Is Hillary a more shameless liar than George W. Bush?

[Radical Activist]

Its one thing to lie during a campaign. Its another thing for Hillary to base her entire Ohio campaign strategy (and again in PA) on a absolute, complete, shameless, fully documented, proven LIE about her supposed early opposition to NAFTA and her distortion of Obama's stance on trade.

If you haven't read about the documents that prove she lied about her position on NAFTA then read this article:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/20/opinion/main3955120.shtml

Not only that but she was indignant when Obama sent out a mailing in Ohio that told the truth about her long-standing support for NAFTA. "Shame! Shame on you!" she screamed! Its not enough that she based an entire campaign on lying to and duping Ohio voters. She had to indignantly act offended when Obama told the truth. What an actress! What a performance! Someone give her an Oscar!

Is someone who lies like this and plays such a completely dishonest and disgustingly cynical game with the public any better than George W. Bush?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. It's tough to be a more shameless liar than Dubya.

But she seems to be working on it.

[dailykoff]

2. My vote would be yes.

They're both neocon enablers, but at least Junior doesn't try to pass himself off as a Dem.

[RazBerryBeret]

3. Simple answer...

NO.

this Ohioan is still pissed about that. she drops the big "shame on you" the Saturday before the primary. the smoke doesn't have a chance to clear before we vote. I voted Obama, cause I haven't trusted her for a long time, but some people did.

[stellanoir]

4. I don't feel that she is a very convincing actress.

I can't begin to compare her and *'s level of habitual duplicity.

I just know Obama has a wholly different and refreshingly honest vibe.

Am just pleased to see it.

[Shae]

67. "I don't feel that she is a very convincing actress"

No, she isn't, but even so, she comes off as rehearsed.

[blm]

5. Similar, actually - Bush bragged about Texas healthcare for kids in 1999-2000 as part

of his compassionate conservative schtick - except SCHP passed in Texas legislature DESPITE Bush's veto.

[Radical Activist]

51. Exactly. Same early signs.

Good comparison I forgot about.

[PBS Poll-435]

6. Thanks for posting an OPINION piece.

I will form my own. Thanks!

[Radical Activist]

52. Why don't you read the documented facts and evidence

contained in the article. Declassified government documents are not an opinion piece. Weak. Very weak argument. Good job avoiding the issue.

[PBS Poll-435]

92. By there very nature, OP/ED pieces do not document anything.

Where are the footnotes?

[Radical Activist]

94. Then you obviously didn't read this one, which links to government documents.

It sounds you're a case of willful ignorance. Op/Ed pieces include factual statements and arguments all the time.

[Extend a Hand]

7. oh good grief

That's like comparing a person to Hitler. I can't WAIT until the primary is over.

[Tribetime]

39. I 2nd that

[tularetom]

8. Can't answer that - but she's nowhere near as good at lying

And I think that's part of her problem - you can watch her lie and know she's lying. Her eye movements and facial expressions give it away.

Of course with bush you know he's lying by the fact that his mouth is open and words are coming out. But he's a lot better at concealing it. Shit he's been lying his whole life. Hillary got a late start.

I'd love to get in a poker game with her.

[FrenchieCat]

9. Yes, she's a more shameless liar.

It is obvious to anyone paying attention. It is just that some folks find her lying clever. Guess that is the only way that they can rationalize it to themselves. I almost don't blame them. They are in a hard position. Must take a lot to stay that deluded.

[boppers]

10. Fake warriors, fake peacemakers, fake humanitarians.

Facts seem to have a progressive bias.

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. I'd say yes, because the Moron In Chief actually believes all the

crap he spews.

[Bake]

41. BullSHIT.

If you think W believes his crap, I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona for you.

Bushie doesn't believe a syllable of his spiel. You can see it in his face. He's lying, he knows it, we know it, everybody knows it. He just doesn't give a damn.

Bake

[backscatter712]

12. She wasn't the one that told all the whoppers that got us into Iraq...

Granted, she voted for that war, and I'm not forgiving her for that, but no, I'd say Bush is the bigger liar.

Of course, there's also Plame-Gate, the U.S. Attorney firings and the whole litany of crimes out of the Bush Administration.

Hillary's a pathological liar, but not nearly so much as Bush.

[Zhade]

40. In terms of scope, you're spot on.

Of course, if she were president (thank goodness she won't have that chance) we might find her impact to be as great.

[Radical Activist]

53. Hillary did repeat some of the lies that got is into Iraq

including the supposed connection to Al Qaeda and WMD's. Read her Senate speech when she explained her vote for a reminder.

[Buzz Clik]

13. My initial reaction was a firm "No!" But upon reflection, there are some complexities.

Bush is not bright. He is carefullly controlled by his handlers who keep him tightly on script for important moments. I'm guessing that sometimes he doesn't even know that the ca-ca he's dishing out is pure fabrication.

Hillary knows better.

That makes it a tough call.

:shrug:

[Kokonoe]

63. Wake up now.

If you think W believes his crap, I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona for you.

[Buzz Clik]

74. Well, I said he doesn't believe it. I guess you'll need to find another buyer

[AtomicKitten]

14. Well, let's just say she's giving him a run for the title.

[pnwmom]

15. No. n/t

[Liberal Gramma]

16. I don't think anyone has died for her lies yet, so I'd have to say no

[dailykoff]

20. Afghanis, Iraqis, and Palestinians aren't people?

Only in Hillyworld, also known as Cheneyland.

[Liberal Gramma]

50. Ah, you're talking about the vote for the war.

She didn't lie about that--in fact she seems convinced she did the right thing. It was negligent, and the wrong vote, but not a lie. I am certainly not defending her on her vote, but it was Bush who told the porky there.

And, Dailykoff, I support Obama.

[Radical Activist]

54. She did repeat the lies about WMD's

and ties to Al Qaeda. She shares the blame.

[Liberal Gramma]

62. Of course she shares the blame.

But I still think it's hard to beat Bush on the subject of lies.

[AllentownJake]

17. Not yet

But make her President and we might find out.

[dailykoff]

18. Compare their bio whoppers:

Junior whitewashed away his DUI and AWOL, but Hilly lies about about the whole damn thing, including the WalMart years that she never mentions, and four years of college Republican activity -- in the middle of the sixties!!!

[Mooney]

19. No.

I am no fan of HRC, but she isn't even a fraction of the psychopath that Bush is, or that anyone in his administration is.

[Toucano]

21. It's not like she's Lieberman or Zell Miller for pete's sake!

I think you've gone a bit too far here.

I don't agree with every Clinton vote or statement, but if you look at the record, she's opposed Bush far more than she's enabled him.

A lot of Democrats supported NAFTA out of a genuine belief that it would open up markets to US made goods. Among them, Sen. Kerry and Sen. Kennedy.

IIRC, Bill Clinton opposed NAFTA in 1991 and when he changed his position, 41 famously said he would turn "the White House into the Waffle House". It is entirely possible that she's not technically lying and initially did oppose NAFTA, but once the position changed, she worked to see it passed.

More U.S. jobs have been lost to China and India than Mexico or Canada, no?

Just to be clear, I opposed NAFTA from the beginning and would like to see it eliminated. Any agreement that allows the free movement of capital, but not the free movement of labor is not "free trade".

[grasswire]

22. okay, you people are nuts

This isn't even amusing any more. Bush stole an election, lied us into war, destroyed the Department of Justice, renigged on treaties and destroyed our reputation in the world, yada yada yada and you compare Hillary to THAT treasonous bastard?

You people are nuts.

[dailykoff]

23. And Hillary endorsed it all.

She could have fought it, even stopped it, but no, she hitched a ride on the gravy train and voted up Junior's lies.

:mad:

[TahitiNut]

33. Please don't say "nuts" like it's a 'Bad Thing.'

Thanks.

This is a public service posting on behalf of the Association of Fruits and Nuts, International, DU Chapter.

[Zhade]

43. It's a question of degree, not kind. They both lie far too readily.

NT!

[Radical Activist]

56. She hasn't been given those opportunities yet.

Her lies are similar to how Bush acted during the 2000 campaign.

[BlooInBloo]

24. Of course not. How fucking asinine.

[HooptieWagon]

25. both Bush and Clinton are pathological liars

Don't see any difference between the two.

[msongs]

26. a more shameless liar than che guevara even? nt

[Sparkly]

27. No. nt

[IsItJustMe]

28. Hard one to call. Pretty damn close.

[JohnnyLib2]

29. Flamebait on a Saturday night?

:thumbsdown:

[Mike Nelson]

30. nobody is as wretched as Bush

nobody comes close

[cliffordu]

31. Does the Pope shit at the White House???

[AZBlue]

32. Yes.

[Medusa]

34. Yes.

Because W is an idiot who actually believes his own lies. Hillary knows better and does it anyway for personal gain. MUCH WORSE.

[eridani]

35. In a word, NO.

For a Dem, though, she's moving toward the Miller/Lieberman category.

[Cali_Democrat]

36. Yes

Bush is semi-retarded and he actually believes his own bullshit. Hillary knows she's lying.

[bowens43]

37. Yes

[Zhade]

38. Considering her intelligence versus that of b*s*, she's worse.

He's an idiot led by the nose a lot of the time, she knows exactly what she's doing when she lies repeatedly (and like b*s*' lies, we have evidence of those lies).

[quickesst]

42. Obama supporters....

in their neverending quest to disgust, and alienate app. half the democratic party, are hopefully not representitive of most. If his supporters here on DU, are in fact, typical, it's going to be difficult to put trust in a man who's "base", is so full of hatred for other democrats. It's a reflection on Obama, and not a flattering one. Hell, I think O worshipers are twice as bad as the best bushbot in lowbrow behavior, and if Obama still gets my vote if nominated, it will be because the fear of McCain at the helm, outweighs my disgust of Obama's supporters. Voting for Obama, based on the perception given by his supporters, however, is beginning to make that prospect less and less desirable. How low will Obama supporters go? Apparently the poison well from which they drink, is deeper than anyone thought, and it seems the tide is rising. I'm thankful, more than anyone will ever know, that I have not slipped down into the delusional pit from whence his supporters draw their strength. I had enough of that during 2000 and 2004 to last a lifetime. Thanks.
quickesst

[Zhade]

45. Yeah, because WE'RE the ones who lie about things like nonexistent sniper fire.

Dismissed.

[RaleighNCDUer]

48. Great rant. How about another one

on why Hillary lies?

[Radical Activist]

58. The divisions are a natural result of Hillary's actions in the primary.

This is what happens when you run an ugly and deceptive smear campaign against another Democrat. She'll ultimately have to take responsibility for that when this primary is over.

[Bake]

44. You people are so over the top it's fucking ridiculous.

You make me embarassed to be a Democrat, if in fact that's what you claim to be.

And you wonder why we call you a cult.

Bake

[Radical Activist]

59. But the shameless lying and fakery doesn't bother you?

ok. sure.

[Bake]

75. And if you believe in your heart that Obama hasn't lied in this campaign

then you're waaaaaaaay to naive to be involved in politics. Obama is a politician, and on the surface at least, a pretty good one. Politicians lie about stuff. It's in their damn DNA. He's lied too. Obama's not the real deal either. Just a better fake, perhaps.

Bake

[Radical Activist]

77. And how does that make Hillary a better candidate again?

Obama hasn't done anything to the level of the example I give in the OP. Basing the central theme of your campaign in a state on a lie and putting on a huge performance to cover it up is taking things to a whole other level.

[Bake]

83. Once again, Obama is perfect, flawless.

He must be The One. The Messiah.

Bake

[Radical Activist]

84. Once again. You straw-man and avoid responding to my points.

Slamming Obama doesn't make Hillary better and you can't post a comparable example.

[Bake]

87. His entire campaign - "new kind of politics" - is a lie.

It's the same old, Chicago-style politics. He just gets his minions to do his dirty work, throwing the race card, etc.

Bake

[Radical Activist]

93. Four tries and still not a single example.

Funny how you call Obama a liar four times but can't give one specific example.

[TexanDem]

46. The question is: If Hillary WANTED to push an agenda, how far would SHE go?

She has demonstrated over and over again, she will do or say whatever it takes to get what she wants. So, I'd say that pretty much makes them about equal the way I see it.

[Radical Activist]

91. Good point.

What won't she do?

[superkia]

47. Bush is doing it to further the elites agenda and doesnt give...

a shit what the American people think, Clinton on the other hand is running around doing it wearing a sheep costume. I would rather know who I am dealing with instead of having the wolf watching over the sheep while hiding in a D costume.

[Radical Activist]

60. The Shock Doctrine clears it up.

You see the pattern in other countries of running free trade pro-elite candidates who portray themselves as populists. That's the Clintons.

[Perry Logan]

49. Show me someone who calls Hillary a liar, and I'll show you a liar.

[Radical Activist]

61. Then why don't you dispute what's in the National article?

Can you? Please try.

[Zhade]

70. The videotape of the Tuzla landing.

Can't really call that evidence a liar, now can you?

[DemGa]

55. Oh, much of this thread is a real shocker!

Thanks for the laugh!

[Andy823]

57. Nope

But give her a little more time and who knows, she is damned good lying! :eyes:

[Swamp Rat]

64. Nobody is as bad as Bushler... NOBODY!

[Kool Kitty]

69. No kidding. Bush is in a class by himself.

[Swamp Rat]

71. ... from another galaxy

[Stephanie]

65. Credit her ACTING COACH

I hope his checks aren't bouncing - he earned the dough, she's just a no-talent student.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4749751

[apocalypsehow]

66. Just as shameless for sure, but her lies don't have the same impact since she's not in power. n/t.

[scot]

68. Depends on what your definition of "liar" is.........

If you're too stupid to know what you're saying is wrong, are you a liar, or just stupid?

[cboy4]

72. What a joke you people are....you claim Hillary is a

more shameless liar than George W Bush .. one of the worst people to ever hold office in the world.

You don't sound like Democrats to me.

Not one bit. :thumbsdown:

[intaglio]

73. No - n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

76. She's more polished as a liar than Bush and seems to have more experience.

But, to be fair, poor Boobya is a bumbling idiot whose command of the English language is severely handicapped by his lack of a measurable IQ.

Whereas, Hillary, has the benefit of a college education and the example of a notably mendacious spouse.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

78. I just hope she doesn't become president. we'll have more WMD lies

[ej510]

79. Hell no! She been bad but Bush has been devastating.

[Kahuna]

80. Hmmm. That's a tough one. nt

[NC_Nurse]

81. Now THAT's a scary thought.

I sure hope not. :(

[Radical Activist]

82. I'll be headed to your state soon

if this thing isn't over after PA.

[NC_Nurse]

86. Whereabouts?

WE live in the Triangle - Chapel Hill/Carrboro to be exact. :hi:

[Radical Activist]

89. I'm thinking Asheville

Its always fun.

[Life Long Dem]

85. She lies, that's for sure.

Is she any better? I don't think so. I'm taking into account what she lies about. Bush will lie about Iran and say something weeks or months ago that will be said later to make a relationship to it.

That's what scares me about Clinton as well. When she lied about snipers or terrorist I thought about how Bush would use this to make connections for his mission of whatever it is. Clinton could have said that about Bosnia to continue a war on terror and the list goes on to what rights we would lose.

Bottom line. I don't trust her at all. And I have a lot more trust in Obama. McSame forget it. They just sent Rice to Iraq because it has gotten badly out of hand recently and McSaame will look at you and say our occupation in Iraq is working. This when Iraq just told the U.S. they want us out of Iraq.

[rodeodance]

88. Obama LIES --that is for sure--He is a phony

[Radical Activist]

90. Several people have written that on this thread but not a single example so far.

Yep.

[anonymous171]

95. George Steph should have asked her that question.

You know, just to be fair :evilgrin:

[NJmaverick]

96. I would see they are more or less equal in this catagory