making the contribution to the IRA.

[aquarius dawning]

148. I guess you're right come to think of it. I haven't taken any of mine out.

so I don't have to deal with it. I mostly invest through my individual account.

[catnhatnh]

122. No Sir, if we could get full marxism....

...you would be trotted to the wall. But as a DU member I would insist you received the courtesy of a blindfold.The sad part is you are supporting lower taxes for capital than labor.And I could even accept that were my family and friends guaranteed a living wage, and housing, food, and healthcare.But in a system where lack of capital means a shorter, meaner life, your complaints only amuse me.

[lastliberalintexas]

165. LOL

Thanks for the defense of Democratic economic principles cat. I really wonder about some of these posters- this thread reads like an article from The Onion.

[aquarius dawning]

170. You would find that I wouldn't go peacefully.

I have spent 6 1/2 years in college and 8 years in the infantry. I've labored in those jobs that no American will do. I have performed work that was humiliating, dehumanizing, and back breaking. I have been a union member. My family is all union and have always been staunch Democrats. I'm an RN now who takes care of the sick and the infirm and the elderly. I worked my ass off to get where I am. I've paid my dues. I have earned the right to enjoy the fruits of my labor. It's my money, my sweat, and my tears, not yours. And that you would even consider standing me up against the wall is beyond insulting.

[GoldieAZ49]

206. Damn right! I agree 100%

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[hfojvt]

151. pure marxism?

:nopity: :nopity:

Sheesh, where did all these Republicans come from. Oh, boo hoo hoo, the poor rich people who will have to pay the same rate on their UNearned income as working people have to pay on their earned income. My heart bleeds for them :cry: :cry: :cry:

Actually, that's not even true, since there are ZERO FICA taxes on capital gains income.

[TheDonkey]

11. Hillary will too, so try to educate yourself before you start sliming

It is part of both candidates roll back of the tax cuts for the wealthy.

I do not like the idea of a cap gains raise but it is NECESSARY to pay for this war and our out of control spending. If we want that tax cut we need to end this WAR NOW! Something I think Obama is far more willing to do than Hill.

[Hoof Hearted]

13. Crap. Is that his website or stump position? If it is, that's not a good thing.

That will be like fingernails on a chalkboard in a general election. I hope to God Hillary isn't for raising it either, I'll have to look into that one.

[Gman]

21. See

http://www.nypost.com/seven/03282008/news/nationalnews/barack__id_hike_capital_gains_tax_103875.htm

[MannyGoldstein]

15. I Disagree

The capital gains tax is primarily a haven for the Rich - most of the taxes paid by The Rich are capital gains tax, not earned income tax like (presumably) you and I pay. It's why the wealthiest Americans pay an average of 18% in taxes, while typical Americans pay more than 30%.

It is true that, in some instances, middle class folks pay capital gains. However, if the Rich pay something closer to their fair share, we could cut the earned income tax, or pay down the debt (which we all pay interest on), or fix the infrastructure that we all rely on etc.

If it were up to me, capital gains taxes would be taxed at a higher rate than earned income.

[theoldman]

23. I agree, The rich have tax loop holes to avoid paying any tax

at all.

[woolldog]

27. And what would increasing the capital gains tax do to change that?

Nothing.

[MannyGoldstein]

28. Under Eisenhower, The Wealthiest Americans Averaged A 50% Tax Rate

(And Eisenhower and the Republican-majority Congress wanted it that way.)

Today, only 18%.

Incredible.

[Spider Jerusalem]

33. Under Eisenhower the top bracket was taxed at NINETY-ONE percent.

[MannyGoldstein]

37. Yep. That Was The Highest Marginal Tax Rate

And even the Republicans agreed that this was the right thing to do.

It's incredible how far to the Right our country has moved!

[woolldog]

47. I'd like to see a capital gains tax cut to 10%

[MannyGoldstein]

49. And Have The Rich Pay 13% In Taxes?

Oh goody.

Eisenhower is spinning in his grave. (And GDP growth was quite good when he was president.)

[woolldog]

74. It's not only the rich who have capital gains

[MannyGoldstein]

84. But The Vast Majority Of The Rich's Income Is Capital Gains

While only a tiny percentage of everyone else's.

[aquarius dawning]

134. are you sure about that? let's see your data that supports that theory.

I think you would be surprised to at how many middle class Americans derive sizable portions of their income from their various investments.

[MannyGoldstein]

150. I Don't Have The Time Now, But...

There was a study a few years ago (it's a bitch to find again) by some folks at the IRS that looked at tax rate vs. income in the US. The wealthiest Americans paid about 23% all told (this was when capital gains was 20%), while median income paid a little over 30%. If you work the numbers, this could only be true if the vast bulk of income to the wealthy was capital gains, and the vast bulk to the middle-income folks was earned income.

[woolldog]

231. So what?

[woolldog]

25. That's absolutely crazy.

Talk about discouraging investment and making it harder to raise capital....

[MannyGoldstein]

34. Gee, Under Eisenhower, The Rich Paid 50% Taxes

And capital gains (then called "unearned income") tax rates were higher than for earned income.

I think our country did just fine. Plenty of new businesses were started. Investors invested.

[TahitiNut]

91. Oh, BULLSHIT. A lower capital gains tax doesn't encourage "investment"

... it encourages DIVESTMENT! There is no moral basis for giving discount tax treatment on income received DUE TO THE LABORS OF OTHERS than income from one's OWN LABOR. There's even less justice in taxing the income one receives due to the DEATH of another at a zero rate. It's utter garbage.

Let's try this one on for size: Taxing income from salary and wages at the highest rates of all DISCOURAGES PEOPLE FROM WORKING! The "discourages investment" claim is even more ridiculous than that. Furthermore, less than 1% of the dollar value of trades on the market ever go to the business itself to pay wages or buy equipment. It's a "secondary market." Arguably, only IPOs are actually "investments."

Want to encourage INVESTMENT? Then tax capital gains on assets (NOT derivatives) held less than a year as ordinary income - at the same rate as salary and wages.

On top of that, levy a SALES TAX on the sale or exchange of equities and derivatives. Want favorable tax treatment? Buy federal or municipal bonds.

(Sheesh! What abysmal brainwashed bullshit!)

[woolldog]

136. Yikes!

You're starting to scare me. :scared:

[woolldog]

234. Sure it does.

It lowers the cost (or price)of investment, which increases demand.

[quakerboy]

172. You agree with the Cato Institute

care to rethink that?

[woolldog]

232. A broken clock is right twice a day...

I go by the issues. If the Cato Institute happens to agree with me, good on them. It doesn't affect my position either way.

[Gman]

29. To tax capital gains at a higher rate discourages investment

and affects everyone.

It's not just "some cases" that middle class folks pay capital gains tax. It's in every single case where a middle class person has a capital gain. That includes even selling that second house they bought for an investment down the street but have to sell now to pay medical bills or even keep their homestead.

[Binka]

224. even selling that second house

What fucking planet are you living on? How many ordinary folks can afford one home let alone two? You oughta be a stand up comedian at AEI! Har de har har, you are a complete selfish joke.

[theoldman]

16. There are only two ways that I know when you have to pay

Capital gain tax. One is if you sell a stock at a profit. Another is when you sell your house at a profit. If you buy another house within three years you do not have to pay capital gain tax. In my opinion 15% is low especially for people in a high tax bracket. People in the 10% tax bracket generally do not have any capital gains.

[Gman]

35. Anything considered a capital investment is subject to long term capital gains

tax at 15%. If sold in less than a year it is 35%.

[catnhatnh]

72. Absolutely correct....

Capital gains did hit my family....my dad and my brother bought granddads house when grandma moved in with dad to give her a cash flow...they then rented out the house to family members at near cost.And they did take a hit when they sold it even below market value to a relative ten years later.But even back then they got to keep nearly two thirds of their profit.

[haymakeragain]

22. Let's just get rid of all taxes and borrow everything we need.

How stupid. Pull your head out of your arse you desperate Hillarian tool.

[WinkyDink]

24. Somehow I've never put together the terms "working-class stiff" and "stock".

I think the former needs to be further defined here.

[thunder rising]

26. Capital gains are income ... 'nuf said. If you have trouble with your taxes get a better accountant

[Gman]

36. No, capital gains are NOT income

otherwise it would be taxed as income. There's a difference.

[taught_me_patience]

108. Then why do they increase AGI?

Short term capital gains is treated as income.

[Gman]

149. You show the gain in the AGI

and on schedule D. Then use the schedule D tax worksheet to calculate the taxes on the gain. Then (I believe because when it gets like this, I have someone do it for me), you add that to the amount from the tax tables for ordinary income.

[lastliberalintexas]

169. Yes, they are

In fact, they are UNEARNED income, less deserving of favorable tax treatment than earned income. You and others on this thread fucking sound like Steve Forbes. Talk about feeling like you woke up in the Twilight Zone.

[Gman]

191. Ok... get technical!

capital gains are not ORDINARY income. Yes, they are income.

[GoldieAZ49]

213. the investments I make is with money I EARNED

neither the government or you are entitled to it

you want more money get a job and save and invest, its the American way


you do not have the right to be guaranteed anything at the expense of someone else

[johnnydrama]

32. and I get hurt

When the bridge i'm on collapses and I die, because we don't have enough money to pay for infrastructure.

[Gman]

39. GTF out of Iraq

and there will be plenty of money.

[democrattotheend]

40. Why should unearned income be taxed at a lower rate than earned income?

That's the current policy, and i think it's despicable. Why should people pay less in taxes on money they get just for owning and selling a piece of paper than they get for the hours they toil away at work? Rich people often make a lot of their money through investments, while working class people tend to earn most of their money through work without having large amounts to invest. I am not knocking investing (I play the stock market myself), but I think taxes on income affect the working and middle class more than the capital gains tax. I'd like to see the government help the middle class by cutting the payroll tax, which Obama has sort of proposed (he's proposing a payroll tax rebate, which is not as good as cutting the tax, but it's still an improvement). The payroll tax hits working and middle class people a lot harder than the capital gains tax.

[Gman]

50. The Capital Gains Tax applies to much more than just stock including:

Stocks or bonds held in your personal account, a house owned and used by you and your family, household furnishings, a car used for pleasure or commuting, coin or stamp collections, gems and jewelry, and gold, silver, or any other metal. In fact, any property you own is a capital asset and subject to the capital gains tax.

[aein]

83. huh

Primary residences get an exemption, 75k?. Gems/jewelry/gold/silver are subject, under current law to a higher capital gains rate already. Most stocks held by middle-class people are held in tax-deferred accounts, that are taxed as ordinary income when withdrawn.

[catnhatnh]

85. Give me a break...

What NORMAL "household furnishings" or "cars used for pleasure" appreciate in value? You are being disingenious and mean antiques and classic cars that you sell for a profit-and imply you mean bunk beds and Ford Focuses...Capital gains means you made money on it and there are roll over provisions as you well know.

[Gman]

99. I copied and pasted that from IRS Publication 550

Here: http://www.irs.gov/publications/p550/index.html

Under "Capital Gains and Losses", click on the "Capital or Ordinary Gain or Loss" link. It starts with: "For the most part, everything you own and use for personal purposes, pleasure, or investment is a capital asset."

There's no dishonesty here.

[Justitia]

265. A capital asset is not the same thing as a capital gain. Get your accntng terms straight. -eom

[Gman]

280. Of course not

But when you sell the capital asset for a profit, you have a capital gain which is subject to the CGT. And the General Journal entries end up on the balance sheet, not to be confused with the net of income against expense.

[Ichingcarpenter]

51. Gamblers pay 30% and they want less than 15% ?

The market is gambling.

[woolldog]

59. I did my taxes yesterday and had a large capital loss

:(

[TheDonkey]

77. Who cares is the dollar is in the dumps, stock market a mess, housing crisis wiping people out, gas

prices soaring. We've got low cap gain tax rates!!!

O wait... the economy is in the dumps :(

[GoldieAZ49]

216. because we already paid taxes on the earned income used to make the investment

taxed coming and going and all points in between so the government can fund bullshit? NO!

[Justitia]

266. You have paid NOTHING on the unearned income (sales price less basis) until you sell. -eom

[blonndee]

44. This isn't even applicable to "working class stiffs," if you'll be honest.

FIRST ON CNBC INTERVIEW: CNBC TRANSCRIPT: CNBC'S MARIA BARTIROMO SPEAKS WITH SENATOR BARACK OBAMA

WHEN: TODAY, MARCH 27TH AT 3PM-5PM ET

WHERE: CNBC'S "CLOSING BELL"
<snip>
BARTIROMO: I want to ask you about the mortgage plan.

Sen. OBAMA: Sure.

BARTIROMO: But since you ended with taxes, let me pick up right there, for investors.

<snip>

BARTIROMO: But it's not just the Warren Buffets of the world who own stocks, so...

Sen. OBAMA: Of course not.

BARTIROMO: ...let's hypothetically say that...

Sen. OBAMA: Right.

BARTIROMO: ...cap gains tax goes from 15 percent to 25 percent.

Sen. OBAMA: Right.

BARTIROMO: You're impacting a lot of people.

Sen. OBAMA: Right.

BARTIROMO: A hundred million Americans own stocks today.

Sen. OBAMA: Absolutely.

BARTIROMO: So it's not just the rich.

Sen. OBAMA: No, no, no, absolutely. And that's why I think that it may be, for example, that you could structure something in which people with certain incomes were exempted from this increase and it would stay at 15. The broader principle that I'm interested in is just making sure that we've got a tax code that is fair for all Americans. And I think it is not unreasonable to say--you know, I know that we'll get some arguments from some folks on this, but it's not unreasonable to say that those of us in the upper brackets have benefited disproportionately from a globalized economy; that those benefits have been compounded by the Bush tax cuts and that for us to roll back some of those tax cuts and to put this economy on a more stable fiscal footing and to make investments in the American people so that they can afford a decent life, that that is actually good long term for our economy and also good for investors and Wall Street.

BARTIROMO: So what about the top marginal rate for ordinary income? Who ought to pay more and who should pay less?

Sen. OBAMA: Well, you know, what I've said is that we should go back to probably a top marginal rate of 39 percent what it was before the Bush tax cuts. So I would roll back those Bush tax cuts, I would not increase taxes for middle class Americans and in fact I want to provide a tax cut for people who are making $75,000 a year or less. For those folks, I want an offset on the payroll tax that would be worth as much as $1,000 for a family. Senior citizens who are bringing in less than $50,000 a year in income, I don't want them to have to pay income tax on their Social Security. And as part of my overall approach to housing, I actually want to provide an additional 10 percent mortgage deduction, a credit, mortgage interest credit, for those who currently don't itemize. Because if you live in a house that's pretty expensive, like I do, and I itemize, I get a pretty big break from Uncle Sam. If you own a $100,000 house and you're making 65, $75,000 a year, you're not getting that same deduction. I think that they deserve a break as well. That will actually help relieve some of the pressure on homeowners.

transcript of interview at http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Obama_talks_capgains_rate_with_CNBC.html

[Gman]

55. Oh, it is VERY applicable to working stiffs to be VERY honest

if I sell something I own that's a capital asset of mine, I've owned it less than a year and I make a profit, I get popped for up to 35%. More than a year and it's 15%. If I'm trying to keep my house, that's a real screwing I get.

[blonndee]

73. But you said it's a concern for "working class stiffs," which Obama's

recent conversation contradicts.

[Gman]

90. That's the whole issue here.. Obama is nothing but contradictions

[blonndee]

95. How so, specifically?

[Ichingcarpenter]

46. I'm sick of Trillion dollar rescues for Wall Street Gamblers

30% is what you pay to the IRS for gambling profits or capital gains.

Wall Street is gambling too.

[catnhatnh]

52. Total nonsense....

No working person is taxed at as low a rate (15%) (if you include both income tax and SS).If you sell it it is not a "paper gain" unless you reinvest elsewhere. "Consider the source"....perhaps I am "bitter" but unlike original poster,I don't write off a portion of the electorate because they have no stock portfolio.And you slam Obama but simply claim you "don't know" Hillary's position (right).Then having slammed those not worried about capital gains BECAUSE they have no capital, you label them as "trust fund" elitists....This reminds me of a Steely Dan album...it was labeled "Pretzel Logic"....

[Gman]

60. You apparently never had to read Publication 550 from the IRS, did you?

because, that's not how it works.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goldcanyonaz]

64. But, I live with my Mommy and I don't pay any taxes. GOBAMA!!

[Telly Savalas]

190. I work at a job.

The money I make from my work is taxed at a higher rate than the taxes you pay for selling things at higher prices than you bought them.

Perhaps if you worked for a living you'd understand why some of us think this is unfair.

[rucky]

67. Paging Grover Norquist...

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Table 5: Concentration of stock ownership by wealth class in the United States, 2001
Percent of households owning stocks worth:
Wealth class More than $0 More than $5,000 More than $10,000
Top 1% 95.0% 94.8% 94.1%
95-99% 93.7% 93.2% 92.5%
90-95% 89.3% 88.2% 87.4%
80-90% 79.8% 76.2% 74.3%
60-80% 69.0% 61.3% 55.1%
40-60% 48.9% 37.6% 31.0%
20-40% 35.5% 16.0% 8.9%
Bottom 20% 20.7% 4.7% 2.5%
TOTAL 51.9% 40.6% 35.9%

Wealth class Percent of all stock owned
Top 1% 33.5%
Next 19% 55.8%
Bottom 80% 10.7%


lying or stupid?

[Ichingcarpenter]

76. Totally debunked the OP ....... Great Job!

More Reagan economics from the Hillary side .

[aquarius dawning]

92. Bill balanced the budget, created jobs, and led us through 8 years of general prosperity.

The Clintons are not supply siders.

[catnhatnh]

131. So show me the part

where he thought capital gains taxes were wrong?

[Gman]

102. Just what does that have to do with some working person selling what they own

to pay medical bills or to keep their house?? Or to pay medical bills for someone's wife who has terminal cancer and her insurance got canceled and she needs her chemo? They sure could use that 15%, couldn't they? Or would you rather hit them for 28%? More?

Furthermore, you must think capital gains tax = only a tax on stock investments. Absolutely not true. It is much more than that. I suggest you educate yourself. Obama is wrong on this and it will cost the country dearly when McCain gets elected.

[Ichingcarpenter]

106. You put nothing in your equation on income in relationship to capital gains

I found your 'across the board ' capital gains statement too simplistic.

Simple......... If you make over a certain amount of money a year
you pay an increasing tax. You advocate across the board in your OP.

[Gman]

110. I think you're referring to Post #1

by woolldog. I never made the "across the board" statement in the OP.

In any event, I'm not trying to rewrite the tax code. I'm just saying that as it is now, working class people with a few investments get screwed.

[Ichingcarpenter]

118. "All working people win when capital gains tax gets cut."

That is pretty broad paint brush analysis without looking into the tax code

The TAX Code is what you are looking at.

Then you want to make a simplistic faux wedge issue without intellectual
analysis

FAIL

[Gman]

123. Most of my remarks pertained to what is contained in IRS Pub 550

but, cutting capital gains taxes encourages investments by both the rich and the middle class.

But, it's all relative. A $1500 extra tax on something I made a measly $10,000 profit on, plus the tax on my ordinary income hits me a lot harder than $1500 extra tax for someone wealthy. and if I'm using the now $8,500 proceeds to pay for my wife's chemo or to keep my house, that really stinks because I could sure use that $1500.

[Ichingcarpenter]

144. Your total income is pertinent to the equation

This is why the tax code is important in figuring out the capital gains
I personally know multi millionaires that would love your proposal.

Capital Gains taxes are set up very high after reach a certain tax bracket in
Scandinavian countries and don't affect the middle class.

I have no insurance, in poor health and am poor, but made a little money selling
a house I owned.... but that is another story.

[Gman]

160. I talked to a millionaire today that

contributed the max to Richardson along with each of the 5 adult members of his immediate family. He swears if Obama is nominated he will vote for McCain strictly because of the tax issue. I can't make a rational argument to someone in his tax bracket why he should vote for Obama.

[Ichingcarpenter]

164. This tread is bullshit now

He loses the Millionaire vote.... you just lost it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

282. Here's an argument: "Millionaires shouldn't pay lower rates than non-millionaries"

Voting isn't just a question of working out which candidate keeps your personal tax bill the lowest. I'd have thought anyone contributing to a Democrat would already understand that. If that millionaire is selfish enough to only vote for his personal low taxes, then - meh . Democrats can't promise everyone extra ponies. There isn't a never-ending source of riches to distribute to already rich people.

[rucky]

111. What do your assumptions have to do with anything?

I reject your premise because the scenario you present is a strawman, based on false assmumptions and deliberate ommissions.

[Gman]

126. Whatever...

if you don't care to even enumerate what is a false assumption and deliberate ommission, you contribute nothing here.

[AP]

272. Working people have to sell what they own to pay medical bills because people who make a lot of $

from capital gains are paying half the rate of tax working people pay.


A working person who gets the majority of income from labor pays an effective tax rate of 28%. A CEO who gets a majority of income from dividends and from buying and selling stock acquired through options might pay an effective rate much lower because so much of the income is taxed at 15%.

If the richest in this country are paying half the rate of tax working people are paying, doesn't that explain in part why working people have to sell assets to get health care?

[bigbrother05]

70. From Obama campaign site

His Fiscal Policy: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/fiscal/ObamaPolicy_Fiscal.pdf

-----------------------------

Reverse Bush Tax Cuts for the Wealthy: Obama will protect tax cuts for poor and middle class families,
but he will reverse most of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest taxpayers.

End Tax Haven Abuse: Building on his bipartisan work in the Senate, Obama will give the Treasury Department
the tools it needs to stop the abuse of tax shelters and offshore tax havens and help close the $350
billion tax gap between taxes owed and taxes paid.

Close Special Interest Corporate Loopholes: Obama will level the playing field for all businesses by
eliminating special-interest loopholes and deductions, such as those for the oil and gas industry.

-----------------------------

Didn't see Capital Gains specifically addressed, but it's pretty clear that Obama recognizes the difference between the way W did things and what would actually help the average worker. Making CG progressive or provide exemptions to the 401Ks/IRAs/etc would be fairly easy to do to protect retirement accounts (can easily be tied to types of funds and the contribution limits for them).

One very good idea would be to look at the compensation of the fund managers. The way CG is now structured allows someone to make over $1B per year and pay tax at the 15% rate just because they are paid to invested other people's money. That doesn't make any sense, so things definitely need to change.


BTW the OP's argument is exactly the same tactics used to sell a repeal of the Inheritance Tax. All these claims that the average worker and small businessman is being ripped off to hide the fact that a handful of billionaires have bought off the gov't. It makes a lot of sense to adjust the IT to reflect current reality and even create added exemptions for small family businesses, but outright repeal is a RW wet dream that will only create the permanent ruling class that our country was founded to fight.

[Unsane]

75. As an Obama supporter, I don't support raising cap gain taxes.

Many people own mutual funds that depend on stock revenues. I hope this is not true.

[Gman]

88. Apparently it's very true. See:

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2007/9/19/obama-pushes-for-higher-investment-taxes.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/19/us/politics/19obama.html (second paragraph... who is he defining as "wealthy")

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article4337.html

There's plenty more out there. Obama, in his usual vaporish feel-good rhetoric talks about raising the capital gains tax on the "wealthy". THe problem is who is he including in "wealthy". Guess who? Me and you and anyone else that works for a living and has a few investments.

[aquarius dawning]

89. It is true.

and it's 90% of the reason why I'm opposed to BO.

[blonndee]

98. The OP is at the very least a distortion of Obama's views.

See interview linked here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5520304&mesg_id=5520595

[npincus]

79. some economics wizard on CNBC that would be a big mistake

with dreadful consequences for our economy.

[knixphan]

80. everyone brush up on your pre-Reagan.

The disparity he began needs to be healed.

[aquarius dawning]

87. yeah, we need to get back to the prosperity of the Carter years.

[catnhatnh]

104. Yep-let's assign some blame here....

Nixon, Nixon, Ford,Lie and subvert your way to wealth
Crash
Carter struggles 4 years with existing problems

Reagan, Reagan, Bush 1 Deregulate your way to wealth
Crash

Clinton, Clinton, Bush 2, Bush 2, Privatize your way to wealth
Crash

I'm starting to see a pattern...

[aquarius dawning]

114. Ok, lets.

LBJ started the war that caused Carter's Economic woes. Nixon ended it.
Reagan ended the cold war which provided the peace dividend that enabled Clinton to balance the budget finally.
Bush tried to raise taxes to pay the bills and was fired for it. There really wasn't much of a crash after his administration.
Clinton's economy kicked ass for 8 straight years.
Bush..well, is Bush. It's beyond the scope of this to go into all of that.

[Hippo_Tron]

252. You forgot the part where Carter appointed Paul Volcker to be Fed Chair

Who helped clean up the stagflation mess which Raygun would take credit for of course. Not to mention Reagan's incredible luck with the collapse of OPEC and an influx of cheap oil.

Presidents don't have much short term control over the economy (sometimes they don't have long term control either). The economy was bad during the Carter years because of inflation from Nixon/Johnson spending and because of the oil shortage due to OPEC. However, Carter was visionary enough to see that the long term solution to our economic problems was to end our dependence on foreign oil.

A second term for Carter could have meant staring serious investment in renewable energy 30 years ago, instead of just starting now. Instead we elected Raygun who ripped the solar panels off the White House.

[ieoeja]

304. Nixon ended the Cold War, not Reagan.

Detente exposed the people of the Soviet Union to the prosperity of the West. Ford and Carter continued that policy.

Then along came Reagan with the Conservative mantra of bigger military trumps all. He tried returning to Churchill's Cold War "Iron Curtain" seige strategy embraced by Truman through LBJ. The Soviets, predictably, rallied 'round the flag breathing new life back into the old Soviet.

But they couldn't put the genie back in the bottle. PepsiCo opened up a Pizza Hut on Red Square and all the news broadcasts led with "communism is dead". The Soviet Union would stagger on for a few more years waiting for a new American president (Poppy) to welcome Russia's entry into the market economy with open arms.

Maybe you want to credit Reagan since PepsiCo did open that Pizza Hut while Reagan was in office? But you would be wrong to give him that credit as Reagan did everything in his power to stop that from happening.

Reagan did everything he could to stop the Soviet Union from abandoning communism.

We had been fighting the Soviet Union so long that Conservatives forgot why!

[JoFerret]

93. Great. I am for that

At last some Obama lead proposals I can support.
Gobama (on this one) and good luck!

[ileus]

94. it's free money for the government, not to be confused with your money. nt

[high density]

101. This is BS

It doesn't hit working class Americans hard, it hits rich folks hard. Put money in a Roth IRA and Roth 401k if you don't want to pay taxes on gains (assuming they don't find a way to tax distributions from those sort of accounts...)

[aquarius dawning]

116. IRAs can still dwindle away to nothing when poor economic policies aimed at the wealthy backfire

and IRA's barely keep up with inflation.

[catnhatnh]

133. It is BS....

But it does not hit "rich folks hard". The few rich folk in this country are the ones screaming rape when in fact they are told to pay their bills...

[Imagevision]

119. So? - I'll still make out better with Obama in the long and short run...

[GoesTo11]

124. Middle class hardly pays capital gains tax at all

From Citizens for Tax Justice http://www.ctj.org/pdf/cg0306.pdf.

"In 2005, the wealthiest 1 percent of Americans ($396,000 income or more) received almost 70
percent of all long-term capital gains—and paid 72 percent of the tax on
these capital gains.

The wealthiest 10 percent (income above $154,000) of taxpayers enjoyed 90 percent of the capital
gains eligible for this special tax break.

The poorest sixty percent of Americans (income up to 46,000), by contrast, collectively received
just 2 percent of the capital gains eligible for the lower capital gains rates

Households with Income under 110,000 pay about 5% of all capital gains taxes.

[lastliberalintexas]

173. Great post!

You must be a Marxist, you Commie you. :)


Welcome to DU.

[SoonerPride]

127. Source for this?

His website doesn't mention it.

Even if it is true, I say good.

But I think you made this up.

[GoesTo11]

143. Citizens for Tax Justice

I just checked the link on my post - it worked for me (it's a pdf file). Maybe a technical problem w/Adobe for you?

Anyway, I cut and pasted from it.

[SoonerPride]

154. No, sorry, not your post, but the OP. The Obama site makes no real mention of raising capital gains.

Other than his repeal of the Bush tax cuts, but thats hardly news.

And even so, I say raise the hell out of capital gains. It's criminal to make money off sale of stocks and not pay like a 75% tax on it.

[smiley_glad_hands]

128. Wow you guys really are towing the republican line. eom

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

129. I wish I had some stock I could sell and pay capital gains taxes on.

Most middle class people these days have no stock other than what's in their 401Ks, if they have those. If they ever had any they probably already sold it to pay their mortgages.

[smiley_glad_hands]

135. Go figure?

I never thought i'd see the day that a democratic campaign would be pushing the republican agenda at DU no less.

[SoonerPride]

142. DINOs like Lieberman and Clinton feel more at home on Fox News and with Scaife.

And they are elitists who worry about selling stocks for a huge fucking profit and not paying for the goddamned wars they start with their blood fucking money.

[smiley_glad_hands]

152. They have sold out so much they are just enablers of more of the same. eom

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

159. No shit. eom

[hfojvt]

139. I'm not gonna call you DLC

but nucking futs, greedy, and ignorant ARE a distinct possibility.

I'm not even sure you have any stock since you confused a paper gain with a real gain. Paper gains are the gains you WOULD have if you sold your stock. Once you sell it, it is a real gain.

Working class stiffs as you call them are making 99.44% of their income from wages. That's why they're called working class. It is the rich who get something like 75% of the gains from that capital gains tax cut.

[AllentownJake]

140. Good

We shouldn't support gambling and that is what the Stock Market is. I spent 5 years in Financial Services. Raise that tax and cut the income tax for people making between 30,000 to 100,000 a year. We should reward labor not fucking reward gambling.

[lastliberalintexas]

141. I thought this was satire, then I read the rest of the thread

Now I'm just confused...

I thought I'd seen DU's low point when we had people arguing in favor of the (anything but) Fair Tax, but if you and others are seriously arguing against raising capital gains taxes, we might have hit a new low.

[BlueIdaho]

145. KKKarl? Is that you KKKarl? nt.

[smiley_glad_hands]

156. I swear I've seen his tracks on multiple threads lately. eom

[catnhatnh]

153. Test N/T

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

155. Good, I hope he does. This has got to be the biggest load of BS I've seen on DU today.

Jesus, I guess it's AOK in your book for a multimillionaire to be paying a lower tax rate then working folks?

(Warren Buffett said he makes $46 million a year in income and is only taxed at a 17.7 percent rate on his federal income taxes. By contrast, those who work for him, and make considerably less, pay on average about 32.9 percent in taxes - with the highest rate being 39.7 percent.)


Plus the Goddess of Peace apparently likes the idea as well, which I give her some credit for.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/06/26/news/newsmakers/clinton_buffett/index.htm?postversion=2007062700

[mrreowwr_kittty]

158. Very few middle class people own stock and those who do don't have that much.

Most working people who have any investments at all have them in IRAs and 401ks, which are taxed fully at your regular income rate when you take distribution. And most of them are tapping into those to pay medical bills and things like that. The people who will be affected by a raise in capital gains, and not that badly all things considered, are in the investor class. A small increase in that tax would do a world of good for our beleaguered treasury.

[walldude]

168. Hey now.. don't mess up his argument by

telling him how "clueless he is about the middle class".

[mrreowwr_kittty]

171. It's just shocking to see this attitude here.

If he's really worried about capital gains, then he ain't middle class.

[walldude]

176. Oh but it's the "trickle down" theory.

You know, rich people are so nice if we cut their taxes they'll share the windfall by increasing wages... :rofl: :rofl:

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

177. Amen. You'd think we were on the American Enterprise Institute forum...

[catnhatnh]

162. 165 replies and 2 recommendations...

...probably means this tread has pissed off many and resonated with few.If I could dis-recommend, you would be 50% worse off, though I recognize the percentage seems high to you...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

166. Plus, who do you know who's selling stock for a profit right now?

I sold mine at a loss this year to get some needed income and paid no tax.

[aquarius dawning]

182. I actually could right now.

My IRA did shitty but by investing through my individual account , I am ahead of the game now. I'm very tempted to sell but I think I can hold out for more for quite a while. I did take a beating in goldmines when gold dropped but I'm pretty sure I'll recover.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

185. And you do realize that most working people are not in the position you are in don't you?

Only about 30% of Americans even have an IRA or 401k, tops.

[aquarius dawning]

187. only about 30% of Americans work for a living too (that's an estimate)

and everyone in my family does and, guess what, they are all loyal contributing Democrats who support unions and liberal ideas (me included). I think your numbers may be off. Not all Democrats are poor/unemloyed/discheveled/huddled masses and not all workers fit your schema.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

188. Thanks for sharing, Mr. Hannity. nt

[aquarius dawning]

192. Typical. I'll remember these things when BO is being thrown to the wolves.

[smiley_glad_hands]

196. You mean hilliary hasn't already done or tried that?

[AZBlue]

178. Wow - you just copied and pasted all of today's GOP talking points and put them in one post!

[anonymous171]

179. I heard he will also take your guns and is an atheist/muslim/radical christian

[aquarius dawning]

184. really? I heard that too. I also heard that he disrespected the flag and loves white women.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

237. I'm sure you did, Sean. nt

[Occam Bandage]

180. LMAO. Take that right-wing garbage back to Grover Norquist.

[knixphan]

222. lol!! nice.

[quakerboy]

181. Well, Since its such a good idea to reduce CGT

Maybe we should throw in with the Cato institute, the National Review, and any other RW think tank you can look up who agrees with you on this. That capitol gains tax and, for good measure, the death tax are just killing your average American. Lets do away with them post haste, right-o.

Or, alternately we could be progressives and Democrats and do something that helps the country and the people in it, rather than disproportionately helping those who need it the least.

[silverweb]

183. Good. I hope he does.

Why should unearned income be taxed less than earned income?

A progressive system of taxation should include an equal tax scale for all income sources.

I know someone who earned twice what I make in a year just in capital gains alone by not lifting a finger.

Why should my income be taxed and his not taxed at least at an equal rate?

[varelse]

186. From the Economic Policy Institute's April 2008 study on income trends

Detailed Analysis:

Since investment income primarily accrues to those at the top of the income
structure, any expansion of investment income — as occurred during the 1990s — will lead to
greater income inequality.

Between 1979 and 2000, income derived from capital — such as rent, dividends, interest
payments, and capital gains — increased as a share of personal income from 18.6 percent to 26.9
percent. Over the same period, total labor income — wages, salaries, and fringe benefits — fell
from 75.8 percent of personal income to 71.8 percent.26 Between 2000 and 2005, lower interest
rates and the stock market decline of the early 2000s resulted in a drop in the share of income
derived from capital to 20.9 percent; however, that share remained higher than in 1979.27 Further,
the share of national income growth going to corporate profits during the recent recovery was
considerably higher than average.

Higher-income families benefit disproportionately from the increase in the importance of
investment income, as this type of income makes up a larger share of their total income. Some 86
percent of all capital gains income is realized by families in the top 5 percent of the income
distribution.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

204. And something like 99% of it (investment income) is concentrated in the top 30%.

Only about 30% of Americans (and that's a very generous estimate) even participate in 401k or IRA plans.

[TML]

189. So what?

Bush and Clinton made sure I don't make enough money to put away in a 401k. No stocks to sell = no worries.

Why be bitter, Clintonistas? :evilgrin:

[gal]

195. Well if it goes to pay down the national debt.

I'm for paying more taxes if we get the national debt paid down.
I don't think we should be getting "refunds" until we have a surplus.
Take it but do the right thing with it.
I'm middle class but it's a sacrifice we should be making, not our grandkids.

[GoldieAZ49]

197. That they don't know WTF they are talking about is very clear

Obama will raise everyones taxes including capital gains, he thinks he can spend my money better than I can...WRONG

I will not vote for him, he can spend his San Francisco buddies money, he is no friend to the working class, that he has made clear.

[woolldog]

245. Oh shut up.

I agree with you on the Capital Gains issue, but both Dems want to increase the tax, so stop acting like it's only Obama whose in favor of increasing the CGT. Stop acting like an idiot to score a dumb political point.

[GoldieAZ49]

248. I don't want Clinton to raise taxes either

But I think she will listen to economist more than Obama will

my distrust with Obama is far more than tax issues

[woolldog]

249. Obama has Goolsbee on his economic staff. Obama taught at UChicago also.

Obama is a smart guy. I have a hard time seeing him raising the capital gains tax given the kind of economic situation we're facing currently.

(Sorry for saying shut up, btw.)

[GoldieAZ49]

250. thank you

it is nice to have a topic we agree on

[woolldog]

253. I know, finally!

:hug:

[GrandmaJones7]

200. So only the rich will be affected?

How odd coming from an elitist such as Obama.

[dysfunctional press]

205. cut the capital gains tax for people making less than 100k, and wages must constitute 66% of income.

for EVERYONE else- tax capital gains as regular income.

[aquarius dawning]

209. It's better for me but i still think we should be propping the market up, not talking about tearing

it down. Investor confidence is low enough as it is. this kind of talk won't help. The market is more important than a lot of you give it credit for. All of our fates are, unfortunately, tied to its performance directly and indirectly. It isn't just a rich man's thing. worse yet, its success or failure affects people and communities across the globe, not just here in America.

[Hippo_Tron]

254. Do you have evidence to show how much this will discourage investment?

I realize that it's basic economics that if you tax something, demand for it goes down. That doesn't mean that taxing it will decrease demand significantly enough that the tax increase isn't worth it.

Your argument makes sense but you don't have any evidence to support it. The Laffer curve is also a theory that makes sense but in the real world humans simply don't increase their productivity enough to net more tax revenue for the Treasury than there was before the tax cut.

I'm not an expert on how supply and demand in the stock market works but I do know that the rest of the civilized world forces the rich to pay large shares of their income (much of which comes from investment) so that they can afford things like universal health care and good public education. They don't seem to run into these doomsday scenarios that you are predicting.

[dysfunctional press]

279. you sound like a scared little child who's afraid of losing his security blanky...

the stock market IS just a rich man's game- it's not about keeping people fed and warm and healthy- it's about lining the pockets of the wealthy. and it's high time we helped them EMPTY those pockets out to the benefit of ALL society.

[aquarius dawning]

307. You sound like a jealous little child who doesn't have a fucking clue about what he's talking about

You are a clueless, bitter, jealous little child with no understanding of economic reality. Was it just the "rich man" suffering the last time the market crashed? No, the entire fucking planet felt the shockwaves of that crash for over a decade and it culminated in world war 2 which resulted in 55 million dead people. Clueless bitter Democrats like you are why Republicans like John McCain get elected instead of Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton.

[dysfunctional press]

308. Clueless bitter Democrats like you are why Republicans like John McCain get elected...

"...instead of Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton."

ummmm...i wouldn't vote for john mccain for any reason whatsoever- so your logic is extremely flawed there.

the stock market crash was the culmination of rich man's greed & social/economic inequality, but it thankfully brought about the New Deal- and it's obviously high time the deck was shuffled again. :hi:

don't be such a scaredy-cat.

[Gman]

225. That's a good idea

I wish I had the time to put some figures to that.

[Liberal Gramma]

208. A year from now we may all be wondering where our next meal is coming from

I think a depression is highly likely in the near future and we're argueing about whether capital gains should be taxed higher or not? How about worrying about how a good number of our citizens are going to survive when their unemployment benefits run out!

[aquarius dawning]

210. If the market fails, we have depression. That's what a depression is. That's how we get bread lines

That's how we get World Wars.

[FlyingSquirrel]

211. 2005 views 225 replies 5 recs

Surprised it got 5.

:shrug:

[aquarius dawning]

212. I gave it 1. it semed more worthy than many I've seen.

[Ichingcarpenter]

215. He got 5 recs on his investment of an insolvent involvement of illogical argument

that he spent hours on!!!!!

CAPITAL GAINS!!!! ROCK!!!!1


Give him his reward!


FAIL

[Binka]

228. Thanks Iching I've Read This Sorry Ass Thread Just To See You Kick Booty

Somebody is a greedy fucking SOB and we know who it is. You are my DU hero for the day!:loveya: :thumbsup:

[Ichingcarpenter]

255. My name is Luka

I think you have seen me before
I live on the second floor.

After they hit, you just don't argue any more

If you hear some thing late at night................

[TheDonkey]

261. a few desperate Hillary supporters and sock puppets have given this mess pity recs

[kentuck]

221. What kind of Republican bullshit is this?

Maybe we might want to evaluate which Party we really prefer. The average American and the average Democrat don't even know what a "capital gain" is???

[ItNerd4life]

297. The smelly kind? n/t

[jzodda]

227. What fucking forum has this become? Americans for Tax Reform?

Grover Norquist's hangout? The idea that the poor and middle class, the base of this party is crying for a lowering of a tax that is a prime concern mostly to the very upper middle class and wealthy is bullshit. It should be raised and raised hard core. Working class Dems as the OP puts it have their money tied up in 401k, IRA, etc. Thats if they have any investments left at all in this climate or ever had any to begin with. They don't call their broker every day to talk "trades" or have $50k to play with on Etrade. This argument is bogus and belongs on another forum.

I would rec this thread for its humor value but in reality all it does is make me fucking angry. That we have selfish people in our own party.

[Binka]

229. I don't think I've met you before jzodda but thanks for your post. Hats off!

Nice to read some sanity. Grover fucking "drown government in the bath tub" Norquist indeed. :loveya: Don't you call your broker every day? Jesus why the hell not?:sarcasm:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

244. It's so disheartening to see how many DEMS drink the Corporate Koolaid.

You'll see the same thing on threads about outsourcing. It's so :banghead: I can't stand it.

[Justitia]

257. Quit calling it a "paper" gain, it's a REALIZED gain & the current lower rate is sunsetting by law.

Wanna make it fair? Tax it at ordinary income rates.

[boppers]

274. I act on something, build something, change something... it can be taxed.

I love the rich folks who whine about paying the same tax rate as everybody else.

[Life Long Dem]

277. Why is it the only ones complaining are the repukes?

:puke:

[Frumious B]

283. These wealthy corporate types only have one tool for selling their tax cuts.

They claim that the middle and working classes are being hurt even if they aren't. See also "death tax". It seems to me that a stock trader shouldn't be paying lower taxes on their income than everybody else. It seems to me that millionaires and billionaires who get virtually all of their income from investment shouldn't be paying lower taxes than the rest of us. This is one more of many good reasons to vote for Obama as far as I am concerned.

[Vinca]

284. The average working class guy had to cash in his stocks about

2 jobs ago - if he ever had any. Any increase in capital gains tax is geared toward Paris Hilton types who sit by the pool and earn money all day. This is probably the single most Republican-sounding post I've seen on DU.

[bullwinkle428]

298. Amazing and disheartening to see how so many here are

starting to sound like Ron Paul supporters... :cry:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

289. Higher cap gains tax bad= Republican horseshit.

[oviedodem]

290. I highly doubt this will happen.

[JoFerret]

296. Good. Finally - a reason to vote for him

By how much?

[dionysus]

300. ROFL

uh huh...
bwahahahahaha

[rndmprsn]

302. good...

[truebrit71]

303. Sorry but that is complete horseshit. It is NOT a 'paper gain' if you have physically sold the stock

If you have sold the stock that is a 'Realised gain' and is going to get taxed. The rate at which you currently get taxed depends upon how long you've held the stock.

The capital gains tax has little to no direct impact on the working class in the US because they rarely own stock or mutual funds, and even if they do the amount of the tax is negligible. Thos that do own stock or mutaul funds do so in tax-deferred vehicles like IRA's.

The upper class (dare I say it, the "elites") benefit greatly from cap. gains cuts and that's why it has become a favourite plank in the rethuglican platform.

In the same way that if you earned minimum wage you received zero benefit from the bush tax-cuts, you stand to lose little if the cap gains tax goes back up.

Simply put, y'all don't make enough for it to matter to you.

[jody]

306. Sorry, BO cannot "raise the capital gains tax", only congress can do that. n/t