"If you are a REAL feminist, then you must be supporting Hillary Rodham Clinton "

[mrreowwr_kittty]

That's what a fellow DUer told me last night. I'm not going to call the person out by linking to it but here is the entire comment:

If you are a REAL feminist, then you must be supporting Hillary Rodham Clinton because I don't think, given the plight of women in the world today, that you can be a feminist and be for Barack Hussein Obama. I just don't see that as being possible. it would be similar to a gay rights activist endorsing...(insert heterosexual political candidate here) over Barney Frank for his Mass. congressional seat. That's mytwo cents at least. I'm sure you have a great excuse for supporting Barack obama though if that is who you're supoorting (which is what I gathered from your post).

To me, there are so many things wrong with that statement I don't even know where to begin. But this is a common attitude I've seen expressed here and out in the world.

Thoughts on this?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. You ever checked out the "feminist group" in the dungeon?

I wouldn't take it seriously.

[msallied]

2. I think this person's version of "feminism" is akin to

Louis Farakkahn's version of racial harmony.

[PoliticalAmazon]

48. I don't think this person is a feminist; the reasoning doesn't reflect...

...the values of feminism, which include a person being judged on their qualifications, not their gender.

In addition, the addition of the "hussein" middle name is something that rightwingers do.

I think the comment about being a real feminist is from someone who is not a feminist and may actually be a rightwinger trying to capitalize on the intrapart war going on in the Democratic Party.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

51. The person is a longtime DUer so I hate to think she's a troll. But she's sure acting like one.

I also agree that she is demonstrating a very shallow understanding of feminism. I'd call what she's espousing tokenism, actually. It's the idea that the presence of a woman, any woman, in a leadership role will automatically advance the cause of women.

[Triana]

3. I don't support Republicans - even if they are women (n/t)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

6. That's what I'm saying.

I asked the person if she'd be voting for McCain if Condoleeza is on the ticket.

[Hepburn]

14. GMTA...

...that was my first thought on this. Like there is that POS US Senator out of TX ~~ mega RW Pubbie ~~ I should support her because we are both female??

:eyes:

[bowens43]

4. Not a very convincing argument

[libnnc]

5. Naomi Wolf explains that quite well

Anyone who questions her feminist cred is either stupid or insane.

What is leadership? Leadership means getting out in front of where people are and waking them up. Right now, given these violent possible threats to us and our families, we are sleeping.

Which is why I am formally coming out of the closet with my support for Senator Barack Obama. Of all the candidates running now, he is the leader on understanding the threat to the Constitution and actually taking action, not just mouthing soundbites, on the need to deny torturers space in our nation and to restore the rule of law.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/why-barack-obama-got-my-v_b_89017.html

[Shakespeare]

7. That, boys and girls, is what we call a "logical fallacy."

I'm a woman, and a feminist, and don't EVEN throw that shit at me.

[mkultra]

16. i would think that would be insulting to a woman

I mean, im male, but i would think that the notion that women have to yield choice and opinion to a greater cause would be counter to a movement intended on restoring full choice to women.


Havent you girls been told what to think long enough.


GIRL POWER!!! er..uh.. something like that.

[DarienComp]

8. I find it offensive that I'd be expected to vote for Barney Frank because he's gay.

I don't live in his district, but I'd vote for him because he's a brilliant congressman.

[irish.lambchop]

9. People who support that sentiment are

misguided and view issues with glasses they've made themselves. They've a very narrow view of the world. What about the plight of the poverty-stricken, the homeless, the hungry, etc.?

[YOY]

10. I think voting for a person solely because of their gender is JUST as sexist as NOT doing so.

n/t

[mrreowwr_kittty]

12. It's tokenism at it's worst.

If Hillary gets elected because people are guilt-tripped into voting for her because she's a woman, she will not be respected as a leader.

[dana_b]

18. yeah, that seems like a no-brainer, doesn't it? n/t

[YOY]

22. Indeed.

But we are talking about folks who find sexism in the strangest of places.

I had a post deleted once for saying I felt sorry for Clinton's campaign workers for "them (the workers) having to put a lipstick on that pig (the campaign)" That got deleted for being "sexist". I had no idea that "pig" was a sexist term used for women's campaigns.

[dana_b]

28. hmm... that is odd. I usually think of that term as a sexist word in reference to men. n/t

[DefenseLawyer]

11. The end justifies the means

There isn't a lot of logic to many of the defenses of Hillary Clinton and her tactics I see here. The fact is that these people are committed very strongly to Hillary Clinton. That commitment appears to trump all else.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Phylis Shlafly is a woman. Would this person vote for her? nt

[Mass]

15. So, by this standard, I should have supported Kerry Healey against Deval Patrick?

:wtf:

Sorry, Patrick shares my values. She does not.

Same thing here. Obama is closer to my values than Hillary Clinton. Both are closer than McCain.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

20. Yep.

Obama is far from perfect, but he hasn't fully embraced neo-con policies like Clinton has. That said, I will pick her over McCain in a heartbeat.

[EFerrari]

17. That's not a feminist argument for supporting Clinton, that's blackmail.

:hi:

[Raejeanowl]

19. That Is Wrong

Just as wrong as calling someone a racist for not supporting Obama.

[anonymous171]

21. The death of 2nd wave feminism is hard to watch.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. What's shocking to me

Is how blind women like Gloria Steinem and Erica Jong continue to be to their white privilege. It's like we're having a rehash of the old argument about black men getting the vote before white women did. In fact, Steinem even referred to it in her NYT essay as a reason to support Hillary over him. It's the white woman's turn, you know. I have a tremendous amount of admiration for the older women who led the way for us younger generations. But I'm really disheartened to see their willingness to accept the racism that is used against Obama constantly, particularly by the Clinton campaign.

[knixphan]

23. I'm an AA male...

And I'm just imagining someone telling me I MUST vote for Al Sharpton, or else I'm not really supporting the AA community...

Besides laughing for a while, I'd actually be insulted...

[Downtown Hound]

24. I wonder how that woman would react

If I said that only real men supported Obama, and that you weren't a real man if you supported Hillary. I think there a lot of things wrong about supporting Hillary Clinton, but gender issues have nothing to do with it. I'd vote for a woman in a heartbeat if I felt she had integrity and shared my values. Hillary doesn't qualify.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

29. I have a personal policy of not voting for neocons whenever possible

Sometimes there's no choice, as in if Clinton were running against McCain.

[FlaGranny]

26. I'll betcha I know who. n/t

[libnnc]

27. hmmm...so I'm supposed to vote for Liddy Dole?

k.

:crazy:

[liberaldem4ever]

30. I'm a 45 year old woman

And I would love to have a woman president of the US. That would be a great achievement for women and for the United States. The problem for me is that I don't support the particular woman who is running for president this year. I don't think that she is the right choice for our country. I believe that Barack Obama is the best candidate based on his ideas and his character. Someday I hope that a woman will win the presidency. Just not Hillary Clinton, who is a good senator. No offense to any Hillary supporters. It's just the way I feel.

[adoraz]

55. stop with the sexist crap please

What part of "Voting against Hillary is sexist" do you not understand?


just kidding of course :)

Good post though.

[Tresalisa]

31. Neither Obama nor Clinton is my ideal candidate.

I was for Kucinich. I will vote for whomever gets the nomination, and happily so at this point, but to suggest I cannot be a feminist if I did not vote for Clinton makes my blood boil. It's not an "all for one, one for all" proposition. If it was, as a poster has already said, I'd vote for Libby Dole or Condoleeza Rice if they were running - and you can file that one under AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!

[housewolf]

32. The overall goal of the feminist movement was to give women as individuals more CHOICE

more choice in where they work, the kind of work they do, not to work if they choose, who they marry (or divorce), choices in childbearing (or not), lifestyle, gaining equality in pay rates and status.

The main thing that men had prior to the feminst movement that women wanted was MORE CHOICE and FREEDOM in their individual lives.

The feminist movement was all about increasing CHOICES and FREEDOM for women as INDIVIDUALS. So that EACH woman could make decisions and take actions in accordance with who SHE is, her thoughts and beliefs, what she believes is right and correct for herself.

The very concept that women need to be bound by some sort of political sisterhood and constricted to voting for anyone based on a candidate's gender is antithetical to the very premises that the feminist movement was founded upon. Those women who resort to tactics such as name-calling (as "traitor" to womenhood, "not a REAL feminist") or coercion in order to gain support for their candidate are seriously reverting to pre-feminism patriarchial modalities.

As an early baby boomer who came of age in the late 60's and early 70's, I understand their desire for a woman president and the desperation they feel now, thinking that it was within their reach. And I think they need to seriously and objectively consider their tactics because it's not winning them friends, support OR the election.

"Real" feminists rejoice in each individual woman making decisions and taking actions based on what each woman believes and decides what SHE thinks is right.

[powergirl]

42. Amen sister!

n/t

[Terran]

33. Use of his middle name in the post...

is a clue that person is probably not really a feminist, and may be a troll.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

35. Oh, I've been suspecting that for a while.

Not only does she make dog whistle racial references, but she uses offensive sexist terminology on a fairly regular basis.

That said, her comment reflects an attitude I actually encounter among some Hillary supporters in my life. You should support her because she's a woman, no questions asked.

[Political Heretic]

34. Just remember the person who said it is probbly 19 years old and never studied actual feminst theory

in her life, and has probably never been actually active in feminist movements in any way other than being an armchair commando.

Just stick to what you know to be right. You are absolutely free to support Obama OR Hillary Clinton based on who you think will be the most qualified president, without someone questioning your feminism.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

38. True.

But the sad thing is that women who actually HAVE studied feminist theory, hell, even written a lot of it, are espousing this argument. Gloria Steinem, Robin Morgan, Erica Jong among others seem to want Hillary to be elected so badly that they've lost their damn minds. I'd like to ask each of them what, exactly, is feminist about being a warmongering neocon tool? How does support for things like cluster bombs fit into their feminism? Are they not the least bit bothered that their preferred candidate gets the most contributions from the defense industry, by far?

[Political Heretic]

56. I'd like to offer an opinion on that, if you can stand it even though I'm man :)

I think what you are seeing even from some well known pillars of feminist thought and action are the effects of cultural oppression. Forgive me if this is sounds pretentious, but to some extent marxian theories of "false consciousness" come to mind.

I think that, due to a long standing legacy of patriarchy and cultural oppression, even brilliant theorists and activists can become to some extent "desperate" for symbols of change -- to the point where the desire for a symbol becomes almost more important than a rational analysis of what might actually be most likely to produce change.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, ignore my icon; I am not arguing in this post that Obama is a better change agent for women than Clinton. I am speaking abstractly. A hypothetical example: the scenario I am describing would be like an election pitting a moderately conservative woman against a liberal man who had been life long staunch advocate of radical women's equality and friend of feminism (Profeminst)

Pro-feminism refers to support of the cause of feminism without implying that the supporter is a member of the feminist movement. The term is most often used in reference to men who are actively supportive of feminism and of efforts to bring about gender equality. A number of pro-feminist men are involved in political activism, most often in the areas of women's rights and violence against women. (wiki definition)

Okay, so there would be some women out there, some feminist scholars and some activists who so deeply, passionately, intensely want to see a female overcome social and political barriers and become president that they would ignore the record, character and positions of the man and vote for the woman-as-SYMBOL.

The trouble for me, is that I don't have much faith in the power of symbols. And I don't believe that electing a (again in my hypothetical example) a moderately conservative woman actually does anything to serve as a positive symbol for women. Having a women in the highest office that symbolizes all the wrong things about women doesn't do any good.

Now back to reality - in this election we don't have such a binary choice. There are many arguments to be made for women supporting obama and many arguments to be made for women supporting clinton. I just wish that those feminists who are wrapped up in Clinton-as-symbol could take a step back and remember that the freedom of women to support the person the believe to be the best candidate regardless of gender is the whole point of fighting for equality.

[ecstatic]

36. And Ann Coulter too, should she run?

No thanks. Hillary initially had my vote for that reason, but when I got to know her, she lost my vote but more importantly, my respect. I can't stand her. It was really HARD to toss aside the idea of the first female president, but her disgusting behavior made the transition easier.

[Cha]

37. hilary's a tool and she'd

have a sex change operation if she thought it would get her ass back in the white house.

Disclaimer..I don't think there's anything wrong with sex change operations.

[Jed Dilligan]

39. I think you were talking to a troll. nt

[mrreowwr_kittty]

45. I agree. But I've encountered this attitude among women I know in real life.

They echo the statement in the OP almost word for word. Except for the Barney Frank part, that was a rhetorical flourish on the part of the troll.

[Jed Dilligan]

46. They are just immature--boys vs. girls, like in 3rd grade.

I would shrug it off if I were you. If I was a Clinton supporter I wouldn't take that kind of bullying from other men.

[powergirl]

40. If I didn't support Elizabeth Dole for president does that mean I'm not a true feminist?

Luckily, us feminists are empowered to make choices to pick that candidate that will best advance the rights of women. Clinton does not help women by crying and carrying on during the campaign. She demeans us. Her taking money from any lobbiest with change jingling in his/her pocket/purse demeans women. Her using her husband's fame to propel her to her senate position pisses us feminists off who worked our asses off w/o the help of a husband/president.

I've heard this shit before from other Clinton supporters here in Texas. They are still p.o.'d at me and everyone else, for that matter.

[azmouse]

41. I'll be happy to support a woman for President when one worth voting for runs.

I vote with my mind not with my reproductive parts.

[TragedyandHope]

43. Women for Obama

[izzybeans]

44. If they were a real feminist they could see beyond gender and find allies.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. Who gets to decide on who's a "real" anything?

Real Feminist
Real woman
Real Democrat
Real man
Real liberal
Real patriot
Real expert
Real progressive
Real whatever

??????:shrug:

[Armstead]

49. It's CUTE how the poster made sure to use Obama's middle name

Very enlightened attitude there.

I smell a troll.....Or else a narrow minded idiot who mistakes hate for feminism.

[Citizen Kang]

50. Actually I have the opposite to be true

The most liberated women I have met are voting for Obama on his merits and skill as a politician not because his opponent is a women and so are they.

[Zachstar]

52. Um why did you not hit alert?

My thought

[mrreowwr_kittty]

53. I don't really consider the statement alert-worthy.

Besides, to be honest, she was responding to a rather snarky comment I made. My point in this OP is not to so much to analyze the DUer who made it as it is to discuss her statement. What she said is very similar to sentiments expressed to me by several women I encounter in real life. I can't tell you how many times a person will be surprised that I, a self-described and very vocal feminist, support Obama. It's become assumed that feminist = Clinton supporter, and comments like the one I quoted reflect that.

[lmbradford]

54. I am a real feminist......

who is voting for OBAMA. He is much more progressive and the values that he projects are very close to my own. I vote with my mind not my uterus.