We hear a lot about "CHANGE" from Obama - HOW is he going to CHANGE the way WASHINGTON works?

[Cronus Protagonist]

Obama says he's going to change how Washington works. He's going to end "business as usual", He's going to open a new kind of politics. How is he going to achieve that? How is he going to get the military/prison/industrial/oil/insurance/pharmaceutical complexes and several hundred politicians to change their ways in a system that they built for themselves?

How?

I can be educated, but I'm not easily swayed with substanceless campaign rhetoric like "hope", "change" or politicians talking about themselves in the third person like "Can you see what Obama's cooking?". What, exactly, is it that Obama is cooking? I want the recipe. Give it up and make a convert.

(Please recommend this thread for maximum input from Obama supporters. I want to make sure everyone sees it and has a chance to respond substantively. Thanks!)

[Iwasthere]

1. It is quite simple

He is NOT bought. End of story (this is why the big interests are soooo scared).

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. Now that is a completely substancless response

And it's also something that you can't really be sure of. I guess I'll have to wait a bit longer to get a decent answer.

[seriousstan]

8. Such detail underwhelms me, Could you detail his plans?

[NJmaverick]

10. more than that, he is going to take his fund raising model to Washington

he will use the voice and the power of the people, as the driving force to enact badly needed change.

[Benhurst]

14. Yeah. He'll ignore all the bundled funds brought to his campaign by

Wall Street lawyers and corporate functionaries and only pay attention to the little school children who have raised pennies for his campaign. There won't be any vested interests with a direct line to the White House once Obama moves in. He'll ignore them just as he did the nuclear power special interests (Exelon) in Illinois.

:rofl:

For a little reality testing:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/22/681/

[Tellurian]

140. Maybe he means Oprah's "pennies"..

and she'll give everyone a cah..

[madmom]

189. IF big interest were indeed "so scared" they would have knocked him out like they did Edwards!

[Cronus Protagonist]

194. At this point, assuming Obama gets the nod..

I can only hope, unfounded and unsupported by facts, that Obama will be a "stealth Dennis", although I will not put my money on that. :)

[madmom]

191. deleted..dupe

[onehandle]

2. This should be fun.

:popcorn:

[Cronus Protagonist]

6. I figure, it's time to quit talking about bullshit flag pin crap and get into the nitty gritty

You might need a lot of popcorn though :P

[Saturday]

3. There is very little he can do but he's too naive to know that. nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

9. Isn't he over 30? An adult? A lawyer? He can't be that naiive.

He just can't be. There must be more to this picture that we're not seeing yet.

[NJmaverick]

16. I wonder who has more experience, intelligence and education

Obama or yadayadayada????

[papau]

5. Simple -his need for GOP LOVE means he is owned by the GOP - and they will love his 4 years

[Cronus Protagonist]

13. Haha

I'm really hoping for a substantive response from a few Obama people here, but you might be right. Time will tell. :P

[NJmaverick]

7. He will use the power of the people, to create the pressure to change

Right now, it's money that talks. Obama is looking to change that, by getting the voters to be the one's with the voice. His fund raising, which is based on a well over a million citizen donors, is the model he is going to use to transform Washington.

[Cronus Protagonist]

15. Yeah, and my question remains unanswered. HOW?

How can you change Washington's business model? How does a large donor list do that? HOW?

[NJmaverick]

22. It's similar to the model JFK used, you start to hold members of Congress

accountable to the voters. You make the voters aware of the stand their congressman made on key issues. He will start to help other democrats get away from the corperate cash cows and learn how to tap into the voters for their financial support.

He will give great speeches that will fire up the American people. He will call on them to pressure Congress to pass legislation that he feels is important. This is similar to the model that Ronald Reagan used.

There is nothing really magical about what he will do. He just has the intelligence and charisma and leadership ability needed to do it.

[Writer]

29. That is exactly what EVERY president in office does in order to get Congress to pass legislation.

How will this be different?

[NJmaverick]

37. Most lack the intelligence, charimsa and leadership ability

to pull it off.

Look at it this way. Bush's charisma an leadership ability was given an artificial enhancement, due to 9/11. He used that to get the Country to invade Iraq. Now Obama isn't going to need that artificial enhancement and will use that power for good intead of evil.

[uponit7771]

74. Sho nuff

[Cronus Protagonist]

39. That sounds like business as usual

That's been happening as long as there have been politicians.

[NJmaverick]

43. Reagan used those tools to change Washington and the Country for the worse

Obama has the same tools and can change it for the better. What's your point?

[Writer]

27. I'm sorry, but what is that supposed to mean?

"He will use the power of the people..."

How will donations to the Obama campaign "transform Washington?" This is magical thinking!

[Cronus Protagonist]

40. True, this represents hope at the least

And I want concrete plans. HOW? Come on people, HOW???

[NJmaverick]

41. What you have is known as LIMITED thinking

You don't have the ability to think outside the box. When you have a candidate with Obama's intelligence, charisma, vision and leadership you have so many tools that are not normally available. The only thing that limits what he can accomplish is one's ability to think of ways to get it done. If you are capable of thinking outside the traditional Washington model, anything is possible (with his tool set). If you are mired in the same old Washington thinking, you don't believe it's possible to change anything. In fact if that's the way you think, there really isn't any reason to vote or even be active in politics. After all nothing will change, no matter who is in power.

[Writer]

46. So let's read some of your ideas.

On edit to add: That you can get accomplished in a representative democracy.

[NJmaverick]

48. I will once you explain why we should even vote

[Writer]

52. Oh - so you were ASKING me a question.

Ah. I see.

Why I vote: I vote for people who will represent my interests in government. If I have a specific interest, I take that interest to my representative. Otherwise, it's called a direct democracy which, for all intents and purposes, would be mob rule.

Now - tell me your ideas, and how exactly you expect to get them accomplished via this nebulous "change?"

[NJmaverick]

58. Yes, shocking isn't it? You are trying to create a false no win scenerio

I am questioning your "givens" so that there is a proper frame work to answer your question. See you claim a candidate can't create change. Following that line of reasoning, there is no reason to vote, since no candidate can change the status quo.

Now either you believe that canidates do make a difference and can change things, or you don't. If you don't believe that it makes a difference, who is elected President, why would I waste my time discussing the election with you?

[Writer]

61. Because the question posed in this thread is exactly how that change will happen!

So... how will this change happen? And what exactly will change???

[NJmaverick]

63. I already explained that. Obama will use a hybrid of the Reagan and Kennedy models

Both were quite effective in changing the political landscape in Washington. If you want more details than that, I suggest you brush up on your history.

[Writer]

69. First of all, it's interesting that you hearken back to the days of Reagan and Kennedy...

which to me smells more political than genuine; but secondly, there is nothing that you described above that isn't standard protocol for every Vice President in every administration. Every administration attempts to finesse Congress in order to get it to pass its legislation. There's nothing new here, even during times of political realignment.

[NJmaverick]

80. You seem to be grasping at straws

Every year 30 NFL teams attempt to win the Super Bowl. Only the best one actually succeeds. So if I were to apply your line of reasoning to the NFL, I would say no team can win the Super Bowl, because so many try and so many fail.

Now the same can be said of Presidents. Every President tries to change Washington. Only few have the talent and ability to do so.


Did George Bush Sr change the Washington? No

Did Jimmy Carter? Yes, but not in the way he wanted to change it

Did Bush jr? Some, but he liked the way things were, he just wanted to make it a little worse

Did Reagan change Washington? Yes he did, unfortunately he made it worse


Sometimes it's not the President that changes things. One could argue Newt had a major impact. As did the repukes like Delay that set up the K-street project


You are attempting to use the repuke tactic of false framing. That's not a something I allow to happen.

[RaleighNCDUer]

62. By not buying into the power structure as it is to gain the office

upon taking office he is not beholden to that power structure. He won't owe the MIC big favors.

The kind of campaign he has been running, and that Edwards and Kucinich also ran, excludes the monied interests that demand quid pro quo.

Not only is donations from the people, the power of the people, a start - it is the ONLY way to start.

[Critters2]

152. He didn't do this in Springfield. He was completely beholden to

Emil Jones and the Chicago power structure. What makes you think he'd function differently in the White House?

[onehandle]

95. Bush got a lot of individual donations too. How'd that go?

And no, I'm not saying he'll be like Bush.

Just don't expect miracles from either candidate.

[NYCGirl]

11. If you've been watching his campaign and how it's been financed, etc.,

you can see he already has changed the way Washington works.

[Cronus Protagonist]

18. Washington is still operating the exact same way as far as I can see

Point me to something substantive to show that Obama's already changed Washington. You seem to be claiming Obama's campaign is somehow different from Deans, which was also grassroot and small donor - and it didn't change Washington either.

[NYCGirl]

20. Dean's started it, and Obama's perfected it. The grassroots are growing. NT

[hedgehog]

109. Dean lost while Obama is winning. Is that a big enough difference for you? nt

[uponit7771]

71. RIGHT!!

[Pawel K]

12. He is not part of the DLC, He was right one the Iraq war, and he doesn't take money from lobbyists

the biggest majority of his donations have been from small contributors.

He is no saint, he is by no means perfect. But if you are looking for any change you have to pick him over Clinton. Clinton is more of the same as you very well know.

[Cronus Protagonist]

24. Sure, but HOW is HE going to CHANGE WASHINGTON???

He has that all over his bunting, talks about it everywhere but so far I have no heard HOW he's going to walk into a system that was built by, for and with the oil/pharma/prison/etc corporatists. HOW is he going to effect this massive sea change within a system that would treat him like a zit at best or cancer at worst?

[uponit7771]

72. Do you understand that the money is the root of the reason DC is fucked up? Take the money out & DC

...changes overnight.

Obama has shown everyone HOW to take the money out of the lobbyist and big donor hands

[Cronus Protagonist]

87. Yeah, like Dean did way back when?

Didn't make a whit of a difference in Washington, never had any effect in any way on HOW WASHINGTON WORKS! This is exasperating.

[Pawel K]

125. If you refuse to accept my explaination because of your bias that's your problem, not mine.

As I already said, he will by no means change it as much as he should. But he will change it.

Washington was for this war. He was against it. Democrats in washington are in bed with the DLC. He isn't. And finally virtually everyone in Washington takes money from lobbyists. He doesn't. By any logical definition that's change, why you refuse to admit that is beyond me.

In addition I don't have to remind you he will be the first black man as president and he is still a washington outsider, having served in washington for only 3 years.

However you cut it the 3 reasons I mentioned above are the only real issues he is different from Hillary or any other democrat on. And that's enough for me to vote for him over Hillary because of the small, but needed, change this will bring.

[tridim]

17. I'm sure this wont satisfy you, but I trust him like I trusted Dean in 04.

At the very least he is exposing and talking about the problems with our Government. That's a giant first step. None of the other candidates can even admit there is anything wrong, mostly because they're a big part of the problem.

[Cronus Protagonist]

28. I understand, and that was an honest answer

Maybe someone closer to Obama will be able to tell us HOW he's going to achieve this epic alteration of an epoch.

[The Traveler]

19. Big goals ... long odds ... but right now the best game in town

Obama's strategy (clearly expressed countless times) is to establish a going in position of center left policies while at the same time organize and build a grass roots movement with the objectives of a) constructing an enduring progressive congressional majority and b) establishing vehicles by which popular sentiment may be more directly and speedily injected into the policy development process.

The theory is sound, the devil always dwells in the details, and the resistance will be/has been enormous. Long odds at best, methinks ... but still the best game in town today.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

21. Have you been listening ? He has been asking each of us to get

involved as well. thats how you, him, us change things, not by one person alone.

[Writer]

31. Great. That's great...

but involved doing what, exactly?

[Cronus Protagonist]

45. What, AND HOW? HOW? HOW?

I so wish someone would tell me HOW is Obama going to accomplish this feat? HOW HOW HOW???

[butterfly77]

91. I think you are trying to portray him as some dummy..

In washington he will hold meetings with people from both sides on different issues,and hold some meetings on Cspan, so that we can see what is going on (WE,WE,WE THE PEOPLE) if you can understand that. He also will work with them so that different communties can come to get as we build this country together. The problem now is that we are all seperate on stupid issues that are tearing us apart.

We want a president that will work with all sections of the country and not just some. We need a president who will work with other countries without threating them that you will bomb them everyday. You seem to want a lot of detail which I don't think that any candidate can give you because they won't know how far they can go in certain areas until they see what damages Bushco has done. This is how I see it. Yes, there are other areas that I can go into but If you want to know go to his website. He is already doing it he has some internship type program for young people all over the country.


Now on the other hand we will have a lot of problems If hillary wins in the first place she cannot win, Secondly, Bill will be all over the place causing confusion like he is doing now but only worser.Thirdly, she is not entitled and she is not the only one who can do the job which she seems to think. The point is we are tired of these same old people going up there with the same old game we need to do something different and we need (WE THE PEOPLE)to be involved and this doesn't mean some people from certain areas of the country it means ALL!

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

68. Soo you need someone to hold your hand. for starters just pick

up the phone and start calling reps and sen, tell them what you want and don't want, make the office staff work, tie up the lines, better yet lets all do this every day, old tactic but it still works. Oh get free long distance calling.

[here_is_to_hope]

107. The way you and others should have been involved all along...

Writing your reps', holding your elected officials' feet to the fire, locally, statewide and of course, nationally.
It may be too much to ask since what I am reading in this post is...
"How is HE going to change Washington..."
HE is expecting US to do our part. I think thats what has driven up the voter rolls, perhaps he has brought it to the attention of our citizens that this is a representative democracy (of sorts).
While many of us may be involved on a local level, how many of us write or call our reps' in DC?

[Lilith Velkor]

122. Plenty of us

But we don't gush and swoon over some fancy-schmancy candidate with slick corporate packaging and cutesy viral marketing, so that makes us chopped liver.

[here_is_to_hope]

126. I dont follow...

"....But we don't gush and swoon over some fancy-schmancy candidate with slick corporate packaging and cutesy viral marketing, so that makes us chopped liver...."

Well and good then. You dont care for Obama and thus, maybe nothing will change.
Abandon hope then and make plans to endure.
I have nothing for you but what I feel. Obama has motivated many younger voters and others who were soured on the 'system'. He sure has motivated me, a guy who was so far to the left I could see the right completing the circle. But he is what he is and if there is chance to create a true change in our system of government, I am on board till my dying breath.

That and 7 years of B*shco has taught many a lesson, like "gee, I better take note and get involved or we are fucking doomed"....

[mwb970]

23. You are actually saying that *nobody* can change Washington, right?

It isn't just Obama - if I am reading your post correctly, you believe that it is absolutely impossible for any president to make any changes that will have any effect on the current situation. Do I have it right? And if so, why should we bother voting or even following the elections at all, much less becoming active and involved?

Your post has the audacity of hopelessness. Me, I'm not that far gone. Yet.

[Cronus Protagonist]

30. No, you made your own point up and answered it

I'm still holding out to find out HOW Obama is going to do it? Maybe it is possible. I've been sold some HOPE for CHANGE. Now I want to know HOW it's going to play out. What's Obama's plan? How's it going to work? What's HE going to do?

[mwb970]

50. I see your point. Do you see mine?

Others here have given some examples of ways in which Obama is already "breaking the mold", although you shot all of those down one by one. I'm not enough of an expert on Washington to give you a detailed plan for exactly how change can come. But to simply state that it cannot come, ever, means that we are all doomed, does it not?

Did you ever read Games People Play by Eric Berne? Here's a summary of one "game" I found on Berne's site:

The book Games People Play analyzes a lot of covertly nasty human behavior in terms of "games": patterned social interactions where people say one thing and mean another--and others play along.

For example, in the game of "Why Don't You, Yes But", a person brings up a problem they are having, seeming to invite others to brainstorm a solution. Each proposed solution, though, meets with a reason why it won't work or can't be done. After a while, the helpers give up. The real motive of the player is to get justification for a claim like, "See? I am helpless, nothing is my fault" or "See? Everyone who tries to help me is an idiot."

The people who play along are usually also doing something covert: the game of "I'm Only Trying to Help". Here, one offers advice in the hope it will be rejected, to get justification for a claim like, "See? No one listens to me."

For some reason this thread reminds me of WDY-YB.

[Cronus Protagonist]

54. I see how you are reminded of that game, but this is not that game

IF there is a way to really effect a sea change in Washington, I want in on it. I have yet to see a way this can happen from/via/with/though/by Obama. That does NOT mean it cannot happen. For example, a revolution of the people would make such a thing happen. Violent or non-violent. Another method might be, perhaps to elect a super majority in both houses of people who are willing to change the Constitution and remve the Electoral College. That same super majority might also abolish coporate personhood. SO there you go, I've proposed a few ways this could happen.

Once again, HOW is OBAMA going to effect this sea change? It's really a simple question and so far you have not addressed it directly. HOW? If I can see three or four or five ways, all I want to know is HOW is OBAMA going to to it? HOW?

[mwb970]

55. OK, you win.

This is silly.

[blm]

25. He is an advocate for open government. Clintons are tools for Closed Government that protects

secrecy and privilege of the powerful elite. EVERY issue depends on open government whether you realize it or not.

YOU siding with closed government after all these years is unfortunate.

[Cronus Protagonist]

36. First of all I don't want to hear about the Clintons

Secondly, you say I side with closed government with no evidence of that, and in the face of plenty of evidence AGAINST that... just visit my web site. If you're not going to respond to the OP on topic, fine, but don't expect me to let you shit on me as well.

[blm]

51. Well, closed government is what DEFINES the Clintons. And you side with them against Obama

who ADVOCATES for open government and has Open Government's strongest advocates in DC aligned with him.

Don't Tread on Me ONLY survives under Open Government and will be buried along with that flag when Closed Government circles the wagons.

Whether you realize it or not.

Those siding with Clintons to protect the secrecy and privilege of the Bushes ARE SHITTING on the rest of us who have been maintaining the fight for open government.

[Cronus Protagonist]

56. Again, I do NOT support the CLINTONS and I will NOT defend them

Go make your own thread if you want to talk about them.

[blm]

103. Open government v closed government is the key point you ignore. Obama sides with open

government and you won't acknowledge that as a factor. There is no way to make the point about its importance without recognizing how disastrous closed government protected by certain Dems has been.

[Cronus Protagonist]

105. First of all, you must define "Open govermnment" and "Closed government"

And that would be another thread entirely. Start one, I'll join in there.

[Egnever]

146. It is the basis of how he creates change

and like BLM says you chose to ignore it continuously. It is what changes everything without it we are destined to more of the same.

As BLM says Obama is a strong supporter of open government and has plans to further open the doors of power to the light of day. It is the basis for all of his change. He of course will need help from our end pressuring our reps to carry out some of it however he can do a lot of it without congresses blessings.

Thats where the change begins though and your constant call for another thread on it ignores the answer to your original question.

[Cronus Protagonist]

148. Doesn't answer the OP, sorry

Open government is WHAT? What does that mean? What we had during the 8 years of peace and prosperity under the previous president? Or the one before? What? How? These slogans must be defined to have any value or meaning.

Open Government = WHAT?
Closed Government = WHAT?

And anyway, I didn't ask about open vs. closed whatever. I asked HOW is OBAMA going to EFFECT his campaign promise to "CHANGE THE WAY WASHINGTON WORKS"? HOW? Sure, we can open the light of day to regular governmental workings, although we alread have CSPAN for that.

Surely you don't think that the secret closed door national security meetings are going to be on your telly? No wait, maybe THAT'S what Obama is planning on doing. Is it? I want to know. If it is, maybe I'd get behind him.

[cali]

26. bwahaha. YOU? converted?

god you spew bullshit. Look, here's an actual answer. We don't and we can't know if he can do what he says he wants to do. Electing someone to the Presidency is invariablly a gamble. duh.

[Cronus Protagonist]

171. God if you weren't so special I'd respond in kind

[oviedodem]

32. You fail to understand the power that YOU as an American have. You want

detailed info on his plans for the economy and such visit the site, pull up some his town halls. How do you change Washington?

Here is how he wants to do it:

First eliminate special interest influence on politicians AND bring transparency. If the politicians know that their fundies and power brokers are going to be splattered all over the web, you stand a greater chance of them doing what YOU want because they want to get re-elected.

Do you have any idea how many politicians have good ideas but are bought out?

Secondly, Americans don't understand the power of their actions and words. IF politicians knew that Americans would not tolerate their stupidity they would not do the things they do. Unfortunately too many of us do tolerate and hence politicians don't care b/c we are not going to kick their asses out of office. If a couple of them see that Americans are willing to kick them out for stupidity I GUARANTEE that they start working for you.

[QC]

33. This is the funniest thread I have seen in ages! n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

38. I'm perfectly serious

I want to know how, really, I do. If I can get how it's going to happen, and it looks like it will work, I'll even kiss Obama's ass to get it.

[Straight Shooter]

81. I think it's one of the most ironic. n/t

[BlueIdaho]

34. Absurd

With all due respect this OP is absurd. All you have to do is look at his clearly stated plans and positions on his website. Just like HRC, Obama has a clearly defined agenda when he becomes president. Now, he alone will not change Washington - if you have ever heard him speak you would know he often stresses it will take ALL OF US applying pressure on the old system to make a change.

I guess the real question is - are you satisfied with the status quo - if so - vote for HRC. That's what she promises with her 35 years of veteran experience - more of the same. If you are sick and tired of politics as usual, you are going to have to take a chance and vote for Obama - then work like hell. Real change doesn't happen by simply stepping into the voting booth - real change takes citizen involvement over the long haul!

[Cronus Protagonist]

42. Once again, no substance and a false dichotomy

I so wish for substantive methods on HOW Obama is going to CHANGE washington. How? It's a simple question. I don't want to hear a word about the Clintons. I was never a Clinton fan and I'm not now.

[graycem]

67. He's doing it now...

by engaging more of the electorate, people who haven't voted in years, or maybe even ever, are and they're paying attention. I think that and giving the democrats a spine, especially when you couple that with good decisions for the country, like uhm, no preemptive war, will change many things. Especially if the voters turn out and give us a solid majority in congress. Plus, I believe he will know that he has more at stake than other presidents before. He's going to really have to live up to his campaign promises to a larger degree to be seen as a success and have any hope of reelection.

I'm as cynical as the next person, maybe more so. That's why I think he's different. I think he's genuine, and yes, that does take a leap of faith, however, I don't believe the other 2 candidates would even attempt to change anything. They've already said they're "fighters." So is Bush. I'll take the diplomat. And since none of us can see the future, all we have are our opinions.

[Cronus Protagonist]

77. I agree he's done a lot to bring in new voters and energize people

I don't think anyone with eyes can disagree with that point. I still want to know HOW he's going to effect this sea change in Washington. It's a simple question that Obama ought to be able to answer with a substantive response. I was hoping his supporters would know, but apparently that's not the case. Maybe Obama or one of his staff members will tell us HOW he's going to CHANGE business as usual in Washington.

[mckeown1128]

35. Example:

Instead of taking lobbyist or PAC funds...(and thus being under the sway of a few dozen individuals)

he fundraises from the bottem up... (thus being under the sway of at least 1.35 million americans)

[Writer]

65. So... instead of taxes we're switching to donations?

Let me back up a bit: avoiding PAC money is what campaigning politicians pledge to do from time to time. Edwards did so in 2004. This is nothing new. What we're trying to find out is how that philosophy "changes" the way American government works.

[uponit7771]

86. Because it proves Washington doesn't need it to win? hunh, do you realize how much money it takes to

...win an election these days?

[OnlyObama]

44. By actually trying to help the country and not donors. n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

47. You do know that politicans have been trying to do that for decades, right?

What's NEW here? HOW is Obama going to CHANGE WASHINGTON? Sorry for shouting, but it's frustrating.

[uponit7771]

90. Trying?! He's the only one I see succeeding!! Come on dude, you have to know the effect of campaign

...money on Washington.

Change the source of the money and the rest follows.

There are few self funded politicians.

[Cronus Protagonist]

92. Dude, I wish I could see how raising campaign cash translates into CHANGE

But all politicians have to raise campaign cash, and who it comes from is not the source of the problems in Washington. I would rank the biggest problems in Washington as follows:

1/ The idea of corporate personhood (needs to be abolished completely)
2/ Corporate donations to politicians (needs to be abolished completely)
3/ Corporate controlled and state influenced media monopolies
4/ The electoral college
5/ Electronic voting machines and corrupt vote counting systems
6/ The two party system

What, if anything, is Obama going to do about these? I'll be a supporter in a heartbeat if he'll address any ONE of them and any ONE of them would effect a sea change in Washington. There could be more that could be done, and if so, I want to hear what Obama's going to do to effect this sea change. HOW is he going to achieve this CHANGE of which he wishes to accomplish?

[Writer]

96. Ref: My response #94.

[Cronus Protagonist]

99. Yup, if I saw Barack Obama demonstrating, standing for something

Perhaps if he had stood with Cindy Sheehan a few years back, I would believe he really opposed the war. Or if he had voted substanatively, unequivocally, on something important. Or perhaps if he even today stood up and said he was going to end corporate personhood, He would win me over in a hearbeat.

But I've seen empty campaign rhetoric somany times before, and I see nothing new here, which is why I want to know what it is and how it is that Obama is going to achieve this change of which he speaks. I'm not a partisan, I'm a pragmatist.

[Writer]

102. Are you, by chance, somewhere between the ages of 28 and 45? n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

104. No, why?

[Writer]

117. I do a lot of research into generational attitudes as connected to history.

I noticed you said you were a pragmatist, so I wondered if you were in that relative age range.

May I ask how old you are?

[Cronus Protagonist]

121. haha, sure, 49, not that it makes any difference

Coming from a different culture than you. (I'm Scottish) I wouldn't want to skew your research.

[Avalux]

49. He can't do it alone; we need to do it with his leadership.

That's it in a nutshell. Transparent government; engage the American people to become active and kick out their elected officials who aren't doing their jobs. An educated electorate is a formidable force.

[BzaDem]

53. I'm really amazed that no one has actually substantively responded.

Changing government, educating electorate, get rid of special interest influence, blah blah blah. The OP is asking HOW, for specifics as to how that will occur, and no one can answer. Hell, I could probably do a better job laying out the specifics Obama claims to support.

This really shows that this election on DU is about two things: raw emotion, and more importantly, blind Clinton hatred.

[Cronus Protagonist]

57. Based on this thread alone, you have plenty of material to support your assertion

I'm still waiting for a substantive response.

[Writer]

73. Let me level with you: You're not going to get any.

You're not going to get any, because even if someone comes close to providing an answer, it sounds incredibly naive. The only way to "change" a government is by a complete overthrow of the constitution. Maybe we need a blue ribbon panel or something to review the way government conducts business, but without structural changes there is no way we are going to see real, profound change.

[uponit7771]

83. The foundation of the Washington structure is money. If the politicians can get more money from...

...the people than the influential then they will and the people become the influential.

Obama has raised more money than people could think of and he did it without lobbyist or PACs

[Writer]

94. There. Now we have it.

If there isn't a one reason for why liberalism has failed since the days of Reagan, it's this naive equation of power with money. We believe that ONLY money buys influence, and to a certain extent it can, but beyond that, the only real means a population can enact change is with a picket sign and a voice.

Martin Luther King, Jr. didn't need MONEY to change the nation, did he?

If you read back through every empire in history, the suppression of the lowest classes has, time after time, led to rebellion and revolution. Money does not always equate to power. Numbers and the willingness to voice your anger does.

Barack Obama running within the system in order to gain an office within the confines of the system does not equate to change. On the contrary, if Barack Obama and citizens started to march through the streets of Detroit, where so many auto workers have lost their jobs, that is a way to pressure the government for more protectionist labor policies. If he were to gather people together outside of hospitals in order to make sure that the uninsured get the medical care they need, then that's a means for change. Not this naive BS of large crowds and pretty speeches. That is called marketing, and they know what we crave now: change. They don't need to define it; they don't need to explain it. They only need to repeat that word over and over again so that you vote for him.

We need to divorce ourselves from the language of capitalism (money) and re-adopt the language of democracy (protest; speaking out) if you truly want to see this "change" that you keep speaking of.

Tontos!

[Cronus Protagonist]

85. I posted methods in this thread but no one has been able to tell how Obama's going to do it

One method would be to ensure a Democratic super-majority in both houses and maybe Obama would then be able to abolish corporate personhood, for example. If Obama were to say that's HOW he's going to effect this change in Washington, I'll get out right now and ring doorbells for him. Another thing might be to start a Constitutional amendment, for real this time, to abolish the electoral college. And again, if that's HOW Obama's going to effect this sea change, I'll kiss his ass and pound on doors for the rest of the year.

So far, though, I hear nothing but crickets and songs of hope, which might play well with some people, but I want answers, dammit :P

[uponit7771]

88. That would assume the DNC isn't part of the problem. To me money is the oil of DC and if you change

...the source of the money the rest will follow quickly.

To prove to people you don't need the lobbyist, PACs bundlers etc speaks VOLUMES in and of itself.

I don't see him shying away from his own party when it comes to change and a good portion of it needs to start with the DNC.

[uponit7771]

78. We already have, he doesn't owe anyone he can raise money from the people and doesnt need the ...

...influence of big donors etc.

[graycem]

82. Those ARE the specifics...

How in the world do you think politicians get away with things? I'll tell you how. Not enough of us pay attention. Open government and involving the people to hold government accountable, is exactly the change he's talking about making. He's even getting a jump start now that people are being directly affected. People are paying attention now that the economy is failing, and what's happening? They are "throwing the bums" out for starters. This has nothing to do with Clinton. She could accomplish change too. They differ on how the change comes about. She's the fighter, he's the diplomat.

[uponit7771]

84. Also if politicians can get money from the people vs. the lobbyist etc that too me makes them more

...beholding to the people.

Obama has already shown Washington they don't need the lobbyist, PACs, consultant class etc to raise stupid amounts of cash

[stillcool]

128. I'm sure that you've heard him..

state...for example..negotiations between drug companies, the insurance industry, and law makers will be open to the public via C-Span. I believe it is about opening up the law making process and using the organization of the grass roots, to involve more people. I don't think anyone believes that one person getting elected President will bring about the change he or we want. It's about 300 million people getting access to their government. If people do not care to be involved, I guess nothing will change. Might as well vote for Hillary.

[NashVegas]

59. He's Gonna Change the Tone!

Yep.

[SeaLyons]

60. Obama is not going to change anything in Washington....

he is too much of a wimp to bring about change in Washington. Hillary will clean that place out. She is tough, and that's what it's going to take.

[uponit7771]

75. By acting like them? Yeah right, we've already seen the "change" Hillary is trying to bring

[Cronus Protagonist]

89. This thead is not about Hillary

Please, I beg you, let the Obama people tell their story.

[Armstead]

64. An honest attempt at an answer

I frankly don;t think Obama is going to totally change the Way Washington works. But I do believe he can do a lot to improve it.

1)I know you don't want to hear Clinton bashing. But Obama is absolutely correct when he says we don't need leaders who have been weaned on the current system. Frankly, if the Democrats had fought harder and been more aggressive advocates for the interests of the majority over the last 30 years, the system would not be so rotten today.

However, Democrats stopped actively challenging right-wing corporate messages and policies and -- all too often -- bought into them. And became dependent on the same oligarchs who have been running this country into the ditch.

The public has been fed so much shit from the right wing and corporate massahs, and have become terminally cynical as a result.
The Clintons epitomize that problem. No matter how well-meaning thety may have been initially, they caved in, they stood up for the interests of the oligarchs more than the majority (free trade being a prime example) and echoed more of the GOP conservative approach than anything resembling true liberal/progressivism.

If Hillary is elected, she sees her major goal as working that syatem and hopefully making it a little fairer. But she will still have all of the baggage and residue and loyalties that she and her husband have had all these years.

The first step to changing that is to make people feel hopeful again. I believe that if Obama plays his cards right, he can accomplish that. Look at how he has reinvigorated the election this year.


2)Obama would be more beholden to the grass roots. No, he is not pristine, but he would know damn well who opposed him and who supported him. And if he does AT LEAST reduce the ratio of support he has from corporate lobbyists and otehr special interests, then he will also know where his bread is buttered.

Also, I believe Obama "gets it" in a way that is not conveyed in the MSM and otehr filters. I believe he knows the problems people face, the frustrations liberals have with the Weenie Democrats AND the reasons that too many independents and Republicans distrust Democrats and liberalism.

(Despite his verbal "gaffe" in San Francisco, his statement there was right on target.)

As a result, Obama IMO will actually advocate for issues that we all really care about. And I believe he has the potential ability to rally public opinion to overcome the inbuilt resistence and actually get things done.

3)I believe he has much more leadership ability than Clinton. She has basically botched almost everything she has touched that matters. She managed to take a popular issue in the 90's, health care reform, and allow it to be killed off because of her inability to lead the political process. She has taken her presidential campaign from the status of "inevitability" to the dismal state it is now. Even is she still manages to squeak out the nomination, it will still be a model of how NOT to run a campaign.


Obama has put together and overseen a campaign that has overcome great odds, was able to build an immense amount of public support and has been consistent, tough and focused. (Some gaffes yes. But that is inevitable in any campaign.)

If he applies the same skills as president, I believe he will -- if not change the system entirely -- at least break up the logjam and shake it enough to start moving in a much better direction.

[ItNerd4life]

116. My additions to your thoughts

I agree with what you said. I also would point out that Obama voted against IRAQ. That requires thinking outside the normal Washington b.s. Thinking outside the box, always brings new ideas which are what is needed to bring change.

Also, he doesn't have to change Washington. If he changes the rules and boundaries just a little bit, Washington will slowly change on it's own but it will take many years.

[butterfly77]

66. For one thing he will get the whole country working together...

He will not be the president for some people he will a president for all people...

[uponit7771]

70. By raising money from the little person instead of big donors therebye not oweing anyone.

[Bonobo]

76. He has already begun to do so.

[uponit7771]

79. Yeap, he doesn't need the influence of the rich, lobbyist, DC consultant class etc because he can...

...raise tons of money without them

[knixphan]

93. WE are helping fund his campaign...

average, middle-class citizens...

in other words, the MAJORITY of this country...

The more we give, the less he has to rely on the wealthy few.

That's just ONE example of

CHANGE I CAN BELIEVE IN.

[Jennicut]

97. Its simple. Hillary believes in working within the current system, Obama envisions a better one.

That does not mean "change" will happen. It does mean that he will at least try. I see no "try" in Hillary.

[Cronus Protagonist]

100. This thread is not about Hillary

And you did not address the OP.

[zulchzulu]

98. Let's start right from the top

For one, it wouldn't be Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton.

Secondly, the same old games that the Repigs would bring back to the Clintons would just be a reprise of the same crap in the 1990's. (Of course, if Clinton was the nominee, McCain would win anyway).

Third, we would have a new leader that would make the rest of the World relieved that it wasn't Point 1 as well as would show we are willing to turn the page.

Fourth, no more NAFTA or China free trade bills... no more bullshit "Defense of Marriage Act" nonsense... no more "Telecommunications Act" free-for-all antics... many people realize that the Clintons basically did what Newt wanted after they got a chance to pee on the tree too. I trust Obama to get rid of the crap that Bush put in that Hillary Clinton voted for.

Fifth, getting affordable universal healthcare without penalizing with mandates (which would never get passed anyway) would be great first steps.

For very specific answers to issues you may be concerned, go to www.barackobama.com

[Kablooie]

101. Actually it depends on how the new Congress breaks down.

If Democrats become the dominant force, he will have the support to lead a new revolution.

If the Goddamn Old Peckerheads remain a potent stick in the mud, it will be difficult for him to implement much real change.

[damonm]

106. OK, I'll take a swing - he's already started...

...with the Coburn-Obama Transparency act, which makes the gov't accountable for every dime it spends by exposing it to the light of day. This should give an indication of how he'll govern. The simple act of making gov't more open & transparent will by itself be a sea change from the ultra-secretive Bush Administration.
Moreover, Obama can use his tremendous charisma & oratorical skills to take his agenda over the heads of the special interests (who you KNOW are gonna fight him tooth & nail), and go directly to the people (who he's gonna need - BADLY - to be on board, otherwise this all falls down), as Reagan did to sell his disastrous agenda over the heads of a Democratic Congress. That's what it's going to take to undo the damage of the last three decades. Can Obama do it all at once? No. Can he begin this terribly necessary undertaking? Yes. Is he the ONLY remaining candidate capable of doing this? Yes. McInsane & Clinton are too heavily invested in (and invested in by) the status quo to begin to move us back to "government of the people, by the people, for the people".

We've become so inured to the decay that is Washington, some of us don't know what to make of the breath of fresh air that Obama's bringing.

[knixphan]

110. perfect.

well-said.

[uponit7771]

123. I too believe if you expose the money you change peoples actions from ground up

[mopinko]

108. the same way that harold washington brought change to a racially

segregated, majority white chicago. changes that still stand 20 years after his death.
barack cut his teeth in harold's time. and he learned well.
read up on that and get back to me.

[nichomachus]

111. He probably can't change it entirely

But a new attitude and a new approach can shake things up a little. And, until we get corporate money out of politics, that's about the best we can hope for.

One concern I have with Hillary is that she's so entrenched in the way things work, and so plugged into the corporate lobbyists, now that we won't even get a little bit of a shakeup and, in fact, may just slide in the other direction.

It's like the difference between the Dems and the GOP. At the end of the day, they all work for the corporations, but the GOP is just too eager to do it. The Dems at least fight back a little.

[Eurobabe]

112. C'ya!

[Cronus Protagonist]

124. Thanks for the kick :)

[VenusRising]

113. The Obama Organizing Fellowship is one way.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/fellowsapp?source=www_feature

This summer we are looking for students and recent graduates who want to be a part of a new generation of leadership that believes, like Senator Obama, that real change comes from the ground up.

Fellows will be trained on the basics of organizing & campaign fundamentals and then placed in a community to carry out grassroots activities. Fellows will be asked to commit to a minimum of 30 hours per week and will:

* participate in training on field organizing, messaging, and other activities
* organize in a community, working in conjunction with grassroots leaders and campaign staff
* continue to build the movement

[Hestia]

114. Since non of us (that I know of) have ever actually sat in the Oval Office

and signed off on law, with which pen, in what suit - we don't know the exact how, just that he will and can. If that is a leap of faith, so be it, but it's one I am very comfortable jumping towards.

(You sound like a little kid - why mommy, why? Why not, daddy, why not? Mine. Mine. Mine.)

One way he is already changing things is Not Talking Down To Us and Treating Us As If We Are Stupid, as the MSM and the other challengers have been doing.

They think we have to be told that "oh that is a gaffe, boys and girls, see, let us parse it for you..." Guess what, we all have our big girl and boy undies on and we are smart enough to see if there is an 'is' there.

I'm tired of the just give me your money, go home and turn on Survivor and let me take care of everything. Uh, nope, that's not working any longer. I do like in BO speeches that he has told everyone over and over, YOU have to be involved, YOU have to work at this, too. It's time for all of US to grow up, work, and fix problems rather than throwing money at them. It's a together thing, and it is the first step how.

[SoCalDem]

115. Ever hear of the bully-pulpit?

A president can (and does) control the message. They also control a veto-pen.

When a president is elected to DO something, the fact that he is elected , pretty much says that the people are at least a little bit interested in his ideas.

He puts forth the plans he has, and lets congress know in no uncertain terms, that he has an agenda that has a mandate from the people, and he pushes for stricter regulation of lobbying and banking and a lot of other things..

With a decent majority in congress, who get behind him, things can get done..

remember 1964? 1995? MOST of the Bush regime?

Republicans have done it..so can we...only for good this time around.

as for specifics..that has to wait until he's actually in the White House.. There are many ugly things still covered up, that won't be known until he is in office.

Doctors (except for Frist) do not diagnose you , until they actually examine you.. same for government..

Campaigns are about ideas.. the actual nuts & bolts stuff happens once you are IN office and have audited the mess left behind.

[Cronus Protagonist]

136. Well, we know the agenda is CHANGE

Well, we do know WHO - that's Obama. What we don't know is HOW? WHAT? WHEN? WHERE? WHY? And you didn't answer any of these. And controlling the message from the bully pulpit, holding a veto over Congress and all that is the EXACT SAME THING BUSH IS DOING. How's THAT change?

Sometimes I wonder why our press corps don't ask these very questions. I believe these are presented on the first day of any school of jornalism.

pffffft...

[SoCalDem]

149. I DID answer..

UNTIL A PERSON ACTUALLY GETS THERE AND SEES WHAT IS LEFTOVER TO REPAIR, IT'S BEST TO NOT MAKE WILD PROMISES THAT CANNOT BE KEPT..

IT'S BETTER TO LAY OUT A THEME..A WISH-LIST OF SORTS, AND TAKE IT FROM THERE AFTER YOU KNOW WHAT'S BEHIND THE CURTAIN..

When you take your car in to be repaired, don't you want the mechanic to lift the hood and look around, before he says "that'll be $1500.00.."

[Cronus Protagonist]

151. If my mechanic says my car is broken and he's going to change it for the better

He damn well BETTER have a diagnosis, a plan, a projected cost estimate AND the means to effect that change. Why can't you see that?

Anyway, you're satisfied with hope and a prayer. That's OK. I want to know HOW? It's a simple question.

[Laurab]

118. I can't recommend this thread because

after reading through it, it is quite apparent that you don't really want an answer.

No one can know exactly how Obama will change Washington, we can only know what he's planning to try. What he can accomplish will depend on a lot of things. A Dem majority would help. Working with the opposite party would help. Involving the people would help.

As for transparency, he wants no more secret meetings - he wants open government with hearings televised on CSPAN. He doesn't want legislation written by lobbyists and CEO's. He is not a Washington "insider" who is completely beholden to corporate interests, and perhaps, since he's shown an ability to work across party lines, we may have a government by the people, for the people, in the near future. A President who addresses the nation on a regular basis would be a really nice change.

For more information, if you REALLY want an answer, I suggest you go to Barackobama.com, and read for a while. I suspect you won't.

[GoldieAZ49]

119. He's gonna HOPE

all those ppl that have been there before he was and will be after he is gone will change cuz he hopes they will

:rofl:

[cottonseed]

120. He'll stop the Clinton family hand-off for one.

Since the candidates are pretty identical on policy (besides Hillary's failed Health Care plan and her wanting to Nuke Iran), I think a lot of people are voting to correct this Bush, Clinton, Bush, * problem.

[Cronus Protagonist]

132. Well, that's a puny reason for voting for Obama

Whatever floats your boat, but once again, Obama promises to "change the way Washington works" - I want to know HOW. Surely that's not too much to ask?

[timtom]

127. Lot of fussing on this thread.

I suggest that he dismantle the Department of Homeland Security, for openers.

Bring our troops the hell back from the middle east, pronto.

Declare all "executive orders" from 2001 on to be null and void.

Gotta go put a roast in the oven.

[Cronus Protagonist]

130. Now, if He promised THESE, on the record, I'd be behind him in a heartbeat

And so would millions of other like-minded individuals. I would also hold his feet to the fire once in office, as I intend to do to whoeever wins the general.

[timtom]

138. As a Kucinich supporter

I then decided to back Edwards until HE dropped out.

I support Obama, but cautiously...very cautiously. MAYBE he can deliver change and substantial hope.

Maybe.

Hillary's IWR vote record put her out of the running for me.

[Cronus Protagonist]

144. Me too

I want Dennis, would canvas and work for free for him. Same for Edwards. I'm not a fan of either of the current candidates now, but I can be persuaded to Go Obama if I know for what I would be voting. Hence my question. HOW is he going to accomplish all that he is promising? HOW? It's a simple question.

[timtom]

153. Let me say this about JFK

I would've voted for him (I was just 18 in the 1960 election -- ya had to be 21 then).

I supported him because he brought a freshness to America that had been absent since FDR. He was young, an intellectual, and white people and colored people were going to hold hands and overcome. There was a joyousness in the land. The arts became more accessible, folk music replaced rock and roll for many of us, he started the Peace Corps....

There is a chance that Barack might be inclined to pull something like that off.

It's a matter of crossing one's fingers, closing one's eyes, and clicking one's heels together 3 times.

[Cronus Protagonist]

154. I hear ya, but I'm not a fan of faith-based voting

Although, to some extent it always is, I do want to have something concrete to hold my candidates' feet to the fire once in office.

[Critters2]

157. Have you considered running? Cuz I'd vote for you!! nt

[earth mom]

129. Obama will do NOTHING to change the status quo.

Obama's platform has been nothing but total hype and that is proven by the fact that Obama supporters on this thread can't even answer your question!

They think popularity and campaign contributions are enough to make Obama a worthwhile candidate.

What a flippin joke! :freak:


This thread proves that most Obama cultists haven't spent much time looking under the surface or examining just exactly who or what they are voting for!

Dare I say they are uneducated?!



The only candidates who would have made the changes needed are Gore and Edwards and yes I know they aren't in the race.

Gore wants income tax to be replaced with a carbon tax.

Edwards wants lobbyists out of D.C. and big business out of the government.

Both ideas are Brilliant and are exactly what are needed!



I haven't heard any such brilliance from Obama-no matter what Oprah says.

NO-Obama has quite deftly skirted the issues with the hype he calls hope.

Obama's campaign sounds much like going to church where the preacher says "Pray for a miracle that things will change". :eyes:

[jackson_dem]

131. No one knows. How can it be "change we can believe in" when you don't know what "change" it is?

:wtf:

[Cronus Protagonist]

137. I'm really sorry to have to ask the question

But someone has to do it. And there are answers that would put me firmly into the Obama camp, but I'm not hearing them from ANYONE, never mind Obama.

[MethuenProgressive]

133. It's not surprising that DU's BO followers have been unable to answer the OP's question.

I'll k&r this, maybe some DUbama will at least try responding coherently.

[Cronus Protagonist]

139. I have HOPE that this will CHANGE

haha, sorry, I'm getting punch drunk and using Obama's campaign slogans on a thread about Obama's campaign... I'll come back once I've had a rest and see if anyone can answer this simple, pertinent question. Maybe there's someone out there who knows... perhaps Barack himself will post here :P

[MethuenProgressive]

143. "Vote for me and Hope I'll Change!"

That and little bottles of Obama's tears.

[Guava Jelly]

134. how is she?

:shrug:

[ProSense]

135. Good question. This is just another Obama is just as bad as Hillary OP. n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

142. This thread is not about Hillary

I want to be persuaded to sign onto the Obama wagon. I can be persuaded if I know WHAT he is going to do to "change the way Washington works". It's as simple as that. If you want to talk about Hillary being the same as Obama, please start your own thread. Thanks.

[ProSense]

155. That's why candidates have campaign sites:

PDF

You say the thread isn't about Hillary, but it has to be about someone/thing other than Obama. Either you need to be convinced to support Obama or A) you plan not to support him or anyone else B) you plan to support someone else (who would that person be?) if you aren't convinced he is for change

[Cronus Protagonist]

159. Why does it have to be about someone other than Obama?

I don't see any logic in that. This thread is clearly about Obama. Why can't you see that?

[Cronus Protagonist]

141. Once more, this thread is about OBAMA

Respectfully, if you want to talk about Hillary, please do so in another thread. Thanks.

[Guava Jelly]

158. Soon this will all be over and she can go back to the senate

And then Obama can take down Mccain :woohoo:

[Cronus Protagonist]

160. Once more, please refrain from posting about Hillary, this thread is about Obama

I'm one of the undecided white male voters and I want to know HOW is Obama going to "change the way Washington works". That's a big promise that I'd like to stand behind. It's not too much to ask how he's going to do it, is it?

[Guava Jelly]

162. little by little

And if I remember correctly you aren't undecided.

[Cronus Protagonist]

165. Your "memory" is faulty

I've defended both candidates against bullshit and will continue to do so. I've also praised both candidates where warranted. Perform a search and quit making shit up.

[beachmom]

145. Well, he won't have the Big Money Monkey on his back due to his 1 million donors.

Obama has Big Donors but it is DILUTED by small donors. It means that he does not have to cater to them. He has also said that he wants more open government like making public hearings on how to fix the healthcare system. He said he will go to the grassroots for support during a contentious battle.

Basically, the change doesn't come from him. It comes from US.

[2rth2pwr]

147. He said he would run a new kind of campaign, look how that worked out.

This primary season has united the party like no other time in history.

[Cronus Protagonist]

150. Maybe if he told us HOW he's going to effect this CHANGE it would be uniting

I'm still hoping for an answer.

[Milo_Bloom]

156. He's actually made it quite clear.

First important part is that he is not bought and paid for... thus, he owes no favors to anyone.

Second, as he has said over and over and over again, it is going to require WORK on behalf of the people who got him where he is.

The formula is actually quite simple.. the current system fails because EVERYONE (not every individual, but enough of them) is on the take. When the oil companies want something, they make some calls and enough candidates become scared their money will dry up, so they give in.

However, with Obama and his fundraising ability and the support of MILLIONS of Americans, the power of the purse held by lobbyists and special interests becomes less. So, say, for example, the oil companies want a particular favor. Let's say they can even get it through congress b/c of favors owed. It gets to Obama who can veto it and then appeal to the people to contact their represenative and demand what is right.

If the millions of Americans currently financing Obama's election continue to take action when requested... make the calls, write the letters, the representatives will be FORCED to pay less attention to the lobbyists and more attention to the people, ESPECIALLY if those people are the future financing for their elections.


Hope and Change aren't just words, they have meaning and he has made it clear in speech after speech that Hope is about taking action and Change doesn't come without action.

Right now it is impossible to get headway b/c the game is completely stacked against us... the president and the congress are on the payroll... if you take one out of that equation (The president) the people have a chance to change the game, because that president won't be a rubber stamp to the lobbyists demands and if he has the power of the people behind him, he can get congress to listen as well.

Get it?

[Cronus Protagonist]

163. Look, the people have the power of the voting booth

That's where the real power lies, and every politician knows that. Yes, you need money to run a campaign, but once in office, you can thumb your nose at the electorate until the next election. Who gives you money is irrelevant, including corporations AND small donors alike.

And lobbyists can ALWAYS outspend small donors. THEY have the cash. Almost all of it. Everyone in the country could give till it hurts, and they'd still be outspent by lobbyists, and outright ignored, as usual.

Every politician promises a whole host of goodies in every election. Few deliver. I hear WHAT Obama is promising. I'd like to know more, and I want to know HOW he's going to achieve that.

All this palaver about small donations and millions of "points of light" (as one famous president once used in his campaigns) or "individual donors" as we call them today is substanceless and meaningless when politicans do not have to show HOW they're going to do WHAT they're saying they're going to do and BY WHEN.

And I'd like to think that Obama is not beholden to "special interests" or corporations in general, but I'm not that naiive.

So once more, we're left with the unanswered question, HOW is OBAMA going to "change the way Washington works". HOW? By only accepting small donations in a Democratic primary? I don't see how that works. And if it's not Obama who's doing it, but the people who have to do it, what use is it to vote for a president at all? Is he saying he will have no power to effect this CHANGE himself once he has the bully pulpit and a Democratic majority? Of course he'll have the power. The big questions are WHAT will he DO as president, by WHEN and HOW will he change the way Washington works?

Typically, once the election is over, you can hear crickets on political web sites, every one forgets about everything political and nothing gets done. What's new here?

[Milo_Bloom]

170. But they don't use it and THAT is the problem.

First, there are a couple of false statements in your post.

"And lobbyists can ALWAYS outspend small donors. THEY have the cash. Almost all of it. Everyone in the country could give till it hurts, and they'd still be outspent by lobbyists, and outright ignored, as usual."

If that was true, Clinton would be outraising Obama, but she is not.

"Every politician promises a whole host of goodies in every election. Few deliver. I hear WHAT Obama is promising. I'd like to know more, and I want to know HOW he's going to achieve that. "

He has stated over and over and over again that HE ALONE cannot deliver. People are going to HAVE TO stay involved. To suggest that he hasn't said this is completely false.


"call them today is substanceless and meaningless when politicans do not have to show HOW they're going to do WHAT they're saying they're going to do and BY WHEN."

Again, he has said in speech after speech after speech exactly HOW. It is going to take CITIZEN INVOLVEMENT. He can't do it alone. No one can!


"So once more, we're left with the unanswered question, HOW is OBAMA going to "change the way Washington works". HOW? By only accepting small donations in a Democratic primary? I don't see how that works. And if it's not Obama who's doing it, but the people who have to do it, what use is it to vote for a president at all? Is he saying he will have no power to effect this CHANGE himself once he has the bully pulpit and a Democratic majority? Of course he'll have the power. The big questions are WHAT will he DO as president, by WHEN and HOW will he change the way Washington works?"

I answered this question, but you decided to completely ignore the answers. He has said he can't do it alone. He needs people to STAY INVOLVED. That is the only way and it is one he has explained.

[Cronus Protagonist]

173. There are no false statements in my post at all

1/ Lobbyists don't only spend money on campaigns, they spend it during session, lavish it all over Washington ALl the time, and they also get the lion's share of the pie. And they DO have most money in Washington. Ask anyone who's on the take. Clinton outraising Obama or not is not the issue. I didn't ask a question about primary voting. I asked about WASHINGTON, and that runs on money all year round, in between elections... you know that. Money is the lifeblood of politics, not just during primary season. And the people can't outspend lobbyists from the major corporations all the time. It's just not possible.

2/ Obama is not running for president so WE can do the work. If he is, good luck to him, but maybe he could tell us HOW he's going to effect this CHANGE he's going to make, and WHAT this CHANGE will look like. Sure, we all need to stay involved, and we won't, but we need to. And I didn't ask what WE are doing to effect this CHANGE that OBAMA is selling in his campaign. I want to know what OBAMA is going to do. Will he recind corporate personhood? Will he spearhead a move to abolish the electoral college? And there are so many other examples of things he could do without any help from "the people". Again, what is HE going to DO and HOW is HE going to accomplish it? It's a simple question no one has answered.

3/ Once more, you say "he can't do it alone", sure. Fine. Now that we've all understood that, what is HE going to DO? WHAT? HOW? WHEN? I know what WE have to do. What is HE going to do?

God, this is like getting blood from a stone. I've listed several things that, if Obama is willing to do them, I'm 100% behind him. Perhaps there's other things that he's planning on doing that would have the same effect on me. Telling me "we just have to trust him" or "he's going to do something but we can't say what, besides 'we' have to do 'it' ourselves" ... huh? Is THAT leadership? How is THAT going to accomplish anything at all?

My question stands unanswered.

Frankly, I'm bummed. So now it's clear I have no dog in this hunt. I was hoping to find something substantive in this thread, but alas, nothing. nada. zilch, and that's a bummer for me and for the country.

[Milo_Bloom]

202. And then you won't admit the false statement.

"Lobbyists don't only spend money on campaigns, they spend it during session, lavish it all over Washington ALl the time, and they also get the lion's share of the pie. And they DO have most money in Washington. Ask anyone who's on the take. Clinton outraising Obama or not is not the issue. I didn't ask a question about primary voting. I asked about WASHINGTON, and that runs on money all year round, in between elections... you know that. Money is the lifeblood of politics, not just during primary season. And the people can't outspend lobbyists from the major corporations all the time. It's just not possible."

Already answered this issue. It is all about raising money for elections. So, your statement remains FALSE.


"2/ Obama is not running for president so WE can do the work. If he is, good luck to him, but maybe he could tell us HOW he's going to effect this CHANGE he's going to make, and WHAT this CHANGE will look like. "

Actually that is EXACTLY what he is doing. He has made this clear on many occassions. He cannot do it alone. The examples you mention are idiotic, simply because he can't do it alone. The president does not have any actual POWER, he/she needs congress and the only way to get to congress is with popular support and popular action.

Corporate personhood isn't a problem in and of itself... the electoral college isn't a problem at all and changing these things would accomplish none of the goals. What it takes is PEOPLE demanding change first by voting for a candidate who isn't on the take and THEN taking steps to help. Without those two components, it will remain business as usual. The difference between Obama and the others is that he is being honest about it and not trying to claim he can do it all on his own.

Your question has been completely answered and you know it. Why you refuse to admit it... one can only wonder.

[Cronus Protagonist]

209. "The president does not have any actual POWER"

You know, when I read stuff like this, I often wonder if people think before they type.

You make ludicrous inferences and come to magical conclusions, even to the point of claming to know what other people think. Your posts and your interpretative skills are clearly equally well developed.

Good luck to you.

*plonk*

[Milo_Bloom]

210. I love when the run in fear from facts.

No, the president doesn't have actual power... the president operates in a system of checks and balances. The current problems arrise from the fact that two branches of governemnt are taking orders from the same special interests.

Taking one of them alone out of the equation doesn't SOLVE the problem... you need to take one out of the equation AND apply pressure to the other.

THAT is what Obama has said over and over and over and over to anyone who has been listening.

It would have been nice if you were ACTUALLY interested in an answer to your question, but obviously you weren't since you would rather spread false statements and cover your ears when the answer is right in front of you.

[Doctor_J]

161. He will start by sending alot of the Bush admin to prison

that will get peoples' attention.

[Cronus Protagonist]

164. Great! Where has he said that?

That's a great start! I'm looking for a quotation where he says that right now. You don't happen to have a link, do you?

[Lou Queb]

166. Ask yourself the same question. How can you sir make things change ?

I cannot give you a straight answer. Im sure you can seek for specific detailed answers over the net.

[Cronus Protagonist]

167. I figure we'd get better results working the system than trying to change it

Reforms come slowly, if at all. Change is nebulous at best. And if one doesn't know and can't say what that change is going to be and how it's going to be accomplished, it's just empty rhetoric. Tossing the responsibility back on the people who have no power other than to vote for our reps is not going to cut it.

Still, I believe change is possible, even large changes, as I've noted in several of my posts in this thread. There are some things that Obama can and perhaps ought to do (as should the other candidates) that would alter the fabric of politics in this country overnight.

I'm still waiting for someone to step up to the plate with concrete promises.

[Lou Queb]

168. What you are saying here sir ought to make me ponder.

So if you don't find any satisfactory answers to your questionning, what will it be ?

[Cronus Protagonist]

175. Ya know, that's a good question

Nothing I can do about it. My state has spoken. However, if I'm going to be energized, I'd like to know what I'm working for and so far neither of the two front runners inspire anything more than an "eh" from me. I guess that means I'll take a back seat during the election and come out slugging when the resultant candidate starts acting like a Republican, AFTER the general election.

[BlooInBloo]

169. None so blind as those who refuse to see.

[Cronus Protagonist]

176. I was blind but now I see

Is this a biblical quote thread now?

[depakid]

172. Not going to happen

Republicans and DINO's will block any major reforms.

Best he'd be able to do is clean house at the federal agencies, which would at least be an improvement over the cronyism of the past 8 years (and the irresponsible deregulatory policies of the Clinton era).

[Cronus Protagonist]

179. Hey, cleaning house at the regulatory agencies would be good

That would be a great start. It wouldn't cause a change in Washington's ways, but it would be a step in the right direction.

[RBInMaine]

174. OK, yeah, just don't even try. Go with STATUS-QUO-HILLARY. Boy, that's somethign to vote for.

[Cronus Protagonist]

177. Once again, this thread is NOT about HIllary

Never was, never will be. I will not let you Hillary haters fuck with it.

[RBInMaine]

201. Do you need some cheese to go with your WHINE ! How about a hanky and teddy?

[Cronus Protagonist]

208. haha, thanks for the cheezey flavor there

It goes well with whine. :P

[TexasObserver]

178. First, by not being named Clinton, and second, by not being whored to every special interest in DC

There are plenty more, but you don't really want to know, do you?

[Cronus Protagonist]

180. This thread is not about Hillary

It just isn't. Sorry. Go somewhere else with that snit.

[TexasObserver]

182. This thread is about a junior senator with no record. Hillary is a junior senator with no record.

You started the thread. You're not the arbiter of it. You don't get to assert that someone arguing against your theme is out of order. You don't have to read my comments if they upset you, so please don't. You're not the only person in this conversation. If you want to talk to yourself, you don't need a thread in GDPrimaries to do that. If you're just going to whine because I don't buy your silly line of thought, stop reading my posts, and stop having a snit fit.

[Cronus Protagonist]

184. Once again, this thread is not about HiIlary

You're the snitter here, pal. Take your Hillary hating somewhere it's wanted. I'm not letting you hijack this thread. Sorry if you don't like it, but there's hundreds of Hillary hating threads here that you can go slap-fucking-happy in. I don't care for Hillary myself, but I don't hate her like you do.

You are welcome, however, to post HOW Obama is going to CHANGE the way WASHINGTON works, though. I've yet to hear anything substantive about that so far.

[TexasObserver]

187. Once again, I will frame my arguments as I wish. Move along.

It's obvious from your other posts on this thread that you think you have some proprietary rights here. You don't. Live with it, and stop being in such a snit.

[Cronus Protagonist]

195. haha

Go where you're appreciated. And where you're on topic. Life will be better for you and we'll all be better off.

[TexasObserver]

196. By not being sold out to the interests that line the Clinton's pockets, he will usher in a new era

1. By not being named Clinton, Obama will usher in a new era for the party and the nation, one badly needed.

2. By not being sold out to the interests that line the Clinton's pockets, he will usher in a new era that is not soiled by such dirtiness.

[Cronus Protagonist]

199. Yeah, if he was born with that last name, you'd hate HIM too

Shallow. Hateful. Sad. Pish tosh.

[TexasObserver]

203. It's not the name, but what the Clinton have come to represent.

Unfortunately for the Democratic party, they're both synonymous with lying, and that's why both are considered dishonest with a majority of Americans.

[Cronus Protagonist]

206. Everyone lies

Why would that be a problem? Ask anyone, anywhere, they'll tell you politicians lie. So do they. People lie. Bush is a liar. Obama and Hillary are both liars. Hopefully good liars. The best liars are so good, you can't tell they're lying. And you lie too, as do I.

Let she who is without sin cast the first stone.

Lying is a non-issue, more so now we're almost post-Bush.

And I'm guessing Bill fucked Monica in the oval office, lied about it and got away with it. (Bill would never settle for a blowjob when he could fuck her just as easily, maybe even MORE easily. I'm thinking they were surely fucking for a while.)

Nonetheless, when I think of his presidency, I think of 8 years of peace and prosperity. America at its best. Not perfect, but compares to what has come since, it was a paradise of peace and responsibile government. The US paid down its national debt.

And mcCain is lying.

[Sparkly]

181. How old are you?

That sounded snarky, but I'm serious.

I'm old enough to have heard the "change" slogan many times before. It really won't be done, and I don't expect it.

"Change" is what an inexperienced candidate runs on, along with "outside Washington," "charisma," different, honest, appealing to youth, etc. And there's nothing wrong with that.

"Experience" is what a candidate runs on when an opponent has the trump card for "change." That's being "tested," "reliable," trustworthy, strong, stable and capable, etc. Nothing wrong with that, either.

The flip-side of "change" is "unprepared and superficial." The flip-side of "experience" is "old failed politics of the past."

It's all just an old formula, as far as I'm concerned. Neither is perfect, neither is repulsive, and HOPEFULLY, either will beat McCain. That's all I care about right now (especially with two candidates this close on positions).

[TexasObserver]

183. 4, maybe 5, I'm guessing!

Talk about your childhood tantrum throwers. You'd think someone had refused to buy him a toy at the check out counter. A thread where he makes a statement challenging response, then goes off in a snit to everyone who doesn't agree with his narrow world view.

[Cronus Protagonist]

188. Your powers of observation are poor. TexasObserver

However, I didn't expect any more from you.

*plonk*

:P

[TexasObserver]

190. By not being like Hillary, he will change things in DC.

If that's still over your head, maybe you should think about that.

[Cronus Protagonist]

192. Yeah, HOW and WHAT?

You do know that change is not always to the positive, right?

[TexasObserver]

197. By not accepting money from the people who have bought Hillary, he'll bring change.

By not using the same old, out of date, racist Democratic hack machine politicians, he will open the party the nation up to a better political era, free of the stench of Clintons and Bushes.

[Sparkly]

205. Well in fairness, I have to ask -- how old are you?

Have you heard things like that before, or is this new to you?

[Cronus Protagonist]

185. I see you have been around the block too :)

I was hoping Obama was actually going to achieve something. I know Hillary will do OK, but I'm not so sure about Obama, although he has the potential to clean house. I don't think he's going to actually do it, and I wish I had heard in this thread how he's going to abolish corporate personhood, or regulate the media or abolish the electoral college or SOMETHING that I know Hillary won't do.

Apparently, we do have two almost identical candidates and that's a shame in these times of civil unrest, economic collapse and war. I pine for Dennis.

[Sparkly]

204. "I pine for Dennis."

I'm so used to pining for someone like Dennis, it's just the background music for everything else.

I've always said the world will be a much better place when someone like Dennis can become president. I wish we could make someone like him president in order to make the world a much better place, but it's never that simple.

There are some differences between Clinton and Obama -- but they aren't chasms. She is slightly left of him on policy, and perceived as right of him (and worse, of course); I'm afraid his "unity" means acquiescence to a party that'll pull the rug out from under him while shaking his hand, but he's got enormous support from young voters and we're forever hoping that'll come to some real fruition, so...

My firm stance is: "Whatever..." :shrug:

[indimuse]

186. WOW!

A "real" question! A GREAT one too. HOW?





K&R!

[Cronus Protagonist]

193. It's not really been a good one, I think, but better than flag pin crap :)

n/t

[KittyWampus]

198. Another DU'er exhibits their stupidity for all to see. If you paid ANY attention to Obama,

his campaign you'd have a clue.

But some prefer clinging to ignorance and pretending to be oh, so jaded and wise.

He's been building grassroots in all 50 states and getting people involved. That's the only way change ever happens.

[Cronus Protagonist]

207. You know, it truly is a crying shame

Every time I read one of your posts I think that. Very apropos moniker.

:)

[Zomby Woof]

200. As it states in my sig line

One cannot work for change within the system without inevitably serving the system itself.

That doesn't mean a small degree of positive change (hard to go from here but up, one would think) is out of the question, but it does set up a great burden of expectations for Senator Obama that cannot be met. I fully expect disappointment from some quarters, and considerable rationalization from others, when rallying around him as the pressure is applied.

[Scout]

211. kick for more obama supporters to try to answer ....

[TheDudeAbides]

212. Ok...I'll take a swing at this one...

I suspect you have to look at George Soros.
Once we understand George Soros' vision for America, we'll better understand the plan that Obama is expected to execute.