Clinton and surrogates will likely use FL and MI to declare Obama not legit.

[madfloridian]

It is in play here already at DU, at Talk Left, at No Quarter, at Taylor Marsh.

There is a post here today on greatest page saying that there will be an asterisk by his candidacy.

There is a post saying there are no rules that cover FL and MI.

There are people in this forum today saying that Obama will never be considered legitimate because of FL and MI.

A major poster here at DU says Obama thinks winning the nomination is enough and will blame his loss in the general on racism.

I have been asked why I am so passionate about telling the truth about what Florida and Michigan did.

I always said it would be used by Hillary Clinton as a way to take this fight all the way to convention and....as Bill Nelson so famously said....to get the floors there all bloody.

U.S Senator Bill Nelson (D) Fla., spoke about a number of issues facing Floridians today. At his office in West palm Beach, Senator Nelson discussed a possible solution for the democratic delegate issue – and voiced concern that if something wasn’t done soon to reach a compromise there could be “blood on the floor” in Denver during this year’s Democratic Convention.

His exact words were, I believe, from the video...blood all over the floor.

Now I am being vindicated. These two states are going to be used by the Clinton campaign advisors and by surrogates and by many supporters to declare the Obama nomination illegitimate. It is already starting.

It will probably work.

May I use Hillary Clinton's own words in a St. Pete Times interview.

"I don't think it's up to Sen. (Barack) Obama or me to dictate any resolution. I think it's up to the DNC to decide how to proceed, and I would hope that it would do so recognizing what's at stake,'' Clinton said in the interview late Sunday. "It would be tragic if we came out of this process ignoring the will of 1.7-million Floridians, setting us up for a very unhappy electorate in the fall, giving Republicans this incredible argument they could make against us."

...."So why didn't she speak up sooner about the need to count the votes of Florida Democrats, rather than wait until her campaign was in trouble after losses in Iowa and South Carolina?

"I was a little preoccupied,'' she said, laughing. "I was trying to stay alive, frankly."

.."The elected officials in Michigan were all united — let's revote. The Democratic National Committee decided to support a revote. The only person who didn't want to let people vote was Sen. Obama,'' Clinton responded.

"The cynical explanation is, no, Sen. Obama does not want people's votes to count. We're Democrats. I thought we believed in counting votes."

The posts here today and this week are showing a pattern. That because of FL and MI Obama will not really be the nominee. Truth has been ignored here by the media, they have played along with the official version from the Florida Democratic party that the big bad GOP bullied them into voting 115 to 1.

The Clinton campaign has managed to make people think the DNC broke their own rules, which is hogwash, and that they are the enforcers of delegate rules...like a supercandidate swooping to save the voters of those two states from a fate worse than death.

The pattern showing is that if FL and MI don't get their full slate seated just as they want....then Obama will not be legit.

My prediction is this. There will be no relief here at DU when he is declared the nominee. The posts will be readied, the posters will be waiting, and the forum will be filled with the scenario.

That is going to be the worst tragedy of the primary, and it might just destroy our party.

[lisa58]

1. They're going to cheat in order to be legit?

What am I missing?

[dchill]

27. What you're missing is that cheating in order to...

SEEM legit is a way of life for them.

[lisa58]

30. sad, but true...

...at least something is true.

[cultfree]

133. Ahh... conspiracy theories...

The FL and MI votes are not about the candidates, but the voters. You are so mad about this situation, MadFloridian, because you feel your support of your candidate is more important than the democratic principles of your country, and what is in the best interest of your fellow FL citizens. You should be mad... at yourself and at this situation that has presented you with an ethical conflict of interest.

[PoliticalAmazon]

76. It's called the "Bush-Jr Vote Fraud Two-Step, Florida Style." --n/t

[SoFlaJet]

2. you mean

they will TRY....

[madfloridian]

3. Yes, they are trying already.

Those damn asterisks...****

[UALRBSofL]

I applied to be an At-Large delegate for Florida

Has any Obama supporter applied as well. If not, maybe you should if you want to show your support. You still have another week to apply. If you feel so strongly that Florida voters are not being disenfranchised maybe you should consider applying. I know many voters in Florida feel left out and are not happy.

[dionysus]

127. how can you expect to be taken seriously with your sig pic, shillbot?

:shrug:

[PoliticalAmazon]

75. If Hillary tries cheating in this way, it will mean she is ready to throw away...

...the rest of her political career.

This will be seen as what Bush Jr did in 2000, and it will be very divisive to the Party. It will also ensure that the Republicans will win in November.

She's already skating on thin ice regarding the future of her political career, which is why she said in the debate that she'd back the winner of the Dem primary. It would seem to me that this indicates she is aware of the danger she is courting with her divisive methods, so if she does pull the FL-MI Bush-Jr Two-Step, then it will be obvious that she is willing to kill her future chances in the political arena for a very outside chance to win the primary.

[Kittycat]

4. MI Isn't Legit - because a judge Ruled it so... So Clinton can't claim anything there

[madfloridian]

8. Just last month on NPR she pushed for both states' delegates.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88165077

" Hillary Clinton says the results of Michigan's Democratic presidential primary should count, even if Barack Obama's name did not appear on the ballot.

"That was his choice," she says in an interview with Steve Inskeep. "There was no rule or requirement that he take his name off the ballot. His supporters ran a very aggressive campaign to try to get people to vote uncommitted."

[madrchsod]

71. she did last week also...

she`s not going to stop

[4themind]

5. Please consider this scenario

Obama, may just agree to have them seated after the primary is over and the results are in,which he may do if he's built up a large enough lead, that brining them in won't have a decisive impact (which also, due to timing, takes away the biggest rationale of those who favored moving up, which was to have a more decisive impact on the election). Making them go last, could be seen as a deterrent for the future, given their prior goals. Let's not fret until this is all played out, at least not without giving weight to some other case scenarios as well.

[madfloridian]

10. I have given weight to all those scenarios.

In many of my posts.

However, the new theme does not worry about such mundane things as compromise.

The damage will be done to the party.

[4themind]

15. They may try a new tactic but..

If she's arguing to seat the delegates, and he agrees to seat the delegates (due to having an insurmountable lead regardless) Then what can her campaign possibly say after that? They can only go to the super delegates who (,n this hypothetical scenario, I would find almost impossible for them not to shift to his side very close to after the end of voting. What I DO worry about is the damage that could happen to this party between now and the end of voting, if conditions don't seem unfavorable enough for her to drop out.

[madfloridian]

32. You need to read some of the posts round the internet tubes.

Facts don't matter now in this situation.

[amandabeech]

103. I have no problems with changing the punishment to making them go last,

instead of ignoring them altogether.

The states did not get the opportunity to influence the crucial early weeding-out, which is what those early, defiant dates were for.

We Dems need votes in both states, at the top, middle and bottom of the ticket.

Letting Michigan and Florida stage a revote in June might have smoothed ruffled voter feathers in both states.

In a close election, why risk throwing away any votes unless you absolutely have to?

Here, I didn't think that we absolutely had to.

I was very saddened when revotes, particularly in Michigan my home state, could not be arranged for early June.

[madfloridian]

108. DNC told them to revote, the states said no.

.

[Orsino]

6. Well, he's not legitimate...

...if he can't even make it onto the Michigan ballot. That oversight is inexcusable. :7

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

11. I think he was on the ballot

before he wasn't on the ballot.

Anyway, we (in MI) don't get to vote again until November. Then (hopefully) we will send Obama's asterisk to the white house.

And, Hey Florida, no hanging or dimpled chads this time, eh? Punch like you mean it!

:hi:

[Florida22ndDistrict]

44. re: I think he was on the ballot

Things have changed a lot since 2000. Funny you mention the hanging chads because that was the real meat of the bill that got us punished by the DNC. Since the situation in 2000 Florida legislators have switch the state voting system to electronic voting which saw outrage from citizen due to security flaws and lack of a verifiable paper trail. Then with the bill in question, electronic voting machines were banned along side putting in place a requirement for a paper trail in elections. This bill that caused all the fuss turned our voting system into scantron type fill in the bubble optical scan ballots state wide, to insure a clean, easy to use system that left a paper trail to insure a spotless election come November. But of course 7 days on a primary schedule are more important then that or the right of the voters to be represented.

[Peace Patriot]

53. It's my understanding that it wasn't that Obama "didn't make it" onto the MI ballot,

but that he was following the rules, and removed his name, or never filed there--because the party rules said he shouldn't. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You seem to be saying that he couldn't have "made it" onto that ballot--didn't have the organization, the signatures, the money, or whatever it takes to qualify for that ballot. I find that very hard to believe.

Was it an "oversight," as you say? Or was it a deliberate abiding by the rules?

In theory, someone who didn't run in any primary could be legitimately voted as our presidential nominee by the party convention. For instance, say the delegates are deadlocked between Obama and Clinton, neither one has enough, and Al Gore is drafted, his name is put into the hopper at the convention, he agrees to be the compromise candidate, and they all vote for him--to end the fight and get on to November. Not very likely, but it could happen. Winning primaries earns you the nomination only if you win enough delegates to get the nomination on the first vote. After that, some delegates are automatically released from their obligation to vote for you, and anything could happen. (I'm not sure what the rules are in various states, these days--but I think it's still true that some delegates are freed after the first vote. And I believe that super-delegates can switch at any time.)

The primaries do not confer legitimacy on anyone as the Democratic candidate. The convention holds sole power to confer legitimacy, and has the power to override the primary votes. Say, a candidate reaches the convention with sufficient delegates to win the nomination on the first vote--then, disaster strikes. That candidate is caught on film having sex with an underage girl (or boy)--or some such crippling scandal. I believe that the delegates for that candidate are still legally obliged to vote for that candidate on the first vote, but what would happen is this: either the candidate would withdraw and officially release his/her delegates, or the party elders would force the candidate to do so. The pledged delegates would then vote for someone else. Again, the convention holds sole power when there is no clear primary winner (--and would act to take power in the disaster scenario).

Legitimacy is not conferred by the primaries. Legitimacy is conferred by the convention--even in the case of the first round vote. The convention has to vote on it.

So, a candidate not being on a particular state primary ballot has nothing at all to do with their "legitimacy" as the Democratic nominee. What if a candidate entered the race half way through the primary season, but then won all remaining primaries and got enough delegates for a first vote nomination? Would you say that he or she was not a "legitimate" Democratic Party nominee, because the voters in the first set of primaries didn't have a chance to vote on him or her? That's a nonsensical position.

And I would say that it works both ways, as to Obama and Clinton. If Clinton won certain primaries legitimately--following party rules--that Obama had not participated in, and she won sufficient delegates that way, he could not say that her candidacy was illegitimate--just because the people in those states didn't have a chance to vote for him. However, if the reason was that he was following the rules, and she wasn't, that changes things--for me, anyway. The party has the right to establish the rules. And candidates who defy the rules need to bear the consequences.

I think there should be a re-vote in FLA and MI. I'm not sure of the status of things right now. But that would be the best solution. The bad decisions of the state party leaders--or of the Clinton campaign--should not deprive the voters of their say. I really don't like it that the Clinton campaign defied the rules. That's what they did, as I understand it. That does not speak well of her candidacy. But I also don't understand why the best solution--re-votes--hasn't been done.

[Patriot Abroad]

131. Didn't everyone of consequence except Hillary agree not to be on the ballot in Michigan?

Let's be blunt, if Obama ran against Clinton in a straight race in Michigan, I would expect him to wipe the floor with her.

(and anything which came out of Florida I would expect to be fixed from the beginning).

[C_U_L8R]

7. Too legit to quit ?

we dance now

[Vinca]

9. She's determined to take down the party. nt

[Joe Chi Minh]

79. I only read the headline, but it was enough:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=560389&in_page_id=1811

[SoCalDem]

12. and they will be banned and re-banned.. and eventually they will find a new place to kvetch

:)

Look.. Obama did NOT make the rules.. he and his team just set out to win delegates..state by state.. they went EVERYWHERE.. they did not blow off any state..

Hillary's camp was the one who colluded with Granholm and the FL party bosses to jump the line and give her a head start, so she could "wind it all up by feb 5th"... How on EARTH is any of this HIS fault?./.or the fault of the voters from the OTHER 48 states who followed the rules?

She miscaluclated her strength.. Probably too many years in the spotlight as the "presumptive winner"..

he has run a nose-to-the-grindstone campaign..one after the other..for MONTHS, and has done so without destroying HER.. She has never missed an opportunity to shit all over him..

I have NO sympathy for her campaign's mis-steps. She had money, name-recognition, and a team in place for SEVEN AND A HALF YEARS...and all the press on her side..and she still blew it..

People are just not that "into her"..

[BenDavid]

13. B. Hussein Obama is not legit. We had this election won

until B. Hussein Obama decided to unite us.

I don't know much about B. Hussein Obama. Does anybody?

And if I jumped on the bandwagon and wrote "Obama is the greatest" all the time,
I'd no longer be racist?

Maybe I'm anti-bandwagon.
Maybe I don't follow the crowd all the time.
Maybe I don't ask other people what I stand for.

That's it in a nutshell. Easy to throw around the term bigot and racist, but one only has to look directly at obama and his words and his actions and you will see a bigot and a racist, cut from the same cloth as pastor wright.

[Lucky 13]

16. HUSSEIN! HUSSEIN! HUSSEIN!

You calling Barack a bigot is the BIG FAT POT calling the kettle black.

You are what's wrong with this country. You will be defeated soon.

[madfloridian]

18. See, you just made my point. God bless you for that. Now folks can't argue with me..

when I say that he will be declared not legit.

Thank you so much.

:rofl:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

20. "We Had This Election Won Until B. Hussein Obama decided to unite us. "

How dare anyone run against Clinton.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

24. You just need to lower your expectations.

Mine are on the floor and heading toward the basement. Still not low enough.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

45. You have a basement?

I thought you lived in Florida? :crazy:

[Hepburn]

38. ...

...:applause:

[bluestateguy]

25. "B. Hussein Obama" is an Ann Coulter talking point

nt

[OzarkDem]

89. So is Billary

So is making cheap jokes about Monica Lewinsky and cigars. So is calling Hillary a bitch, whore, etc.

Yet we see such posts many times a day here in GDP. :shrug:

[SlicerDicer-]

124. I call her Billary cause she is

I make cheap jokes about Cigars and Monica cause it cost Gore the election and we wound up with bush..

I call her a bitch and whore cause she is a bitch likely not a whore but it makes me feel better about the whole situation.

Thanks for trying though.

[Dr.Phool]

90. I like that Irish guy. O'Bama!

[Peace Patriot]

42. That is a Freeper tactic, BenDavid--misusing someone's name. His name is Barrack

not "B. Hussein." And why are you emphasizing the "Hussein" anyway, if you are not--as you say--a bigot?

You assert that, "...one only has to look directly at obama (sic*) and his words and his actions" and "you will see a bigot and a racist."

Sorry, I don't see that at all.

----------

*(His last name starts with a capital "O." Maybe a typo on your part, but, after your "B. Hussein"--your close attention to capitalization, punctuation and his middle name--I'm suspicious. Capitalization confers importance. That's why I was taught in Catholic schools never to capitalize "Pagan." That makes hated Paganism too important for Catholic tastes. Methodists, Jews, Islamics, Catholics, even Protestants in general, get a capital. Not Pagans! Thus, I learned the meaning of capitalization--in modern English grammar, in any case. Your demeaning little "o" in Obama struck me as deliberate. Was it?)

[GoneOffShore]

48. Did Ignored say something stupid again?

[davidpdx]

122. It's sounds like it

and personally I don't want to know what he said either. I have about 30 people on my ignore list and it's going to stay that way until the primary is over. That particular person is one of the most vile on here. Listening to them spew crap is one thing, but the RW talking points gets a little old.

[JackORoses]

57. Hillary never had anything won. In fact, she has been behind the whole way.

Not once did she hold a Pledged Delegate lead. Not Once.

in a nutshell, she is a nut and a shell of a human being.

[Genevieve]

59. "you will see a bigot and a racist"

yes, I do see one.

and his name is B. David.

You're quite fucked-up, y'know?

[Zambero]

69. DAVID! DAVID! DAVID!

Hey BenDavid, Per chance did your parents give you the middle name of DAVID? Well fine, that's a swell name, but on day one of your life did you have any say-so in selecting that name? No???? What a shame! Gosh, would Obama possibly be in the same predicament? Of course not, that name HUSSEIN is intractibly in his DNA, and he's fully accountable for it, somehow. That's why the people that refer to him as HUSSEIN are not really the idiots they seem to be....or are they?

[madrchsod]

72. hussein-hussein-racist-bigot -racist -bigot- racist

[tabatha]

78. So.....

Nunn, Reich, Richardson, Kerry, etc, etc are dumbasses.

[my3boyz]

85. You are one sick puppy! Get some psychological help soon! nt

[rateyes]

86. "WE had this election won until...??????"

Who the hell is "WE" kimosabe? Before it was "you Dems" you talked about, and now it's "WE had this election unti..."

G-d, you sound not only bitter, but bigoted toward any person with an Arabic name. Are you that prejudiced?

[madfloridian]

88. Obama was not supposed to be this strong. Hillary is entitled to two terms

because it is her turn. Someone explained that to me the other day as I looked wide-eyed at them.

So it is all Obama's fault. Think on that.

[rateyes]

95. I guess she counted on a coronation rather than having

to win a nomination. Go figure. :crazy:

[Dr.Phool]

92. Last September, Cleveland Browns had us won a football game.

But, then those Pittsburgh Steelers had to show up, and kicked our asses.

We coulda been a contender.

[rateyes]

97. Sounds like "my" Vikings.

:D

[Erin Elizabeth]

117. She coulda been a contendah!

[kevinbgoode]

99. Congratulations!

You are the first DUer I've seen use the term "B.Hussein Obama" exactly like Clinton-endorser Ann Coulter.

[AZBlue]

113. Are you serious? Oh my God, you are.

Let me introduce you to my two friends: Alert and Ignore.

[dbmk]

114. If I am not much mistaken

you were the one that used the phrase "you democrats" the other day?

[tammywammy]

116. How dare Obama run against Hillary

Didn't he know it was her turn!

[JAbuchan08]

126. "We" sure did have this election won, didn't we? Before a single vote was cast, or a single opinion

aired.

"We" won this election before a single voter got to make a choice.

[dionysus]

128. i will cheer your eventual 'stoning

heartily

[Patriot Abroad]

132. B. Whinging David has spoken

So we were supposed to just fall lockstep in line behind the most controversial and least electable (in the General Election) candidate in the bunch?

I'm not thrilled by Obama, but I see this as another '92. We don't want a 16 year veteran of the "insiders", we want what Hil and Bill represented when they banished Bush senior - the winds of change blowing through the capital, the chance to wash the stench out of the White House.

Hillary winning the nomination is the Republican dream - because she more than Obama is beatable. Some people just flat out don't like her. Watching this election from afar, I'm rapidly becoming one of them.

[knixphan]

14. Answer: Dean.

He just has to 'man up'.

And the elders of the party.

The Clintons aren't bigger than all the leadership of the DNC.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kwenu]

19. We'll rub their backs while Obama's taking the oath of office.

[GoesTo11]

21. If perchance she wins this way, she would have the asterisk

[SoonerPride]

22. I think he'll get enough ahead to seat both as is and still win.

Soon enough HRC will wither up and Obama will seat Fl and Mi as is.

[meow mix]

26. they already want to affix a * to his name, i think that should be a DU bannable offense

especially once he is the nom

[madfloridian]

35. I agree.

:hi:

[YDogg]

83. ramen

[Missouri Blue]

111. An * means something in sports record books, not in elections. (nt)

[BzaDem]

28. All Obama had to do to avoid this was support a revote. PERFECTLY within the rules.

[madfloridian]

31. Both states REFUSED the revote when Dean offered it. Research before posting.

Dean offered the revote, even asked them to do it...The states said no.

[Missouri Blue]

109. You have to see, those two States knew they could deal for more . . .

. . . if they waited till the convention to negotiate the seating of delegates. I think Dean is up to negotiating with them.

[Hepburn]

39. Question:

How the fuck is he suppose to sponsor a re-vote since the states refused to do so? What? Charge in, declare martial law, and MAKE them re-vote?

GMAFB........:eyes:

[smiley_glad_hands]

29. She'll go the Lieberman route. eom

[Missouri Blue]

112. No she won't. That will not happen.

Lieberman could count on winning if he went independent. With Clinton, she can count on losing. She can't afford the expenses of running a campaign that has no chance of winning.

Now, she might threaten this, and she might receive something for it: a cabinet nomination, or a promise of a Supreme Court nomination. I can't picture her being vice president under Obama, though, and I doubt she'll want that.

[AtomicKitten]

33. That does seem to follow their general whining theme.

It is laughable that people would be PISSED OFF that they are being made to follow the rules.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

49. re: That does seem to follow their general whining theme.

I say we make a rule next primary cycle that Californians are not allowed to vote in the democratic primaries. Yes laughable indeed. Go read the charter. If you believe in those principles then there should be no instance in which you would disenfranchise the voters. If you don't believe in those principles, then find a new party founded on authoritarian order (it would suit you better).

[AtomicKitten]

51. Hillary signed on to the disposition of FL and MI early on & is trying to change the rules

in the middle of the game because she has already lost and is trying to ferret out any metric to stay in the race. Worse, she is campaigning to get others to share this poor sports whine, and I see that you've bitten. Rules are rules and are constant regardless of how horribly put upon you may feel.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

61. Hillary signed on to the disposition ...

I've been pissed about this issue long before the Clinton campaign decided that it was in their political interest to pursue. I could care less what Clinton has done. Do you believe in the principles of the democratic party set forth in the charter or do you not?

[AtomicKitten]

62. I believe we are a civilized society that follows rules. You?

Your beef is with your state legislature. They moved the date. Not Howard Dean. Not Barack Obama. 'kay? And again I'll point out that Hillary was fine with it and signed off on it.

Your blaming is getting all over everyone EXCEPT those actually responsible.

Take it up with your state legislature.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

68. re: I believe we are a civilized society that follows rules. You?

You sure like to assume a lot an paint broad stokes. Why not go back and read over what I have written many times rather then using prejudice.

[AtomicKitten]

73. Done. Now start blaming those responsible instead of blaming like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFyHWqx9m4s

[Florida22ndDistrict]

74. re: Done...

You prove that you have no understanding of my opinion on the issue by echoing your same statements and pigeonholing me into a classification that has nothing to do with me. Keep up the prejudice.

[AtomicKitten]

77. Just trying to redirect your kvetching to the actual source of your discomfort.

You're welcome.

:hi:

[madfloridian]

58. You just said above you won't vote for Obama

So I think you need to think about your own party status.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

66. re: You just said above you won't vote for Obama

You are aware that this is the United States of America and in this country we have different levels of government right? You are aware that the presidency is one of these offices and that its power along with its cabinet are balanced through the Judicial and Legislative branches right? You are aware that we are a union of states who have thier own constitutions and governments as well? You are aware that Democrats run for more then the presidency correct? If Obama wins the nomination, and if he wins the presidency he will not be an all encompassing dictator. If some democrats take issue with him, or parts of the party on a national basis for actions they have recently taken, this does not necessarily change their views on how our country should be governed. This does not mean they will vote against all democrats.

[suston96]

34. Obama will be the nominee but certainly ignoring the rights of almost 2 million Democrats....

.....in Florida and Michigan to fully participate in his nomination, as the Democratic Party Charter mandates, will certainly affect their turnout for him in the general election. The Obama campaign is discounting those two states and is flatly conceding them to McCain.

So be it. But Democrats in other states are watching and they may also walk away from the nominee of what used to be their party.

[Hepburn]

40. ...

...gawd, you sound like my dear departed Jewish mother...and I thought she could lay a guilt trip.

:eyes:

[suston96]

41. "Guilt trip"? No, not guilt - seething anger by Democrats being scorned by fellow Democrats....nt

[YDogg]

91. Not every Dem voter is short-sighted enough to vote for mccain if their candidate is not the nominee

or to not vote at all

did I say short-sighted? perhaps self-centered is more appropriate

i'd vote for clinton if she was the nominee - although it would take all i could muster to pull the lever for her after the divisive campaign she has waged - because i'm not voting for myself. i'll be voting for my daughter, my wife, my sisters, my mother, and all of the other women in my life who will reap the ugly consequences of a lost supreme court. a court that will not return in generations, most likely. if that doesn't matter to you, and if mccain is a better alternative for you than obama, then why the hell would you post on DU?

[madfloridian]

43. Darlin', you ain't seen nothing yet.

Wait till I really get started.

}(

[Florida22ndDistrict]

50. He'll be as illegitimate to me as Bush was in 2000...

[Erin Elizabeth]

118. Concede them to McCain?

Are you aware that this is the primary and not the general election?

:rofl:

What, all those Dems in thsoe two states will disappear during the GE? How crazy.

[Cha]

36. hilary needs to take a

shower..she stinks and she's smellin' up the place.

I'm in New YOrk and a customer just came up to me today and said.."I'm so sick of her..she needs to just get out."..didn't have to ask who she was talking about. I said I'm glad you can see that and she said, "yes, and everyone I know feels the same."

It's the corporate mediawhores and hilary against the people.

[crankychatter]

37. Hit it again, Mad... this is the Scenario and there is NO discussion of it except for YOU

Supers will likely come out long before the Convention and give Obama enough votes to be the nominee (hopefully).

Even without this, the Clinton Camp and complicit media will harp on this fake self-martyrdom... to call into question the legitimacy of Obama's nomination... without accurately informing the public.

She will not endorse or support Obama until August... giving us only ten weeks to muster a campaign against McCain.

Factor in the imminent possibility of conflict with Iran and her repetition of the Bush meme, RE "Iran's nuclear ambitions."

I see a potential for usurpation of the nomination. If not, then a deliberate effort to secure the office for McCain.

How, can WE, fight this? We have to act as if this is ALL TRUE, and fight accordingly. I see Obama supporters as distracted by ALL of these short term smaller battles.

You are the only one addressing the long term problem.

H E L P M E (kidding)

Seriously, you have tremendous credibility with me and anyone that's reading more than one liners on DU.

At the risk of sounding "conspiratorial," I see Obama's martyrdom, either by character assassination or some electoral means... as a path to "radicalizing" and "criminalizing" dissent.

This is giving me the creeps.

[KitSileya]

46. And that is why, after being lukewarm to both Clinton and Obama,

(I supported Edwards) I am now throwing my support behind Barack Obama. I can't vote for him (no citizenship), but I can certainly pray for him, do my darnest to get my friends to vote for him, and set people straight when they lie about him.

You, Madfloridian, deserve flowers for how you've worked tirelessly to tell the truth about this mess. You've popped so many propaganda balloons floated by the Clinton campaign here on DU that I wouldn't be surprised if you've developed tendonitis.

You deserve :donut: :)

[zulchzulu]

47. Who needs rules anyway? I say Obama count his delegates twice and call it a day

Why do we need rules anyway?

:crazy:

[TwilightGardener]

52. Anything to trash Obama and help McCain win, for Hillary fanatics.

[Redbear]

54. If FL and MI arent seated, it will hurt our party's nominee.

No amount of explaining that it was state legistatures/state parties' fault will undo that.

[madfloridian]

60. You are right. Truth no longer matters...only what looks good.

Forget doing the right thing....just do the convenient easy thing.

:sarcasm:

[Dr Fate]

55. You have been calling this one right all along. n/t

n/t

[mod mom]

56. I live in Ohio. Most elections by the time the primaries reach my state, The Dem candidate is

already chosen. I never cried foul-I've been disenfranchised in the primary process.

As far for here at DU, once the campaign $ runs out, the campaign will be over and we'll all be on the same page-working to get Sen Obama elected to office. Any distractors will have to post elsewhere, according to the rules.

[Melinda]

65. Historically same here in CA, and the POTUS is always declared before CA votes are counted

This is the first year in as long as I can recall that CA primary votes have counted toward choosing our nominee; the "righteous indignation" of some here (ie; whining) that they've somehow been "disenfranchised is just too rich.

FL is politically such a fucked up state. First they give us Chimpy McCokespoon, and now this. Props to mad for the OP, and dollars to donuts she is spot on again.

*edited to add a word.

[nichomachus]

63. Any attempt at a flim-flam will seal Hillary's fate

If Hillary and Bill manage to pull some "blood on the floor" flim flam effort, it will be her undoing.

If she doesn't win the nomination, then her political career will be over. She will have pissed off too many people to do this all over again.

If she does win the nomination, a lot of Dems will hold their noses and vote for her to keep the Republicans out. If she loses the GE, again, it will be the end of her political career.

If she does win both -- and there is a sense that she bullied her way into office -- then she will have the "prize," but it will be a hollow victory. She will not have the moral support of a lot of the nose-holders who put her into office.

At the first misstep, she will be on her own. The GOP will attack her in office. That's a given. They would love nothing better than a one-two impeachment punch. (They would never "take it off the table.")

The last time around, a lot of people went out on a limb for the Clintons and then Hillary and Bill sawed the limb off behind them. A lot of people ended up with egg on their faces. Those supporters won't make that mistake again. This is what accounts for so many inner-circle people abandoning her now. Chickens coming home to roost.

When the shit hits the fan for "President Hillary," and there's a sense she got there by slash-and-burn tactics, there won't be a lot of people standing by her side. She could end up making Jimmy Carter's presidency look like FDR's.

[Zambero]

64. Obama didn't create the party's rules

He just abided by them. Hillary proclaimed to do so as well, until she started losing "safe" states and with them the delegate lead, necessitating a midcourse flip-flop.

[KamaAina]

67. "We had to destroy the party in order to save it"

:eyes:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

70. I did a radio interview a few weeks back

I was a guest along with a former US Congressman. He was the Hillary supporter and I was the Obama supporter for the interview. He used the MI and FL delegates were being cheated at no fault of their own argument. He said specifically that the especially the Florida delegates should be seated as they stand now for fairness to the voters.

I felt then we might be in for some real trouble in the party with this issue.

[madfloridian]

80. Yes, they are not going to let it go.

Kind of tragic in the year we could won so easily.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

93. It's ours to lose

As I've said before, I'll be damned if we're not giving it our best shot.

I keep holding out hope that in the end someone will be able to reign in Clinton and not let this issue bloom into the disaster it's budding to become. At this point I'm no longer sure how much that really matters as so much damage has already been permitted to take root in both MI and FL.

[dansolo]

81. If Obama has a 150+ pledged delegate lead

It would be pointless to argue that if they are still behind in pledged delegates even if MI and FL are added based on the invalid primaries. Even if Hillary was awarded a net ~40 delegates for FL and ~80 for Michigan (meaning Obama gets no delegates) she will still be behind in the pledged delegate count. Even if the pledged delegates are seated for FL and MI, there is no way in hell that the superdelegates from those two states will be allowed.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[my3boyz]

84. Once Hillary is out I believe Obama will allow those votes to be counted HOWEVER

He is not going to allow her to use it to get her "closer" to the nomination but not quite. In other words he is not going to allow her to use the results of an illegal election to make her the winner.

[OzarkDem]

87. Disenfranchising voters is not the Democratic Party way

no matter how much Obama and his cult of personality wish to make it so.

The party and its reputation advocating for free and fair elections are far too important to be sacrificed for Obama.

:dem:

[YDogg]

96. so what did your florida state legislator say to you when you bitched him/her out for allowing this

to happen?

not from florida? at least your vote counts for something. but it was the florida Dem party that screwed the candidates. that is where the blame belongs. clinton signed off on this. she knew that if florida party big wigs allowed this to happen, that votes like mine would not count. and she fucking signed off on it. now she is outraged? i call bullshit.

[wileedog]

100. Yeah but that whole following rules thing

is pretty important too.

Changing them mid-election, or deciding that popular vote is more important mid stream, or any of the other various hijinx being proposed to somehow give the Queen her due is not exactly the Democratic way either.

Nobody is sacrificing anything "for Obama" - they are penalizing MI and FL party leaders for being arrogant assholes.

You think any other state is ever going to pull this stunt again once those guys get (rightfully) tossed out?

[HockeyMom]

104. When I moved to this state,

I fully expected my votes not to count. I guess I am resigned to this until I can get the hell out of here and go home.

You can write off Florida. It is a Republican state.

[BlooInBloo]

94. Sigh. Clinton people have learned the lessons of the wrongs that were done to them TOO well.

[Mme. Defarge]

98. After seeing the way Obama

has run his campaign so far, I think that he and his team are very, very smart, and will most likely be prepared for such a turn of events.

[windbreeze]

123. From what I have seen, he and his campaign are much smarter than

the average bear...way smarter...he seems to do exactly what's needed, exactly when it's needed...and does nothing when it isn't...that's my perception though, and it could be flawed...wb...(I don't back either of them, I am sitting here watching, and that is what I see on an almost daily basis)

[NorthCarolina]

101. I think the FL and MI vote in the GE will erase any * put there by Clinton campaign "spin" n/t

[ms liberty]

102. K&R - this makes me so angry...N/t

[BayjanDem]

105. If Hillary

were given Florida and MI through tricks. And she were to become the nominee. How can we then turn around and vote for her? That would be madness.

[DRoseDARs]

106. And if a single one of those people pulls this card, they DAMN well better riot for impeachment...

...of Bush. Talk about not being legit.

[Missouri Blue]

107. Don't worry about this.

This could be ironed-out and settled at the convention, and that's exactly what party conventions were supposed to do. Why be so worried that the Democratic Convention might have practical function this year, it won't just be the motivational. The delegates for those two states can be seated and can cast their votes at the convention, and even though there was not an official "primary," there are enough polls to inform the delegates of how the citizens vote.

First, Clinton knows that even if those delegates vote, she doesn't have a chance to win. None. It won't happen. This is a total bluff on the Clintons' part. It won't get her the nomination-- though she might win a position in the administration. Hell, she might end up on the Supreme Court eventually.

You think Clinton's effort to try to undermine the Obama nomination by using Florida and Michigan is anything new? I heard it months ago, though at that time, it seemed that some compromise might be reached.

It's likely to be a convention full of wheeling and dealing, not blood.

[madfloridian]

110. You seem to accept it as ok. I do not.

I have lived it here. It is not ok. It was not ok when we got the emails from the state party leaders blaming Dean and trying to crash the fundraising.

It was not ok when they cranked out propaganda from the Florida Dem website.

It is not ok. Clinton is lying about it. Her campaign is lying about it.

[jackson_dem]

115. He won't be legit if his margin comes from killing re-votes in FL/MI and then not seating FL

[Political Heretic]

119. Why does this matter? If all MI and FL delegates were seated, as is, Obama would continue to lead.

So I don't understand what the fucking big deal is?

How about Hillary get a grip, concede her loss, and let the party nominee seat the delegates at the convention and move on?

[madfloridian]

121. Well, I guess it does not matter to most. It matters to me because of the lies.

I will never forget the lies, the emails from the state leaders, the spin.

I will never forget the bloggers in the state went along with the state party and never crossed them on this issue.

I won't forget the media toeing the party line on this.

Fine if it does not matter to anyone else. It matters to me.

I am on many ignore lists. Put me there, I guess, because I care.

[Political Heretic]

125. No mad I'm sorry ,I meant not offense - let me rephrase my comments:

This whole florida michigan mess matters in terms of the Democratic Party and State Democratic Party Politics. I've appreciated your constant awesome posting on this.

What I meant was more to Clinton supporters who would be calling Obama's nomination a fraud or the Clinton campaign who constantly keeps pushing for delegates to be counted as is without any discussion -- I'm saying why is it such a big deal? Even if everything was counted as is, Clinton would still not take the lead. Unless I am missing something, calling his nomination a fraud doesn't make any sense if the results from MI and FL under any scenario other than a complete do-over could not possibly give Clinton more pledged delegates than Obama.

Again, I'm sorry my comments sounded like I was saying your work on this matter isn't important. I've posted several other times saying that you've been one of my favorite posters on DU, and your work on the FL and MI issue has been stellar.

[madfloridian]

129. Thanks. Doesn't need to make sense if big money does it.

:)

My feeling is that it doesn't have to make sense. It is raw power, money power, and corporate power. Those Clinton donors who have been threatening Dean to get their money back are among the richest men in America. The power base of the party. They don't need reasons.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1946

Their goal it appears to me is to make sure the DNC does not succeed with the 50 state plan unless they are catered to enough.

That is blunt, but truth hurts.

[Political Heretic]

120. PS - when obama is declared the nominee, posts have 1 week to call him not legit because of FL /MI

One week.

Then the banstick comes out.

[tbyg52]

130. Thank you for staying on this - K&R nt