The Weather Underground were assholes. Narcissistic, ineffective assholes.

[rug]

The only significance of Ayers is that Obama associated with yet another asshole.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

2. that may be true, that they were narcissistic assholes, but people

can and do change, genius. Ayers has done a lot of good and is a nationally renowned expert on education and a respected member of the chicago community. but please don't let me interrupt your shallow black and white excuse for thinking, dear.

[rug]

5. The problem, cali, is that he is stating he was passionately involved in antiwar activities

when all they were doing in fact was engaging in bourgeois fantasy.

That part of him has not changed.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. They were doing everything they could think of doing.

What were you doing?

[rug]

10. I was not in a Greenwich Village townhouse, compliments of rich parents, making bombs.

And if that's all they could think of doing, it's no wonder Ayers decided to study the theory of education.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. What were you doing?

You have explained what you were not doing and how you view those who were doing something. What did you do?

[rug]

16. I was with the WSA.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. The Western Surfing Association?

Those dudes were heavy.

[rug]

21. Yeah. You must be a history major. Not that ignorance ever stopped a GDP post.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. Well it couldn't be these folks:

"Workers Solidarity Alliance was founded in November 1984"

[Warren Stupidity]

24. It could be World Socialist Alliance, except

they only exist in Red Alert 2.

[rug]

25. See #9.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. Ah you are or were a PLP stalinist idiot

calling out the weather underground for their nonsense. Got it.

[LTR]

"Commies for Clinton?"

That's a new one...

[Bake]

109. Yeah. Like blowing up buildings.

Sorry, I don't approve of that. Violence makes everything else they do suspect.

Bake

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

57. Clinton pushes O Bomber story despite her own radical ties

Clinton pushed story to Stephanopolous long before Hannity

George Stephanopolous is rightfully catching a lot of grief for having asked Barack Obama about William Ayer especially because Sean Hannity urged him to pose the question.

But it's worth remembering that even before Hannity put the topic in front of Stephanopolous, ABC News reported that the Clinton campaign itself was pushing the "story" in the middle of February, if not before. So while Hannity might have talked about it on air with Stephanopolous on Tuesday, it wasn't anything new to Stephanopolous or ABC News.



more at the link
http://www.jedreport.com/2008/04/hillary-clint-8.html

[rug]

64. Hannity's been pushing it since 2007. It's sad you equate presidential pardons with radical ties.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

67. lets see, Presidential pardon or Charity Board of Directors

which one is more serious?

[rug]

You Report. We Decide.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

59. Hillary refused to say whether it was wrong for Bill to pardon the weathermen

Stephanopolous also knew that Hillary Clinton herself had a bit of a similar situation -- also reported by ABC back in February and amplified today.

Asked today if Sen. Clinton thought it was wrong for her husband to pardon Evans and Rosenberg , a Clinton campaign spokesman refused to answer the question.

... added that, "Bill Ayers is unrepentant of what he did…and that is a difference, of course, between Linda Evans and Susan Rosenberg."

But when Evans was released after Bill Clinton pardoned her, she told the Austin American-Statesman, "I'm not repentant. That's for sure. I wouldn't go about it the same (violent) way." But "we still need solutions, and we still need justice just as badly as we ever did."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/the-weather-und.html

[Bake]

111. At least Evans renounced the violent methods.

Whether you call it repentence or not is irrelevant.

Bake

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

62. Stephanopolous knew the Clintons were far more vulnerable r/e Weathermen story but kept quiet

He didn't accuse her of anything wrong for her husband's pardon to them.

Its like the flag pin thing, no one else but Obama would have to wear the f'ing
made in china piece of tin.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

65. Sen. Hillary Clinton's husband commuted the jail sentences of two former members

ABC reports that:

Sen. Hillary Clinton's husband commuted the jail sentences of two former members

The Weather Underground - Ayres and Dohrn, Rosenberg and Evans
April 17, 2008 8:12 PM

Lotta talk, stemming from last night's debate, about the Weather Underground. Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, is friendly with a former member. Sen. Hillary Clinton's husband commuted the jail sentences of two former members.

Does it matter? Is it a stupid and tangential issue?

And who were they?

It starts with the Days or Rage.

"In October 1969 hundreds of young people, clad in football helmets and wielding lead pipes, marched through an upscale Chicago shopping district, pummeling parked cars and smashing shop windows in their path," says the promo for a recent documentary about the group. "This was the first demonstration of the Weather Underground's "Days of Rage." Outraged by the Vietnam War and racism in America, the organization waged a low-level war against the U.S. government through much of the 1970s, bombing the Capitol building, breaking Timothy Leary out of prison, and evading one of the largest FBI manhunts in history."

It appears that the documentary has been put on Youtube, where in piecemeal fashion you can watch Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, and Part 9
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/the-weather-und.html

[rug]

73. And?

[tigereye]

112. that kind of stuff was happening in many large cities at that time

is it so strange to think that other anti-War folk from that time would have some sympathy for those protestors, given how passionate people were against the Viet Nam war at the time?

I can't believe people are fussing about this stuff.. it was 40 or more years ago.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. Obama was 8.

He is linked to Ayers through http://www.woodsfund.org/ the Woods Fund, an association that started some 20 years or more after the weather underground had ceased to exist.

[Kittycat]

66. Hillshills aren't good with math or charitable foundations.

The poor people should just suffor

[noel711]

4. As a former member of the WEather Undeground, I thank you...

You know very little about the anti-war movement in the '60s,
but that doesn't matter.

What matters is that people keep open minds,
and do their homework.

If you understood what motivated the movement,
you'd never call them narcissistic.

Most of us realized it was a mistake,
and tried other methods of making a difference in society.

But name calling... is that how to make friends and influence people?

[rug]

8. I doubt you were. And if you were you'd realize

the SDS convention split along class lines resulting in the Weathermen (subsequently changed to WU to avoid sexism) and the Worker/Student Alliance.

And most people realized it was a mistake at the time.

[noel711]

19. I was there.... June 1969 at the Chicago Coluseum

it was hot and rainy.

Yes, the split was not class lines,
but motivation.

The Weather Underground felt that the anti-war movement
was not effective,
that they had to move to 'by any means necessary.'

I was there, check my FBI record.

I left the movement also, too much hot air, not enough compassion.
but that doesn't change the fact that
all of us in the movement felt strongly against the
war machine. That passion is needed now.

[madrchsod]

93. i have one of those files from those days in illinois

i look back and realize that the movement made some huge errors... as you say that passion is needed now...

[noel711]

115. Comrade! Those were the days...

I miss those days of the movement,
and they were wonderful... the comradarie,
the midnight discussions that went on forever,
the communal sharing of everything and anything we had...
we did everything together, every meal,
every laugh, every tearful moment, every bottle of wine,
every cigarette, every breath....

I walked away because of the direction they were taking,
and I went thru a long period of mourning...
I've never had friends like that since,
never had that sense of 'family,' and I grieve that.

There are times, here at the DU that I get a faint
familiar twinge, but life has marched on.

Maybe it's only possible when one is young and idealistic..
I get some of that from my daughter who is apeshit over
Obama, and its like a drug sustaining her.

But I smile, and go on with life...

Good to hear from another one who walked that path.

[baldguy]

7. The Weather Underground were assholes FORTY YEARS AGO!

The GOP are assholes NOW!

You can care about this & other meaningless distractions made up by the RW MSM - and do the GOP's job for them - or you can concern your self with real issues.

[yardwork]

85. Spot on.

All this "I was there..." is a bit tedious. I was there, too. I was nine years old. Can we move on?

[OilemFirchen]

9. Methinks your avatar would disagree.

You do know that's not Santa Claus, right?

[dionysus]

11. ROFL

zing

[rug]

14. You should read his writings on left-wing infantilism.

[OilemFirchen]

47. Have you?

Scratchin' my head here.

The Yippies maybe. But the WU?

That said, the preponderance of anti-war leadership was "bourgeois". As were many, if not most, of their followers.

So the fuck what?

[rug]

71. Here. Lenin said it best.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/

It's all free to download. he wouldn't mind.

[LTR]

26. I think he's more of a fan of his brothers

Groucho, Harpo, Chico and Zeppo.

[rug]

29. Gummo is underrated and Notre Dame has always been overrated.

[LTR]

32. Ah shit, sorry

I knew I left out one! My bad.

And no, there is no Notre Dame connection to my name. I just happen to be a rather feisty Irishman.

[PVnRT]

33. It's a bit strange

He takes the WU to task for being trust-fund kiddies with bombs...yet Marx himself was the son of a well-to-do family and never wanted for anything in his life. He had to have Engels around so that the working slobs he claimed to fight for (but didn't want to associate with) would listen to his ideas.

[rug]

36. Yeah, Karl was just a layabout.

[JoFerret]

12. Ineffective and incompetent also

.

[scheming daemons]

13. And Hillary's husband pardoned two of them....

..

[rug]

18. And the FALN. Do you think he shouldn't?

[scheming daemons]

35. My point is that this is another grenade tossed straight up by the Hillary campaign....

It's going to bite her ass much more than Obama's.

[rug]

38. Except Clinton didn't bring it up. And Obama's lame defenses keep fanning it.

You'll be hearing about Coburn for the next week.

[Adelante]

48. Clinton has been pumping this with the media for months

Don't be disingenuous.

[rug]

51. Don't be obtuse. Hannity's been pushing it for a year, not Clinton.

And he will continue to push it, whether Clinton is there or not.

[Adelante]

91. Isn't there supposed to be a difference between Hannity and Clinton?

I'd had hopes.

[kwassa]

20. The Weather Underground never killed anyone but themselves with bombs.

They were deluded, they were off the deep end, and had little support among the larger antiwar movement of the times.

and have NOTHING to do with Obama.

Ayers is not an asshole, either. Your OP makes little sense.

[LTR]

30. What's wrong with Weather Underground?

I visit their site everyday:

http://www.wunderground.com/

[kwassa]

113. so, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows?

as Dylan said?

[zulchzulu]

23. The Weather Underground was considered a Marxist organization, like your avatar

:rofl:

That's not Jerry, dude.

[rug]

27. Only Republicans considered them Marxist.

Do you consider them Marxist?

[zulchzulu]

43. "Prairie Fire: The Politics of Revolutionary Anti-Imperialism" was the WU manual

It was based on Marxist-Leninist views peppered with a light Maoist pinch for extra taste.

Do you even know what Marxism is?

[rug]

53. Actually, the name was taken from Mao.'s writings, not Marx.

And Marx worote a lot about praxis, which these clowns never grasped.

[RaleighNCDUer]

107. What name are you talking about?

Prairie Fire? That came from the prairie populists of the 1890s.

Weathermen? "You don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing." - Bob Dylan

???

[IsItJustMe]

31. Who cares? It was 40 years ago. I think it's time we move on now. Just saying. WTF?

[LTR]

34. I mean, hey, if Ayers is fair game...

...then so is Bill Clinton going to the Soviet Union in the '60s. Yes, a ridiculous issue, But so is Ayers.

[GrandmaJones7]

37. Maybe the victims family's?

-you are being an apologist for DOMESTIC terrorists (I am NOT talking about bush's war on foreign terror - please don't go there).

These people were NO different than Tim McVeigh. Stop saying it does not matter. The intentional murder of the innocent matters as much today as it did at Nuremberg and at the McVeigh trial.

[billyoc]

81. Victims of what? Did the Weathermen ever kill anyone? Or did you just hear "terrorist"

and decide to go all "what about the victims" on us? :rofl:

[redqueen]

96. Some kinda "liberals" we got around here these days, eh?

Oh sorry... should that be "liberal's"? ;)

[Mass]

39. So, why did Bill pardon them?

[rug]

40. It was the right thing to do.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[onenote]

50. so you support commuting the sentence of unrepentant assholes

But criticize Obama for being on a board of a well-regarded charitable organization with someone who was an asshole 40 years ago and, indeed, may be an asshole today.

hokay...

[rug]

55. No, I support pardons for repentant assholes.

[onenote]

68. link to expressions of remorse from evans and rosenberg?

I searched but couldn't find one

[rug]

75. I'll save you time. Here's your list of talking points for the next month.

http://www.justice.gov/pardon/clintonpardon_grants.htm

[onenote]

77. in other words, you don't have a link. thanks for the info.

[ieoeja]

103. So pardoning an '80s cop killer is the right thing to do.

While working alongside a '60s radical on a charity foundation is wrong?

[JVS]

104. If they are so awful, why would he pardon them?

[femmedem]

41. I was a narcissistic, ineffective asshole too when I was 18.

Now, not so much, I hope.

I imagine that Ayers has grown up as well.

[JohnnyLib2]

42. Wheeee, war stories from the 60s.

I was a non-brick throwing antiwar activist. Whatever admiration I had for some of the more extreme groups and individuals was fueled by what the Viet Nam disaster --through the draft -- was doing to so many, so inequitably.

Sometimes, one has to make basic choices--stand up peacefully or go destroy things.

It would be fascinating to have a conversation with Ayers, but I don't give this issue much weight at all in this primary.

[karynnj]

44. and Clinton pardoned two of them

Are we sure that neither Clinton attended a rally on their respective undergraduate campuses or in Yale where someone from the weatherunderground spoke? I actually would not be surprised.

Why? I was in college from 1968 - 1972. There were antiwar rallies on campus that everybody at least stopped in to briefly hear. I assume that the SDS spoke. I disagreed with the tactics and the extreme views of many - and I continued, as I presume the Clintons did, to spell America with a "c". The fact is that the Clintons also likely were at rallies that were far to the left of where they were - and I would not be surprised if there are potential Wellesley students for truth ready to associate HRC unfairly with any extremists on campus at the time.

Rather than making the guilt by association you did, shouldn't we be working on fighting that tactic? You do realize that in this case, you are saying that Obama should have avoided all boards Ayers or anyone else that can be deemed as a terrorist/Marxist/communist is on? Do you want a revival of McCarthyism? Have you read anything about the impact of McCarthyism, where some people were called out in the 1950s for simply associating with people who associated with the wrong people 20 years before?

[rug]

56. I'm not accusing Obama of guilt by association. I'm calling Ayers an asshole.

[Occam Bandage]

72. But yet you claim he "associated" with them. Isn't that a strange word to use for the actions

of an eight-year-old? Young children don't do much "associating."

[rug]

76. No, I'm accusing a 46 year old man of associating with an asshole.

[Occam Bandage]

78. What associations? A small one-time donation? Serving the same charity?

[rug]

84. Ask Obama what he meant by friendly.

[Occam Bandage]

86. Why would I ask him about something he didn't say?

[rug]

95. Axelrod did. I'm sure he's mistaken.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0208/Ax_on_Ayers.html

[Occam Bandage]

101. Right. An advisor said the two weren't enemies. So, er, scandal? I note

you're trying to squeeze some meaning out of the word "friendly," while ignoring the line that immediately followed it, "He thinks what was done then was wrong and outrageous, and he believes that you can’t defend the indefensible."

[karynnj]

108. He very likely was in the 1970s, but it appears that

if the work he has done in his profession life is accurately described, he has likely grown up and is perhaps not any more. (As one at college at the time - I agree that the turn to violence hurt the overall anti-war movement.

[kid a]

46. I'm surprised YOU don't associate with him...

[rug]

58. I'd rather reply yo your posts.

[JohnnyLib2]

69. !!

:rofl:

[OneDemsConscience]

49. I don't think much of their tactics

and generally their style was lame. Dohrm's audio tape about smoking dope and loading guns could have been written by Pat Buchanan--what perfect ammunition for Nixonites! Forming Leninist cells does not seem to be very effective in Anglo-American democracies.

That said, Vietnam was such a horrific injustice that it's hard for me to judge these men and women for losing their senses to some degree. Their reaction to the evil committed by this nation seems far more moral and humane than those who did nothing. Violence in order to stop the conflict was justified....but I would argue organized civil disobedience would have been a better strategy. The New Left and Marxism/Leninism influences surely didn't help--at some point in the 60s the Left did become narcissistic...

Still the time may come when each one of us may have to become familiar with the use of guns if we want to preserve our freedoms. That's not advocating violence....that's realism about what it takes to stay free. We shouldn't pass judgement so easily on those who set off bombs for cause of human dignity.

[rug]

61. Thoughtful post. Revolution is inherent in democracy.

Too bad Ayers didn't have a clue about either.

[rucky]

52. You don't have to look too hard to find one. n/t

[snooper2]

54. rug is associated with Hillary..

Rug = asshole, so Hillary = asshole...


Nice, I get the logic... dumbass

[rug]

80. Of course your premise is faulty.

Don't worry, logic is hard.

[Danger Mouse]

60. PLEASE keep pushing this issue...

it's an embarassment. to clinton.

[BlooInBloo]

63. Manufactroversy #10.

[Occam Bandage]

70. "Associated with." At the age of eight.

[ima_sinnic]

74. speaking of people associating with assholes, who's that Mark Penn feller that HRC associates with?

unlike Obama's acquaintance with Ayers, Penn is actually on her payroll.

and who give a flying fuck about something that happened 40 years ago? The man has been commended in the present, not to mention the fact that he is merely an "acquaintance."

delusional Hillary worshippers are desperate to find *something* they can pin on Obama, because that is all Hillary has shown them: go for the dirt, because I don't have anything good about myself that could get me nominated.

[rug]

82. Oh, he's an asshole of the highest order.

But he doesn't claim it's due to his deeply held antiwar convictions.

[Hamlette]

79. we are all ineffective, narcissistic, assholes.

we think the world is going to hell and we think we are doing something about it.

[rug]

83. Since we're all posting in GDP I can hardly disagree.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rug]

99. Don't you need to donate to use Ignore?

[shadowknows69]

88. Well, they clearly should have had a more adept explosives expert.

[greguganus]

89. "Narcisstic, ineffective assholes." You just described the Clintons. n/t

[Galway girl]

90. Yes Karl Marx!!

Find me one person who has never associated with an asshole !!! My God even Jesus hung out with assholes!

[madrchsod]

92. i agree with you on the first statement

i disagree with you on the second statement

[Abacus]

94. Hm, I've been teetering on this for a while now,

but this useless OP tipped it. /ignore.

[rug]

98. Don't hurt yourself.

[Beacool]

97. Ayres is a domestic terrorist, plain and simple.

The worst part is that he's not repentant. People may make mistakes in their youth, even terrible mistakes that cost the lives of other people, but this creep never repented as is evident from his interview with the NYT on 9/11/01.

The guy deserves nothing but contempt!!!!

[Upton]

100. Were you even alive then?

if not your comments mean nothing.

[rug]

105. Were you alive in 1787?

If not . . .

[Armstead]

102. Which botehrs you worse? A loose acquaintence with a 60's radical or Corporate Bigwigs?

I guess a loose acquiaintence with some "asshole" is more important to you than Hillary's campaign (and personal wealth) dependent on support of Columbian union-killing trade deals, Wall St. bigwigs and corporate titans.

[rug]

106. The latter, naturally. But in this case it's a twofer. Obama will not brook corporations.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

110. Bill Ayers is a better person than you.

There's no question.

[cliffordu]

114. Really. They were the worst fucking revolutionaries in the universe...

One of them became some kind of a commodities trader......rich spoiled college wannabes -

ELITISTS


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: