So Hillary should not criticize Obama in any way. She destroys the party by doing so?

[Skip Intro]

That is the basic argument, yes?

[anonymous171]

1. She should be attacking Obama in a way that proves that she is a true democrat.

Not a republican. Saying "Obama is not pro-choice enough" could be an attack. Saying he's elitist is a repug smear and stupid.

[Hoof Hearted]

58. So when Obama accuses PA and her supporters of being racists .. .. .. ..

[my3boyz]

76. Many of them are racists! nt

[democracy1st]

81. can you show me the links so that I can read that

[democrattotheend]

88. Rendell's the one who said PA is too racist to vote for Obama

When did Obama ever say that?

[rodeodance]

68. and he should be attacking Obama in a way that proves that he is a true democrat

[JoFerret]

73. Oooo a "true" democrat

A true democrat would not trash the economic legacy of the Clinton administration.

Please let Obama know.

[Exilednight]

79. The history of NAFTA trashes Clinton economic legacy..........

and why is a former President on the campaign trail? Bush 41 had enough sense not to campaign for his shrub jr.

[JoFerret]

84. I hope you are looking forward to

an Obama policy on that. Good luck.

And by destroying the credibility of the last democratic presidency you are playing the r/w game. God forbid there should ever have been a successful one.

Trashing the Clintons is easy.
Winning elections is harder.

Start building a winning coalition. That's what has to happen now.

[PinkTiger]

2. No, that is your rationale to silence her campaign, not her plan.

She may criticize him as much as she wants. At least she didn't give him the finger, as he has her.
That is really childish, don't you think?
He is showing his true self - and I'm not impressed. He needs to go back to Illinois and grow up, then come back and run again if he has the stomach for it. He is an embarrassment to our party.

[Dbdmjs1022]

4. Enough with the finger thing already! LOOK!

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JBoy]

17. OMG, check this out! How blatant!

[Fovea]

32. you do that to a wise guy like Fat Tony

and your next ride will be in his trunk with the tow chain and the concrete blocks.

[Life Long Dem]

50. Each of Obama's fingers are used as code for only Obama supporters to know.

Here he is using his pinky. At the 18 second mark. http://www.youtube.com/v/FlR9DNfqGD4

[Dbdmjs1022]

3. She can attack his platforms all she wants. That's why we have the primary.

The part that's harmful to the party is when she attacks his character with smears. The primary shouldn't be about his pastor or his flag pin, it should be about the issues. If she wants to say he has a shitty health care plan, I don't think anyone here would have a problem other than just disagreeing. But when she tries her best to cover him in shit to make him unelectable it's harmful to him, to her, and to the party.

[Levgreee]

5. the basic argument is that she should not use Right-wing memes, which are not valid criticism, but

rather, slander.

It would also be nice if she abstained from criticism which worked to drive a wedge into the party, for example, flip-flopping on Michigan and Florida, just to get some points against Obama.

[PinkTiger]

10. And you get to decide what is "Right Wing" and what isn't?

this board has been overtaken by a bunch of over-the-top progressives who don't have a clue about what it takes to run this country. Go get a clue.

[mcctatas]

16. When a large portion of hillary supporters talking points

come from wing-nut sources, I think the truth is plain enough. If you want to attack his policy positions fine, but if I have to read one more thing on this board about how he doesn't wear a flag pin or how he was linked to bill ayers (one of hannity's favorite masturbatory memes) or anything that links to newsmax etc. I might just puke. I would think that all democrats would want the focus to be on the issues, where BOTH candidates are better than McCain, but you let yourself get co-opted and distracted and it is disgusting!

[PinkTiger]

19. And after all, Obama is an honorable man.......

I think I've heard this one before. Et tu brute.

[mcctatas]

23. oh please....

it's fucked up when any democrat uses rovian tactics on a fellow democrat, and if you can tell me an instance where he has done it to her, that's bullshit too....but he has never, ever, ever insinuated that if he doesn't win the primary, McCain is a better choice, that was so slimy even Karl Rove was proud of her!

[Fovea]

24. Since 1994

The DLC has been bringing the fail.

Some people want that to stop. The DLC won't get a chance to run this country if it can't get the White House. It can't get to the WH because their candidate has higher negatives than positives, and is getting her ass whipped by a black guy whose middle name is Hussein and whose last name rhymes with Osama.

Why? Because he represents the traditional Democratic values and voters the Clintons left behind in their third rail way. The voters who gave up on the party because we were harshing the corporate bizz-buzz with our rust belt poverty and bitterness.

But don't feel bad, he's going to do the same thing to the other Rove candidate, John McSame.

The DLC candidate has decided on a scorched earth policy in this election, and because of that, the DLC's star is falling. The problem with wanting to win in the worst way is that you generally wind up losing in the worst way.

[Zhade]

26. "BRINGING THE FAIL" - that's the perfect slogan for clinton's campaign!

Nice!

[guyanakoolaid]

28. No, it's generally accepted that things Hillary likes such as NAFTA, voting for war, and doublespeak

are very right-wing.

And I don't mind a board overtaken by people willing to fight pro-war candidates.

And we'll see soon enough who has what it takes to run this country when Obama takes office in 2009.

[iconicgnom]

31. You're over the top

Now she's throwing stinkbombs at the Democratic activist base. Not just at important individuals who dare to oppose her, or support the other candidate, like Richardson and etc., but at the general movement. This is what the candidate herself is doing, not some surrogate. Not some drone run by Mark Penn and Charlie Black and John McCain.

And sure, come the GE Charlie Black and Mark Penn (now happily joined in public, as they always have been in private) and John McCain will certainly throw exactly *these* slimeballs at Obama should Obama win the nomination. But that doesn't excuse the HRC campaign for softening Obama up and looking for and creating openings for McCain's Rove/Black/Penn slime machine to exploit - doing the dirty work on the ground, so to speak, in advance of the coming air attack from McCain.

Likewise you bet Black and Penn are gonna slime Move On.

You bet there's a difference between the Democratic and Republican party bases. And now you're sliming this board as being overloaded with "over-the-top progressives who don't have a clue about what it takes to run this country" - so who doesn't get slimed? Oh yah, McCain, who Hillary says has the right stuff.

[Ken Burch]

43. It doesn't take someone who treats activists and blacks as the enemy

And who spreads the lie that activists and blacks are the enemy of working-class whites.

It's only supposed to be Republicans who do things like that.

You know as well as I that it's not possible to run as an antiactivist candidate and then be progressive once you've GAINED power. The Nineties proved this, as even you would have to concede.

[Barrymores Ghost]

45. "Over the top Progressives?"

Why, my dear...you sound positively REPUBLICAN.

[mcctatas]

48. Hillary supporters are shocked and offended by "over the top

progressives" now? Jesus H Christ, where's Rod Serling when you need him? :wtf:

[Gore Edwards]

60. Progressives?

Regressives who just want to achieve online status as legitemate pundits. Ain't they special? The next Rachel Maalox, or Keith obamabann

[susankh4]

54. The problem here is that anything the Obama camp doesn't like is

"right wing memes."

[Gore Edwards]

57. Slander?

Could you give me an example of that? That is a crime and I'm sure that Obama would be entitled to file charges. Has he? And yes, I'm sure that the right-wing won't use right-wing memes in the general election. Be prepared. BTW, what left-wing memes could she use to her advantage? Oh, that's right,they lost them. Or so it seems...

[Renew Deal]

6. Hillary and the republicans are attacking the presumptive nominee.

Quite basic, yes.

[PinkTiger]

13. Presumptive? Yes, Presumptive pain in the ass, that is what he is.

He is not the nominee yet. And if he is, I feel for this country and the party.

[Renew Deal]

14. lol

Case in point. :nopity:

[juajen]

36. You go, Tiger.

I hope you get some traction on this now very slippery board. It doesn't feel like home anymore, does it?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[my3boyz]

77. Oh..you really should not talk about the next president like that! nt

[2rth2pwr]

7. Anything that makes Obama look bad is banned.

He can only take so much, she needs to take it easy on the poor guy.

[Barrymores Ghost]

46. Looks like a real landslide in her favor there, huh? n/t

[DerekJ]

9. Look it's simple.

She said she is more experienced. We said bullshit. But we never said her attack was a republican one, or cried foul.

She said she has the experience, McCain has the experience, and Obama has a speech. We called her a republican.

Can you recognize the difference between both?

[JBoy]

11. When's the last time she made the case for people to vote FOR her?

All I hear from her anymore is why nobody should vote for Obama.

Her TV ads in PA are now 100% negative. http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/04/hillary_tv_ad_campaign_is_100.php

[mcctatas]

18. when she ran out of reasons!

experience my ass!

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Let's see... there was "Inevitability", otherwise known as "vote for me, 'cuz I'm gonna win anyway".

That, uh, didn't work out so well.

[Cant trust em]

49. That's what happens when someone realizes that their pos/neg ratings are set in stone

Clinton knows that she's not going to change people's opinions about her, so she might as well take Obama down. His potential is sky high, so if she can put a cap on that then she still has a shot at the nomination.

[rodeodance]

70. You have not listened to her speeches or you would not look so foolish saying that.

[Zhade]

12. No, that's not the argument. She can criticize all she wants.

What she shouldn't do is lie all the time, about things that are so easily shown with documented, undeniable evidence to be lies.

[Sensitivity]

15. Educated democrats would support a FIERCE HONEST FIGHT. The sence is that Hill use DISHONEST SMEAR

[juajen]

37. Be honest! You would only accept a "fierce honest fight", if you were the judge and jury,

We have your number.

[susankh4]

55. And... if Obama were sailing through it

Then it would be "fierce and honest."

If Obama is flustered or flummoxxed..... obviously, the other side is being unfair.

[Webster Green]

20. Yeah, she and her dumb-ass hubby should hightail it back to Arkansas..

They've done enough damage to the party and to the country.

Fucking dip-shit egomaniacs!:smoke:

[PinkTiger]

21. Actually, she REALLY came from Chicago, unlike your candidate, who

is from somewhere east of Mars.

[anonymous171]

22. WTF!?

:wow: Step away from the keyboard.

[Fovea]

27. Kansas Claims Obama as our own.

I suspect his running mate will be a Kansan.
Best Governor this state ever had, and we will give her to
America, despite the fact that we still very much need her.

[cornermouse]

51. Obama is two generations away from Kansas.

He wasn't born there, like I was.
He wasn't raised there, like I was.
The closest Obama can get to Kansas is his mother's school years, long before he was born. I hope Sebelius has better sense than to run with Obama. We need all the democratic governors we can get and running with Obama won't add anything to her career.

[Webster Green]

29. My candidate was forced out by the fascist media..

I'll vote for Hillary if I have to, but I'll be holding my nose and puking all over the polling place, which will be ugly since I'm in charge of the precinct.:puke:

[Barrymores Ghost]

47. "Somewhere east of Mars?"

WTF?

Have another Librium, dear...it'll be okay.

[JVS]

78. Except when she's actually a New Yorker, or actually a Pennsylvanian, etc.

[Honeycombe8]

25. Criticize his policies, his stance on issues. Name calling, Rovian style? She's toast. nt

[AtomicKitten]

30. Hey, we'd throw a party if it was just criticism.

She apparently learned the wrong lesson from her trials and tribulations at the hands of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, choosing to emulate their tactics in her campaign against Barack. We didn't like those tactics when the wingnuts used them against the Clintons, and we sure as hell don't like seeing the Clintons wield them against another Democrat. And if you can't see that, I would suggest you are in denial, and that is merely an observation having been there myself for too long.

[davidpdx]

33. No, Hillary should be herself and stop playing attack politics

I'm sure if she did, her numbers would go up quite a bit. Ask yourself why most people won't vote for her. Negative, negative, negative.

People are sick of it. Want to see an example of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPWQCxLzuUQ&feature=related

Of course why should you be worried? I mean Hillary is going to win the whole thing right?

[BlooInBloo]

34. She IS being herself. It's all that's left of her. Like Khan.

[juajen]

39. Careful, do you really want her numbers to go up a bit?

They are now neck and neck in the national GE Gallup poll and she's leading in PA. If what she's doing is doing so much harm to her, you should be encouraging her to keep on doing it, shouldn't you? After all, he's outspent her 3 to 1, I hear.

[davidpdx]

40. Nope, I'm just stating the obvious in response to the OP's question

that if she changed her campaign she would have a different result. The reason he can outspend her 3-1 is he's out fundraised her for three months straight (Jan/Feb/Mar). I can't remember what the December numbers were, I'm sure she raised more at that point though. Do you want to make any bets for April?

As for the Gallup poll, I think you are putting too much faith in one poll. Take a look at the Newsweek poll during the same time period, it has Obama up by 19 and uses registered voters instead of likely voters. While I don't think it's that high, I would bet he still leads her overall in poll.

If this was about polls, she would have won a long time ago when she was up by 20+ points.

[Swamp Rat]

35. Straw Man

Your 'basic argument'.

[Ken Burch]

41. She can criticize him, but it is unacceptable for her to say he's not qualified.

Given that he's more likely to be nominated her, and that she knows that, she is destroying the party by questioning his qualifications.

She should focus on saying why she's better, and she should focus mostly on attacking McCain. Is that such a hard set of ground rules to accept?

[cornermouse]

52. Like the republicans won't focus on the fact that realistically

speaking he only has two years at the most experience at the national level?

[Ken Burch]

85. The attack wouldn't have nearly as much bite as it will with HRC quotes.

What she's done is as irresponsible as what Hubert Humphrey did to McGovern when Humphrey slandered McGovern's defense policy in '72.

Humphrey knew McGovern had the nomination locked up by the time he did those ads, and clearly did them for the sole purpose of preventing a McGovern victory in the fall.

[Barrymores Ghost]

42. Gee, how about she just explain her position on the issues...

...and delineate herself from her opponent?

And maybe, in the meantime, she could talk about the Rethuglican candidate LIKE HE'S THE ENEMY FOR A FUCKIN' CHANGE!!

Wouldn't THAT be a treat?

[MrSlayer]

53. Not at all. Criticize him on the issues but don't join in with the neo-con bullshit..

The only thing that destroys the party are the ludicrous accusations and gutter politics being used against Senator Obama.

[cornermouse]

56. One person's definition of neo-con "a-hem"

is another person's definition of basic issues and has nothing to do with republicans or neo-cons

[MrSlayer]

59. Flag pin is a basic issue?

Words (Wright) and actions (Ayers) that have nothing to do with you or your personal beliefs that are somehow now attributed to you are a basic issue? Getting snagged while embellishing a story (Bosnia) is a basic issue? I think not. These things are non-issues brought to light by the 24/7 news cycle that must feed and protect the corporate masters. At the end of the day those people would prefer McCain, feel that they could work with Hillary (whether or not they can is another story) and do not want any part of an Obama Presidency. I just feel that Hillary should steer clear of the Neo-Con RW style attacks and talking points.

[cornermouse]

62. Flag pin doesn't enter into it.

Wright and Ayers do if you want a public career.

This is not unlike you feeling that you're promoting democratic beliefs and my feeling that you're pushing an "attack Hillary with anything you can think up" agenda.

[MrSlayer]

65. I don't attack her on anything except what she's doing.

And I don't see why the words and actions of others should equal his beliefs. I don't hold Senator Clinton responsible for President Bill or anyone else she's associated with's foibles as her own.

[cornermouse]

83. See what I mean?

You're attacking her because she's daring to oppose your choice, Obama.

[MrSlayer]

87. I'm not. Not at all.

I'm not attacking her for being oppossed to my choice. I'm saying that she is attacking him on things that are not issues, things that have nothing to do with solving the problems of this country. Attack his war plan, his health plan, something that has substance. Not idiotic nonsense.

[JoFerret]

61. The Obama campaign is out to destroy the Clintons

and they will destroy the democratic party in the process. They want to erase Johnson, Carter and Clinton and return to the entirely mythic glory of the Kennedy era.

And the cowards like Kerry and Kennedy who who too chicken to work hard to impeach Bush now can turn on Hillary instead. Classic bully behavior by a bunch of cowards.

And Obama - ever the prototype in search of a father - has found his mentors in these old men who seek their second glory. They plucked him from relative obscurity and promote him to the fore. They are flattered by him and they flatter in return.

This is a mini tragedy when it comes to individuals but a major tragedy for the fate of the country. A party psychodrama that we will all have the pay for by a splintered party that cannot win elections.

[bowens43]

64. Wow.

The Obama campaign is out to destroy the Clintons and they will destroy the democratic party in the process. They want to erase Johnson, Carter and Clinton and return to the entirely mythic glory of the Kennedy era.

REally? Care to provide some of evidence of this?

And the cowards like Kerry and Kennedy who who too chicken to work hard to impeach Bush

Hate to break it to you but impeachment takes place in the house not the senate. Try to learn a little about our government be for posting this kind of foolishness.

now can turn on Hillary instead. Classic bully behavior by a bunch of cowards.

You can't be this ignorant.

And Obama - ever the prototype in search of a father - has found his mentors in these old men who seek their second glory. They plucked him from relative obscurity and promote him to the fore. They are flattered by him and they flatter in return.

How did you manage to cram so much stupidity io so few words?

This is a mini tragedy when it comes to individuals but a major tragedy for the fate of the country. A party psychodrama that we will all have the pay for by a splintered party that cannot win elections.

Inane blathering is all the hillary crusaders have left.

[JoFerret]

72. I guess we disagree,

Imagine that.

(No need to break anything btw. Their EFFORT was what was required (to work for the impeachment of Bush). Their full out concerted national effort.)

[bowens43]

63. You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer , are you?

[rodeodance]

66. yeah-and Obama folk want us only to post

positive threads about Hilliary while they continue to smear Hillary with RW talking points.
I am not being sarcastic about this as this has happened.

[Perry Logan]

67. Also: all accusations against the Clintons, are to be immediately and uncritically believed.

[Perry Logan]

69. Vicious, Drudgean attacks on Hillary don't hurt the party...but questioinng Obama's experience does.

[Perry Logan]

71. Praising McCain is evil, but praising Reagan is OK.

[intaglio]

74. You mean like the argument used by Hillary "supporters

about the Obama campaign "attacks"


Now this is Rovian - accuse the oppostion of what you do


Tired, stinky, boring and repetitive - the Hillary Clinton Fans - Moaning for America.

[my3boyz]

75. Exactly since she has no shot of winning! She is just trying to dirty him up for McCain. nt

[DawgHouse]

80. Yes because what she says is what McCain will say.

And if Hillary hadn't said it first, McCain would have never thought of it!

:sarcasm:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

82. That's not how I see things.

For the most part Democratic voters appear to be reacting poorly to attack politics. It could just be because we associate them with how the Republicans have used them time and time again to smear our candidates and the damage the country, and our party has had to endure as a result of that. Other than those who were already solidly in her camp there's been no substantial amount of positive reactions from the technique. It's not given her the bump she needed and is leaving a nasty impression on quite a few voters as to what type of a politician she is due to the direction her campaign has turned. I think it's a poor decision by her campaign to continue to go negative disregarding the damage it may do to her career in the future. I think overall the party will be just fine though.

[Sparkly]

86. Maybe there's something in Obama's favor here -- many people do rush to defend him.

When Clinton was ahead early on, she pointed out that her opponents were attacking her, and doing so because she was winning.

People here acted like they'd never heard such a thing! Playing victim! Poor widdle me! The gender card! Setting feminists back by decades! Blah blah blah... I pointed out quotes from Howard Dean in 2004 saying similar things and even calling on the DNC chair to intervene and make them stop. But it was still dealt with as unprecedented.

So, Obama got ahead, and the roles reversed. Then DU -- and a lot of the media -- was abuzz with defending him, and attacking her for attacking him. I don't think it plays well for him to be attacked.

That could be a good thing in the general election for him, though.

[mmonk]

89. There is a difference between criticizing and swiftboating.

[DesEtoiles]

90. cut the shit, idiot