Primary Colors, the movie, and primary anger...my own. Trying to analyze them.

[madfloridian]

For the last few days I have tried to really analyze my anger toward the Clintons. It is not like me to actually feel this deep an anger toward someone I respected for so many years. There is kind of deep sadness that goes along with the anger.

It is the process of a mind having to reevaluate feelings, trying to figure how much is directed at my state for its outrageous actions about the primary, the lies told....and how much is directed at the Clinton campaign for using my state as a tool of their campaign.

The other day HBO had the movie Primary Colors on reruns. I watched it with new eyes this time. I read the book years ago, and I was angry...how dare Joe Klein impugn them like that. I wish I had not watched the movie again.

When this primary began we were sort of with Edwards. We did not have the passion we had in 04 when we supported Dean. Then we found we liked all 3 of the major candidates. We did not really become Obama supporters until Hillary Clinton decided to claim the Florida delegates...going against all party rules. Defying the chairman, the rules committee, openly challenging the authority of the leadership.

I posted the video here at DU from Meet the Press, in which Russert laid out the way things played out with those delegates. It got over 13,000 views. In that video the Clinton campaign was shown to have graciously accepted the party rules.

Here she goes again.
On Sept. 1 2007, she accepted and signed the DNC rules barring any other states having a primary earlier than the specified date. She did agree upon it before the election and now because she is losing, she wants them counted?
What about your signed pleadge? -
on MI and FL votes.

DNC Chairman Howard Dean
Letter to Democratic Presidential Candidates
August 31, 2007

As the leader of the Democratic Party, I strongly urge you to adhere to the 2008 Delegate Selection Rules...
The 2008 Delegate Selection Rules adopted by the full DNC at its August 2006 meeting clearly provide that only 4 states - Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina - may hold their respective contests prior to February 5, 2008. The findings of Non-Compliance included a 100% loss of pledged and unpledged delegates.

Hillary Clinton Campaign
September 1, 2007

Clinton Campaign
Statement On The
Four State Pledge

We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process. And we believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar.
Added: April 06, 2008

I believe it was sometime in January that she decided to push for the delegates to be seated. Her surrogates chimed in, the state's superdelegates like Bill Nelson and Debbie Wasserman Schultz. There were lawsuits, there were and are threats to Howard Dean that Florida will go for McCain if they are not seated the way they want.

I posted proof, their own words, that they voted 115 to 1 for the early primary to be relevant.

"If the choice is Florida is relevant and has no delegates versus being irrelevant and having delegates, I'd choose being relevant with no delegates," Ring said. "We did this so 18 million Floridians could take part in the presidential primaries, not so a few hundred people can go to a party in Denver."

...""It gives us a chance to really watch the landscape," Ring said. "When we're done Florida will be relevant."

I posted several good thorough scenarios about the process leading up to the convention. Included were the steps she had to go through to get those delegates.

None of the scenarios are likely. There is little chance she can get the nomination, but there is a more than a good chance she can bloody Obama for November.

I never took Klein's book that seriously, it just angered me. The movies was not as bad, but bad enough. Now sadly I am seeing things in the way the Clintons operate that are very upsetting.

I have done a lot of research, shared it, mostly did it to quell my anger. Writing is good for anger. But what I wrote never did matter. The media is still repeating the same old tired rote words they started with...that Dean stole their votes. And there will be blood if he doesn't give them back.

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

1. Forgot the link....

to the movie. This is a decent review.

http://www.historyplace.com/specials/reviews/colors.htm

[Armstead]

2. Except Emma Thompson has class

[Catherina]

4. True dat

:(

[PBS Poll-435]

7. :-(

[Catherina]

3. I like that movie more everytime I see it. It bothers me that I used to hate it

thinking it was a big smear job.

With time, what I resent against the Clintons is how they polarize people when they conspire to lie and we have to choose between proof and loyalty. Their ruthlessness and self-righteousness disgust me the most.

It's been such a long ride and I'm ashamed to think I once defended them so blindly.

Did you read Klein's book? I'm almost afraid to.

[madfloridian]

5. I read it, but would recommend not reading it right now.

It is fiction. But there is no need to add to the anger now.

I never felt this way before about them. Hubby and I have tried to figure when it got to this point.

[Catherina]

11. It won't change anything

You're a dear to warn me but I don't think it will change anything. I've been so angry at them for so many years that I don't even feel rage. My feelings to them are stone cold loathing past the point of any return. I had to work it out years ago after Bush attacked Iraq and I realized we'd never stopped attacking them since Bush Sr, that it was always just one long war. It's painful and I'm very sorry you're going through it now.

[stillcool]

16. the webs they weave..

when they practice to deceive.

[PBS Poll-435]

6. Strange that you should mention this.

I remember the media facination with the book.

I saw the movie for the first time about a year ago. I thought it was kind of strange having a British actress play the role of "Hillary." The movie made me like the Clintons even more. Maybe it is because they are human and I remember the bullsmut from the Republicans in the 1990s. Newt & the gang acted like such petty children.

[madfloridian]

10. Yes, they are human and I always trusted and respected them.

Now I don't. It is nothing I have done. I have seen another side. The primary did not need to be this ugly.

[McCamy Taylor]

8. Public perception of Hillary changed after New Hampshire when SOMEONE spread the lies

that 1) Hillary hacked the vote in New Hampshire 2) New Hampshire voters were racist 3) Obama camp put out the "Race Memo" which they gave to Huffington Post in which they included three key distortions of things which they claimed Clintons and their surrogates had done which were racist,

It made no sense for Clinton to interject race before South Carolina but it made a lot of sense for either Obama or for Republicans who wanted Hillary to lose and Obama to win to interject race at that point.

THAT is where people started to hate Hillary.

I am surprised that people can not remember such recent history.

The Obama camp has called Hillary's wins in Nevada racist because Latino's are racists (it is one their website) California because Asians are racist, Ohio because of an MSNBC splitter poll that could have simply meant voters are pragmatic (and the poll did not ask about gender) and they are laying the ground work to call a loss in Pennsylvania racist, too. Obama called Hillary's foreign policy experience "tea" drinking in December. His camp has propelled the Bosnia sniper story with repeated emails and public statements. He has selectively quoted a few questionable sources and used KO to make it appear that Hillary has lied about her entire foreign policy experience when in fact everything except the sniper fire has been confirmed. He is now trying to spread the "Screw' Em" while saying that he does not want any "distractions."

Obama drove Edwards and Kucinich, two men who really do not take corporate and lobbyist money out of the race by pretending that he does not take lobbyist money when it turns out that he will take any lobbyist's money as long as they funnel it through a state capital first. Obama is not different from Hillary Clinton, except that she is a bit more honest about her corporate ties.

Obama needs to be careful or the label hypocrite is going to get attached to him. This will not be a good thing since he is the likely Democratic nominee, and I want to see the Democrats win this fall. However, he is not running a very safe or sound campaign. He seems to believe that just winning the nomination will be good enough and if he loses the general he can blame America for being racist.

[Catherina]

12. Nonesense. Many of us hated them both long ago. Quit deluding yourself n/t

[madfloridian]

13. I speak for myself. It was the day she started pushing for FL delegates.

I have seen her lately lecturing Obama about his preacher, who is a good man. She has been pushing right wing memes against him.

I know nothing of NH....but she is dividing FL all over again.

[madfloridian]

25. Your last paragraph upsets me so much.

"Obama needs to be careful or the label hypocrite is going to get attached to him. This will not be a good thing since he is the likely Democratic nominee, and I want to see the Democrats win this fall. However, he is not running a very safe or sound campaign. He seems to believe that just winning the nomination will be good enough and if he loses the general he can blame America for being racist."

I am beginning to think that with DU posts, Armando's Talk Left board, Larry Johnson's No Quarter blog....not to even mention Taylor Marsh's hateful site..

I am beginning to think that the Clinton surrogates meant to divide the party irreparably.

I sure hate to say that, but I think so.

[MsMagnificent]

31. Clinton dividing the party?!

I can't definitively say this for Obama and the people running his campaign but the exceedingly vituperative and disrespectful comments from Obama fans are by far the most divisive tactics I have EVER seen -- from ANY party.
So much so that it is tempting to wonder if many are Freepers under cover, doing what they do so well: Divide and conquer. I'm sure there are 'rat-fuckers' in the mix, but sadly that's mostly wishful thinking... the great majority are supposedly *true* Democrats, as much as I'd like to disbelieve it.

Witness, along with many other pro-Obama sites because of the same tactics, the thousands of Hillary-backers (and neutrals) who have abandoned their sites because of all the hateful, highly aggressive, and yes sexist comments ("Bitch, Whore, , Ugly, Cunt"! From Dem's. Unbelievable.) Calling your fellow Democrats members of the KKK, for one, made my jaw hit the floor!

The basic *known* differences between Clinton and Obama are perhaps 1%.
Nor is Obama any type of saint, by far. He's neither an angel... he's a typical POLITICIAN. He is as politically aggressive as Clinton, weak on the issues, is a kiss-ass to Republicans and he SURE ain't no peacemaker! And don't even try that War argument -- Obama wasn't around to vote for or against the war, but he has consistently voted to fund it and keep it rolling merrily along.
Every. Single. Time.

That tells me all I need to know.


Because the two are so similar on the issues, I don't care which Democrat wins the White House and I'll vote for whoever wins the nomination. But the key word is Win.
The lack of respect, the viciousness towards other fellow Democrats to boot, is the most worrying. Elucidate your reasons why you're for your candidate? Fine. Respectfully debate between the two? Fine. But there has been little of that and even lesser respect. More, combativeness.
If any Freeper came in saying what these Dem's have they'd get the gift of a tombstone toute suite, yet here it's perfectly OK to rail in the worst way with the foulest language against those who back Hillary -- or those who even dare to say she's not so bad!

What I've seen is FAR beyond all comprehension and I'm incredibly disappointed and in despair for our party -- but most of all for those people who hate so fiercely. There are some deep, underlying problems in these people.


So what about when Obama gets the nomination (which he probably will)? What are all these haters going to do then? Apologize? LOL
And by the few who would apologize, all their vindictive attacks be forgotten? LMAO
Their candidate can't get elected without all the Dem's together -- and many true Democrats have been so alienated and chased away by language and behaviors that should never have happened. Distrust in ones brothers has been sown.
Time after time I hear Democrats talk about people accepting the result of their own actions, but they don't seem to mean they themselves do they?

As for me, I'm neither a Hillary or a Barry supporter -- I'm a DEMOCRATIC supporter. But seeing how absolutely nasty, and for so-called liberals how sexist a very many ersatz "open-minded" members are, I'm seriously reconsidering my belonging to the Democratic party
--and I've been a Democrat, literally, since birth.
I do not wish to belong to a group with such unthinking, inconsiderate, aggressive members; and such a great many of them! Therefore it's 90% sure I'm either going Independent or Green.
Oh, I'll vote for a Democrat beyond anything else if it's absolutely needed to keep an especially freakish Repuke in or if s/he is isn't a DINO; but you all have RUINED my party affiliation. My identity. You've shown me there is no appreciable difference between how Freepers act and how members of my still-beloved party deport themselves.

But that's minor compared to the major damage so many of you have "achieved". I mean, what's the danger of at least 4 more Bush-like years compared to trashing your fellow Democrats because they don't think exactly like you do? Priorities, people!! :eyes:

Good fucking job. :puke:

[madfloridian]

32. Wow.

I am finding the tactics I see from the Clintons alarming. I never expected that from them, and it caught me off guard.

Oh, well....

[krkaufman]

41. Sad but illustrative

To direct such a vile post at madfloridian demonstrates that you have no sense of decency or proportion. Where was any bile in mf's post? She simply expressed angst and disbelief, without any negative attacks or profanity. Would that you had done the same.

And madfloridian is one of the most valuable contributors to this site, diligently keeping us all apprised of the ongoing MI & FL crises, with no reward or compensation for her efforts, and is certainly not a deserving recipient of your uncontrolled rage towards unnamed Obama supporters.

As you've just demonstrated, it is not just Obama supporters who are divisive. (Not that I accept any part of your post or its premise as accurate.)

[krkaufman]

40. Yeah, especially given that Obama has repeatedly declared his losses ...

... unrelated to race. Obama cannot be accountable for the rantings of every person who supports him, or pretends to speak on his behalf, so DU projection of racism doesn't tar Obama, just the DUer(s).

As for the tenacity of the Clinton supporters, I can somewhat understand where they're coming from. Many -- not all -- have probably envisioned her run and ascendancy to the White House since before she won the Senate in 2000, even while she was still First Lady, and feel that Obama failed to "wait his turn" and that he is stealing her rightful legacy, as though she is owed the Presidency.

Giving up on that dream of 7+ years will not be an easy thing to get over. I just hope that Hillary is able to do so, and then bring her supporters around, as well.

[madfloridian]

46. I agree with you.

It is hard to give up a dream. There is though a sense of entitlement. Someone here said to me that Obama was not supposed to run this time, that Hillary was supposed to have two terms first.

Many are feeling that way.

I am not sure how this will work out at the end. :shrug:

[JeanGrey]

34. No. Hillary has always had a TON of people who cannot

abide her. Her campaign has only made it worse, and brought those who used to be in her corner into reality that some of us already knew, sadly. The truth is, the Clinton's are for the Clinton's, period. They are a political machine with huge unrelentless egos, who, I think, truly think that what is good for them is good for everyone. It doesn't matter what they have to do, because the end justifies the means after all.

[krkaufman]

36. Thanks for telling me when and how I began to see the Clintons' true nature.

I thought it was earlier, just after they'd had their asses handed to them in a third place loss in Iowa and Bill Clinton started distorting Obama's position on the Iraq war. I remained an Edwards supporter until he dropped-out, but that was *my* first recognition that the Clintons were beginning to start turning-up the heat and negativity.

But maybe I've misremembered. It's been known to happen, eh?

[krkaufman]

37. "It made no sense for Clinton to interject race before South Carolina"

Then you should probably check with those in charge of the Clinton campaign at the time, and ask them why they had started lowering expectations, in the lead-up to the vote, for the South Carolina primary because of the racial demographics in the state.

The Jesse Jackson comment after the primary was just the easy sound-bite icing on the Clinton's racial discounting of Obama's SC win, but they were doing the same thing in less obvious, less stark language before the SC vote -- which is probably why Bill didn't think it any big think to make the JJ reference, since the media hadn't criticized them for the pre-primary talking points.

[krkaufman]

38. "laying the ground work to call a loss in Pennsylvania racist"

Ummm... again, you might want to check the Clinton campaign talking points on this one. It was Ed Rendell, Hillary's PA frontman, who weeks ago said Obama would have a tough time winning in PA because some whites wouldn't vote for him.

[krkaufman]

39. "Obama drove Edwards and Kucinich ... out of the race"

How did Obama drive either candidate out of the race? Are you aware of some threats made by Obama that haven't yet been made public?

Or are you implying that their failure to win enough delegates to remain viable is Obama's fault? As a former Edwards supporter, I find your declaration ludicrous. But comical. Thanks.

[BlueCaliDem]

9. Omg! It's as if I'm reading something *I've* written!

I too was furious they had the gall to make a movie about the Clintons in such a negative way.

However, I began to dislike the Clintons long before the 2008 Presidential primaries. Actually, I began disliking them ever since Brad from "BradBlog" wrote about the mess of the Ohio votes in 2004 and that Edwards wanted to contest the results because of Kenneth Blackwell and his pro-Bush shenanigans.

Then I read that according to Brad, Kerry was called that evening by none other than Hillary herself telling him NOT to contest the results and become another outcast like Al Gore. This must've scared him off, I'm not sure, but it pissed Edwards off. They say that's why there's a rift between them even today.

According to Mega-Mouth Matthews, this has happened and he was the very first to ask if the motivation behind Hillary's call was, she had an eye on the 2008 Presidential elections. He nailed it back in 2004! Who would've thunk it.

Naturally, I didn't believe him and I only tuned in because of this new guy named Keith Olbermann who wasn't like the other talking heads at all. I am still a huge fan of Olbermann today.

I thought Matthews was blowing hot air again but damn if he wasn't right! She announced her candidacy last year...

I was for John Edwards first. I had trouble with that decision on account of his vote for the IWR but at least he apologized. Hillary still seems as if she's vomiting when she has to answer that "if I knew then what I knew today I would have not voted for the IWR". I don't buy it especially when she voted for a similar resolution just last year giving Dubya the authorization to launch a war against Iran!

Edwards didn't get the support he should've, and when his candidacy looked weak, I took a closer look at the junior Senator from Illinois and I liked what I saw.

I didn't dislike Hillary in the beginning, mind you but that changed quick when she first showed those tears before the New Hampshire primary. That turned me off.

Now I'm fighting myself not to hate the Clintons and how they're helping the Republicans as if they know they can't win the nomination so they'll just help McShame win the general.

I guess your train of thought regarding this election parallels mine, don't you think? :-)

[madfloridian]

14. Sorts like we think along the same lines.

:)

[The Wizard]

21. Hillary also

lambasted Kerry for the joke with a punch line about Bush that got spun by the reich wing into a slam against the troops (talk about distractions). Hillary is not a team player, and it's why she is losing to Barack.

[BlueCaliDem]

44. I never knew that. When did it happen? n/t

[Drunken Irishman]

15. I disagree about your take of Primary Colors.

In my mind, I think it painted the Clintons in a fairly good light. While the Statons were flawed, the movie showed them as understanding the plight of average Americans. They truly cared about the people they were fighting for. In fact, I always felt it was too nice to the Clintons and this election proves it in my mind.

[madfloridian]

18. The movie presented a better side than the book.

But the movie had some telling points about how people act.

[Prism]

17. I very much appreciate your work

Reading your posts over the months has kept me informed of the Florida delegate situation far more than the MSM ever could. So thank you for that.

[madfloridian]

22. I have been amazed at how my state pursued this with the help of the media.

The media in the state had their backs from the start. They repeat the same things as they did on day one.

Sadly the Florida bloggers, as organized as they are, have failed to confront the truth on this issue, allowing the blame to be given to Dean and the DNC.

It has changed our views of the state party and state Democrats....and of the Clintons.

[Jed Dilligan]

19. On DU, it's more like "Colors" than "Primary Colors."

"You don't know me, fool, you disown me, cool, I don't need your persistent social assistance any problem I have I just put my fist in!"

-Ice T

[madfloridian]

23. You just might be right.

What worries me are the blogs like Larry Johnson's blog and Armando's Talk Left which have turned into the equivalent of hate sites toward Obama. They are not about to just fold.

I can not believe what goes on at those sites.

[truedelphi]

20. The movie came out in 1998, which means it was probably produced in 1997

Did you notice that when the character modelled on BillClinton needs to deny having sexual relations with the young girl, he says "I did not have sex with that woman!" Same inflection as the famous statement Bill made.

This was some fifteen-eighteen months before Monica Lewinsky!!

[madfloridian]

24. Here is a perfect example of what Hillary's flaunting of party rules has produced.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5560409&mesg_id=5560409

Posts like that which are just not true....and sites like Larry Johnson's No Quarter and Armando's Talk Left which will not go away.

Her flaunting of the rules is causing party anger geared to make us fail in November.

She does not care...means she will get another shot in 2012.

[zulchzulu]

26. I'm convinced most of the MSM news commentators are dumb jocks

Yeah, they have to be "in shape". Yeah, they have to be skinny for the video. Now with HD, they have to have really good skin.

From people I've talked to who have gone to college to study journalism, there are the serious journalists of the future and then there are the Ken and Barbie Dolls that are trained for the Camera. They generally are full fo themselves, Republicans and jocks obsessed with their bodies. Political issues are too tiresome for them. They learn how to be really GOOD at reading the teleprompter while bobbing their head "just so" to add convincibility and "trustworthiness".

I've worked in TV doing news graphics and animation in the past and it was very evident who cared about the issues and who cared more about how their new nosejob looked...yes, the lighting people would have to fuck with the lights to make the lighting add convincibility and "trustworthiness"... at news meetings, the pretty reporters (male and female) generally didn't know jackshit about an issue unless it was in the tabloid void...there they were "experts".

So I think the root of MSM lies and such is due to the pretty puppets you see in front of the camera don't know or care about the issues. They certainly like the money they get, so the last thing they are going to do is piss off the News Director, who is getting squeezed by management to keep the ratings high.

It's never going to get fixed either. So your frustration with how the media paints Dean as trying to stop votes in Michigan and Florida will have to be addressed in other venues outside of the MSM.

[madfloridian]

27. Billy Bob Thornton was Carville.

I remember one scene...never mind. I did not catch on at first who that character was.

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. That era, where the Clintons did so well, is over.

A lot of it was based on smoke and mirrors. It was a way of life that we could never have sustained forever when there was so many people finding ways to game the system. It was those political contributions which allowed for political players to get away with things at the local and state level that hurt us regular peons, and in that regard, the Clintons would have to go a long way before I would believe that they really feel our pain and that they will commit to doing things differently so that there isn't trickle down misery when they give favors to special friends.

[madfloridian]

29. Smoke and mirrors and triangulation.

.

[Skarbrowe]

30. Primary Colors was a good movie. Summed up the feeling I had

about Bill Clinton when I first heard he was running for President. I think that was just about John Travolta's best acting. The movie did show the slime all around the political sphere though. That's why the Kathy Bates character does what she does at the end. And it shows why you should NEVER expect a politician to be anything more than that - a politican. You just might get your heart broken.

Having said that, about a movie, I will never forget how many people are all happy dancing about my right to vote being taken away. I understand that the top Democrats in the states played a game of chicken and lost. Maybe I should have gotten my disabled self up to Tallahasee and fought those crazy Dems. To be honest, I didn't understand the whole loss of delegate thing and that's my fault.

I just wonder, if it had been reversed and Obama needed Florida and Michigan...hmmm...I will always wonder.

I'm not a Hillary supporter anymore. She sniper fired me. heh I'll vote for the Democratic nominee. If anyone wants my vote to count, that is.

[Hippo_Tron]

33. I always enjoyed Primary Colors when you don't interpret it as a hit piece

But as a work of fiction. Bill Clinton obviously didn't sleep with his underage babysitter.

The point of the movie is that Henry grows up and learns that politicians, even the ones that care about people, are incredibly sleazy. Either you can accept that or get out of politics.

[madfloridian]

35. I did not see much of it as so flattering.

This primary has shown their colors.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. Again, I look at it as a work of fiction... it isn't about Stanton, it's about Henry...

And his realization that all politicians, even those that "care about the folks" are sleazy and do whatever it takes to win. That's the point. Not just an over dramatization of how sleazy Bill Clinton is. We already know that.

[man4allcats]

43. Actually, I've always liked the movie Primary Colors.

Even though I now see the Clintons in a less favorable light than I did during Bill's administration, I still like the movie. I am now inclined to think it will be better for the country if Obama gets the nomination rather than Hillary, but my honest belief is that neither of them would do more as president than perhaps buy us some much needed time to try to reverse the hold that fascism now has over the United States. The candidate we needed was Dennis Kucinich. The candidates we're being allowed to choose from are Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. At some point during Bill's term in office, I think I began to realize that the Clintons were a long way from Camelot. In my view at least, the movie version of Primary Colors made little if any attempt to disguise that. The Clintons came to us warts and all, and after twelve years of Reagan/Bush it was a welcome change. Perhaps now it is time to move on, but I wonder what we're moving on to. I regret to say I am not optimistic. The damage has been done, and I rather doubt either Hillary or Obama are inclined to repair it.

[DesertFlower]

45. i saw the movie too. the first time i saw it

i thought "i hope this isn't true". this time, i thought "OMG -- it is true".