Obama's relationship with a former terrorist -- how is that NOT a relevant issue?

[Apollo11]

I don't buy Senator Obama's defense that "he did those things 40 years ago" or "I was only 8 years old". What does the passage of time have to do with anything? :eyes:

This from wikipedia:
In 2001, Ayers published Fugitive Days: A Memoir. Ayers's interview with the New York Times about his book was published on September 11, 2001, and opens with his statement, "I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Ayers

Former terrorists, former war criminals, former murderers, former rapists. These bastards are ALL out of bounds for candidates seeking public office under the banner of the Democratic Party. ESPECIALLY if they have never apologized for their actions nor shown remorse.

If my neighbor is a war criminal and I am running for public office -- can I ask him to host my campaign meeting at his house? Is that OK because he was only a war criminal nearly 40 years ago -- even if he never apologized for his actions and wishes that he had done more?

I say that is IS legitimate for us to judge a candidate by the company she or he chooses to keep. And even if we are willing to look past it - we should not be surprised when the other side keeps bringing it up.

[mac2]

1. Sounds like Bush's excuses.

Ayers was a dangerous man with money. He had a history of buying them off. Both parties had candidates which he supported. Not that we should let anyone off the hook.

The party didn't seem to mind that he was connected to this man. Why is that? Their foreign policy agenda?

[izzie]

I think this man is now a teacher.

Maybe Obama saw him as a teacher only? We can not go after every one that knows some one that did wrong things. We would have to get rid of our govt from top down.

[EV_Ares]

24. Yes, he is a English professor at a university. What was Obama, maybe

8 years old when this guy belonged to the Weathermen? This is as they say, a comment or post from someone looking for something to attack Obama on and no matter what answer he gave for a ridiculous question in the first place, they would not accept his answer.

[cali]

31. Actually, he's not an English Prof

He's a professor of Education at U of I, Chicago, and a very well known and respected expert on early childhood ed, who has, among other things, advised Mayor Daley.

[EV_Ares]

38. Yeah, right, thanks, for some reason was thinking it was english. eom.

[Texas Hill Country]

108. thats because when Obama was lying about how well they knew eachother, he called him an English prof

[EV_Ares]

109. Guess he wasn't as close as you and Hannity thought then was he. eom.

[rodeodance]

71. In education circles--he is a traditionalist--yes

respected within many ed. circles.

But--his writings have been critiqued by the re-conceptionalist intellectual
tradition in education.

He has his followers as do other intellectuals.

[izzie]

115. What ever he is I am glad the 60's are over.

For me any how but I guess a good part or the country will never stop fighting the Vietnam war. Sorry state as we now have a new war that we should not be in to fight over. Must keep up with the times.

[izzie]

3. I think this man is now a teacher.

Maybe Obama saw him as a teacher only? We can not go after every one that knows some one that did wrong things. We would have to get rid of our govt from top down.

[FrenchieCat]

2. I'm sorry......it is a non issue.

If the man is a terrorist, why isn't he in Jail instead of teaching English at University of Chicago?

Are you guys crazy? I'm starting to think so.

The people from that group that were convicted were pardonned by Clinton. Why was that?

And if you want to talk about people keeping company, I can show you a convicted child molester in a picture with Bill and Hillary.

Is it because Obama is not White that you guys feel compeled to attach what everyone does to him this way? Is it that you believe that you can question him without inpunity, like about his patriotism, but that doesn't have to happen with all of the other folks.

in other words,

WHAT IS GOING ON WITH YOU CRAZY MOFOs?

[Apollo11]

20. Ayers never served time because

"All charges against him were dropped because of prosecutorial misconduct"

That's what wikipedia says. I have no reason to doubt it.

It doesn't prove that Ayers has never done anything wrong.

His statements published in 2001 (see OP) are troubling.

My point is that it is not smart of Obama to allow himself to be linked with this guy.

It does not look good. It is a stick that the GOP can use to beat him with.

[Zachstar]

In this country. If you are ruled not guilty you are not guilty PERIOD

OJ is not guilty. Sorry as regardless of what we believe he is not guilty by rule of law.

Jackson is not guilty.

etc...


So let the republican scumbags try this. It will be shot down faster then you can say "WTF"

[FrenchieCat]

30. Why don't you just hand them the stick.....and why don't you hold the stick

while they are beating Obama with it? Better still, why don't you just become a Republican, because at this point I see no difference, since you are so busy catering to their every whims and wishes? You are a scary ass person, that's for sure.

BILL CLINTON WHEN TO RUSSIA AND DODGED THE DRAFT - he was elected.

BILL CLINTON HAD A GENIFER FLOWERS WITH AN AUDIO TAPE OF HIM TALKING TO HER. SHE SAID THEY HAD A 12 YEAR AFFAIR - he was elected.

VINCE FOSTER WHO WAS HILLARY CLINTON'S ROSE LAW FIRM PARTNER "COMMITTED" SUICIDE AND SHE WENT AND CLEANED OUT HIS PAPERS BEFORE THE POLICE GOT THERE - he was relected.

BILL CLINTON HAD AN AFFAIR IN OFFICE AND WAS IMPEACHED FOR LYING IN A DEPOSITIONS - and his wife is running of office, and no one gives a shit.


So Why are we supposed to believe that there is a perfect someone out there?

Do you think that Obama being Black is already enough of a liability, so everything else has to be picture perfect? because if you do, than you are a racist.

cause it appears to me that white men can get away with anything, even murder.

It reminds me of Joe Scaroborough and the dead intern found in his office, and now he's just chichatting away on television every damn day.

Or the G. Gordon Liddy and Oliver North types that actually went to jail for stuff, and come out and all is good. They can hang out with the White Presidents and it's cool.

[earthlover]

49. McCarthy tactics!

Ayers is on the board of the Woods Foundation. So is Obama. Of course, the Woods Foundation is not a radical organization, it supports progressive causes we all should be proud of!

But Ayers, who 40 years ago was a radical and now is a respected educator, is linked to OBama because they are on the Board of a common organization!

Joseph McCarthy would be proud!

Guilt by second hand association. Questioning patriotism. Suggesting links to radical activities. Guilty until proven innocent.

[thoughtcrime1984]

51. I can make an entry on wikipedia. So can you. Do you eat everything you're fed

willingly, with a shovel?

[Hepburn]

57. So the DA trumped up a case against the man,

got caught doing it, and the bogus case was dismissed...and YOU think it is OK 40 years to sling this kind of crap around and declare him guilty? What gives with this kind of bullshit on a supposedly progressive forum? The deal is that if you are a REAL progressive, you are concerned about the DA and the fucking crimes committed against someone by misconduct in the system ~~ instead you are screaming about the man being guilty of something which was dismissed by a court of law.

Gads...can you get anymore RW than this?

[mckeown1128]

122. What part of innocent UNTILL proven guilty, don't you understand? NT

[cali]

32. FC, Ayers doesn't teach English and he's not at U of C

He's a reknowned expert on early childhood ed, and a Distinguished Professor at U of I Chicago.

[FrenchieCat]

35. Cool! Thanks!

:hi:

[Blue_Roses]

95. thank-you and well said!

I love your posts:applause:

Didn't you know though, your can't make this much sense in GD-P...it will look like we are actually using our good senses :crazy: :sarcasm:

[DemVet]

123. Why isn't he in jail?

He got off on a technicality.

The man is a terrorist.

Plain and simple.

Obama is consorting with a known terrorist...and a racist pastor. What's next?

[donheld]

4. That is really really quite stupid

I hope I'm not held responsible for things I did when I was 8 years old.

[Apollo11]

18. Please pay attention

Bill Ayers joined the Weather Underground when he was 25. Did not turn himself in to the authorities until 1981 - when he was 37.

Obama's association with Ayers is recent (during the past 10 years).

[FrenchieCat]

19. AND WHO KILLED VINCE FOSTER?

you really need to get off this horse.....or else go to freepervile. They like this kind of thing over there.

[JoFerret]

40. Stop doing their work for them

.

[DemVet]

124. Yeah,

let's call anyone who opposes Saint Obama a freeper. Well done. :eyes:

[rodeodance]

125. A RW smear tactic. Congrats. you are one of them now.

[Hepburn]

60. So 40 years after a non-crime was committed, Obama served...

...with a distinguished educator on a board.

Your point?

[GrandmaJones7]

83. "noncrime" ? Maybe the victims family's still care?

would you use that term to describe the crimes of Tim McVeigh, Stalin, or the cultural revolution? Why not the Kymer Rouge? (they had the BEST of intentions, right?!?!?).

-you are being an apologist for DOMESTIC terrorists (I am NOT talking about bush's war on foreign terror - please don't go there).

These people were NO different than Tim McVeigh. Stop saying it does not matter. The intentional murder of the innocent matters as much today as it did at Nuremberg and at the McVeigh trial.

Murder matters. And all the candidates should do as much as possible to distance themselves from domestic terrorists whether they blow up buildings in Oklahoma city or were members of SDS. They are the SAME.

[SOS]

94. How about killing police officers? Does that matter?

New York Times, January 22, 2001

Officials Criticize Clinton's Pardon of an Ex-Terrorist
By ERIC LIPTON
"An unusual combination of New York political and law enforcement leaders have condemned former President Bill Clinton's pardon of Susan L. Rosenberg, a one-time member of the Weather Underground terrorist group who was charged in the notorious 1981 Brink's robbery in Rockland County that left a guard and two police officers dead."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D06EED7133CF931A15752C0A9679C8B63

[PVnRT]

79. You should be going after Daley as well, then

Since he has consulted with Ayers frequently on improving Chicago schools.

[Liberal Gramma]

98. Man, I didn't know Ayers was running....

and if he's not, how is this relevant? Does what Ayers has done with his life since his association with the Weather Underground have any relevance? Apparently, he's not still a hot-headed anarchist. You sound like you think Ayers and Obama are conspiring to commit atrocities, and the facts regarding their "association" do not support such a statement.

[ProSense]

102. No, you pay attention: Ayers wasn't convicted of anything. This is America. Focus on this:

Bill Clinton pardoned convicted felons:

That referred to commutations by Mr. Clinton in January 2001, shortly before leaving office, for Linda Evans and Susan Rosenberg. Ms. Evans had been convicted of weapons and explosives charges connected with eight bombings in the mid-’80s and sentenced to 40 years in prison. Ms. Rosenberg had been charged in connection with a 1981 armed robbery in which two police officers and a security guard were killed, and was serving 58 years after being convicted of weapons charges in a 1984 case.

Convicted felons who were "unrepentant."

Wolfson also said that "Bill Ayers is unrepentant of what he did…and that is a difference, of course, between Linda Evans and Susan Rosenberg."

But when Evans was released after Bill Clinton pardoned her, she told the Austin American-Statesman, "I'm not repentant. That's for sure. I wouldn't go about it the same (violent) way." But "we still need solutions, and we still need justice just as badly as we ever did."

more

[flor de jasmim]

5. If you go down that road, all political candidates will eventually be eliminated

(oh, and BTW, you can start with the Clintons for having PARDONED people from the same group).

The point is whether or not the CANDIDATE has done anything which genuinely leads to the thought that he or she is a terrorist. NONE of the candidates have.

[Spider Jerusalem]

6. Obama's relationship with a university professor with whom he served on a non-profit board, you mean

What about Bill Clinton pardoning members of this same terrorist organisation?

[ecdab]

7. Geeez - so Obama shouldn't work with a charity because a guy

that wasn't convicted of squat is also on the board. And we should vote for Hillary because of this and because the previous Clinton administration pardoned two members of the Weathermen (the "terrorist" group that Ayers was a part of - who were a bunch of war protesters that used violence as a tool from time to time).

The lesson some Hillary supporters have taken from this - it's good to pardon people that have been convicted of terrorists acts, but bad to know people through charity groups that are associated with the people that were pardoned.

Isn't it special to see Hannity talking points here on DU.

[cali]

8. I admire Ayers a great deal

for his work on early childhood education. So do many people in that field. Ayers is the Distinguished Professor of Education at U of I, Chicago. He's served as an advisor to Mayor Daley. He's a respected member of Chicago society. He's made up for what he did in the sixties and so has Bernadine. I really deplore the attacks on Ayers. In any case, Obama's relationship with him is relegated to serving on a charitable board with him and accepting a small political contribution years ago.

[melody]

9. What about Clinton's friendship with George H. W. Bush whose father tried to overthrow the US?

What about all the criminals Bill Clinton pardoned?

[FrenchieCat]

10. Weren't there some Presidents who's father worked with the Nazis?

OH yeah...but he was a White man. Totally different. It was his father, not some guy from a charity board. My bad. :eyes:

[melody]

14. Oh, that, too -- Prescott Bush was a sociopath of Hitlerian scale ... but right, he was white

I'm astonished at the crap they keep slinging at Obama.

[Apollo11]

25. You don't choose your father or your grandfather

Even so - I would never vote for a Bush.

[FrenchieCat]

36. You choose your fucking husband.

What is Hillary doing with a disbarred attorney, known liar, adulterer? She chose him.

[melody]

39. Hillary chose to affiliate herself with the son of an anti-American terrorist

That is the point.

[EV_Ares]

42. For Christ's sake, this is totally stupid and it doesn't make any difference what Obama

said to defend something he shouldn't even have to defend in the first place or says about it. Those such as yourself would never accept the explanation anyway. Obama was 8 years old, Ayers has come out of that era and he has contributed more to our society and made up for anything he might have done during a very emotional and turbulent time in our society. Anyway, again, Obama's relationship to him is not in any way a negative reflection on Obama. Totally ridiculous to be bringing it up at all. Nothing but a hit job which is why Sean Hannity wanted the question asked so posts such as this would pop up.

Do you have some sort of a relationship with Hannity since you and he are so focused on this bs?

[Hepburn]

62. True....but care to point out what Obama did wrong in...

...serving on a non-profit board with a distinguished educator?

[JoFerret]

68. Um - the one Obama wants to work with?

This is all such nonsense folks.

[sandnsea]

11. Then there's that John Kerry guy

boy look at all the shady characters he surrounded himself with back in the day. And now he's endorsed Obama? Tsk tsk tsk. Must be a scandal there somewhere.

Do you have any comprehension as to the background of most of the activists in the Dem Party?

[McCamy Taylor]

12. So, was Monica a relevant issue to ask Chelsea? She got beat up here for not talking about it.

[cali]

15. she was largely defended here by Obama peep.

And the two situations aren't analogous. Did Obama go after Chelsea? No, of course not. But I gotta say, although I think Chelsea's response was right on, she has to expect all kinds of untoward questions- just like anyone else who's a candidate surrogate.

[Zachstar]

27. Yes

Clinton admitted he lied.

[Asgaya Dihi]

13. SO much wrong with that post

First of all, he was never even ACCUSED of being a war criminal, so your tossing it into things is creative at best. There are other and maybe more applicable terms for it though I won't go there.

Second he lived near the guy and sat on a board with him, big deal. Bill Clinton commuted the sentence of two members of the same group. Which strikes you as the stronger connection? Living near the guy, a guy who did something when you were eight years old and that you're in no way involved with, or actually commuting the sentence of two members of the same group?

This is a REAL bad subject for the Clinton campaign for a number of reasons. First, it's nothing more or less than right wing guilt by association, if you've met or dealt with someone you must represent everything they do, and second it tries to hit Obama for minor contact with a member of a group the Clinton's can be shown to have much a stronger relationship of favors owed or due with. They might want to think about this one for a while.

[Apollo11]

23. It was a intended as a comparison

I am saying if former terrorists (or violent radicals) are OK, then why not extend the same inclusive attitude towards other former criminals - including war criminals?

[Asgaya Dihi]

29. Looked to me like it was intended as a smear

If we're going to go down that road we'll have to examine Vince Foster, Whitewater, the Clinton pardons of members of the same group, and a whole host of other issues as well. He wasn't even accused of war crimes yet you brand him a war criminal, he was not convicted yet you brand him a terrorist, and the connections between the group and Obama are thin at best compared to the Clinton connection of having actually released members of the same group from prison.

I think we all know what it was. It was a double standard, a right wing smear, assuming that you could hit him with associations which I doubt you would find acceptable if the same standards were applied to your candidate. I don't know you from a hole in the wall so I won't assume one way or the other, but the arguments and logic I'm seeing in this campaign are nothing less than right wing. Between the "operation chaos" freaks and the poor fools who are willing to go along with them because in some twisted sense the ends justify the means to them I no longer care about the distinction between them.

When we use right wing tactics and smears we become the people we've been fighting all this time, we can't act like them without on some level becoming them, or more like them. In the end that's going to be the worst of the damage from this campaign, the loss for some of us of who we were.

[Hepburn]

63. If you don't know why that is fucked up thinking...

...I don't know what the hell to say to you. But it does explain to me why you are unable to see through Hillary Clinton.

[TomClash]

16. Why is HIllary in "the Fellowship" then?

Barack serves on a Board with the guy. It's no like their best buddies.

"I say that is IS legitimate for us to judge a candidate by the company she or he chooses to keep." Should we call for a list of the people Hillary has slept with since marrying Bill?

War criminal? By Clintonite Ken Pollack's account the sanctions on Iraq casued the death of 50,000 children. The UN says 1 million children died. Who's that war criminal Hillary keeps company with?

[FrenchieCat]

17. See, the problem that I have with all of this is

why does everyone now care about every single person that has ever met Obama?

Folks didn't seem to mind much about the Bush's.

The Bush family ties to the Nazi party are well known. In their 1994 Secret War Against the Jews, Mark Aarons and John Loftus use official US documents to establish that George Herbert Walker, George W. Bush's maternal great-grandfather, was one of Hitler's most important early backers. He funneled money to the rising young fascist through the Union Banking Corporation.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1006-08.htm

or Gov. Arnie

Arnold Schwarzenegger's Austrian father volunteered for the infamous Nazi SA and became a ranking officer.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1006-08.htm


WHY IS BARACK HELD TO A DIFFERENT STANDARD THEN THE RICH WHITE MEN?

SEN. OBAMA CAN'T EVEN SCRATCH HIS FUCKING FACE WITHOUT BEING ACCUSED OF DOING SOMETHING UNTOWARDS TO MS. HILLARY. YOU GUYS WANT TO FUCKING HANG HIM FOR IT LIKE THEY USED TO DO?

I'm pissed. :mad:

[dana_b]

91. Bingo!!

I know someone whose uncle was the unabomber. Am I know suspect?

[Zachstar]

21. Let see... He was not convicted.. So you have posted defamatory content about him.

He is no terrorist. Shoo Fly go bother someone else!

[Apollo11]

118. In that case - so has the Chicago Tribune

See this article I posted over on the Editorials & Other Articles Forum:

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=354161&mesg_id=354161

[bowens43]

22. You hillary people are unfucking believable

There is absolutely no difference between you , the freepers and the swift boaters. funny that I haven't seen you bitching and moaning about the terrorists pardoned by Clinton. Whats really funny is that you're apparently not bright enough to understand that it is bullshit like this that has sunk your queens chance of ascending to the throne.

You should be ashamed of yourself. You are no Democrat .

[EV_Ares]

26. I second that. eom.

[Apollo11]

28. Commuting a sentence is not the same as a pardon.

But in any case - I am outta here.

Please feel free to continue the discussion without me! B-)

[FrenchieCat]

33. What don't you tell us what the difference is.

24 years early?

He did pardon one of them.


Pardoned, but unforgiving
After being pardoned by Bill Clinton, former Weatherman member Linda Evans is still an enemy of American democracy.
http://archive.salon.com/news/col/horo/2001/09/04/evans/

[Zachstar]

37. So you post a defamatory topic then head on out without cleaning it up?

[shadowknows69]

47. Hear hear!

[ngant17]

34. Apollo astronauts were terrorists

"He has also served on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, a anti-poverty philanthropic foundation, since 1999. Barack Obama served on the same board from 1999 to 2002."

I don't see how that makes Barack guilty of association with some alledged Weathermen "terrorist" from the '60's.

Actually, using your 'guilt by association' logic, I would accuse some of the Apollo astronauts of being terrorists, since a few of them were bombing civilians in Vietnam when they were military.

[Gore Edwards]

41. Change ?

Apparently Sen. Obama had no influence in Changing the inflammatory rhetoric of his self-confessed spiritual mentor or his even more radical compadre and fellow board member Mr. Ayers. Unrepentant U.S.A. haters. Why should he be hailed as the candidate of change if he can't even moderate the radicals that surround him? Is he just another ineffectual orator who can look very impressive in a speech but when it comes to the back and forth of a debate, falls flat on his glib face? I think last night answered that question.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

45. stupid and ignorant. Ayers is a respected member of the

Chicago community. He's a reknowned expert on early childhood education. He's been an advisor to Mayor Daley. He's the Distinguished Professor of Education at U of I. He sits on a number of charitable boards. He's done more for children and families in underserved populations than most politicians. And I'm sick as shit of the stupid freeperlike attacks on him. Go crawl back under your slimy rock.

[EV_Ares]

48. Good Morning Cali, good to see you here. Also, certainly agree

with you.

[Gore Edwards]

50. stands by his bombings .Is there some part of that you can parse

Sometimes Bullies win. If you can't do anything to curb a monster, you appoint them to something, anything to stop them from wreaking havoc in your community, comprende homie?

[cali]

52. as I said, go crawl back under your slimy rock

into your shit filled hole, sweetie. Or return to freeperville or Stormfront or whetever little hell you normally inhabit.

[noel711]

56. Do you think before you make your statements?

Bullies win all the time... look in the White House right now.

Curb a monster? No, look at Cheney, there's nothing we can do with him...

Ayers is not a monster... he was anti-war in the '60's,
like many of us here. Affiliated with SDS, they chose the slogan:
"By any means necessary.." as a way of OUR anger at the ongoing
Viet Nam war.... They did not bomb to kill anyone, but attempted
to get the governments attention... they were very repentant when
innocent folks got hurt in their 'statements.'

Ayers, and Dohrn have redeemed their past failures by being
responsive to injustice in our country and devoted themselves
to helping others....

What is your resume that has shown such character?

Do you do your homework before you smear folks?

[RichardRay]

65. How old are you, 'Gore Edwards'?

I'd guess you weren't of age in th 60's. If you were, then I wonder what you were doing, then, to have so totally missed what was going on in this country. If you weren't then I'd suggest you go read a book or six, maybe talk to a few folks who were and reconsider your rhetoric.

[Gore Edwards]

113. Flattery will get you nowhere

I am 59 yo and advice from you only represents how desperate peoplike you are, as refugees of the 60's

[RichardRay]

116. Then I'll ask again, what were you doing then?

How did you feel about the war in Vietnam? About social justice in the United States? In the rest of the world? I don't know that I'm a refugee of the '60's, but I do know that I haven't forgotten those days or the lessons learned then.

What do you recall from that time? What did you learn?

[lligrd]

44. You Must Run Background Checks On Everyone You Come In

contact with. Don't join a charitable committee without checking out every other member. Perhaps you think Obama should run background checks on everyone who sends him a $200 donation too.

Congratulations, you win the most ludicrous post of the week award!

[Egnever]

46. judge away you still lose

[Warren Stupidity]

53. What crimes was Ayer convicted of?

Please list all of them so that I can accurately judge your position here.

[noel711]

54. "ARe you now, or have you ever been... a radical..?"

Joe McCarthy is smiling now.....
His legacy has succeeded....

[EffieBlack]

55. So Hillary should be questioned about her associations with union busters?

After all, she she served on the Wal-Mart board with at least one of the most effective and notorious union busters in the country.

Actually, maybe you should just get a roster of every board that Hillary served on, as well as a list of all of the attorneys in every law firm she ever did any work with. And, while you're at it, you should also pull the list of her entire Wellesley class. And every single one of her contributors, supporters and everyone who has attended one of her rallies.

That will give you a good starting point for running the background checks and doing any follow up interrogations - I mean, interviews - with everyone that Hillary has associated with so that you can be sure that she doesn't have any connections with people who might not be fully acceptable in every respect. You know, people who don't meet your standard of being a REAL American.

I know that's a lot of work, so maybe you can get someone to help you. Perhaps a Senator would be interested in helping you out by setting up a special select Committee to investigate the candidates' associates, supporters or acquaintances for any un-American activities they might have engaged in.

Joe McCarthy, of course, would have been perfect, but he's dead. I'm sure, however, there are some current Senators who would be glad to take up his mantle on your behalf.

Why don't you start calling around?

In the meantime, the rest of us will go on with with our day.

[Eurobabe]

58. Non-issue, unless you worship flag pins.

All explained here.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-radicals18apr18,1,5623804.story

[mckeown1128]

59. yeah becaus if someone is running for office they have to go

back in time and run background checks on anyone they casually know. :sarcasm:


Save the swiftboating for Rush and Hannity.

[DrFunkenstein]

61. Why Is He Hanging Out With Marc Rich?

Oh wait, that would be the Clintons. Right after his extensive crimes, as opposed to 40 years later. But I guess he can't be that bad if Bill Clinton pardoned him and his wife continues to donate tens of thousands to Hillary's campaigns and the Clinton library (no conflict there, natch).

[NOLALady]

64. What was Ayers charge?

[saltpoint]

66. Maybe all those extra shovels the Clinton camp ordered for the Iowa caucus

can be employed to shovel the steaming heap of bullshit in this OP.

[Voltaire]

67. So if Ayres evolved in a way suitable for your sensibilities. . .

And was not a terrorist by the time he met Obama would THAT suit you??? Or can humans never change. Do you Hillary supporters REALLY want to play the guilt by association game?? Do ya? Do you really wanna???

[futureliveshere]

69. Here is a post that explains a bit about Bill Ayers... Please do read it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5562154

[mainer]

70. I sit on boards with lots of people I don't know

How is "sitting on a board" make me a co-conspirator in their lives? I don't get it.
I also go to tons of fundraisers with people I hardly know. If one of them beats his wife, does that mean I'm also a wife-beater?

[rodeodance]

73. The point is that once again Obama tried to dismiss his association-had

he made a comment about it, it would probably been blown over.

He initially did this with Wright also.

[mainer]

75. Yeah, and I'd dismiss it too

Try asking me about the lives of my fellow board members. I couldn't tell you much beyond superficialities, esp. if the board only meets quarterly, which is how often the board with Ayers and Obama met.

So, someone you see four times a year at a board meeting with 7 other members constitutes a "relationship"? Do you know the pasts and secret lives of every person you see only four times a year?

Give it up. This is stupid.

[rodeodance]

84. I was saying the Obama could have put it to rest during the debate--nothing more.

[susankh4]

72. It will be relevant in September.

You can take that to the bank.

[Vinca]

74. The Clintons association with felons - how is that NOT a relevant issue?

VARIOUS ARKANSAS:

1) Roger Clinton: Bill Clinton brother; drug trafficking conviction

(Wall Street Journal "The Foster Test" January 14, 1994)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President.

2) Dan Lasater: governor Bill Clinton contributor and state contractor: drug trafficking conviction

(Wall Street Journal "The Foster Test" January 14, 1994)

3) Dan Harmon: Arkansas Seventh Judicial District prosecuting attorney and Bill Clinton friend and political ally: five federal racketeering, extortion, and drug distribution convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Arkansas Justice" June 13, 1997)

4) Bill McCuen: Bill Clinton political ally: former Arkansas Secretary of State; bribery, tax evasion, kickbacks convictions

(Wall Street Journal: Whitewater: "The Prosecution Rests" May 7, 1996)

WHITEWATER:

5) Webster Hubbell: Bill Clinton friend and political ally; Hillary Clinton Rose Law Firm partner: embezzlement; fraud; two felony convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Whither Whitewater?" October 18, 1995)

6) Jim Guy Tucker: fraud; three felony convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Second-Term Stall" February 11, 1997; Associated Press "Tucker Pleads Guilty to Cable Fraud" February 20, 1998)

7) William J. Marks Sr.: Jim Guy Tucker business partner; one conspiracy conviction

(Associated Press "Whitewater Defendant Pleads Guilty" August 28, 1997)

8) Jim McDougal: Bill and Hillary Clinton friend, banker, and political ally: eighteen felony convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Immunize Hale" May 29, 1996)
Died in prison March 8, 1998

9) Susan McDougal: Bill and Hillary Clinton friend; former wife of Jim McDougal: four felony convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Immunize Hale" May 29, 1996)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

10) David Hale: Bill and Hillary Clinton friend, banker, and political ally: two felony convictions of conspiracy and mail fraud

(Wall Street Journal "The Arkansas Machine Strikes Back" March 19, 1996)

11) Chris Wade: Whitewater real estate broker; two felony convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Hard Evidence From a Federal Investigator" August 10, 1995)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

12) Stephen Smith: former Governor Clinton aide; one conviction

(Wall Street Journal "Hard Evidence From a Federal Investigator" August 10, 1995)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

13) Larry Kuca: Madison real estate agent; fraudulent loans

(Wall Steet Journal "Hard Evidence From a Federal Investigator" August 10, 1995)

14) Robert Palmer: Madison appraiser; one conspiracy felony conviction

(Wall Street Journal "Hale Predicts Hillary Conviction" October 21, 1996)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

15) Neal Ainley: Perry County Bank president; embezzled bank funds for Clinton campaign; two misdemeanor convictions

(Wall Street Journal "Arkansas Bank Shot" May 4, 1995)

16) John Latham: Madison Bank CEO; bank fraud conviction

(Wall Street Journal "Smoke Without Fire" January 12, 1996)

17) John Haley: attorney for Jim Guy Tucker; misdemeanor guilty plea; tax fraud

(Associated Press "Tucker Pleads Guilty to Cable Fraud" February 20, 1998)

18) Eugene Fitzhugh: Whitewater defendant, pleaded guilty to one misdemeanor count of trying to bribe David Hale; is appealing a ten month prison sentence

(The Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "Whitewater Defendants" February 22, 1998)

19) Charles Matthews: Whitewater defendant, pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor counts of bribery, served fourteen months of a sixteen month prison sentence

(The Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "Whitewater Defendants" February 22, 1998)

ESPY:

20) Tyson Foods: guilty plea; $6 million federal court fines and investigative costs

(Washington Post "Tyson Foods Admits Illegal Gifts to Espy" December 30, 1997)

21) Sun-Diamond Growers: $1.5 million fine for illegal campaign contributions to Espy's brother

(Associated Press "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)

22) Richard Douglas: former Sun-Diamond Growers official; several bribery convictions and guilty pleas

(Washington Post "Tyson Foods Admits Illegal Gifts to Espy" December 30, 1997; Associated Press: "Lobbyist Pleads guilty in Espy Case" March 17, 1998)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

23) James H. Lake: Sun-Diamond Growers lobbyist; three convictions regarding illegal campaign contributions to Espy's brother

(Associated Press "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

24) Ron Blackley: Espy's chief of staff: financial fraud conviction; twenty-seven month prison sentence

(Washington Post "Tyson Foods Admits Illegal Gifts to Espy" December 30, 1997; Associated Press: "Judge Sentences Espy Aide to Jail" March 18, 1998)

25) Smith Barney: improper payments to Espy; $1 million-plus fine

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)

26) Crop Growers Corporation: $2 million fine for money laundering to Henry Espy's campaign

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)

27) Brook Keith Mitchell Sr. (with his company Five M Farming Enterprises: four counts) for fraud

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

28) Five M Farming Enterprises (with owner Brook Keith Mitchell: four counts) for fraud

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)

29) John J. Hemmingson, former head of Crop Growers Corporation: three counts relating to illegal campaign contributions to Henry Espy

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

30) Alvarez T. Ferrouillet, Jr., Louisiana lawyer and Henry Espy campaign finance head: ten count conviction

(Associated Press: "A Look at Mike Espy Investigation" August 27, 1997)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

31) Municipal Healthcare Cooperative: Ferrouillet-related company; perjury, bank fraud, money laundering convictions

(Washington Post: "Tyson Foods Admits Illegal Gifts to Espy" December 30, 1997)

32) Ferrouillet & Ferrouillet: Ferrouillet-related company; perjury, bank fraud, money laundering convictions

(Washington Post: "Tyson Foods Admits Illegal Gifts to Espy" December 30, 1997)

CAMPAIGN FINANCE:

33) Michael Brown (Ron Brown's son): money laundering; misdemeanor conviction

(Los Angeles Times, "Ron Brown's Son Pleads Guilty to Illegal Donation" August 29, 1997)

34) Eugene Lum: Clinton/Gore campaign contributor and colleague; felony conviction; money laundering

(Los Angeles Times, "First Fund-Raising Sentences Meted Out" September 10, 1997)

35) Nora Lum: Clinton/Gore campaign contributor and colleague; felony conviction; money laundering

(Los Angeles Times, "First Fund-Raising Sentences Meted Out" September 10, 1997)

36) Johnny Chung: Clinton/Gore campaign contributor and colleague; many visits to Clinton White House and Oval Office with mainland Chinese associates; several illegal campaign contributions, money laundering, tax fraud, and bank fraud guilty pleas

(Associated Press: "Democrat Fund-Raiser Pleads Guilty" March 17, 1998)

37) Roger Tamraz: Clinton/Gore campaign contributor and colleague; many visits to Clinton White House and Oval Office; fugitive from Lebanon embezzlement convictions; target of French government financial investigation; BCCI connections

(The Wall Street Journal: "Integrity of the Institutions" March 20, 1997, et. al.)
CISNEROS:

38) Linda Jones: Henry Cisneros mistress; conspiracy, bank fraud, money laundering, and obstruction of justice federal felony guilty pleas; sentenced to three and one-half years in prison

(Associated Press: "Cisneros Ex-Mistress Sentenced" March 25, 1998)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

39) Patsy Jo Wooten: Linda Jones sister; one conspiracy guilty plea (Associated Press: "Cisneros Ex-Mistress Sentenced" March 25, 1998)


40) Allen Wooten: Linda Jones brother-in-law; one conspiracy guilty plea

(Associated Press: "Cisneros Ex-Mistress Sentenced" March 25, 1998)

Excuse me while I sneeze - Ah, Ah, Ah Hsu!

[baldguy]

76. Doing the GOPs job for them, I see.

[dionysus]

77. shillbot manual page 74, section D; when given a shovel, keep digging...

[scheming daemons]

78. Knowing somebody and being on friendly speaking terms is NOT "a relationship"

You're ridiculous.


Hillary's husband PARDONED two of them. A much more relevant "relationship".

[truebrit71]

80. So why did Clinton's husband pardon two of these "terrorists" then?

..and why isn't THAT a relevant question too...:eyes:

[zulchzulu]

81. What about Bill Clinton PARDONING two terrorists?

You want to walk down that ambushed road, pal?

As for Ayers, he was on the same board as Obama with an organization that has hundreds of members. Are they terrorists too?

Seriously...

[IsItJustMe]

82. Hannity, is that you?

[1776Forever]

85. Fact check: Obama, Clinton and the Weather Underground

Fact check: Obama, Clinton and the Weather Underground

Yahoo News

Thu Apr 17, 6:22 PM ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080417/ap_on_el_pr/obama_radical_fact_check

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. - Sen. Barack Obama is defending his relationship with a former radical whose provocative words were wrongly linked by Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. THE FACTS:

Clinton's implication that Ayers made hurtful comments connected with the terrorist attacks is wrong.

By coincidence, a story about Ayers and what he called his fictionalized memoirs appeared in The New York Times on the day of the attacks.

The story was based on an interview he had done earlier, in Chicago, in which he declared, "I don't regret setting bombs," and "I feel we didn't do enough," even while seeming to dissociate himself coyly from the group's most destructive acts.

Clinton is correct that both men served together on the board of the Woods Fund, a Chicago-based charity that develops community groups to help the poor. Ayers joined the board in 1999 and is still on it. Obama left it in December 2002 after nine years.

Ayers was clearly more than someone Obama just ran into in the neighborhood on occasion. In the mid-1990s, when Obama was making his first run for the Illinois Senate, Ayers had Obama to his home to introduce him to others.

But a flub by Obama in the debate suggested he does not know him that well: He called Ayers an English professor. Ayers teaches education at the University of Illinois at Chicago and has been an education adviser to Mayor Richard Daley.

Ayers disappeared after the 1970 town house explosion, although he was not charged in that episode. He and his wife, Bernadine Dohrn, surfaced in 1980.

They both faced charges stemming from Chicago demonstrations in 1969 but his were dismissed for prosecutorial misconduct while she pleaded guilty to aggravated battery and bail-jumping.

THE SPIN:

Obama said Clinton was not one to talk about guilt by association because "President Clinton pardoned or commuted the sentences of two members of the Weather Underground, which I think is a slightly more significant act than me serving on a board with somebody for actions that he did 40 years ago."

THE FACTS:

Obama correctly sketched out the details of Bill Clinton's acts in the case. However, senior Obama strategist David Axelrod went too far Thursday when he said the two cleared by President Clinton had killed people. They were not convicted of that.

Bill Clinton created an uproar with New York lawmakers from both parties and with police when, on his last day in office, he granted clemency to Susan L. Rosenberg and Linda Sue Evans.

Rosenberg was sentenced to 58 years after being caught unloading 740 pounds of dynamite and weapons from a car in New Jersey in 1984. She was wanted on charges related to the deadly Brink's ambush but never tried on them, and Clinton's order released her after 16 years behind bars.

Evans was captured in 1985 along with one of the fugitives from the Brink's robbery, whom she was accused of harboring. Evans was sentenced to 40 years on a variety of weapons and terrorism-related convictions, including the 1983 Capitol bombing plot.

Although Hillary Clinton publicly disputed her husband's offer of clemency to Puerto Rican nationalists in 1999 because they had not sufficiently renounced violence, she is not known to have objected to his freeing of Rosenberg and Evans in 2001.

[smoogatz]

86. When DUers use Hannity's bullshit talking points to attack Democrats

it really makes me wonder what their real motivations are. Which is why I'm alerting this thread.

[Triana]

87. Hillary/Clinton PARDONED people from the same group!!!

:wtf: IS your point?

Hypocrite, much?

[blm]

88. WHO deep-sixed all the outstanding matters in BCCI, including the funding of global terrorism

through illegal armsdealing, drugrunning and nuclear proliferation operations of Poppy Bush and his cronies Jackson Stephens, Dubai and Saudi royals, the Bin Ladens, Marc Rich, AQ Khan, Adnan Kashoggi, James Bath, et al, and did so throughout the 90s?

Care to answer truthfully?

[azmouse]

89. We should all vet absolutely everyone we meet before we even shake their hand.

God forbid we so much as come in contact with someone who has an unsavory past. :eyes:

[Bensthename]

90. Keep talking about this nothing issues. Obama's polls keep rising from it.

[redqueen]

92. How many environmental activists are now called "Terrorists"?

How many other peace activists?

Let's get those names out there, and see who's associated with them, and get this smear campaign into gear!

:eyes:

[Kittycat]

93. Oh Noes!!! Obama can't serve on Charity boards that help the diadvantaged

Because of something someone else did 40 years ago!!! This has no bearing on Obama. I really wish people would get a life. You cannot control everyone and everything you come in contact with, and he should not be criticized for being on a "board" with the guy - when the "board" oversaw a charity to help rebuild poor areas, and assist needy families.

[mac2]

104. You don't see Obama or Hillary speaking or marching

for the poor or freedom issues either. Immigrants yes.

[Armstead]

96. It's a relevant question for 2 minutes

Okay Obama knows this guy who has a controversial history.

What was the relationship? he was a member of the community who was one of many supporters of Obama in local elections. Obama and he served on a charitable board together.

The Woods Foundation Board currently includes (note that it includes several corporate types):

Board of Directors and Officers

Laura S. Washington, Board Chair*
Ida B. Wells-Barnett University Professor and Fellow of the DePaul Humanities Center

Jesus G. Garcia, Vice Chair*
Executive Director, Little Village Community Development Corporation

William C. Ayers
Distinguished Professor of Education, University of Illinois at Chicago

Lee Bey
Director of Media and Governmental Affairs, Skidmore, Owings, & Merrill LLP

Doris Salomon Chagin
Category Manager - Ethnic Markets, BP Products North America

Beth E. Richie
Professor and Head of the Department of African American Studies, University of Illinois at Chicago

Patrick M. Sheahan
Executive Director, Public Affairs, UBS Investment Bank

Charles N. Wheatley
President, Sahara Enterprises, Inc.

Lucia Woods Lindley

Obama may have found him to be interesting company, and perhaps may have chatted or had some social encounters. Do you require a test of everyone you have ever had a social relationship with, even relatively trivial ones.

5 minutes are up.

Now wanna talk about who Bill Clinton hangs out with?

[kenny blankenship]

97. 8 yrs old yeah he was probably the MASTERMIND! They never suspect the children do they

Nice little children who wouldn't hurt a fly, playing with their tonka trucks and GI Joe dolls, selling lemonade from a sidewalk stand, and all the while you think they're innocently reading Dick & Jane books or playing hopscotch they're actually plotting...MUUUR-DERRR

See Dick pass the C4 and microfilm to his "Comrade" Jane. Well it ends today - thanks to your insight, Apollo11!

[dpbrown]

99. Democrats aren't allowed to question the Messiah - he'll go down in flames in the general instead

There is no more rational consideration of Senator Obama's qualifications anymore.

[lligrd]

107. Not To Worry, I'm Sure McCain Has Sat On Boards With Many

more than Obama has. If this is all they have, it is laughable. I doubt McCain is willing to make as big a fool of himself as Hillary has been. Then again, there is that 100 year war.

[Vinca]

100. If "the terrorist" is so horrible, why did Bill Clinton pardon his associates? nt

[undeterred]

101. Bobby Rush was a radical in the 60's and he is now a boring Congressman

that Obama ran against. Should all 670,000 people in that district be dumped in Lake Michigan?

[goletian]

103. HILLARYS VOTE CONTRIBUTED TO THE DEATHS OF 4000+ AMERICANS

she wasnt 8 years old when she voted. did ayers contribute to that many deaths?

[killbotfactory]

105. Right... a terrorist group that never killed anybody

I think that's a first in world history.

[Apollo11]

120. Not true. People were killed and houses were blown up.

From Chicago Tribune (April 20, 2008)

Obama minimized his relationship by acknowledging only that he knows Ayers. But they have quite a bit more of a connection than that. He's appeared on panels with Ayers, served on a foundation board with him and held a 1995 campaign event at the home of Ayers and his wife, fellow former terrorist Bernardine Dohrn. Ayers even gave money to one of his campaigns.

It's not as though Ayers and Dohrn have denied or repudiated their crimes. After emerging from years in hiding, they escaped federal prosecution because of government misconduct in gathering evidence, but they don't pretend they were innocent. In 2001, Ayers said, "I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough."

Dohrn has likewise rationalized the explosions, claiming that "our acts of resistance were tiny and symbolic." She even went to prison for refusing to testify about an armored-car robbery involving her confederates. That crime was not tiny or symbolic to the two police officers or the security guard who were shot to death in the process.

All this is public record, and Barack Obama would have to be in a coma not to know it. Yet he showed no qualms about consorting with Ayers and Dohrn.


From wikipedia

The Greenwich Village townhouse explosion was a sudden chain of dynamite blasts that occurred during the construction of a bomb in the basement of a four-story townhouse at 18 West 11th Street in New York City's Greenwich Village. Three of the bomb's builders were killed and the townhouse destroyed.

Shortly before noon on Friday March 6, 1970, members of the Weather Underground were building a nail bomb for use in an attack on the US Military. The bomb was intended to be set off at a noncommissioned officers dance at the Fort Dix, New Jersey Army base later that night. The bomb, a makeshift anti-personnel weapon studded with roofing nails, exploded prematurely, killing Theodore Gold, Diana Oughton, and Terry Robbins. Weather Underground members Kathy Boudin and Cathlyn Wilkerson, upstairs at the time of the blast, were left stunned and bleeding. They were led from the wreckage by rescue workers and disappeared before they could be questioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Village_townhouse_explosion

[stillcool]

106. "Relationship"?

If at first you don't succeed try and try again?

ABC News
Clinton Camp Pushes O-Bomber Links: Ignores Her Own Radical Ties
Clinton, Obama Spar on Ties to Radicals
By JUSTIN ROOD

Feb. 22, 2008—

The Hillary Clinton campaign pushed to reporters today stories about Barack Obama and his ties to former members of a radical domestic terrorist group -- but did not note that as president, Clinton's husband pardoned more than a dozen convicted violent radicals, including a member of the same group mentioned in the Obama stories.

"Wonder what the Republicans will do with this issue," mused Clinton spokesman Phil Singer in one e-mail to the media, containing a New York Sun article reporting a $200 contribution from William Ayers, a founding member of the Weather Underground, to Obama in 2001. (Obama's ties to the radical group first surfaced last week in a Bloomberg News article.)

In a separate e-mail, Singer forwarded an article from Politico.com reporting on a 1995 event at a private home that brought Obama together with Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, another former member of the radical group.

Opting to leave any attacks on the issue to the GOP may be wise, as attacks from Clinton could backfire. In his final day in office, President Clinton pardoned another one-time member of the Weather Underground, Susan L. Rosenberg, after she had served 16 years in prison on federal charges.

Rosenberg had been arrested in 1984 while unloading 740 pounds of dynamite, a submachine gun and other weapons from the back of a car.
-------------------------------
And in 1999, President Clinton also pardoned 16 violent Puerto Rican nationalists responsible for more than 100 bombings of U.S. political and military installations, after they promised to renounce violence. The attacks reportedly killed six people and wounded dozens more. In justifying the pardons, President Clinton noted none of the men had been convicted of crimes that resulted in death or injuries.

Contacted by phone Friday morning, spokesman Singer declined to comment for the record for this article.

Copyright © 2008 ABC News Internet Ventures
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=4330128

[apocalypsehow]

110. Hillary "kept company" with a child rapist in the '70s, and zealously represented him - defend it.

See how that silly "guilt by association" meme works?

But keep posting rancid bilge like this: Karl Rove applauds you.

:thumbsdown:

[Jed Dilligan]

111. Would you like ketchup with your fail?

[InfiniteNether]

112. It's not relevant because nobody gives a flying fuck.

[LeftishBrit]

114. Well, I suppose I'm a terrorist-supporter too then..

as I've read a couple of Ayers' books on education in connection with my job.

I am constantly amazed at the number of RW talking-points that come up in connection with BOTH Dem candidates.

Not really my concern EXCEPT that the whole world will suffer if McInsane gets in!!!

[Apollo11]

117. Thanks for all the replies

A number of valid points were made. If I could go back and change the OP I would replace the word "relationship" with "association" in the subject line. I can see it is not fair to accuse Senator Obama of having a "friendship" or a "relationship" with William Ayers. At most, Ayers is an "acquaintance" of Obama. One of hundreds (or thousands) of people who live in Chicago and who Senator Obama knows in one way or another.

PS - I saw Steve Chapman wrote a column about this exact same issue, published in Sunday's Chicago Tribune.

I posted the column over on the Editorials & Other Articles Forum. Here is the link:
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x354161

[npincus]

119. Likewise, Bill Clinton pardoned 2 terrosrists from the same group.

How is that NOT a relevant issue?

[Apollo11]

121. I think those 2 had already served time

Both had already spent more than 15 years in prison - as far as I know.

Plus Hillary is not responsible for all of her husband's decisions.

But I can see that the Clintons are in no position to raise this issue now in relation to Obama.