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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:50 AM
Original message
We had a chance, and we blew it.
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 12:54 AM by Finnfan
We had a chance, with this election, to highlight the terrible things that George W. Bush has done to this country.

We had a chance, with this election, to clearly demonstrate that John McCain has supported ALL of George W. Bush's disastrous policies.

We had a chance, with this election, with two candidates left, to highlight the need for health care reform, common-sense diplomacy, and separation of church and state.

We had a chance, with this election, to show that the invasion of Iraq, the continuing occupation of Iraq, and the treatment of our soldiers and veterans were all short-sighted and WRONG.


What did we do instead?

We created Pastor-gate. And Sniper-gate. And Snub-gate. And Sexist-gate.

WE failed. We finally, after many, many long and painful years, had a chance to shape the message. And WE decided that the message was "The Jerry Springer Show."

I want ALL of us, Obama and Clinton supporters alike, to take a good, hard look in the mirror tonight. Have you been talking about the issues, or about bullshit?

And for those of you whose knee-jerk reaction is to blame the other candidate, STOP. DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD. Instead, look hard into that mirror. YOU are part of the problem. YOU will be to blame in John McCain gets elected. The blood will be on YOUR hands when this country completely falls apart.

The chance is still there. Will you take it?
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mcctatas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. may I offer a completely non-denominational
AMEN!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. Hillary can only win if Obama is damaged too much for the general.
Thus I accept no blame whatsoever.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. I respect you, but if you "accept no blame", then you are part of the problem.
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 12:58 AM by Finnfan
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. You're part of the problem. You're spreading defeatism on a Democratic board.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I'm trying to talk about REAL issues. What are you talking about?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. You're saying that the election is lost. If you were to say that when we have a nominee, you'd be..
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 01:04 AM by JVS
locked. Why should an exception be made now? You're being defeatist.

You're also being intellectually dishonest if you think that everyone is to blame when one side's only hope is to destroy the reputation of the other candidate so that the supers see it as impossible to allow a win.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. Same here. Blaming the victim of the Kitchen Sink strategy is bullshit
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. You have no blame that's for damn
sure. And neither do I, and neither does Obama.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. "massive retaliation"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5541539&mesg_id=5541539

Two very important issues came up tonight. Hillary's militarism of the ME and Hillary's refusal to protect future SS beneficiaries from cuts.

Some people are paying attention to the issues.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. She's pretty much an official neocon at this point after that display.
NT!

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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
48. Farcical
Focus on the message of the OP.
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's far from over
but your point is well taken.

:thumbsup:
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Bullshit. The media created it and we are victims of it. But some of us are fighting back.
Take that blame the victims shit elsewhere.

I ain't buying it after watching a network, which was given OUR FUCKING AIRWAVES TO MAKE THEIR SLEEZE MONEY OFF OF, to broadcast that sickening shit.

If the people controlled the airwaves -AS THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO- instead of multi-national corporations, this wouldn't have happened.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. What was different about that broadcast from what we see in this forum daily?
Please answer the question directly or not at all.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. I'll be glad to answer directly.
The content was no different at all. You are right about that.

But that does not do anything to disproving my point or proving your point.

The Media does what it does for a variety of reasons -none of which has anything to do with why people here in these forums bash eachother.

The Media has no dog in this race specifically. They are amoral, not immoral if you know what I mean.

They are selling soap.

We, the people, are fighting because it is a Primary, yes. But the weapons we choose to fling at eachother are the same because that is what the MEDIA have been blanket broadcasting.

Shall I go on?

Try reading "Amusing Ourselves To Death" by Neil Postman. It sounds like you would learn a lot.
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. If the "people-controlled" airwaves looked anything like GD-P
I think we'd be in even worse trouble.

Sort of a roundabout way of getting to the OPs point.
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TML Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. Play your victim card elsewhere
I'm no Wimpocrat. I fight back. I fight to win. I fight to hurt. Don't call my ass out.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Do you fight on the issues? Or on crap?
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 01:30 AM by Finnfan
Because the truth is, Clinton and Obama agree on most of the issues.
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TML Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. Both
In addition, it sounds like you're already throwing in the towel. I don't want to be in the same foxhole with you, especially when there's still a long time between now and November 4th.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. ...
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TML Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Don't link a 5,000 word essay
If you're going to have a take, make it brief and to the point.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. ...
:rofl:
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TML Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Why are you laughing?
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TML Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. You're flame-bait
I'm outta here. Quitter.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
13. We didn't make clinton lie compulsively and often.
I don't own that guilt. Sorry. She did that to herself by being caught in lie after lie.

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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
17. Uh, "we" didn't create things like Sniper Gate
When presidential candidates lie, people tend to notice.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. OK, so what about the real important issues?
Where does your candidate come down on Iraq, the economy, health care, jobs? How does that significantly differ from the other candidate?

More importantly, how does that differ from McCain?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. clinton's rank dishonesty isn't an important issue?
She's completely untrustworthy, what good would listening to any of her proposals do? We can't even know she's telling the truth about them!

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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. ONe question and I think, given your post, an honest answer is in order.
Would McCain be better?

Your answer will, I promise, be the final answer in this exchange.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Prez elections are basically about choosing the lesser-liar
The corporate media carries the water for TPTB and they don't want us discussing or even thinking about issues. The candidates all lie like crazy promising "universal" healthcare, great jobs, a "return to a great America," etc - and yet they never deliver.

That's why it's so important that a candidate not be seen as a liar.

It's just politics, and politically HRC crippled herself in a GE with her sniper fire lies.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
29. Um, where the fuck have you been for the last 15 months?
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 01:44 AM by BeyondGeography
These issues have been discussed to death (hint: the stated policy differences are relatively minor...they're both Democrats). The campaign has come down to who you trust to get the job done right and who has the better chance to win in November.

You can come down off your high horse now.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. "people tend to notice."
- and vote. Accordingly.
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
18. It's mid-April.
40 miles of bad road ahead to November. Long way off, and we're positioned well.

Of course the road is rough; it's suffered from decades of neglect and careful mining by the conservative hegemony on government and MSM discourse. We'll get there.

And the primary bloodshed indicates an energized party in a nail-biting season, not a party that is demoralized. The race to the nomination ends in a little while, but not yet.

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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. oh I forgot about snub gate... good times
it is pathetic how many faux controversies we've had to go through when REAL scandal is going on in this country.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
30. Sweeping generalizations are fun fun fun!
The point sort of gets lost with such an uncritical broad brush.

But, A for effort, I guess.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Ok, so let's get specific. Where do you stand on the issues?
How does that differ from where your opponent stands?
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:55 AM
Original message
The candiates policy positions are clearly similar. However this is what interests me:
Issues that interest me the most:
-- Open government changes
-- Trade changes / Tax changes
-- Open Diplomacy policy
-- Labor Stance
-- INDEX minimum wage to inflation, after raising it!

I know that part of Obama's proposals include regulating lobbying and adding public accountability to the mix by creating easy to access resources so that I can easily see what money is being spent where and by whom for what purpose. I know that Obama's plan includes putting an end to virtually all no-bid contracts, but requiring that all contracts over a specific low amount (something like 20,000$) be required to be competitively awarded.

I know that he proposes what he calls "fireside chats for the 21st century" which I absolutely love, where he would require cabinet departments to host broadband interactive public meetings on a regular basis among other things.

I know that when I read Obama's proposals for simplifying the tax code, I agreed with them. I know that I support his positions on trade and believe those represent change. I strongly agree with his policy and philosophy toward diplomacy, something that Hillary Clinton disagrees with.

I know that Obama will not only fight to raise the minimum wage, but also INDEX it to inflation which I strongly support. All of these things represent change TO ME.

That's what I know off the top of my head. Here's the detail that I couldn't commit to memory on the elements of Obama's Policy proposals that I value the most. This is not a pure cut and paste, these are personally selected by me as representing the specifics that I particularly care about:

Centralize Ethics and Lobbying Information for Voters: Obama will create a centralized Internet database of lobbying reports, ethics records, and campaign finance filings in a searchable, sortable and downloadable format.

Require Independent Monitoring of Lobbying Laws and Ethics Rules: Obama will use the power of the presidency to fight for an independent watchdog agency to oversee the investigation of congressional ethics violations so that the public can be assured that ethics complaints will be investigated.

Support Campaign Finance Reform: Obama supports public financing of campaigns combined with free television and radio time as a way to reduce the influence of moneyed special interests. Obama introduced public financing legislation in the Illinois State Senate, and is the only 2008 candidate to have sponsored Senator Russ Feingold’s (D-WI) tough bill to reform the presidential public financing system.

Create a Public “Contracts and Influence” Database: As president, Obama will create a “contracts and influence” database that will disclose how much federal contractors spend on lobbying, and what contracts they are getting and how well they complete them.

Expose Special Interest Tax Breaks to Public Scrutiny: Barack Obama will ensure that any tax breaks for corporate recipients – or tax earmarks – are also publicly available on the Internet in an easily searchable format.

End Abuse of No-Bid Contracts: Barack Obama will end abuse of no-bid contracts by requiring that nearly all contract orders over $25,000 be competitively awarded.

Sunlight Before Signing: Too often bills are rushed through Congress and to the president before the public has the opportunity to review them. As president, Obama will not sign any non-emergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days.

Shine Light on Earmarks and Pork Barrel Spending: Obama’s Transparency and Integrity in Earmarks Act will shed light on all earmarks by disclosing the name of the legislator who asked for each earmark, along with a written justification, 72 hours before they can be approved by the full Senate.

Hold 21st Century Fireside Chats: Obama will bring democracy and policy directly to the people by requiring his Cabinet officials to have periodic national broadband townhall meetings to discuss issues before their agencies.

Make White House Communications Public: Obama will amend executive orders to ensure that communications about regulatory policymaking between persons outside government and all White House staff are disclosed to the public.

Conduct Regulatory Agency Business in Public: Obama will require his appointees who lead the executive branch departments and rulemaking agencies to conduct the significant business of the agency in public, so that any citizen can watch these debates in person or on the Internet.

Release Presidential Records: Obama will nullify the Bush attempts to make the timely release of presidential records more difficult.

Close the Revolving Door on Former and Future Employers: No political appointees in an Obama administration will be permitted to work on regulations or contracts directly and substantially related to their prior employer for two years. And no political appointee will be able to lobby the executive branch after leaving government service during the remainder of the administration.

Free Career Officials from the Influence of Politics: Obama will issue an executive order asking all new hires at the agencies to sign a form affirming that no political appointee offered them the job solely on the basis of political affiliation or contribution.

Reform the Political Appointee Process: FEMA Director Michael Brown was not qualified to head the agency, and the result was a disaster for the people of the Gulf Coast. But in an Obama administration, every official will have to rise to the standard of proven excellence in the agency’s mission.

Fight for Fair Trade: Obama will fight for a trade policy that opens up foreign markets to support good American jobs. He will use trade agreements to spread good labor and environmental standards around the world and stand firm against agreements like the Central American Free Trade Agreement that fail to live up to those important benchmarks. Obama will also pressure the World Trade Organization to enforce trade agreements and stop countries from continuing unfair government subsidies to foreign exporters and nontariff barriers on U.S. exports.

Amend the North American Free Trade Agreement: Obama believes that NAFTA and its potential were oversold to the American people. Obama will work with the leaders of Canada and Mexico to fix NAFTA so that it works for American workers.

Improve Transition Assistance: To help all workers adapt to a rapidly changing economy, Obama would update the existing system of Trade Adjustment Assistance by extending it to service industries, creating flexible education accounts to help workers retrain, and providing retraining assistance for workers in sectors of the economy vulnerable to dislocation before they lose their jobs.

Ensure Freedom to Unionize: Obama believes that workers should have the freedom to choose whether to join a union without harassment or intimidation from their employers. Obama cosponsored and is strong advocate for the Employee Free Choice Act, a bipartisan effort to assure that workers can exercise their right to organize. He will continue to fight for EFCA’s passage and sign it into law.

Fight Attacks on Workers’ Right to Organize: Obama has fought the Bush National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) efforts to strip workers of their right to organize. He is a cosponsor of legislation to overturn the NLRB’s “Kentucky River” decisions classifying hundreds of thousands of nurses, construction, and professional workers as “supervisors” who are not protected by federal labor laws.

Protect Striking Workers: Obama supports the right of workers to bargain collectively and strike if necessary. He will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers, so workers can stand up for themselves without worrying about losing their livelihoods.

Raise the Minimum Wage: Barack Obama will raise the minimum wage, index it to inflation and increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to make sure that full-time workers earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs.

End Tax Haven Abuse: Building on his bipartisan work in the Senate, Obama will give the Treasury Department the tools it needs to stop the abuse of tax shelters and offshore tax havens and help close the $350 billion tax gap between taxes owed and taxes paid.

Close Special Interest Corporate Loopholes: Obama will level the playing field for all businesses by eliminating special-interest loopholes and deductions, such as those for the oil and gas industry.

Reinstate PAYGO Rules: Obama believes that a critical step in restoring fiscal discipline is enforcing pay-as-you-go (PAYGO) budgeting rules which require new spending commitments or tax changes to be paid for by cuts to other programs or new revenue. (Lots of people don't support this -- **I DO**)

------------------------------

Because so much of their high-level policy positions are similar, it comes down to which candidate one feels is better capable of effectively implementing those policies, leading the country, building the party and directing the country in the right direction.

You can talk about those things without degenerating into "political silliness" that we have endured so much of this year. I know exactly why I support Senator Obama, and I know precisely why I oppose Senator Clinton, and have talked about each without resorting to acting like a twelve year old.

Reasons I support Obama
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5014803&mesg_id=5014803

Criticisms of Clinton
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5036307


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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
44. I do NOT like his stance on how to use the WTO, we shouldn't use it as a club to force other...
nations to change their own laws or policies, its already used that way, and is a corrupt institution we shouldn't even be a member of any more. As far as the rest of his ideas, well, most don't go far enough, in my opinion, and, to be honest, I just don't trust him to have even half of that stuff implemented in 8 years.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
32. I think the problem is that both candidates are too similar on the issues, so style overrides...
substance here. Its basically a "likability" contest, which DU derided the Bush voters over for years because some voters voted for the guy they would have a beer with. There will be no debate on the issues when the fact of the matter is that people have their favorites, and nothing, absolutely nothing, will ever change this.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. ...
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. Nice, and I understand what you are talking about...
back during the last primary battle, I remember observing the cults of personality that cropped up then too, even commented on it several times. At this point in time, a candidate can do a complete 180 on an issue, to the point of actually being a position that some supporters absolutely loathe, and those same people will excuse it away, at any cost. They traded in their brains for campaign stickers, and stopped thinking rationally altogether.

I was never much of a follower, my parents can attest to that, so could most of my former bosses at work, teachers, etc. Hell, I tell my current boss at work to fuck off and die every day, for some reason he won't fire me for that. :)

Another thing, stealing an idea I got from the movie "Dogma" I don't have beliefs, I have ideas, you can change an idea when new information presents itself that disputes it, but its much harder to change a belief. Even though sometimes I fall into the English language trap of calling some of my ideas beliefs. I'm trying to stop doing that.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
34. The people who say "you're either part of the solution or part of the problem" ARE the problem
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 01:50 AM by melody
You're trying to seem above-it-all and sanctimonious.

There is only one mega-enemy in this fight -- the Clintons, the DLC and their continued attack on the heart of our party.
THEY ARE the GOP.

Incidentally, your naked attempt to subdue the base and make everyone feel guilty and thus disarmed, is rather obvious.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. So you're so passionate about it, you should be able to explain the major policy differences
between the two candidates.

Go ahead, I'm waiting....
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. There is only one -- he can win, she cannot
I was an Edwards supporter.

The only people backing Hillary now are the ones too selfish to care if we win, or those who want us to lose.
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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
39. every anti-war, no MIC PAC money taking Dem gets fried in the Media
for four fucking decades

you're blind or willfully ignorant if you think Clinton is a Democrat

I'm tired of the fucking noise

no one is to blame but you willfully ignorant fucks that sit here quoting the mainstream media as if it wasn't pure propoganda for transnational corporations and the goddamn war machine that wants us all in abject slavery

kma with your peacemaking BS

corruption and complicity in the Democratic Party are the problem

keep supporting candidates that are on the corporate tit and you get NOTHING

nothing is in fact, what you deserve... but the world doesn't and that's the pity
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Undercurrent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
43. We???
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 02:23 AM by Undercurrent
I didn't do any of the rotten things you listed. I live out here in the woods, alone with my jewelry bench, and deer and bear in the yard. The Clinton politics of personal destruction as usual crowd did this.

No guilt for me.
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 03:33 AM
Response to Original message
45. Thoughtful and honest reply.


We had a chance, with this election, to highlight the terrible things that George W. Bush has done to this country.

The issues that people would/will vote on in reaction to George II, are well known. It's why his poll numbers are eau de toilette , and not in a good way.


We had a chance, with this election, to clearly demonstrate that John McCain has supported ALL of George W. Bush's disastrous policies.

This was never going to stick. We would have to attack JMC on JMC no matter what because while DU might see him as just another George Bush, most of America does not and they already feel like they know him well enough to have formed that opinion.



We had a chance, with this election, with two candidates left, to highlight the need for health care reform, common-sense diplomacy, and separation of church and state.

Both of the Dems highlight health reform, both of them promote diplomacy before war, and while separation of church and state might be a big bell-ringer for you - it's a ticket to obscurity in November.



We had a chance, with this election, to show that the invasion of Iraq, the continuing occupation of Iraq, and the treatment of our soldiers and veterans were all short-sighted and WRONG.

I'm trying to think of how to do this part without making it into a poli-sci class. This is the REALLY short version. War powers are granted to the congress through the constitution but congress has collectively abdicated that power for over 50 years as the power of the executive has grown. Hillary's vote was a continuation of this half a century pattern and I think it was a bad vote and I strongly believe the congress must reclaim this power. Obama stated that he couldn't really say how he would have voted - http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=5651 - and he wasn't there but he has been there for funding bills, and they both keep voting for those damn things, much to my dismay. As for the treatment of soldiers and vets? The best thing we can do is get them home. Second? FUND THE HELL out of the VA and every supporting agency.



What did we do instead?

We created Pastor-gate. And Sniper-gate. And Snub-gate. And Sexist-gate.


"WE" didn't create any of these. Obama sat in that church and the video was available from their own website. Hillary is human and subject to memory confabulation like anyone else but - GOOD GOD - you wrote about this day in your OWN BOOK. I AM proud of her for apologizing and taking responsibility instead of just saying "I've talked about this before" or "this is just a distraction."



WE failed. We finally, after many, many long and painful years, had a chance to shape the message. And WE decided that the message was "The Jerry Springer Show."

You know, if you really want to change that you are going to have to break away and start your own country because election politics in this country have ALWAYS been like this. To be honest, they are historically MUCH WORSE.


I want ALL of us, Obama and Clinton supporters alike, to take a good, hard look in the mirror tonight. Have you been talking about the issues, or about bullshit?

Thing is, issues alone almost never decide an election. It would be nice if America were that clinical. It is not. Bullshit is a huge factor.


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goletian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
46. we didnt blow shit. JOHN MCCAIN HAS NO FUCKING CHANCE.
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 03:44 AM by goletian
i dont know why so many of you are scared of that fucker. hes fuckin WEAK!!!!!!!!!! hes the weakest possible candidate they couldve nominated. not conservative enough, not liberal enough, BLATANT flip flopper on MAJOR ISSUES, handcuffed to george bush BLUNDERS, OLD AS HELL, clueless on foreign policy and admittedly clueless on economics. plus, hes runnin for a THIRD CONSECUTIVE REPUB TERM AFTER A DISASTROUS 8 YEARS. hes got no fucking chance in hell. his formidability is a big illusion. WAKE UP!

im tellin you guys... laught it up, cuz hes a walkin, white haired, hopeless joke. either dem candidate would fucking destroy him in the general. why the hell do you think hillary is so desperately hanging on with the tiniest of mathematical possibilities? this isnt a reach for the nomination, our primary is the fight for the presidency, plain and simple -- the ge is in the fuckin bag, its a given.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
47. ..
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 07:20 AM by Window
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
49. You forgot the great Cookie Crisis of 1992
Tsk on you.

The bake-off with Barbara that Hillary WON.
This was a major triumph and cost GHWB the election.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
50. We get the government we demand.
We have failed to demand the progressive change the country needs, so our candidates are content to feed us platitudes. We have failed to look beyond the lies the media tell us, and so they continue to lie to us for profit--to our detriment.

This is our America. We made it...by failing to make it into something better.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
51. No.
Edited on Thu Apr-17-08 09:43 AM by YOY
We can do this. I will NOT accept defeat now. Not at this time AND GODDAMN NEVER.

I will not see my country sink into the dustbin of history because I would not stand up for what is right and take power away from the same goddamn people who have been ensuring that my country is a mire of ignorance played with the facade of freedom of equality the only way I can: with a vote and a hope.

GODDAMN NEVER!
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
52. Absolutely right.
Half of the posts in GD/P imply a nearly complete ignorance of the candidates stated policy goals.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
53. HUH? The Gereral Election campaigning hasn't even started yet.
There will be ample opportunity for Clintobama to tar mccain with the crimes of the shrub.
Don't worry.
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liberalpress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
54. EVerytime I bring this up
I am flamed and personally attacked. I think the most unforgiveable part of thei whole mess is we Democrats have made John McCain look presidential.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-17-08 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
55. It would be no problem if we had only one candidate
But unfortunately one of our candidates is apparently unable to do the math and see the writing on the wall.
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