Obama has to win in PA to get the nomination. He has to show he is a winner and not a whiner.

[CK_John]

A close loss is not going to be enough. At this point it's not about Hillary but about him. He has to show he can get votes and not just crowds.

[CATagious]

1. bs nm

[yourguide]

2. LOLOL

So all of those other states he won don't count huh?

[EFerrari]

3. Is this what the Clinton campaign sent out today? n/t

[PoliticalAmazon]

80. It's called "move the goal-posts," and it would do Karl Rove proud. n/t

[EFerrari]

89. These Republican gestures are so easy. An 8th grader could do it.

And, then our political life would be the equivalent of perpetual Junior High.

[Dbdmjs1022]

4. Is that the sound of moving goalposts I here?

Obama is proving that he's a winner by winning 2x the states Hillary has and 160 more delegates. He proved that he can get votes during that 12 state winning streak. The idea that his PA showing alone will determine what kind of candidate he is is crazy.

[SoFlaJet]

23. so in other words we should let the DLCers MAKE all the rules

as they see fit that will benefit THEIR candidate right? OK, no thanks, the DLC strategy has lost us the last 2 presidencies and we finally were able to recover from what they cost us by losing the congress in 94...been there-done that

[Cheap_Trick]

84. exclusive pic! Hillary of Arc's team hard at work

[NightWatcher]

5. PA is Hillary's last chance. IF she doesnt win by 20% the supers are gonna flood in for O

starting Wednesday morning.

There is a very good chance that this will all be over by next weekend.

[CK_John]

8. It will go on until Aug, IMO n/t

[thoughtcrime1984]

18. I'll bet you 5000 dollars that it won't go until August. nt

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

25. its at point of wasting donor dollars that need to be spent fighting GOP

Hillary can't catch up, can't win, but she sure is showing us
the worst of the Clintons, and why we need such complete change from the
politics of the past.

[CK_John]

59. IMO, you have a gambling problem. n/t

[JBoy]

74. Winning at gambling is not a problem.

[thoughtcrime1984]

82. IMO, you know it won't go until August. nt

[SoonerPride]

20. It ends after Indiana and N Carolina IMHO.

A close loss in Penn (5-8%, but delegates nearly evenly split) followed by two solid wins in N Caorilna and Indiana and then the curtain falls on the Clinton campaign

[Quixote1818]

45. I agree, party leaders will start putting incredible pressure on Clinton to get out

I suspect she will probably drop out right after NC so she will come across as reasonable and as someone who cares about the party.

[kid a]

78. Thats real cute: "winner not a whiner" Did that come directly from Hill this morning?

[Occam Bandage]

6. So if having the most votes and delegates doesn't make him a "winner,"

what does that make Hillary?

[Dr.Phool]

15. Inevitable!

:nopity: :hangover: :hurts: :beer: :thumbsdown: :banghead: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[undeterred]

7. At this point Hillary can pack her bags and write her concession speech

and her supporters can stop giving advice to the nominee.

[shadowknows69]

9. Is that where the new goal posts are?

I think Hillary is 4th and long at this point.

[Waya]

10. What crap.......

.......if he keeps it within 10 points he's fine.......

[doublethink]

11. He's already won 30 of 44 states.

By your standards that's Obama 30 Hillary 14. A blowout. And with what 10 left ... she can't win.

[40ozDonkey]

12. It's not about Hillary, you say? Then... why is she still in?

She's trying to make a case for electability, and saying that Obama can only win eventually isn't a respectable case.

65% of Pennsylvania is what she needs to start tying him in delegates.
That's the goalpost. It's been consistent.

[global1]

30. If Hillary Was A Man - She Would Have Gentlemanly Dropped Out Of The ......

race by now. It is the gentlemanly thing to do - given the numbers.

[40ozDonkey]

57. That's not very rational. A better case would be to win 65% of each state.

That way, she has an electability argument in regards to delegates, instead of forcing her supporters to play pretend.

[WillyT]

13. These Things Are Pretty Heavy... You Must Be Getting Tired Of Moving Them...

:rofl::evilgrin::rofl:

[SoFlaJet]

LOL

pretty good Willy

[Crunchy Frog]

14. No he doesn't. He only has to have more delagates than Hillary,

and a sufficient number of supers behind him.

Nice try though.

[demwing]

16. DUDE!

You're SOOOOO stoned!

[SoonerPride]

17. Hillary has to win by 20% or she must quit

Don't move those goalpasts to Puerto Rico.

Win by 20 or you are out, Clinton.

[Schema Thing]

19. Horse Hockey

It's been well known that PA is Hillary's to lose for months. Nothing has changed in that respect. Obama is winning the overall contest, and still will be, decisively, even if he loses PA by ten.

[NightOwwl]

21. Ummm..

Actually, Hillary has to win by at least 20% to be considered somewhat viable.

And even then she still won't be the nominee.

[wisteria]

22. You are wrong Hillary about the outcome and who are YOU accusing of whinning? n/t

[backscatter712]

24. got math?

You might want to go look up the delegate counts, and rethink your assessment. Not to say I disagree with it, but IT'S COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WRONG!!!

[CK_John]

28. If Edwards un-suspends his campaign, your math becomes imaginary. n/t

[Liberal Gramma]

39. Not likely

Why would Edwards, who suspended his campaign for the good of the party, re-open it to screw the Democratic chances for victory this fall? There are lots of us who like Edwards, but that's a non-starter.

[wpelb]

41. The key word here

"If Edwards un-suspends his campaign": what evidence is there that he's going to do that?

If Sen. Obama suspends his campaign, Sen. Clinton will be in even better shape. If means nothing.

[karynnj]

56. There is no way anyone would give it the man who spent the last

5 or 6 years running for President, who won only ONE primary. (I know that he got NC too but it was after Kerry was the defacto nominee.) He was lack luster as a VP candidate and it is not as though he has some kind of golden resume. The candidate will almost certainly be Obama, with a very small possibility that it would be HRC.

A brokered convention that elected someone who was in THIRD place when he quit is not going to happen - it is less likely than them picking Gore or Kerry- which is unlikely. Do you remember how many superdelegates Edwards had at his peak? He is not all that favored among his peers. I know how you feel - you look at Edwards and think he's perfect. The majority of people don't. There is absolutely no justification based on his ability to get votes (1 primary) or his rather lackluster record. It also is completely overturning the will of the people - as would giving it to someone - like Gore or Kerry - with really solid records.

This would be like me suggesting Gore, who has a Nobel Prize and won in 2000 or Kerry, who after all nearly won in a tougher race. I could say that Kerry has already shown that he can debate McCain on Iraq and win hands down. He has real credentials on both healthcare and on the environment, where Edwards has only plans. Kerry also has passed the CIC test and since 2006, even some conservatives like George Will have said that he was right in 2004 when they ridiculed him on how to deal with non-state terrorism. He after all is the guy who closed OBL's bank and it is his legislation on international money laundering that is one of our best tools. I could go on - but the point is that he, like Gore, did not run and thus did not win and will not be drafted.

[CK_John]

61. He may do it just to be VP or want to just settle old scores. But if he gets in

it will open the flood gates for others and send the convention off on a quest for a winner.

[karynnj]

62. No it wouldn't - what would it even mean

Is he even on the ballot in PA, In, or NC? He also has said he doesn't want to be VP - and I seriously doubt he would get it. He has less experience than Obama - so an Obama/Edwards ticket makes no sense. Also, Edwards has spoken proudly of his refusal to use the Kerry slogan. Now, if he showed no deference the a man he acknowledged as more experienced, do you think he would toe the line with Obama? If HRC is the candidate, what does he bring to the ticket in the general election?

[CK_John]

63. It would mean a brokered convention and everything is in play. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

26. Wow. Massive goal post movement.

PA has shifted from a Clinton must win big to an Obama must win?

It would be nice if Obama won, as Clinton would have to just admit it and quit. but he does not have to win in PA, she does. He just has to show up in Denver with more committed delegates than Clinton.

[grytpype]

27. Hillary has to quit now, she's lost the nomination and is just trying to tear a good man down

Ditch

The

Bitch

[Willo]

29. New Rendell goalpost link please. ty. n/t

[Avalux]

31. The race is already over. Even if Hillary wins PA by 20 points, she only gains about 8 delegates.

Why people still hold on to the notion she can win the nomination is pathetic. She's burned so many bridges anyway; even if she somehow would manage to snag it - she can't beat McCain. She's pissed off too many Democrats.

[Orsino]

32. Goal posts moved again.

Please update your scorecards.

[wpelb]

33. I'm not following the logic here

"He (Obama) has to show he can get votes and not just crowds."

Hasn't Sen. Obama been doing just that? I could see the argument if he had been losing primaries but winning caucuses and delegates (like Nevada), but there are a number of states where he has won the popular vote by rather substantial numbers.

[AllentownJake]

34. So...

Even if he has the delgate lead and popular vote Hillary gets it because of one state that fits her demographics perfectly.


Ladies and Gentleman the Goal Post have been moved yet again.

[slinkerwink]

35. Don't be silly. Obama won't win PA. He'll lose by 12.

[JackORoses]

36. Don't worry, President Obama will easily win PA in the General Election.

It's going to be beautiful!

[rocktivity]

37. Obama doesn't have to win a thing from here on in

All he has to do is prevent Hillary from getting 65% of the vote in ANY of the remaining contests.

And Obama HAS been getting votes as well as crowds--that's why he has more delegates, primary/caucus wins, and popular votes than Hillary. SHE'S the one who has prove she's a winner!

:headbang:
rocknation

[karynnj]

38. That is BS - Obama is ahead on every dimension

As to whining do you forget when Bill Clinton was ridiculed for saying that the normal front runner questioning that HRC got in the Philly debate where she mishandled the immigration question was "swiftboating".

Then remember the near tears of HRC when she thought she was losing.

PA is a state that has great demographics for HRC, she has most of the local Democratic machines and after Texas, she was 20 points up. The fact of the matter is that the ONLY way HRC can win is with HUGE blowouts in all the remaining states - and even then it might require the superdelegates overturning the pledged delagates.

Obviously, Obama HAS gotten votes - if he didn't he wouldn't be beating the candidate who had the Clinton machine, most of the Democratic leaning media and much of the party organization in many states behind her. He is already proving he can beat her. How does she win when 58% of the votes thing she is not trustworthy? Trust once lost is very hard to restore.

[BeyondGeography]

40. Thread's not working out so well for you

is it?

[Bad Thoughts]

42. I might be inclined to agree, but ...

Obama not achieving a victory, whether tactical or strategic, won't mean that Clinton has won either. The appropriate reading should be that both candidates are suspect, their potential in the GE is limited, and the party should look to someone else to be the nominee.

There is no backdoor for Clinton to win. She must accumulate delegates.

[Quixote1818]

43. Is this thread a joke?

:rofl:

[stray cat]

44. Goal Post Change Alert! Hillary no longer has to win by large margin!

Obama has to win. Everybodies attention: Reality change required

[yourguide]

51. Goal post alert, hillary no longer needs to win period...

it should just be given to her :sarcasm:

[stray cat]

52. Annoint her queen because of her lifetime of experience....

[Leopolds Ghost]

71. They Live! Reality change required

EVERYBODIES ATTENTION:
REALITY CHANGE REQUIRED

[stray cat]

46. Hillary needs votes - why hasn't she won with her lifetime of experience?

[Zachstar]

47. Yall have lost your firewall and now the goalposts are moving?

Our goal posts have never moved. We said we wanted to reduce her win months ago and that has not changed.

Stop moving the goalposts.

[NanceGreggs]

48. Sorry, but ...

... being as the Acme Goalpost Moving Company is yet another one of the Hill campaign's unpaid creditors, they won't be doing any more work for her in future.

[U4ikLefty]

73. LOL...Acme Goalpost Moving Company?

I'm gonna borrow that from ya.

[NanceGreggs]

77. Feel free to borrow ...

You'll find their demand for payment letter here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5402126

[Catherina]

49. Actually he doesn't need to do shit. I think that's what pisses you off the most n/t

[KansasVoter]

50. With all due respect....you are an idiot!

[CK_John]

53. Respect my ass. n/t

[wpelb]

65. Is CK_John Ann Coulter?

Considering that Ms. Coulter has "endorsed" Sen. Clinton over even Sen. McCain (though I would suspect that she's lying, at least on that score), CK_John's suggestion that Sen. Edwards might "un-suspend" his campaign, which was helped whenever Ms. Coulter suggested he was a "fag," I get the feeling the CK_John might be Ann Coulter. Getting Sen. Edwards back into the race, by CK_John's reasoning, would help Sen. Clinton by taking away a bunch of delegates from Sen. Obama.

I know this is all very complicated. I can barely follow it myself. :(

[BlooInBloo]

54. No! He has to win by *40* points! hahahaha!

You guys are insane.

[lojasmo]

55. Um, no. You clinton supporters need to brush up on math. EOM

[VenusRising]

58. "He has to show he is a winner and not a whiner."

Well, aren't you clever! How long did it take you to come up with that little gem?

Sorry. That's not what has to happen at all, but your concern is appreciated and noted.

[bowens43]

60. LOL! Complete fucking bullshit.

As far as whining is concerned hillary and supporters have done nothing but whine since the beginning of this thing.

[TML]

64. ROTFL!!!

So this is how you justify losing a 20-point lead? :rofl:

[mudesi]

66. When has he EVER whined?

Clinton, though, has been whining for 2 months now.

[paulk]

67. he's outspending her by four to one.

He should win PA.

You're right - if he continues to lose these big, diverse states, despite massively outspending his opponent, people are going to start asking why.

[stray cat]

68. If people only voted for money - Romney would be the republican nominee

any why is Obama outspending her - has she tapped out all the wealthy fund raisers already?

[CK_John]

69. And Romney may still be their nominee. n/t

[thoughtcrime1984]

86. They've known her for 20 years, he's playing catch-up

He is getting the donations from his supporters, he might as well spend the money. Also, he didn't have the state machinery, ie. Governors, Senators, state party members in place like Hillary had from the beginning, OR the aura of invincibility and a 150 SD head start. He's overcome a lot in a short period of time. He's doing great getting 45% of the vote in some of these bigger states, and flat out crushing in some of the medium and smaller states. I'd like to see how Cali, and even TX and OH would go just a month or two after their votes. The more he is known in a state, the better he seems to do, while Hillary keeps slipping the longer she is in a state. It's why she lost Iowa, and just might lose PA. Too much time for the locals to REALLY get to know Barack (good) and Hillary (not so good).

[stevenleser]

70. Official Dumb Posit *PLONK*

[Arugula Latte]

72. Also, Obama has to play ring toss upon a unicorn's horn

If he doesn't make two out of three, he's TOAST!11!!1!

[kid a]

75. The shrooms are kicking in..

Or else what??

[Obamaniac]

76. That's right

Hillary only needs to win 15 to 20 primaries out 50 to win the nomination.

Everyone knows that.

Maybe if Clinton and her supporters weren't always trying to spin and play expectations games they might not be in the mess they are in.

[stillcool]

79. Hillary 20+...

stay on track! We're in Hillary country...another firewall..I forget, how much does she have to win by, to come close to Senator Obama?

[Vinca]

81. This is another one of Hillary's home states. If she doesn't win

by a very large margin it won't look good. Keeping my fingers crossed this race will end it.

[Gore1FL]

83. Gosh if he doesn't win

Does that mean we don't have a nominee then? After Hillary has been out of it since Wisconsin.

[Lucky 13]

85. Obama has already proven he can get the votes. THAT'S WHY HE'S AHEAD!!!

Your moveable benchmarks are PATHETIC. Two months ago she was up 20 pts in PA. He's closed it to UNDER 5 in that time.

SHE needs a big win, by at LEAST 10 points to remain even VIABLE in this race. The FRONTRUNNER doesn't have to prove anything. The one trying to overtake him does. SHE needs to prove she can bring in the votes.

[goletian]

87. hes already won... - nt

[CreekDog]

88. Whiner? Are you 10 years old?

:eyes:

[City Lights]

90. Clinton needs to show she can turn a huge lead into a huge win.

If she can't hold onto a huge, early lead with every conceivable advantage against a virtual unknown, there's no way she can come from behind to beat McCain.