Why isn't Kucinich polling well?

[ludwigb]

I see a lot of support for Kucinich here and elsewhere on the Internet, as well as in various progressive enclaves. He gets tons of play on magazines like The Nation and in the independent media. Yet he doesn't seem to be polling to well at all. Why?

I don't understand it. Kucinich is not going to get the nomination, but it seems to me he's got the 3rd biggest grassroots base. I predict he will suprise in the way Alan Keyes did in 2000. Kucinich finishes at least 6th and possibly up to 4th in both Iowa and New Hampshire--around 5% in both states. If he beats Edwards in Iowa (and I think this is a possibility), then Edwards will be under a lot of pressure to drop out. But Kucinich won't do well in the South (Sharpton will be competitive in SC) which will likely take away whatever momentum he has built up.

[Jack_Dawson]

1. Because he comes off like a geek?

Just speculation. I actually admire DK's conviction and more or less agree with his views (other than yanking everyone out of Iraq-pronto), but I don't think the country is ready to elect a guy who looks like the guy who got his ass kicked in high school.

But I will say, his daughter (the one I saw) is a hottie.

[bhunt70]

2. with no offense intended.

I agree but not using those terms.

To the american public I don't think he comes off as "presidential".

Many people look but don't understand what they are looking at and hear but not listen, if that makes sense.

Let me qualify that I do not adhere to this principle or condone it, but I think it just is that way.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

86. I think DK looks presidential

He looks like JFK on TV as far as I'm concerned.

[benddem]

3. I agree with above

Dennis is great...he has all the right ideas but he just doesn't look like a President...neither does Bush but that is another matter.
He comes across as young (small) kind of wrinkled..not polished.
I love him but can't support him.
:dem:

[calimary]

6. So do I. We live in the Age of Perceptions.

He doesn't look presidential. To that I'd be the first to say "BIG DEAL! So WHAT?!??!" But the problem is, to too many people in this country, looks count FAR more than they deserve to. That's why the pretty people get the good jobs, the better pay, the first promotions. That's why the pretty girls always got the good dates and the pretty guys always got the best-looking girls. That's why people didn't want to vote for Dick Gebhardt because he had no eyebrows, and why some people didn't vote for Nixon because his 5 o'clock shadow made him look sinister (of course, he WAS sinister, but looks shouldn't be the key to that. Look at Reagan, for heaven's sakes!).

Further, while I myself really like his ideas, especially INCLUDING the Get Out of Iraq NOW part, I don't think the majority of people in this country are ready for someone as progressive as he is. I certainly am. But I'm a minority, as are most of the staunch liberals and progressives in this little microcosm here. We ARE ready for such a candidate, but most everyone else in the country needs to be led along a little more slowly. Especially since we have such RAGING, foaming-at-the-mouth conservatives dominating EVERYTHING from talk radio to the rest of the media to the political groupings, etc., I think what is simply more practical at the moment is a "step-down" candidate, who's not so liberal that he sets off alarms all over the place.

And please don't jump in and say - but Dean IS that. Dean ISN'T. Nobody who rates that high with the NRA and is that interested in balanced budgets is. That's why I'm not surprised that somebody like Dean has resonated far more with people than Kucinich has.

Believe me, I like Dennis Kucinich. I've supported many of his proposals and called my congressman about them. I like his ideas and share them. But I just don't think he's ready for prime time.

[zanana]

36. He's short.

And that's about the size of it.

[JohnKleeb]

38. Hes only an inch smaller than the front runner Dean

So thats unplausable. Now hes not as heavy as Dean proportional but people say short not weight.

[Lobo_13]

4. I'd venture a guess

that he is supported by alot of greens who aren't on polling lists, that generally are pulled from previous voter rolls.

[Tinoire]

17. Bingo and also to others who abandoned the system

Thanks for an intelligent, insightful comment

[cryofan]

21. but the Greens are maybe a couple of percent of the voters

Over 90% of the dumbass sheeple here in America have never heard of the Green Party....unfortunately....

[ludwigb]

27. Sounds right to me...

Iowa and New Hampshire aren't big Green states, but the amount of grassroots support he's getting that used to go to Nader shouldn't be underestimated.

[loyalsister]

79. And those who are on the list...

have gotten burned by another candidate who had the same change of heart as DK.
It's tough when he's in a race with a guy who made the switch on the choice issue under very similar circumstances. (Gep in 1986 -right before his 1988 presidential run). He has since flipped on it and voted to overturn Clinton's veto of the partial birth abortion ban and voted for the bill that just passed. People who are experienced watchers- and on the poll lists- have a healthy cynicism based on experience. Some of the old timers have a tendency to view politicians as having identical motivations and inclinations.

[crushbush04]

5. Because politicians

that look, act, and sound like martians generally dont poll well with regular earthlings

[Zuni]

7. His personality and stage presence

are a big turn off. He really comes off like a kook with his mannerisms. He needs to relax---he always comes off like he is wired up, never smiles. Al Sharpton should work with him.

Many of his ideas I like, particularly his anti-NAFTA stance. But I think he might cause far more damage by a unilateral pull out from NAFTA than he realizes. Millions of Americans have jobs that depend on NAFTA

[DFLforever]

8. I think DK is more of a prophet than a presidential candidate

and I am happy that he is in the race because he is a visionary.

That being said, I think many of his ideas, such as a Dept of Peace, are at best highly implausible in the US at the beginning of the 21st century.

[Desertrose]

9. a thoughtful post followed by some really obnoxious replies

Like you put real thought into someof them, didn't you?

I am really amazed at the so called "thinking" on DU of late...


If we continue to live by polls and appearances ...guess we deserve what we get...and that'll be more of what we've had the past 4 years.....

Desertrose-shaking her head in amazement at the total lack of vision and understanding around here lately......

[bhunt70]

22. you are missing the point.

I dont think many of us are saying we agree with the perception problem, but we acknowledge that it is there. It's not fair, it sucks, it hurts...it's like being in highschool all over again...but it's atleast partially true.

[cryofan]

10. l LOVE DK...However....here are some reasons for his failure so far...

He will get my vote in the primaries if he has any chance at all by the time Texas primary rolls around. However, I doubt that he will be in the running by then...

Here is why his campaign has failed so far (IMHO):

1. Unprofessional staff--his campaign manager is a transcendental kinesthesiologist who has never before worked in politics. That is an outrage considering the fact that DK is the only real liberal in the race. Surely there must be experienced political operatives who would want to work with him. And ultimately, DK bears the responsibility for his bad judgment there...

2. The New Age-y, pacifist, hippy dippy vibe surrounding his campaign turns off a lot of people. Now there are PLENTY of good sound rational reasons for the stances DK takes. Many of the European countries are run along these pacifist principles, and the dividend is spent on social programs. Great result. And that is all pragmatist stuff, and that is how the euros approach it--in a nuts and bolts pragmatist fashion, not in a New Age-y, touchy-feely, let's take care of the poor fashion. The fact is that high social spending combined with a robust capitalist system, just works well.

(And, to digress, that preception of True Liberalism as wishy washy touchy feely stuff is one of the reasons why America is now behind the 8 ball when it comes to neoliberal and neocon globalist corporate capitalism as opposed to the rational populist social democracy capitalism the euros practice: we Americans have been subject to decades of propaganda that has backed True Liberalism into a very uncomfortable corner. And we are suffering for it now with out of control medical costs, and out of control corporate capitalism that is in countrol of an increasinly expensive military industrial complex that is used to pave the way for corporate expansion overseas, even while American jobs are being filled by foreigners here in America and outsourced overseas.)


3. THen there is DK's looks and somewhat offputting demaeanor in certain circumstances. We still have that old simian mammalian brain at work, back behind what we call humanity.


So, is it too late? Probably, but I still hold out some hope. If he catches on in the celebrity community, something could happen....

[Tinoire]

20. Points 1 and 2

are totally in sync with my observations.

The staff, while nice people, are NOT up to par with organizing properly. Lots of nice, capable people but nice and capable is NOT what wins you a rat race. A rat like Joe Trippi is. Rats like the people behind Clark and the rest of the DLC can too because they will stop at little and will be organized about it.

And yes, I too very much bemoan the fact that there are mostly normal, little people following Kucinich. What you need in this day and age are Yuppies. And you have to appeal to them on a Yuppie wave-length.

One other thing and I am going to compare Kucinich's campaign to Dean's here very succintly.

Dean was initially pushed (I don't mean in a bad way) by the Gay/Lesbian lobby and the Jewish lobbies- both very well organized, moneyed and well-connected to the media.

I still hold out also and have already contacted DK HQs with one small idea that I think could make a big difference.

Cryofan, please check your in-box.

Peace

[Tinoire]

47. Apologetic Clarification

I received a well-served PM from a good & respected friend for having used the terminology Jewish lobby in the above post. That is an inaccurate statement and what I meant by that was independent, mostly Liberal Jewish groups and individuals to whom Dean has high appeal for a large variety of social reasons & his willingness to follow Clinton's path with the Middle East and get everyone back to the negotiating table.

So damn, I wrote that one tired and am writing this one groggy from just waking up because it bothers me how that could be perceived.

The same applies to the GLBT lobby. Both were meant in the sense of 'loosely-affiliated' groups and not some monster machine out to eat us alive! I think Dean got the majority of the organized Liberal and Moderate groups who already have a system in place for advancing social change and getting their concerns addressed. Never in 100 years did I mean to imply that this was a bad thing or that there was something nefarious going on but we all have groups of various effectiveness. Dean just happened to get the best 2. I know the Gay groups are extremely proud of this accomplishment because we've had several threads here, one by Brian_expat (I think I butchered his name) to the effect of what a major accomplishment this was for the group and I know the Jewish groups and ALL the other groups who quickly signed on afterwards and helped are too.

On edit: I see that what I wrote was the GLBT lobby and Jewish lobbies, which is a little more accurate but doesn't make the grammatical sense I thought it did last yesterday. My friend! That should buy me a little rope! Especially when I point out that the more Leftist ones of both those groups are pushing our candidate! Back to Social Correctness 101 for me. By the way, y'all can talk about the Black lobbies all you want- I just wish we were more effective and better organized!

On 2nd edit: Let's change that to "highly-organized, connected, and moneyed GLBT and Jewish Liberal & Progressive groups". That sounds better & is more accurate.

[Clark Can WIN]

89. Sorry about being stuck here in middle america but.......

What the hell is a kinesthesiologist?

[tedoll78]

11. I'm not sure..

but, as a Deanie, I am very appreciative of his being in the race. He brings great topics to the discussion, and brings many people into our party. I regard him as something of a leftists' conscience..

[NashVegas]

12. Because He Comes off as a Socialist

or even a communist compared to most mainstream ('corporate governance is good') views.

He also comes off as a Pacifist, and the majority of the US just isn't into that.

[eileen from OH]

13. Kucinich

is a case of wanting-to-lead-but-not-enough-people-want-to-follow. I dunno why not. From what I've seen on DU I'd say that his followers really don't know either, because they seem to fluctuate between blaming that his message isn't getting out or the media ignores him or a variety of other reasons. But the fact is, that while he was in Congress and indeed led the charge against the Iraq War Resolution, he STILL did not catch on in the way that Dean, who began as an even MORE unknown, did. It's a great unponderable. Maybe you just have to face the fact that your candidate ain't resonating and there's nuthin' you can do. All the complaining about bias, or how-they've-been-done-wrong, or sign this or that petition isn't going to make him catch on.

As to scenerios whereby he could win the nomination. . . I really don't want to bash DK, cuz he has his points, but any momentum he has will be stalled, right here, in his home state. I'm from liberal NE Ohio, albeit to the south of Cleveland, and I can tell you that the passion that out-of-staters have for him ain't matched here. Outside of his own district, and possibly Cleveland (and I do mean possibly) his Ohio support just ain't there. I cannot envision him winning the OH primary. He's just not considered that seriously by all but the most dedicated of supporters. I could be wrong (it's happened) but I'd be curious to know just how many of his supporters are actually from Ohio.

eileen from OH

[MercutioATC]

14. I think Kucinich is a little too liberal, even for many Democrats.

I know quite a few who aren't comfortable with how far to the right he is...I know I'm not.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Media = exposure = higher poll numbers = media = exposure etc.....

Media exposure gives candidate's recognition, which in turn impacts poll numbers. Higher poll numbers increase media exposure, which increases candidate's recognition, which in turn drives the poll numbers even higher.

It is a vicious cycle that is driven by the media!

[Mairead]

50. Exactly IG. It's a media setup.

How credible is it that, for sound editorial and business reasons, both Time and Newsweek would decide in April or May to feature a guy on their August covers whose poll numbers, after a year's campaigning, were then still in the 2-3% range--statistically no different to Kucinich's, who'd just decided to stand in February.

Not very, I don't think. The fix was already in.

[cryofan]

59. Can you tell us more about the "clairvoyant" Time & Newsweek propaganda?

Can you please provide more details of what you mean?

[Mairead]

77. They both dedicated the same issue to him in August

But editorial decisions about issues are taken 3 to 12 months in advance -- 3 months is rushing it. Sometimes they can put out a special edition on a shorter time schedule, but not a regular edition--they sell advertising space based on the editorial theme, and they need time to bring it all together.

So that means the decisions to feature Dean the same week in early August were taken in early May at the absolute latest. But as we see from the chart of the poll numbers http://www.politicsus.com/presidential%20press%20releases/Kucinich/102903.htm Dean and Kucinich were statistically even until after the decision was already taken. It was only after the decision that the polls started to diverge based on the tv coverage given Dean. So how did Time and Newsweek both find out before it happened that Dean was suddenly going to get better numbers, when he'd spent a year getting nowhere? And be so certain of those numbers that they were willing to commit their publishing schedule?

Could the whole thing have been a stop-Kucinich move?


(edit: Oh, and Business Week also touted Dean in August, which means that's three major magazines who all decided to commit their publishing schedules in early May based on changes that hadn't taken place yet. Credible? I don't think so. )

[ludwigb]

78. Are you joking?

Time and Newsweek are news magazines. Where do you get the idea that editorial desicions about magazine covers are made 3 months in advance?

[cryofan]

80. don't think I buy the 3 months range

Do you have a source for that assertion? Obviously, those magazines do run cover stories with even just a couple of days of notice. I have seen them do that many times.....

[Mairead]

90. Ask them for their advertising/editorial kits

Yes, they're news magazines, which means they can insert stories...but they can't put together a themed issue on a short schedule. They use a gridded layout, but that only takes them so far -- they can't just drop a coordinated group of stories in and have it work as an issue.

Ask them for their editorial/advertising kits.

[Clark4VotingRights]

16. I personally don't trust the polls. They're a propaganda tool.

I think Kucinich's support is more widespread than the propaganda
polls reflect. I know lots of people for him. I see his supporters
at every event, rally, speech I attend.

In a sane country he wouldn't be too lib'rul at all.
He'd be ideal.

[Eric J in MN]

18. No one has gone directly from Congressman to President in a long time

No one has gone directly from Congressman to President in a long time.

Dick Gephardt is special because he was the House Majority Leader (now House Minority leader).

If Kucinich were the governor of Ohio instead of a Congressman from Ohio, I think he'd poll better.

Kucinich is my favorite of the nine, by the way.

[Jack_Dawson]

19. America Doesn't Elect Legislators to President

Three (3) in history. Good luck, Gep, Kerry, Leeb.

[iowapeacechief]

23. Low expectations COULD produce "Iowa surprise"...

...so Kucinich campaigners are working to pull it off.

I'll be glad for any showing that does not put him out of the race instantly. Sixth place keeps him alive but hardly confers traction. Fourth would be awesome--and constitute a genuine surprise by any appraisal.

I do not see Kucinich beating Edwards in Iowa, not in my county anyway.

Am I just helping damp down expectations? Nope, the polls do that nicely enough. How could expectations go lower than they are already?

Dennis doesn't pretend otherwise. The (Nashua, NH) Telegraph reported that he told their editorial board "his best chance of winning the nomination is if he finishes ahead of expectations in the New Hampshire primary and other early contests." They asked what he considered exceeding of expectations. “At this point, if I got one vote,” he replied.

I attended an exciting Gephardt event here tonight and saw many in the room who are reputed to support others, at least for first choice. With two weeks to go, we are still quite open. How can polls tell us what we haven't decided for ourselves yet?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

24. Great second post!

I do think there will be a Kucinich surprise in Iowa. Thanks for your support of Dennis and welcome to DU.. again :)

TWL

[iowapeacechief]

35. Kucinich surprise...HOW?

ThirdWheelLegend wrote: "I do think there will be a Kucinich surprise in Iowa. Thanks for your support of Dennis and welcome to DU.. again :)"

cryofan wrote: "So you are on the ground in Iowa, huh? Where in Iowa, if you don't mind me asking?"


Iowapeacechief replies:

Thanks to all who've greeted me. Your warm welcome feels good! I'm glad to be here, although I don't know what activity I could possibly sacrifice to make time to play often.

Yes, cryofan, I am "on the ground" and have been most of my 53 years. Married 31 years to a creative, patient special-ed teacher. Two well-grown daughters, three neat grandchildren. Other states I've lived in: California, Kansas, Illinois, New York. Business owner and bus driver. More than my share of "peace" jobs. Eight trips to Russia and one to east Africa. Participant in all Iowa caucuses (DJK is not my first "long shot"!). For more, go to http://friendlywork.com/.

How 'bout yourself?

So, TWL, are you "on the ground," too? If so, I'd enjoy comparing notes. If not, why do YOU "think there will be a Kucinich surprise in Iowa"? What's your evidence?

As I said, we Iowa "Kucitizens" are working hard for The Iowa Surprise. The recipe is no secret (combines science and stardust), but it is highly experimental. Unfortunately, the whole project is severely short of funds and running out of time.

[ErasureAcer]

48. His TV ads start coming out tomorrow...

that should help. :)

[no name no slogan]

76. Yes indeed they are!!!

Greetings from Minnesota iowapeacechief! We've got a very large, very active campaign up here, and we're pitching in however we can to help out in Iowa.

You are VERY correct about us Kucitizens being "on the ground" in Iowa. We have been sending carloads of volunteers to various northern Iowa locales for the last few months. And I'm happy to report that interest is growing by leaps and bounds EVERYWHERE we've canvassed. We've donated our time and money to help you folks out, and we'll continue to do so until the big day.

You are absolutely correct about expectations being so low for DK. IMHO, if he finishes in the top five, he'll beat expectations. This will completely take the whoremedia by suprise, who won't quite know what to make of this "fringe candidate" confounding the polls.

[Tinoire]

51. If you guys need help with Iowa

making calls etc... Let me know. We're there for you!

[cryofan]

28. Welcome to DU, IowaPeaceChief!

So you are on the ground in Iowa, huh? Where in Iowa, if you don't mind me asking?

[Desertrose]

55. same here iowapeacechief..if you need help...

:hi:
I have a few folks writing letters to NH & Iowa...let me know if AZ can do anything to help :)

We are in this together....PM me...or any other parts of the country...

Dennis is the true uniter...of heart and hope!

Peace
DR

[Green4Dean]

25. Kucinich's support is only from progressives

I love Dennis, and was among the people who urged him to run, after the prayer for America speech.

I have been to many Kucinich events in SoCal and see the same friends that I work with on peace issues there. his campaign has not resonated outside of the tradition progressive community.

i have been active in electoral politics for 20 years and always try to view debates impartialy...what goes through my mind when someone is talking is what would my brother or sister think of his presentation...

Dennis while I agree with everything he says, scares many people with his aggressive stances on everything...he needs to have a conversation with the voters before saying I will do this , this and that...he doesn't explain why.

Dennis is all or nothing...presidents need to build a consensus. its style...

We all know and trust Dennis, but he's to intense for those seeing him the first time...

[Dolphyn]

70. Non-progressives support Kucinich too

Here's a Republican supporter:
http://www.pulsetc.com/article.php?sid=700

And let's not forget he has been re-elected in landslides
in his Congressional district. Those folks in Ohio aren't
all progressives, are they?

I think people of all stripes will support Kucinich
because he is HONEST and CAPABLE. All it takes is
getting the word out, so that people know who he is.

[drfemoe]

26. I would actually estimate Kucinich's

grassroot's base to be the second largest, not 3rd.

[ludwigb]

29. I was thinking of Clark....

but you might be right.

[54anickel]

31. Not the article I was looking for, but pretty much says the same thing...

http://opednews.com/kall1203_kucinich2nd_alexa.htm

[tinanator]

33. absolutely right and clearly the case

sure seems like a well kept secret around here though?

[drfemoe]

67. It's only a secret

for time travelers.

ps.. Clark is the only candidate with a seperate area on his website for "grassroots".
As we say at the poker table, that's a big TELL.

[Northwind]

30. The reason

Is simple

The majority of this nation is not as "progressive" (I HATE that word) as Kucinich. We like to think around here that most of the country is liberal, that most of it agrees with us. I see bits of "analysis" posted here that claim that most of the country is progressive based on the fact half of those who voted last time voted for Gore, and a few percent voted for Nader. This ignores the fact that not everyone who voted for Gore was a far left liberal, just like not everyone who voted for Bush was a screaming Nazi.

The problem is that we have only two major parties, and that makes it seem like two extremists visions make up the totality of American polticial thought.

Most of the country is in the middle, with mixture of positions often stretching the gamut on both sides of the political fence. I should add that most of any country is always in the middle, as the middle is defined as where most of the people are. A mistake is often made in this forum regrading the nature of polticial landscapes. People here seem to think that the definition of left, right, and center are static, that there is some objective definition that remains unchanged throughout history, but the fact is that those definitions are in constant flux, and change from year to year, or even faster.

If in 2004 DK was to suddenly arise and get voted in by a huge margin, would it mean that the country was now "mostly liberal?" No. It would mean that the political landscape of the country had shifted left. The people who supporteed DK would suddenly find themselves occupying the center, and would be bewildered that they now seemed to be getting attacked as "too conservative" or some such nonsense from people fruther left, like maybe the Socialist Party, and those that voted right-of-center previously would find themselves being called Nazis.

[crushbush04]

32. I have rarely seen it expressed as well.

You are so right... A perfect example was the California recall. While many in political circles focused on on the states "progressiveness" many failed to get the concept of voter anger at Gray Davis. The New York Times, in a Sunday magazine article a few weeks before the election, was the only major newspaper that did an indepth feature on how deep the statewide hatred for Davis was. Conservatives are now suggesting they have a mandate for Californias agenda as a result of the numbers for Arnold and his conservative rival. It couldnt be further from the truth. Californians aren't any more conservative today than they were before the election.

The problem websites like these face is what I call the odd perception of self associaton. We sit by our computers and type away with mostly like minded people and similar veiws and develop this odd perception that what we say here is the general view or should be more accepted. Kinda like Dan Quayles campaign staff. " Sure Dan you have a great chance to be president..."

DK is seen by most people I know ( I try to have as wide a range of friends as possible and my girlfriend is a raging conservative) as some kind of nut. I really dont mean to be insulting but anybody who doesnt see this is living in that encapsulsed world of odd perception. As proof of my analysis ask yourself this question honestly..."Do I know anyone besides a radical who even considers voting for DK?" I admire zeal but this DK stuff is ridiculous.

Lets get serious, there are three major candidates with chances of beating Bush and they are Kerry, Dean, Clark. The rest should really pack their bags. Kerry was my personal choice but I don't think I have ever seen a candidate sink faster in public esteem. Dean seems to reflect the mood of the party, is a much better campaigner and I dig the fact that he is real. Clark is starting to get much stronger and I am beginning to think he is the best to offer a real challenge to the bushman. I could vote comfortably for either one.

[cryofan]

34. But Dennis's main issues are well-supported as shown in the polls

Dennis's main issue is universal health care. Again and again 60-75% of Americans want universal health care. Not exactly a fringe position.

Also, his other main issue is anti-war. Again, polls show that 30-40% of AMericans were and are against the war. Again, not exactly a fringe position.

The fact is that Americans' concept of a politician is driven by HOW THE MEDIA PORTRAYS HIM/HER. I defy you to go back into the news stories when the campaign first began and find me a substantial news media article that described DK in some detail, and also DID NOT portray DK as a long shot fringe candidate. That is their job. They is what they are supposed to do. Just google "matt taibbi" and "kucinich" and you can read quotes of news media reporters telling about how they planned to marginalize Kucinich months ago.

The media is BIG CORPORATE POWER/MONEY. How can you deny that? Dennis and his progressive cohort plan to make taxation more progressive to pay for social safety net programs, like heatlhcare, higher education, daycare, welfare, unemployment. It is called The Progressive Agenda. That Progressive Agenda would OBVIOUSLY be against the interests of those who own and manage the elite media. A lot of that money would come out of their pockets to pay for things that they already have. Remember, they are either rich or so highly paid that they are on their way...

This aint exactly Rocket Science....

[Freddie Stubbs]

37. People support the CONCEPT of universal health care

But once you put a plan down on paper you will find that many people will have second thoughts.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

43. you mean, after the heath care industry runs negative tv commercials

and the news media is full of attacks 24/7 on any universal health care plan, people will start to have second thoughts. Yeah, we've seen it happen before. Propaganda works!

[crushbush04]

40. I do agree...

That the media does annoint candidates. Is this a plan? A media conspiracy? I am not a fan of conspiracy inuendo but I do see your point. It really isnt rocket science some politicians are just "sexier " to cover than others.

But you ignore my main point of intellectual marginalization. Do you know anybody who is not a radical, who is thinking of voting for DK?

I think he is the Democratic version of Alan Keyes. He is hardcore. The base loves what he says. He is passionate and arouses the same kind of passion in his vocal supporters. But doe's he have any abilty to arouse the same support amoung the general population. Hell no!

You qoute polls as if to suggest that if the nation knew that DK were for all thses things he would be running ahead of everyone else. It becomes a "If they only knew me. If they only knew my agenda." deal. Maybe Willie Nelson could write a song with that title for his campaign. I almost hate to be dismissive but Its silly. Some folks are just not electable. Some just dont have mass appeal.

DK is not going to be the nominee. Its his right to run all he wants and his message is ok but its not gonna happen.

[JohnKleeb]

41. non radical for DK?

my dad.
I myself consider myself no radical.

[OhioStateProgressive]

39. he polls well in Ohio

matter of fact, i think it is odd that he polls poorly outisde of Ohio...Ohio is as well grounded a midwest state as there is

[Terwilliger]

42. eileen above disagrees

which is it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=55562&mesg_id=55864&page=

[OhioStateProgressive]

44. well, he is third, within MOE in every sci-poll released in Ohio

i don't live near Cleveland anymore...but the fact is that he has alot of support in Columbus, and Cincinatti, and Cleveland...concentrated support in those three cities means the rest of the state could hate him and he could still win

[catherineD]

45. 'cause people don't see themselves as progressives, and he's

"the progressive choice." Actually, isn't the progressive choice to vote Green? It's true that he hasn't gotten enough coverage by the press, but everybody but Dean could argue the same. I suspect that if the press had treated Mosely Braun as a "serious candidate" she, in particular, might be doing quite well. Kucinich has had 3 things going against him. 1. He appears to be too far left to be taken seriously by the media or voters. 2. He doesn't have a lot of money. 3. The campaign staff he chose do not have experience on national elections. They do not have the contacts or the respect of the national media, nor are they good strategists. They have chosen to depict him as the choice of the far left, with their aim seeming to be to get all of their Green Party friends to defect from that party as they have and join Kucinich, instead of trying to get the Democratic voters to like him. His motto should never have been "the progressive choice." His campaign should have sought to reposition our understanding of him as a liberal, not a leftist. But they don't seem to want liberals in the campaign, just leftists. They have marketed him in such a way as to have no appeal to the average Democratic voter.

[OhioStateProgressive]

46. because he ISN'T a liberal

he is a Populist Leftist, as many of us are

[Tinoire]

54. You should really just run a poll and save yourself a lot of trouble

They have chosen to depict him as the choice of the far left, with their aim seeming to be to get all of their Green Party friends to defect from that party as they have and join Kucinich, instead of trying to get the Democratic voters to like him.

You could not be more wrong. They have not "chosen to depict him as Far Left", the media, the DLC, and conservative Dems have chosen to depict him that way because nothing scares those three groups than a real populist which is exactly what Kucinich and his campaign are portraying him as. I've already taken you to task on this one and will continue to do so because it seems you are deliberately trying to create that impression.

You seem waaaaaay too interested in "wooing" DU's Kucinich supporters to Clark. You're wasting your time and should consider just running another poll to re-'strategerize'. I'm going to give it to you straight. Most Kucinich supporters have affinity to Kerry & Dean (closely tied). At best (and this in total fantasy land) your efforts would pump up Kerry's numbers so we could have the pleasure of choosing between 2 decorated veterans one who protested a war vs one who led a war :shrug: one who has a sterling domestically social record vs one who has intentions :shrug: one who has foreign policy experience vs one who thinks coordinating a war is on par with that :shrug and the list goes on and on. And Clark vs Dean? Even more disastrous.

I asked you in a P & C thread if you were part of the recent organized effort to "woo Kucinich, Sharpton and Braun" supporters over to Clark. You gave me some lame answer and yet today, what was sent to me?

Where's Kucinich on today's poll?
By Catherine

I went to a Kucinich meetup (where I discovered that I'm not really meant for meetups) before I switched to Clark. I notice a lot of Kucinich people at Democratic Underground who seem interested in Clark, or who have switched. So why isn't he in today's poll or the poll at least provided with a designation "other"?
---
Oh Dear.
You know what? That doesn't look very good. It makes me think of the Dean smear against Dennis..."I'm the only MAJOR candidate who came out against the war." Which we all know is a flat out lie. I think the poll should be removed and changed to include Kucinich because you're right, a lot of HIS supporters will support Wes. The poll should include Kucinich. I hope it was an innocent mistake?

http://catherine.forclark.com/story/2003/12/30/132548/71

[drfemoe]

66. What poll is this referring to?

The whole Clark campaign reminds me of some kind of cover-up ops.

Even his own supporters can't figure out which rabbit hole leads where:

This is the first time I'm posting in the community network/blog(sorry, I did some reading in this website and I still don't know what the difference is between a campaign blog and community network).

And listen to this glowing endorsement:

I had been thinking of jumping ship ever since Saddam was caught in Iraq,{12/13/2003} but when General Clark responded to a question regarding what he would do to those who question his patriotism with "I'll kick the s*** out of them," my mind was made up.
:think:

For more funny stories about why someone "switched" BRANDS of presidential candidates, see one of the Clark blogs.
Which one? :shrug:

[iowapeacechief]

61. Catherine, about your assessment...

...of the Kucinich campaign. You said:

"They have chosen to depict him as the choice of the far left, with their aim seeming to be to get all of their Green Party friends to defect from that party as they have and join Kucinich, instead of trying to get the Democratic voters to like him. His motto should never have been 'the progressive choice.' His campaign should have sought to reposition our understanding of him as a liberal, not a leftist. But they don't seem to want liberals in the campaign, just leftists. They have marketed him in such a way as to have no appeal to the average Democratic voter."

Is all of this (or any of it) based on your firsthand experience with the campaign and its marketing products? If so, I am sorry to hear it.

However, your picture simply does not square with my experience as a Kucinich county coordinator who has been a more-or-less active and plenty mainstream Democrat in the same place for 20-plus years. I grant that Dennis's staff is not the most experienced or best connected, but they excel in dedication. I don't see any intentional courting of the Left or shunning of Liberals--or others. In fact, when I had the privilege of driving Dennis for several hours last spring, I asked how he feels about being labeled "Left" and immensely enjoyed his answer, which started: "On what issue?" He quickly tuned in on my frustration with such labels and said things I certainly wanted to hear. My admiration hasn't flagged since, but my optimism has taken a beating as his campaign hasn't caught fire despite some very good efforts and moments.

Dan

[arewethereyet]

49. his platform is rather left of the public at large

his polling reflects this.

[Mairead]

52. As DK has said, when the idea of a healthy, educated, free, peaceful, and

prosperous citizenry is seen as 'too far left', then the USA is in very deep --maybe fatal-- trouble.

Who's stupid enough not to want to be able to see a doc when they need to?

Who's stupid enough to want their kids to go to lousy schools?

Who's stupid enough to want to live in a police state?

Who's stupid enough to want their kids to be sent off to war and come back shot to pieces?

Who's stupid enough to want to live hand-to-mouth for the rest of their lives?


I can't think of anybody, though I can think of plenty people who are trying to sell those ideas to people. Wrapped in lies, of course

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Desertrose]

56. my my ...a little touchy on this are we?

King Kucinich? :eyes: thats a new one....

oh yeah welcome to DU


He is not going to be the nominee.
wow...have you always been able to predict the future??


Peace
DR

[crushbush04]

60. please forgive my tone ....

but the King Kucinich supporters sound just like Dan Quayle supporters or Pat Buchanan supporters or Gary Bauer supporters or Jerry Brown supporters or the Alan Keyes supporters....and so on and so on and so on....

There are candidates like this in every election. Everybody knows they aren't contenders but they always create this small but really really hard core following that has them winning everything from the presidency to the head of the UN. Thus they convince themselves that they are in fact real conenders.

Lets keep this real. While I do admire spunk it drives me nuts to hear the Kings supporters try to reason his way up in the polls. When nothing could be further from the truth.

As far as predictions go, I never log on to DU without first calling Miss Cleo and then unpacking my crystal ball

[Mairead]

58. Perhaps it would help if you were to read more carefully?

I'm saying if you don't want to be healthy etc. you're stupid -- and if you don't want OTHER people to be healthy etc., then there's something actively wrong with you that goes beyond just being stupid.

Just how screwed up mentally would someone have to be to want other people to be poor, sick, ignorant, and bereaved?

When anyone says DK is 'too far left' because he wants all USAians to be healthy, educated, prosperous, and at peace...then I know for sure that there's something badly wrong in that person's head.

[Tinoire]

62. Longing for just what days of a good old police state?

Let's see, longing for the days of a good old police state to send your kids to an awful school...

And just under whose administration were those? You seem to somehow be equating Liberalism with police states. Not sure where I've heard those talking points before, but I know I've heard them... Could you help me remember? I'm in sort of a mental matrix today ;)

[crushbush04]

64. Read comment #52

and you will get my point...

then check for the wires in the back of your neck

[Woodstock]

57. I think the perception is that he's extreme

In America, it's all about perception. I think it all comes down to how they are packaged/managed. I'm not sure who his campaign manager is, but I suspect he's not playing the chess game as well as the others.

[Tinoire]

63. The media does the packaging according to the content

and corporate-controlled media really doesn't like someone who wants to take corporation to task and take care of the little people instead.

[Brian_Expat]

65. His record with women's issues is mixed and poor in many areas. . .

Women are a major part of the Democratic Party last time I checked ;) and many progressive women I know aren't too keen on his record on women's issues.

He also doesn't come off very well in speeches. I think Dean has the same problem but is fixing it up (shouting less, etc.) When Kucinich starts talking, after a while, his voice rises in pitch and he starts shouting. He's not too photogenic in that regard -- comes off much better in a one-to-one interview.

[revcarol]

71. Check out feminists for kucinich

or some such name. They chose the platform and points THEY wanted addressed and THEN matched them up with a candidate,and they could have chosen ANY candidate or NONE. They chose Dennis as being almost the perfect candidate for them.
If you use the search on the old DU, you can get this and look at it.I gave away my last copy, so I don't have the URL any more.

DK is OUTSTANDING ON SO-CALLED WOMEN'S ISSUES, plus others women have indicated are their top priorities, like education and labor rights.
Just couldn't let this misperception pass by w/o comment.

If I thought that DK was less than top notch for women, I wouldn't be busting my b*** for him. I've got no use for nice talk do-nothings.

[diamondsoul]

72. It's not "mixed" at all.

Poor in the past, yes, until about March of 2002. I suppose if you want to play a semantics game you could call it mixed since he called for decent education and easy access to contraception.

Oh, by the way, I'm a converted from PL to PC woman, who is generally considered a PC "extremist" since my personal preference would be absolutely no limits on abortion. (difficult postion to maintain if you love people and children, however it is what I believe is just) I've advocated for women's right for some 16 years now, and I support Dennis John Kucinich.

[Green4Dean]

82. Leading femist activists still bash Kucinich

When i run posetive kucinich stories on my website...Naral and NOW leadership threaten to stop supporting my organization. Feminists for Kucinich is window dressing , he could not count on the pro-choice activists...they don't trust him...

[ThirdWheelLegend]

87. Feminists and window dressing ...

First off, nice pairing of terms. :eyes:

I thought I would provide you with a list of the founders of Feminists for Kucinich. I wonder if they like being called window dressing.

********************************************
"
Barbara Ehrenreich, a political essayist whose most recent book is Nickel and Dimed: Surviving in Low Wage America

Angela Gilliam, professor and scholar of Black feminist anthropology and international feminism

Ynestra King, a writer and activist specializing in environmental, feminist, and disability issues

Gail Lerner, an organizer in the global women's movement, who has worked with several United Nations agencies and international NGOs in the U.S. and abroad

Grace Paley, a writer and peace activist whose works include Enormous Changes at the Last Minute, Later That Same Day, and Just as I Thought

Rosalind Petchesky, an international feminist activist and Distinguished Professor of Political Science at Hunter College and the City University of New York

Digna Sanchez, a Latina community activist in New York, president of the Aspirante Alumni Fellowship

Meredith Tax, a novelist, essayist and international organizer of feminist writers, whose books include Rivington Street and Union Square
"
*****************************************

Those are just the original founders of Feminists for Kucinich

More and more and more names at:

http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns/feminists_4_kucinich/

Side note: One of my best friends is a brilliant published author, college professor with tenure and a feminist. Her first choice by miles is Dennis Kucinich. That's my personal experience.

Later,
TWL

[White Mountain]

68. Dennis Who

Never heard of him.

[Dolphyn]

69. Media suppression. People don't know who Kucinich is.

Here's a poll from just a few weeks ago, indicating that
only 27% of Democrats have even HEARD of Dennis Kucinich:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031222/nym123_1.html

27% is by far the lowest of all candidates.
Second-lowest was Carol Moseley Braun at 43%.

And, consider that of those 27%, many have just heard of
Kucinich in passing, or have only read articles about
that stupid Internet date.

So, maybe 4% of Democrats know anything about his positions.
Of those, many have bought the media's "unelectable" line.

Most people I talk to, who are familiar with his positions
and his record, would like him to be President. That's why
I'm hanging in there, doing my best to educate people,
despite the low poll numbers.

[NV1962]

74. Bingo! He's simply blacked out

If more people knew Dennis Kucinich's proposals, his support would hit the double digits, stat.

But I'm afraid that "DK" is the target of wilful, malicious ignorance.

It's very little consolation, but... He's not the only one, who's victimized like that.

It's quite possible that Dennis Kucinich has a large grass-roots following. In fact, I wish that's true. But if it is, they need to become more visible & audible, out there: more volume please!

[AlinPA]

73. Because the media wrote him off from day one.

I can't explain what it is about him the media hates/or finds uninteresting. Shows you the power of the media.

[Green4Dean]

84. this is a copout

Carter, clinton, and Dean were unknown and overcame that..you need experienced media staff to get the media on board...David swansen is a great guy but not an expert at creating media coverage...It wasn't until deans campaign caught fire that he moved into the first tier and got first tier coverage.

[eileen_d]

75. Image trumps substance, unfortunately

For example, Dean's populist image seems to have trumped Kucinich's actual populism in terms of financial support and other numbers. It makes me sad, frankly, when I compare the two campaigns.

I think some people who agree with Kucinich are hesitant to support him because his ideals seem so impossibly far from what America has become under Shrub Jr. I know that's true to an extent for me.

I'm not an idealist where the 2004 election is concerned (which has a lot to do with my primary support of Clark) but I want to live in Kucinich's America. That's why I donated to both guys.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

81. Many of the detractors on DU boards have said things like

"He's funny looking" or "He doesn't come across well on television."

I guess we're lucky that the mass media didn't exist in 1860, when Abraham Lincoln, tall and gangly, homely, with a high-pitched, nasal speaking voice, was running for president. Most people had to actually read about his positions in newspapers and think about his ideas.

We're also lucky that radio and newspaper reporters in 1932 didn't have endless on-air discussions about whether someone in a wheelchair was up to the job of president. His disability was an open secret, but people didn't rehash it all the time or think about it in terms of being a job qualification.

This whole style over substance thing is extremely discouraging. I don't know how many times people have said, "I really prefer DK, but I think other people will like Candidate X better."

If you genuinely support Candidate X, fine. I know that not everyone agrees with Dennis' positions.

But if you do, what's to be lost by supporting him in the primary?

If he drops out before convention, he WILL support the nominee. In the meantime, his delegates will be able to have input on the party platform.

Why compromise before you have to? I don't understand it.

[incapsulated]

83. Because

They are afraid he would win the primary and get killed in the GE.

You are right that we were lucky that TV didn't come along until very recently. But it's a fact of life now, and this nation has never been more superficial as a result.

The new rules where set with the Kennedy/Nixon TV debates, and they continue. (But those results prove that it can sometimes work in your favor, heh.)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. But do we have to accept that

or should we try to change it?

This whole country feels like one big high school sometimes.

[Clark Can WIN]

88. hindsight is always 20/20

but he should have made more of his domestic experience, laid off the "department of peace" (just a little too precious for most voters) and not gone along with "find me a wife" publicity stunts.

I do like the guy but his chances were doomed with the DOP. The country is on a war footing and will have to be weaned off of it. Cold turkey doesn't appeal to Joe and Jessica Voter, at least while for the most part their sons, nephews and little brothers are not dying.