If you can't vote for HRC because of her war vote, then you sure as fuck can't vote for Obama either

[mtnsnake]

so enough with this bullshit that somehow Hillary Clinton is responsible for what's happening in Iraq but Obama isn't. Barack Obama, along with Hillary, has voted for each and every measure that came up in the Senate to fund this pathetic war, thereby enabling it to continue. Like Dennis Kucinich bravely told them during the debates, the Democrats could stop this war in a second if they refused to vote to fund it. Everyone knows that the Dems voting to fund the war are just afraid that they'll be perceived as non-supportive of the troops if they vote no for the funding measures, but that is nothing but political cop-out to the nth degree.

Unless your candidate is Dennis Kucinich, then all of you using this excuse as to why you won't vote for Hillary for her war vote, but you will vote for Obama even while he votes to enable the war to continue, are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.

That is the cold hard truth. :smoke:

[AX10]

1. K & R!

This is Bush's war.

[awaysidetraveler]

156. However, you can vote against her war policy of reduce troops and stay until 2013.

A policy that's sure to lose, no matter what you want for America.

Of course, you don't have to take it from me, go ahead and check out both of their websites.
It's very clear that HRC has no timeline for leaving Iraq, and Obama does.

[leftofcool]

2. Exactly!

[GrandmaJones7]

108. +1! NTXT.

[GOPNotForMe]

3. Her vote helped get us there.

The vote to "continue" the war is quite another story. If you can't understand that, then there is no point in trying to explain this to you.

[mtnsnake]

6. I'm not saying it didn't

[PoliticalAmazon]

147. Hillary has done nothing effective to bring our troops home...

...Besides voting for the Iraq invasion, up until the time she started running for president, she continued to stand behind her vote to send our troops to slaughter in Iraq.

In addition, you cannot get beyond the fact that she voted for it, when there was enough information available to make any ethical person vote "no." Even rank-and-filers like you and me had access to enough information to raise enough questions about the Bush administration's reasoning to prove that entry into Iraq would be under false pretenses.

Yet she voted for it anyway.

That means one of two things:

1) She knew it was wrong to vote for it but did it for her own best interests and political expediency.

2) Even with all of her access to intel, she didn't know and voted out of blind ignorance.

If the first is true, she is unfit for office because she sent our soldiers into slaughter for her own political best interests.

If the second is true, she is unfit for office because she is mentally incompetent; indeed, she should be on Meals-On-Wheels, not in the Senate.

You know, Democrats from all over America called, faxed and emailed her, begging her not to vote for the entry into Iraq. It was a MASSIVE contact mobilization drive. Yet she ignored us, just like she has ignored us on other neocon bills that she voted for.

She obviously knew better but voted for the Iraq invasion anyway, she ignored the pleas of Democratic voters not to vote for teh Iraq invasion, and she has shown herself in the campaign to be a nearly pathological liar.

Therefore, only a gullible fool would believe her promises now about bringing our soldiers home from Iraq.

I believe she has no intentions of fulfilling this campaign promise (nor her promise to bring jobs back to America) because it would go against her own best interests to do so.

And if it's one thing we have learned about Hillary: she puts her own self interests first always, and the rest of us can be damned as far as she is concerned.

[BigBearJohn]

96. and 'his' vote is helping us STAY there!

[goldcanyonaz]

4. How dare you say anything against our !next Messiah! Wash your hands immediately

[papau]

22. LOL - I think that rule only applies on DU

[Auntie Bush]

30. And rub your mouth out with soap!

[roguevalley]

115. she voted to put them there. he voted to fund this fiasco because they

are stuck there. Putting them there trumps the other. Cold hard facts. If she hadn't put them there, he wouldn't have to fund this fiasco until we rescue them.

[Auntie Bush]

151. "If she hadn't put them there,"

Wow! The Little woman Junior Senator from NY put them there?????????
I know she is a smart powerful woman ... but THAT powerful???????
See what I mean...you people post lies and exaggerations and then believe yourselves. When are you going to realize you're drinking your own propaganda?

[cottonseed]

5. She voted to allow Bush to send kids off to die.

She wasn't completely responsible for it, but she sure as hell didn't do a thing to try and stop it.

[BlooInBloo]

7. Clinton voted for war. Obama did not. Done....

... (post-game show: Clinton wouldn't do any differently if she had it to do over again.)

EDIT: And btw - what a wonderful campaign slogan: She's not the only one! She's not the only one! Vote for Clinton!

[mtnsnake]

9. No it's not done. "Done" will be when Obama, Hillary, & Co. vote NO to funding this frigging war

[maximusveritas]

11. Uh they already did

Short memory or just not paying attention? They both voted against funding the last time it came up.

[jackson_dem]

51. Obama voted to help pay for the war. That is a vote for war

[BlooInBloo]

58. Oh looky! It's Hillaerobics! And Twist! And Twist! Distort! Distort!

All in an asinine attempt to draw attention from the obvious and universally known fact.

The Hilarity Clinton Show just gets better and better!

:rofl:

[jackson_dem]

61. How can helping fund something not be a vote to continue that very enterprise?

[BlooInBloo]

64. You might have better luck peddling the lie with someone else....

EDIT: But thanks for confirming the like-candidate-like-supporter hypothesis I've had.

[jackson_dem]

70. So you can't explain the inconsistency between Obama's words and actions?

[Mooney]

66. Hillary voted for the war AND to help pay for it. That is TWO votes for war.

So Hillary has two strikes and Obama has one. Obama wins.

[BlooInBloo]

68. They know. They're just trying to lie to us. Like candidate, like supporter.

[jackson_dem]

71. More than two. There have been several votes to keep the war going

[Mooney]

77. But she'll always beat him by that one vote.

[PBS Poll-435]

142. Of course not. Nobody asked him.

He was partying with Rezko in Springfield/Chicago at the time.

:rofl:

[maximusveritas]

8. These are 2 different issues and you know that

I'm not even going to bother explaining it, since I'm sure you've heard it before.

[mtnsnake]

20. Obama, Hillary, & all the Dems could stop this war by not voting to fund it

They are not doing so because they are afraid of future political ramifications to their own careers, due to them worrying about people blaming them for not supporting the troops. They're also worried about taking the blame and being perceived as throwing in the towel. It's a lousy political clusterfuck of a wording joke put on by the Republicans to shame our Democrats into giving in once again. Dennis Kucinich is gutsy enough not to fall in line, but he doesn't get the support to end the war that it takes.

[jackson_dem]

52. Exactly, mtn (Edwards also came out for defunding but the "anti-war" vote when to Obama)

:thumbsup:

[RaleighNCDUer]

83. No, they couldn't.

Would you rather they voted to NOT send the troops body armor and upgraded vehicles? Would you rather they voted NOT to send spare parts to the trucks and helicopters running? Do you remember the stories of the troops getting one meal a day, over a period of weeks, because of resupply problems?

IT'S NOT JUST WORDS.

But that's not the way it happens anyway.

There is an appropriation for the military, from which the military pays for military pay, housing, transportation, equipment, training, and a hundred other line items, AND combat operations. If the combat operations are shorted, they just take the money from something else. There is no line-item funding. We can't stop funding the war, and continue to pay for ANYTHING else. To unfund the war would require stopping ALL military appropriations.

But that's not the way it happens anyway.

As I'm sure you know, the funding of the war is OUTSIDE the budget. That means the military has a blank check for the war. Even if ALL military appropriations were stopped, it would not stop the special appropriations for the war.

So just where, exactly, can they vote to stop the war?

And even if they did vote, would the vote pass? Between the republicans, the DLC imperialists, and the blue dogs, (and your candidate fits in there where?) how do we get a majority?

So since there is no practical way of effecting an end to the war by congressional votes, is it really prolonging the war to provide necessities to the troops?

[mtnsnake]

88. I'll take Dennis Kucinich's word for it any day of the week and twice on sunday. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

132. That just shredded my arguement all to hell.

I stand in awe of your intellect.

[msallied]

153. THANK YOU!

The thread should have ended here, really. Great post.

[rodeodance]

10. well, said. mtsnake.

[AtomicKitten]

12. Hillary abdicated her Constitutionally mandated war-declaring powers to an idiot.

Once in Congress, Barack was left to deal with that mess once the deed was done and Iraq had been invaded. Big difference.

Nice try muddying the waters. :hi:

[BlooInBloo]

15. Well-put.

[dchill]

35. In my opinion, you now OWN this thread!

:hi:

[mtnsnake]

49. That was wrong, but it wasn't just her. It's also wrong that she & Barack keep voting to enable it

by voting YES to every funding bill that has been put on the Senate floor.

Even all our experts said before 2006 that Democrats would FINALLY be able to bring this war to a grinding halt if they got power in Congress because they could stop the war by stopping the funding. So what happens...we get the power, and then we cop out like gutless fools because we're afraid of how we'll be perceived. Just fucking wonderful

[Mooney]

63. So according to your logic

Hillary cast the vote for the IWR, and compounds her error by continuing to fund the war, so we should vote for her instead of Obama?

[mtnsnake]

72. No

I am not saying that. Like I said in the OP, the people who are saying that THE reason that they will not vote for Hillary is because of her war vote should not be supporting Obama EITHER because he is voting for every measure that comes up to enable this war to continue. Call it the Dennis Kucinich train of thought if you will.

[Mooney]

74. I don't know anybody whose sole reason for not supporting HRC is her IWR vote.

For me at least, there's a plethora of good reasons. That's just the most galling one.

[mtnsnake]

81. Maybe not you, but here are more than a few:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5513310

[Harry Monroe]

82. And what's most galling about her IWR vote is not that she voted for the war

A lot of Democrats voted for the war and were duped. What is most galling is that she has never apologized for that vote and called it the mistake that it was. I had a lot of admiration for Edwards when he apologized for his vote and said it was a mistake. That took political courage and it was the main reason I was one of his supporters before he dropped out. But Hillary has never apologized for what she knows but will never admit was a mistake. To me that speaks volumes about her character.

[mtnsnake]

85. Apologizing for your vote won't make the war go away. Voting to de-fund the war WILL

Apologizing for their votes, only because it became politically correct for them to do so, did not and will not bring back one dead soldier, nor will any apologies re-attach any lost limbs. The only thing that will help is to do what Dennis Kucinich said...vote NO to the funding bills, now that the Dems have the power. That is what will work, not an apology.

[Mooney]

114. So Hillary shouldn't apologize, because it won't re-attach lost limbs?

Hillary should apologize in spite of the fact that it won't re-attach lost limbs, because it's the right thing to do. Doing it would cost her nothing, politically or otherwise.

[Harry Monroe]

133. No, the war is here and it is not going to go away.

That much I can agree on. But, Hillary voted for the war and has never had the courage to tell us that her vote was a mistake and to apologize for it. Everyone knows that it was a mistake to vote for the war. Why can't she admit she made a mistake? We are not stupid. It speaks volumes about Hillary and her cold, calculating political ways.

[uponit7771]

13. Given the choice I don't think I would've done different than Obama. Pulling out of Iraq quickly is

...stupid and thought less.

We can pull out of the joint best as possible

[TheDoorbellRang]

14. Well, then. Good thing that's not why I'm not voting for her, then

I actually forgave her that. It was political cowardice at the time, but she wasn't alone in that.

I DID object to her gratuitous pandering to the idiots pushing the flag burning amendment, tho. Totally unnecessary sucking up. Then her little fundraiser with Murdoch really made me wonder whose side she was on.

I went into this campaign season with her at the bottom of my list of candidates, and everything she's done since has pushed her even lower -- IF that is possible.

[Tribetime]

16. I prefer someone who didn't vote to authorize it.

over someone who did.

[Symarip]

17. Haha.

Nice try. But not really.

Anyhoo, let's say she does get the nomination. With your same words, isn't she just about screwed against McFucklenut? Why would you order hamburger when you can get steak for free? Shit, he'll blow her out of the water on this issue. In fact, he could make this is whole campaign and it'll probably make just as much sense as it did in 2004.

Remember Kerry? He was for it before he was against it. Flippity flopped his ass right into obscurity. Oh, let me guess The Goddess of Peace is different...

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz.......

[meow mix]

18. 100,000th post on the same flawed premise

not even worth rehashing

[tritsofme]

19. You are speaking in racial codewords aimed at Obama.

</obama supporter>

[Zhade]

21. DK was my guy, and I can't disagree with you on this.

Of course, I'm not voting for clinton because she's a proven fucking liar, not because of her IWR vote.

[mtnsnake]

27. I don't agree she's a liar, but I appreciate that your not voting for her because of other reasons

than her war vote.

DK was always my number one candidate too. It's a shame that Democrats don't have the guts, and probably never will, to back someone like him who best reflects what Democrats are SUPPOSED to be like.

[Double T]

23. ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!!

BO is ALSO an arrogant unaccomplished incompetent fraud that would only replace the current ONE residing in the Oval Office; that's ALSO the cold hard truth.

[FlyingSquirrel]

24. Why don't I have you on ignore already?

Oh yeah... it's 'cause I told you last time so you started stalking me in juvenile fashion by replying to my posts with "."

[mtnsnake]

31. funny

did it once with putting a period for a post as a joke. Sorry it offended you. Sheesh.

[Moochy]

99. ROUND ONE: Snake VS Squirrel!!!

Natural enemies in the wild!

[Arrowhead2k1]

25. Maybe because Obama

and Clinton to be fair both know that we now need to get out of Iraq in a responsible way. As much as I hate this war and want us out, simply defunding the war at this moment and creating an immediate power vacuum in Iraq is not the answer. We have to get out right and cover our asses with care or else the Dems won't be looking too hot in 2012.

[Joe the Revelator]

26. Funding troops who were already sent into a thicket of shit by Hillary & Co

is not the same as sending them there in the first place, but you know that mtn, you're not a dummy.

[Auntie Bush]

45. As a junior senator...you sure think she was powerful.

Hillary and Co. sent them there? As I recall bush*, all the Rethugs (except Chaffee) and more than half of the Dems sent them there.
Why is it all Hillary's fault? You now believe your own lies and spin.

And if you think if Obama had been there and planning on running for president wouldn't have voted for the war too...I have an old Vermont covered bridge to sell you. Every single person who had presidential ambitions...voted for the war...except DK, and he knew he didn't have a chance of winning. But it's all Hillary's fault. Give me a break! Take your dark glasses off and come unto the light.

[Joe the Revelator]

46. Her vote counts as much as anyone elses....she also came in as the wife of the leader of the party..

don't downplay the power and capital that she once held.

[Auntie Bush]

54. I thought she didn't have any power and /or experience. Can't have it both ways.

[Joe the Revelator]

75. You're grasping at straws.

[jackson_dem]

57. She was married to Tom Daschle?

Isn't he a big surrogate for Obama, the candidate of "change" (wink, wink) in Washington these days?

[mtnsnake]

62. LOL

:evilgrin:

[Tellurian]

84. When Hillary runs against McCain, the War Vote won't be an issue..

and neither will the Bosnia extravaganza.
We're good!

[juno jones]

79. Seems to me

That those bills included things like food, water, body armor, etc for the troops. Not to mention VA care for those who have returned.

I hate this war with the passion of a thousand suns, but I will never denegrate a congressperson for keeping our children alive over there. Logic dictates that we can't pack everyone up overnite and head out.

The fault lies with those who have tied the basic supplies for soldiers in with pork-fat-lard for military contractors.

The fault lies with those who voted for the original IWR so they could look all 'tough on terror'.

Some have admitted that fault and apologized. And others deny any wrongdoing. I know who I'm not voting for.

[Imagevision]

28. "Yes I can" with Obama I have a lot of hope bubbah...

[kwenu]

29. Or our soldiers could get conveniently hung out to dry by W. in order to blame Dems.

America would not tolerate abandoning our troops at all.

[TK421]

32. Why didn't anyone here crucify Kerry for that vote in the last election?

That is the explanation I would like to hear...I voted for him, and this place was pro-Kerry all the way....until after the election, that is....then the dirty talk about him "selling out" and being a shill started. This place was mostly for Kerry during that time...now he is anathema on this forum, which was a place where he was once respected and supported

[mtnsnake]

34. Yup, exactly. Selective criticism runs rampant here. It always has.

[dchill]

38. And apparently, no matter how un-self-aware, always will.

Eh?
:puke:

[TK421]

95. And NOW I have to go dig up every Democratic senator who voted for IWR

since I didn't memorize them....now this has REALLY gotten me pissed off, BIG TIME :mad:

Where is the shit slung there? I suppose it's because the rest of them aren't running now.....

[mtnsnake]

98. Here is the list of Yeas and Nays for the war vote

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&vote=00237&session=2#position

Toggle down to the "Grouped by Vote Position" list.

[TK421]

100. Thank you, mtnsnake......

:toast:

[mtnsnake]

102. Cheers

:toast:

[bvar22]

139. Many Democrats didn't vote FOR War.

Pat Leahy, Ted Kennedy, and Russ Feingold were leaders of the Opposition to the War in the Senate.
They ALL support Obama.
Paul Wellstone was also with them in opposing the WAR, and there is NO DOUBT Paul would be standing with this group.



The Democratic Party Honor Roll

These Democrats should be remembered for their principled stand against the WAR Machine.

IWR

United States Senate

In the Senate, the 21 Democrats, one Republican and one Independent courageously voted their consciences in 2002 against the War in Iraq :

Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
Barbara Boxer (D-California)
Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
Bob Graham (D-Florida)
Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
Patty Murray (D-Washington)
Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)


United States House of Representatives

Six House Republicans and one independent joined 126 Democratic members of the House of Represenatives:

Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii)
Tom Allen (D-Maine)
Joe Baca (D-California)
Brian Baird (D-Washington DC)
John Baldacci (D-Maine, now governor of Maine)
Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin)
Xavier Becerra (D-California)
Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon)
David Bonior (D-Michigan, retired from office)
Robert Brady (D-Pennsylvania)
Corinne Brown (D-Florida)
Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)
Lois Capps (D-California)
Michael Capuano (D-Massachusetts)
Benjamin Cardin (D-Maryland)
Julia Carson (D-Indiana)
William Clay, Jr. (D-Missouri)
Eva Clayton (D-North Carolina, retired from office)
James Clyburn (D-South Carolina)
Gary Condit (D-California, retired from office)
John Conyers, Jr. (D-Michigan)
Jerry Costello (D-Illinois)
William Coyne (D-Pennsylvania, retired from office)
Elijah Cummings (D-Maryland)
Susan Davis (D-California)
Danny Davis (D-Illinois)
Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon)
Diana DeGette (D-Colorado)
Bill Delahunt (D-Massachusetts)
Rosa DeLauro (D-Connecticut)
John Dingell (D-Michigan)
Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas)
Mike Doyle (D-Pennsylvania)
Anna Eshoo (D-California)
Lane Evans (D-Illinois)
Sam Farr (D-California)
Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania)
Bob Filner (D-California)
Barney Frank (D-Massachusetts)
Charles Gonzalez (D-Texas)
Luis Gutierrez (D-Illinois)
Alice Hastings (D-Florida)
Earl Hilliard (D-Alabama, retired from office)
Maurice Hinchey (D-New York)
Ruben Hinojosa (D-Texas)
Rush Holt (D-New Jersey)
Mike Honda (D-California)
Darlene Hooley (D-Oregon)
Inslee
Jackson (Il.)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Johnson, E.B.
Jones (OH)
Kaptur
Kildee
Kilpatrick
Kleczka
Kucinich
LaFalce
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Lee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lipinski
Lofgren
Maloney (CT)
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
McKinney
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Menendez
Millender-McDonald
Miller
Mollohan
Moran (Va)
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Owens
Pallone
Pastor
Payne
Pelosi
Price (NC)
Rahall
Rangel
Reyes
Rivers
Rodriguez
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Sabo
Sanchez
Sanders
Sawyer
Schakowsky
Scott
Serrano
Slaughter
Snyder
Solis
Stark
Strickland
Stupak
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Tierney
Towns
Udall (NM)
Udall (CO)
Velazquez
Visclosky
Waters
Watson
Watt
Woolsey
Wu



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[TK421]

90. So...I'm not crazy?

[Cameron27]

87. Exactly

[TK421]

94. You mean I'm not a nut-ball for thinking this?

This isn't a revelation to me....I've thought about it before, but now it just REALLY hit me.

The candidate most of us supported for 2004 was being swift boated on this very site after calls of him selling out his party and being a shill. He sold us out...he gave up on us. What could THIS website do to prove otherwise that election was stolen, like so many believed it to be? Yet they were the REAL Judas...

[Melinda]

103. Exactly wrong- I refer you to post 101.

:)

[JVS]

122. Oh look. Another person who wasn't here then commenting on what happened.

[Melinda]

101. You obviously weren't here when Dean was running.

Otherwise you'd not make such an inaccurate statement. DU was no more "pro Kerry all the way" than my Aunt Gladys was POTUS.

Dean's premise on the IWR was exactly the same as Obama's, which is what drew me to him (and them both) initially. DU was temendously split, with factions all fighting amongst ourselves for months on end, and well after Dean's infamous scream and the 4th estates distortions. AAMOF, it wasn't until the summer of 2004, when the swiftboating of Senator Kerry began, that those of us still resentful toward his candidacy decided to support him in even the smallest of measures.

Additionally, there was no talk of Kerry selling out after the election; however, there were many upset that he and JE did not legally challenge Ohio. And I have no idea where the "shill" talk comes from... that is just so not my DU experience.

But if you think it is my memory that's inaccurate, then please, pretty, pretty please, start a separate thread asking this (these) specific question(s). You'll then have definitive answers composed of far more than my singular response.

But DU junkie that I am and have been for a very long time, I know I'm right, and you're not. ;)

[TK421]

109. Oh pardon me, Melinda...I started posting here during the '04 debates

I saw pro Kerry posts all over this board....can you refresh my memory as to who exactly it was who was running against Bush then?.....


......Ummmmm...K.- well, and if you read my post, after Kerry gave up his fight, people here started accusing him of being a shill and attacked him for it....that is SO my DU experience.

PRETTY, PRETTY, PRETTY please prove ME wrong on this...my memory is just fine, thanks!

[Melinda]

113. There is no need to be snarky, sheese. We are in the primary season...

and a candidate has not yet been designated.

You originally asked:

"Why didn't anyone here crucify Kerry for that vote in the last election?"

"place was pro-Kerry all the way....until after the election, that is...."

And I responded to your question, after reading your profile join date, with an affirmative "You obviously weren't here when Dean was running or you wouldn't make such an inaccurate statement". And I stand by all I posted. DU was split down the middle during the primary season, same as it is now. And that's a fact. Kerry was raked over the coals, for months on end, all as a result of his IWR vote.

I'm not accusing you of lying, nor am I attacking you in any way, shape or form, so please... no need to be defensive, truly. My style may come across as abrasive, but I am a peacenik cursed with an analytical brain.

And so given the way my mind works, logically I examine and deduce, then assert as follows:

Your join date is April of 2005, and so it appears to me that 1) you weren't here during the primary season (unless you have/had a different user id?) or 2) you'd have a different recollection. Furthermore, I do trust you were reading DU around the time of the election in November of 2004, but it seems to me that you are remembering things (ie; pro Kerry) that did not take place on DU during the primary season of '04.

Re Kerry as a "shill" Can you elaborate on that further? What or whom exactly was Kerry accused of shilling for?

I'll end this with this... I'll DU mail long-time DUers and ask that they come and answer your question if you like, but I do ask that you not take offense when answered, please? Many of us have different styles, but we all, hopefully, have the same goal.. sharing information and learning from it and our differences. Oh, and watch for the *wink*.. it's a symbol of tongue in cheek, that there is no harm, nor foul, intended. ;)

[TK421]

150. No harm certainly, but your post struck me as a bit snotty...perhaps I was wrong

I read posts here and "joined" in May 2005 ( I think it was May ) and the comments I was referring to were posted after the election. Most of it was attacking Kerry because he didn't fight hard enough to get in there ( this was during the Ohio mess ).

So, sorry if I didn't state that more clearly.... and his yea vote was used against him by hardcore ultra right-wingers beforehand.

[JVS]

123. And I see pro-Hilary posts here. What's your point?

If you were paying any attention, you'd remember that Kerry was actually a minor candidate here before the Iowa Caucuses. The entire pre-season was dominated by Dean and Clark here. Both of them were praised highly for opposing the war.

[Melinda]

136. It was Wes Clark that ultimately coaxed my support to JK.

And we thought GD-P was ugly then, eh?

I was so heartbroken when Dean failed in his bid, but he's turned out to be one fine DNC chairman. Clark for VP, mebbe?

Thanks for the validation! :hi:

*edited to fix formatting... who knew that GD-colon-P made a smilie face!!

[CTLawGuy]

112. oh we did

we're called Dean Supporters. I'm glad Kerry is continuing to own up to his mistake, but I'm glad he did not run for president again. and yes, I voted for him in the GE.

[JVS]

121. You weren't here.

It happened. I know, I bashed him relentlessly for his IWR vote until it was forbidden.

[Egnever]

144. Plenty did. I can show you posts if you like

Many of us did. It wasnt any pretier here last time around.

[MadHound]

33. A little thing known as accountability

Back when the IWR was voted in, many, many people, both here and out in the real world, vowed to hold accountable those who voted for war. That is what we're doing now, holding Hillary accountable. It doesn't mean that we're terribly happy with Obama, but he didn't vote for the IWR, and thus doesn't need to be held accountable.

Oh, and yes, my original candidate was Dennis, both this year and in '04. Since he can't get traction, for various reasons, I'm left with the option of either supporting Obama, since he didn't vote for the IWR, or going Green. Accountability matters, and accountability is a bitch when it comes back to bite you on the ass, which is what's happening to Hillary now. Perhaps she'll learn her lesson and listen to the people, do the right thing next time, if there's a next time.

[GarbagemanLB]

40. Bingo. As I made that brother/Iraq picture thread, I am fully aware that Obama isn't the furthest

left on the foreign policy issues, but he sure as hell seems to be less hawkish than Hillary.

As you said, she voted yes, he did not. Is it fair to say Obama would have voted one way or another for sure? No. However, the facts are that Hillary didn't read the NIE before deciding to put the lives of our sons and daughters in Bush's hands. It was a colossal misjudgment on her part, and one she has never owned up to.

We already have had one president who doesn't admit mistakes...I don't want another one.

[mtnsnake]

43. I have no problem with holding anyone accountable but

when the same people who say that they can't vote for Hillary because of her war vote also say they will vote for Obama, even though he votes to fund this war all the time, then they are as hypocritical as it gets.

In my case, I will vote for whichever one gets the nod. Am I happy that Hillary voted for the war? No. Am I happy that Obama, Hillary, and a slew of other Democrats don't have the guts to stop the war by stopping the funding by voting NO whenever the measures come up? NO. Do I wish our party had the GUTS and the BRAINS...and would FINALLY put their money where their mouth is....to back a candidate like Dennis Kucinich someday? YES, I really do wish that!

[MadHound]

56. Perhaps you're not understanding what I'm saying here

Do I need to put it in simpler, one syllable words? Hillary voted for the IWR, thus enabling Bushboy's little war. She willfully and deliberately sent our troops into harms way, and in the process ignored the will of both her constituents and the wider populous at large. Sixty eight percent of the people were stating that they didn't want anything done until the inspectors had a chance to do their job, including tabling the IWR. Messages to Congressional members, including Hillary, were running 268 to 1 against the IWR. Millions were out in the street, both around the country and around the world demanding NO to the IWR. Yet she went ahead and voted for it anyway.

Obama didn't.

Thus the issue of accountability comes into play. If a representative makes a decision that you strongly disagree with, you can under our system of government hold them accountable for their actions by withholding your vote. If enough people decide to hold that particular representative accountable, that rep will not attain the office that they are striving for. That is the dynamic that is in play here. Hillary is being held accountable for the single action, her vote on the IWR. A lot of people are holding her accountable, and thus she is losing many votes, and likely her presidential bid. Like I said, perhaps she'll stop and think next time.

What has gone on since doesn't come into play. What Hillary is being held accountable for is her IWR vote. She voted yes, Obama didn't, it's that simple.

How are you going to get better government if you don't hold your leaders accountable? Sorry, but I don't give out free passes.

[cascadiance]

36. SO! Please explain how Clinton LEARNED from her Iraq vote in her Kyle-Lieberman Iran vote!

So, we're supposed to believe that she didn't give Bush carte blanche permission to invade Iraq, and that she's not learning from that mistake and doing it all over again to allow him fuel to go into Iran with her vote for Kyle-Lieberman.

I don't care how much she parses her words and her position on that as not giving him permission to go to war. The same thing happened to many people like Kerry for the Iraq vote (which is probably one BIG reason he's not president now!)

Clinton, as she's doing on so many issues is trying to have it both ways. Claiming that she's on the side of voters, but constantly showing how she really is supporting her backroom lobbyist friends just like the other cancer that's infecting Washington now!

[lastliberalintexas]

37. I might have to stop reading DU

It took me a long time before I could make myself pledge to vote for either of them in Nov, for this very reason. The more I am reminded of their votes, the less inclined I am to vote for either.

My vote counts for naught in the general anyway, but I'd still like to add to the meaningless popular vote total. :(

[mtnsnake]

44. I doubt if you are alone in your sentiments, lastliberalintexas. nt

[Symarip]

39. Enjoy your fail

[scheming daemons]

41. Um.. no.... once we're there, we have to fund the soldiers....

the point is not to go there in the first place.


As Obama said... once Hillary helped drive the bus into a ditch, even war opponents have an obligation to pay to get it pulled out of the ditch.


Not inconsistent at all..... but complex logic is lost on you.

[AllentownJake]

42. Yeah

I'm still voting and volunteering for Obama..thanks though for your thought provoking post.

[mtnsnake]

47. Your welcome

It bothers the shit out of me that our people don't do the right thing in these funding votes. It's not just the Senators, either. I have a feeling Nancy Pelosi doesn't agree with Dennis Kucinich in the slightest either. Our party is supposed to be stopping this war, not enabling it to go on. We finally got the power to do so, by stopping the funding bills, and all of a sudden they're worried how they'll be perceived if they do so. Just great

[AllentownJake]

50. In all fairness

IMO George Bush would do something to get the money anyway. Might use it as an excuse to declare some crazy edict that we don't want to think about. We go along with him till January 20 2009 and than we take power hopefully. Seriously if pushed I don't put that son of a bitch from declaring himself dicatator...safely remove him from power...than put him on trial...ok I'm done. Probably sound like a nut.

[mtnsnake]

60. You sound just fine

and I wouldn't put any of that past Bush.

[AllentownJake]

67. See we do agree

George W. Bush is an asshole. He needs to be put on trial and locked away till the day he breathes his last breath (I'm against the death penalty)

[mtnsnake]

73. Oh fuck do we ever

That's another reason why Dennis Kucinich is my hero. If it were up to him, Bush would get his due justice.

[AllentownJake]

76. To be honest

I think its better this way. If we win. The Bush Administration will be put on trial by either candidate. This is better than impeachment. Impeached Presidents might have the impression they were punished enough.

All I know is if I was any cabinet official involved in foriegn affairs other than Colin Powell I would not leave the country in 2009...the Hague is a cold place

[ecstatic]

48. watch me. and weep

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZSu0zXCR9sE

[jackson_dem]

59. Speaking of 2002 speeches, why is there no footage of the speech Obama is running on?

[thevoiceofreason]

53. Wanna bet, rattle boy?

[Mooney]

55. The war wouldn't come up for funding votes if it hadn't been authorized.

Hillary Clinton voted for the war. It's a situation that she helped create. No amount of obfuscating or distraction will ever change that.

So yes, I can refuse to vote for HRC because of her war vote, I sure as fuck can vote for Obama.

[guruoo]

65. K&R - Yes, Obama has always voted to continue the war

[Ichingcarpenter]

69. You have always been rightwing DLC and never supported Dennis

What a bullshit, disingenuous thread.

[mtnsnake]

78. Here read these past threads I did on Kucinich. Then you'll apologize for your lie if youve got guts

I don't appreciate you fucking lying about me and I won't forget it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3795006

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3696132

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3241893

[Ichingcarpenter]

110. First thread passive aggressive supportive post of Dennis

Second Post people called you out on your hypocrisy.


Third Post...... major dance with save elmer.
nuff said.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dinger]

80. Big Bear John Made A Good Point On This

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5466271

"Barack Obama was not a member of the U.S. Senate when he opposed the war in Iraq. Both John Edwards and Hillary Clinton were in the Senate, and if there's one thing we all should understand, it's that it's a whole lot easier to say "No" when you are not directly responsible as an elected representative for the security of hundreds of thousands of constituents and when you're a representative from a state with key military bases."

*This is a key point for me. It doesn't mean that it wasn't a good thing for Obama to speak out and oppose the war. To me, it just means that it is a lot easier for him to talk the talk when he didn't have to walk the walk, so to speak. In my opinion, they need to talk more about their plans, and how they would be implemented, and not so much focus on their voting records, though it is a factor to consider, because their voting records are very similar. Even their plans are similar, with Hillary's being more specific, which I like.
Now, I just looked over both Hillary's and Barack's plan to get us out of Iraq, from copies I printed off each of their websites.
They both call for a phased withdrawal. They both would include Iraq's neighbors in a diplomatic initiative in the region.
However, Hillary is more specific about where the money would come from in a post-withdrawal Iraq (Both candidates have a plan to include the UN, but Hillary is the one who says this"multi-billion dollar international effort would be funded by a wide range of donor states" under the UN.) If Obama has indicated where this money would come from, please let me know. If you're not sure, then maybe he needs to be more specific.

mtnsnake, you make a good point.:thumbsup: :hi:

[zulchzulu]

86. So should Obama have voted against the troops having armor or vets having support?

The cold hard truth is that Hillary Clinton was a political opportunist who had no problem giving Bush his war.

Should Obama lay the troops out to die without protection and tell the veterans they can get bent? You know your "argument" is full of shit.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zulchzulu]

104. Thanks for reminding me of your pre-junior high level of basic English

So the question again goes...should Obama have voted against the troops and veterans?

I'm sure you think he should...

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RiverStone]

91. And who will hold the Bush Admin war criminals accountable?

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/Barack_on_torture.html

More importantly, where do we go from here?

[mtnsnake]

93. That's good

I'm glad he answered that way, but he also hints at holding back somewhat in the same article. Just the same, it's promising.

Hopefully more and more people will jump on Kucinich's band wagon and not hold back at all.

[RiverStone]

97. Thanks for acknowledging some promise and common ground

Where ever this primary battle takes us, this kind of unity is what we need to kick rethug ass in the fall.

peace~:)

[Emit]

92. That wasn't the case for me at all, mtnsnake

I considered voting for Hillary. Had thought I likely would. And when the time came in my caucus, I just couldn't bring myself to do it. It was a matter of principal for me. Sorry, you are wrong on this.

[Jed Dilligan]

105. Voting against a war that hasn't started yet = political risk

Voting against funding troops who are already on the ground = political suicide

What would our chances be of regaining the White House if a blocked funding bill resulted in a Saigon-style withdrawal?

Hillary bet on everything being hunky-dory in Iraq by now. She lost. Get over it. Every gambler loses some.

[Yes We Did]

107. The fact of the matter is that they are two different votes with two different...

consequences. I can choose which vote hurt us the most because as Obama put it, you have limited options after you've driven the bus into the ditch. You now have to be careful getting out because U.S. lives are at stake. Add in what you think Bush will do if you refuse funding and that could mean catastrophe. Bush is vengeful. Who knows what he would do if he didn't get the funds got the troops.

Clinton's vote for war is different in that if she and others hadn't cast that vote for war, then it would have hog tied Bush. Look, there is no doubt that this is Bush's war but lets be really clear, Clinton enabled Bush's policies not once but twice. She's calling Bush incompetent and yet she voted for this war and further, knowing how badly he's bungled this war, she went along for the ride on the Kyle/Lieberman amendment. It's clear that she doesn't know what she's doing and your points, though salient are awash in a morass of excuses for supporting your candidate of choice. Clinton looks stupid voting for the war and then lying about her vote and then voting for another policy of his under the kyle/Liberman amendment. She can't be trusted.

[CTLawGuy]

111. Congress controls them getting in

The president controls them getting out. It's like when you mail a letter. You control when it goes in the mailbox but good luck trying to get it back after that.

We know this president would never pull the troops out, even if he had to divert money from other sources and keep operations on a shoe string budget he would keep them in.

The result would be even more deaths and no pullout. So I don't blame Obama for funding the troops.

[krkaufman]

116. I sure as FUCK can, and I sure as FUCK did, and I sure as FUCK will.

And I will sure as FUCK donate to whatever Democrat steps-up to challenge our latest Judas goat if she runs for reelection in 2012.

Hillary sure as FUCK voted to send troops to Iraq and she sure as FUCK continued to support the invasion and occupation until public opinion turned against the war and it became politically convenient for her to start backtracking.

So thanks for the advice, but I'll do what I FUCKing see fit -- which is primarily keep Hillary Clinton the FUCK away from the White House.

[cali]

118. "That is the cold hard truth" BZZZZZT.

No it's not. It's merely your deeply flawed and bizarre opinion.

[LWolf]

119. My candidate IS DK, lol.

Not that I can vote for him in my primary next month, or in November. I have never given either of them a pass on the war.

[JVS]

120. Nope. Not the same.

And why are you trying to scare people off of voting for either Democrat? Shame on you.

[mtnsnake]

125. Wake up. It's obvious I'm trying to do the opposite

of what you're accusing me of. By pointing out the outright hypocrisy of SOME people's excuse as to why they won't vote for Clinton, I'm hoping that if she gets the nod, that they will indeed end up supporting the Democratic candidate, Hillary in that case, just as they will for Barack.

Nice try, though, in putting your words into my mouth, especially after I already posted that I will be supporting whichever one of them wins our nomination.

[Frumious B]

124. HRC's intentions behind her IWR vote are a legitimate issue.

If she actually believed Bushco's claim that Saddam Hussein posed a legitimate threat to the US then you have to consider the possibility perhaps she is too gullible to be President. If, on the other hand, she didn't think Saddam was really a threat but went along with the war anyway then you really have to question the motivations behind her vote. Was she positioning herself as a national security hawk for her White House run? Did she think that the war would be over in six weeks and we'd all have free gas by now? Was she just too timid to make a stand against a President who was still quite popular at the time?

[Rose Siding]

126. Yes we can.

I really resented those funding votes, too. Then I remembered who was in the WH. How long do you think it would have taken that bastard bush to "run out" of money to provide care for the combat wounded JUST to pin it on dems?

Had our leadership been committed enough to ending the war, the only bills on the floor would have been funding for withdrawal. That not being the case, I don't think that even I would have voted against funding. To do so would have meant trusting bush not to brutalize our troops for political gain.

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

127. another air ball

[Jamastiene]

128. That's the truth. n/t

[shadowknows69]

129. Forgive me if I've chosen to go with the enabler instead of the author/enabler

[dionysus]

134. hey thereeee, mtnsnake!

Swingin' down the street with hillary
Nobody you meet could ever believe the lies she tells
Hey there, mtnsnake
Why do all the dems just pass you by?
Could it be the nasty lies, or is it the pantsuit she wears?

You're always candidate shopping, but never stopping to buy
So shed those DLC feathers and fly - a little bit

Hey there, mtnsnake
There's another candidate you should try
Bring out all the hope you hide and, oh, what a change there'd be
The DU would see a new mtnsnake....
:hi:

[Ian_rd]

135. Weak.

There are many liberals like myself that don't happen to think that a defunding and immediate pull-out is the best way to handle Iraq. Bush and his enablers like Hillary Clinton started something that is very complicated to get out of. Voting to keep troops there is not even in the same universe of culpability as the vote to start the war in the first place. Brilliant cartoonist Kirk Anderson likened our invasion to us punching our fist through a window. Simply pulling our hand right back through the jagged glass will only hurt ourselves more. This is something that is going to take time and brains. Bush has proven that he doesn't have brains, and really doesn't give a shit as long as he can pose with troops and look like a hero. Hillary has shown that, like Bush, she places immediate political concerns before what's better for our nation and our planet.

[flvegan]

137. My candidate IS Dennis Kucinich.

I'm not happy with either one of the two "candidates" we have here. As I hear echoed everywhere I turn it seems these days, "aren't these the WORST 3 candidates we've ever had?"

[elmerdem]

138. Their votes are the

same on funding the war. How can you get an advantage for HRC out of that? The funny thing is that you know damn well that if he voted to withdraw funding that HRC would be using the RW talking point right now that he "left troops in the theater without the support they need".

Your argument is illogical at best because Hillary also claims to be against the war now, but her votes are no different than Obama's. So my question is, what exactly is your point anyway?

[bvar22]

140. What are the choices for an Anti-War Democrat?

McCain = 100 years of MORE War

Hillary = The Invasion and Occupation of Iraq was a good thing. Bush just fucked it up.

Obama = Spoke out passionately AGAINST the War.

This is NOT a difficult choice.

Pat Leahy, Ted Kennedy, Russ Feingold were leaders of the Opposition to the Iraq War in the US Senate.
They have ALL endorsed Obama.

[SeaLyons]

141. K&R

Bunch of Hypocrites indeed!!!

Thanks for posting.

[mod mom]

143. Oct 2, 2002 Remarks of Sen Obama Against Going to War

Remarks of Illinois State Sen. Barack Obama Against Going to War with Iraq
| October 02, 2002
October 2, 2002

Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances. The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don't oppose all wars.

My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain. I don't oppose all wars.

After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this administration's pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such tragedy from happening again. I don't oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism.

What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne

-snip

http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/02/remarks_of_illinois_state_sen.php

[closeupready]

145. This thread is equally flamebait as the other one,

and should be locked, just as the other one was.

[blm]

146. BOTH Clintons SOLD that war to the Dem lawmakers AND the American people and STUCK BY Bush

and his decisions on that war during the LAST election and Bill even defended Bush repeatedly in nearly every high profile interview he did on his book tour, defended him from the very criticisms that Kerry was directing at Bush as the nominee.

[Avalux]

148. Sorry. Your argument is ridiculously flawed.

All I have to do is watch her meeting with Code Pink right before the bombs dropped to have my reason. She parroted the White House lies about why we needed to invade Iraq and said she "trusted" those in the WH were doing the right thing.

She was either stupid to be hoodwinked by them or knew they were lying and agreed with them.

Then, after it became apparent the reasons were lies, she continued to defend her vote instead of admitting she was wrong.

Don't even try to compare her to Obama on this.

[NorthCarolina]

149. Kucinich fan here that won't vote for Hillary for many reasons

including, but not limited to, the fact that she's a DLC Democrat which is essentially a Republican in my book. We've had about all the compassionate conservatism this country can handle, we certainly don't need more by once again empowering the DLC within the Democratic Party.

[LaurenG]

152. No not hypocrites

We have to choose and his choices are closer to mine than hers. Calling us hypocrites won't help your case. :shrug:

[indepat]

154. Hear, hear! Hear, hear

:thumbsup:

[gristy]

155. Single-issue voters? Is that what you think DU is full of?

I respectfully suggest you are the single-issue voter, and you are projecting this view onto the rest of DU.

[LSK]

157. I GUESS YOU NEVER WATCHED CSPAN IN YOUR LIFE

LIKE WHEN REPUBLICANS PUT KATRINA RECOVERY MONEY IN THE SAME BILLS AS IRAQ WAR MONEY.