The Day After: if super-Ds give nom to HRC, even though BO wins delegates, popular vote

[npincus]

Well? What happens to the Dem party IF Dem Super-D big-wigs gift HRC with the nomination?

I think a mass-defection from the Democratic Party of a generation of "new" voters, and the permanent departure of most African americans AND many white supporters (count me in). Imagine the impact on the African American community if a handful of white elites think that an African American candidate who has WON all the metrics per party rules to become the nominee TAKE IT AWAY on a SUBJECTIVE view that Obama "just can't win" and HRC is "better".

The largely white punditocracy is not really talking about the impact of this scenario on our society.

Finally, the mass defection of so many of our party (most of whom will likely abstain from voting rather than vote for crazy McCain) will result in HRC getting CREAMED on election day. All hail President Crazy-McCain!



"Pssssst.... here's what you say next, President McCain!"

[4themind]

1. See that's the issue

The very position of the two candidates now, given the time left and the division in the party, and their respective paths to victory now, make one more electable than the other in my view.

[npincus]

super-Ds on the fence had better think long and hard

about what a mass disenfranchisement of millions of Dem voters and our African American Demcrats do to our country. it will be ugly beyond their imaginations.

[rocktivity]

17. They also ought to keep in mind that many of them have to re-apply

for their OWN jobs in November.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Triana]

10. NPR had a self-important twit SD on last night who insisted....

...(as NPR and the BBC did) that HRC had a better chance - they were ALL down on Obama.

NO ONE mentioned that Obama was ahead on the popular, pledged delegates, or states won OR that Hillary was out of money. It was as if those facts just DIDN'T EXIST.

If there is ANYONE WHO COULD SCREW THIS UP ROYALLY, it's Democrats. I'm a very progressive Indy - left the Dem party proper in 2001 - after Gore wrongfully stood down to the appointment of bu$h by the MEDIA, the usurping court, and the Repigs. Shut off my cable tv same time I left the party - for the same reason - the media helped DESTROY the Democrat who WON. THEY'LL DO IT AGAIN, too.

I have never voted Repug and never will - always Dem - HOWEVER, they do have a propensity for murdering their own potential and actual victories like that - AND the Repugs and the media AND our highly politicized courts and DOJ (which are now more highly politicized than EVER) are right behind them all the way helping them do it! Now, as in the past and moreso.

The lamestream media insists Hillary won by 10 points when it's EIGHT or NINE points. They keep saying 10.

So - I'm just sayin...THE MEDIA - owned by the corprats who want a Republican (Hillary) in power who won't change the status-quo one iota, will do and say (AND *NOT* SAY) anything to MAKE that happen - no matter WHAT it does to this country OR this party.

And the super-delegates? Well, they have political rifles and they have feet and Democrats often combine the two in politically lethal combinations, for some reason.

I trust none of them to uphold the will of the people, either. I already left the Dem Party - and this is just exactly why - situations just like this one where they helped themselves - LOSE - at the hands of corprat/Repig controlled media and gov't.

Me - I'm already gone...

[Tarc]

26. They see the reality; that Obama will be the 2nd coming of Mike Dukakis

a flavor of the week whose political green thumb will be a liability in the fall.

[npincus]

34. Bullsh*t. If Obama is Dukakis, then HRC is Ferraro--

another LOSER. Then let's compare McCain to Dole, or B*sh 41- two other war-hero republican LOSERS.

When Democrats start hurling the names of other Democrats as pejoratives AGAINST THEIR OWN, then they have proven they are disloyal scum. That's an argument I would expect to hear from a Repuke, not a Democrat. Such is the problem w/HRC's whole campaign- a destructive, disloyal effort to win at all cost by destroying a fellow Democrat and tearing the party asunder int he process. Start reading some editorial pages so you learn what more objective sources think of your candidate's tactics.

[Triana]

42. "a destructive, disloyal effort to win at all cost by destroying a fellow Democrat ..."

... and tearing the party asunder in the process."

Yep. That about sums HRC's "campaign" up.

[Tarc]

43. Too fucking bad, whiner

You may drink the kool-aid morning, noon, and night, but some of us have the ability to be a bit more objective, especially about our own. Dukakis was a weak, piss-poor nominee. And I lived in Mass at the time he was governor, so I don't even play favorites wit the homers.

Both Obama and to an extent his wife are simply weak and wholly inadequate for a general election campaign. The majority of the problems for his primary run so far have come from either one or the other opening their mouth and staying downright asinine things.

This is the worst possible situation we could be in right now, and hopefully there's enough superdelegate support to correct this before its too late.

[npincus]

48. opinions are like ____________________(fill in the blank)

everyone has one. You seem to think yours is the only one that matters, or is correct and are throwing expetives and insults at everyone who disagrees.

Fine, you are right- I worship at the altar of your wisdom. :rofl:

[Tarc]

2. Then the "mass defecters" will get a McCain presidency

and probably a Jeb Bush or Mitt Romney once after that, and you will richly deserve it.

I love how DU's conventional "wisdom" (boy is that term used loosely) is that Clinton's supporters are the bitter ones who would never support Obama in a general election. But whenever Obama gets a bloody nose, i.e. losing PA by 10%, all his loyalistas vow to leave the party rather than vote for Clinton, if she should win.

[npincus]

5. if a handful of elites "give" the nomination away after an election

then the Dem party can kiss my pretty white ass good-bye. I will vote for CLinton if she WINS fair and square.

[Tarc]

7. Then like I said, you deserve to have McCain for the president

Because you are too stupid and bitter to engage in logical thought.

[wileedog]

9. And you deserve every mediocre corporate shill

the party will jam down your throat for the rest of your life because you will simply accept what they tell you to.

Just think a minute if the situation were reversed and Hillary had this wrapped up and they decided to give it to Obama. What would your reaction be?

[Tarc]

21. Not to whine like a little child like you, for starters

I knew full well how superdelegate voting worked before the primary season started. Did you? I have no qualms about who is nominated or how they got there. A shame more of the Obama camp cannot say the same.

[wileedog]

23. Interesting

SO you knew full well that Florida and Michigan weren't going to count, right? That was the rules before this started.

You knew full well what a caucus was and how it worked right?

You knew full well that popular vote is meaningless compared to pledged delegates because of caucuses right?

You knew full well that SDs are a safety valve - an eject button if someone completely out of the party's interest managed to gain steam in the vote, not a decision making body right? Unless you are arguing that Obama is completely and totally and DEMONSTRABLY unelectable, which would be a tough argument since your candidate was just on TV last week saying that he is.

So in other words you knew full well what the rules were, but only some are relevant, right?

[Tarc]

25. Yes, they are a decision making body

They can vote however they like. Deal with reality and kindly shut the fuck up already, eh? This pity party act by the Obama fanatics is getting somewhat tiring.

[npincus]

31. such HRC fanatics will pick and choose whatever rules favor their

candidate, so your thoughtful, sensible and rational words will bounce off his/her head like rubber balls off a very dense, dense object.

I'd say the only use in responding to this individual is keeping my post kicked! :)

Perhaps his/her common sense was injured by that Bosnian sniper fire! :rofl:

[npincus]

18. if you think it's "stupid" to respect our democracy and play by rules

then I'll take it as a compliment.

Why have elections, anyway? To make the "little people" feel like they are choosing their leaders?

[Tarc]

20. Funny that you talk about "playing by the rules" when you yourself don't want to follow them

You do know that these are the rules of the Democratic Party, right? And they have been so for almost 30 years? 80% of the delegates come from the states, 20% comes from the supers. One is under no obligation to follow the course of the other. Its like the House and the Senate voting on a bill; each has their own ideas and opinions.

[wileedog]

6. I have more of an issue with a clutch of SDs

taking the vote into their own hands and deciding between two very viable candidates which one they "prefer" instead of by who the people elected than I do with Clinton.

If the party allows the elite insiders to play kingmaker I really have no use for this party anymore. Why should I bother voting for them if they are going to pick their own candidate anyway?

Again that has nothing to do with Hillary (although she makes it that much worse).

[OneBlueSky]

16. they and the rest of us will get a McCain presidency no matter who the nominee is . . .

have you not been paying sufficient attention? . . . did you not see what happened in 2000, in 2002, in 2004, and in 2006? . . . who wins the presidency has little or nothing to do with the votes cast by millions of Americans . . . it has everything to do with how those votes are "tabulated" by the Republican corporations that control the election process . . .

"it's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes" . . .

according to Mark Crispin Miller, the fix is already in for the 2008 election . . . and because the Democratic Congress did nothing to address election fraud and to turn elections back to the people, Republican operatives will once again determine the outcome . . . they have the means, they have the motive, and they will most certainly have the opportunity . . . so what's to stop them? . . . a sudden attack of conscience? . . .

[Taxmyth]

3. There have been serious doubts about Senator Obama's electability from the beginning

He just doesn't have the record of getting things done Senator Clinton has. Is it possible that he approached her BEFORE Primary season and she told him "no" about a VP slot and that's why he's running against her?

[npincus]

12. because he's running against a political celebrity and super-nova?

The Clintons were extremely popular and considered the leaders of our party. Do you think that a relative unknown, a black guy with a diverse background (Muslim dad) and a funny name would have had a chance in hell against either Clinton? His electability was always judged in that context. Bill CLinton was a young, untested, unknown that came out of nowhere in 1992 who ran as the "Man from Hope"-- sound familiar? Aren't you glad a handful of party big-wigs didn't decide that Bill CLinton was unelectable? It's a bullshit argument and will be judged very harshly if a democratic win is stolen (that's right) from Obama IF he does prevail in delegates.

[rateyes]

4. I'm one 48 year old white guy who will defect with that scenario...

...after all, what have the Dems in Congress done since they took power? We're still in Iraq. No impeachment investigations, etc. If Dems won't do what they promised, and then take away the will of the people to top it off....

[death to the DLC]

8. Ding Ding Ding

what is so hard to understand about this scenario?

The days of voting "just because there's a D next to the name" are over.

All reasons listed in above post.

Old, stale, white guy politics must be dealt with, one way or another.

[ima_sinnic]

15. as a white, 62-yo woman, I feel the same -- really no difference betw the 2 parties

in that scenario.

The Hillary Party (aka DLC-controlled "Democrats") is just the flip side of the repukes. It will eventually fall, as the Roman Empire fell, but unfortunately with sad consequences.

[cali]

11. stop your fretting.

SDs are not going to go to hilly. the trend is clear, and he win in PA just wasn't big enough. Governor Henry endorsed Obama this morning. Expect more SD endorsements for him over the coming days. she's done.

[npincus]

22. read post #10

This morning the familiar faces on teevee that tell Americans how and what to think are yapping about whether super-ds will stick with the winner of elected delegates or go with HRC like it's the difference between choosing vanilla or strawberry ice cream. A conversation entirely devoid of any depth or real analysis. Democracy and rules mean that little these days.

[Connie_Corleone]

13. This is what's so frustrating.

How can ANYONE think that Hillary will win in the general election if the superdelegates just gives the nomination to her when the other candidate has won more delegates, more states and leads in the popular vote?

Black people already know that we have to work twice as hard and be twice as good in order to be successful in this country. So, this primary fight is no big surprise to us. Obama has to jump thru hoops and walk on burning coals before he can get the nomination, but Hillary can lose 30 contests out of 45 and has no chance of beating him in pledged delegates, but, "SHE CAN STILL WIN IT!"

Go ahead, superdelegates. Give the nomination to Hillary and see what happens to your Democratic Party.

[npincus]

24. Bingo.

I'll march right with them.

[aaronbees]

38. Exactly! Burning coals indeed...

All this gab about Obama's supposed electability problem is just a double standard the frightened, soulless status quo Dems have happily set up to resist change. It's clear how Orwellian the whole discussion has become when the frame is shifted to make the leader in the race appear to be the one who "can't win it."

If the SDs overrode the will of the pledged delegates and total vote count then it's political suicide for the party, pure and simple.

[Eurobabe]

14. I'm beholden to no party

I consider myself an Independent who has always voted Democratic since 1992. I am registered "D" in PA so I could vote in the Primary, if the SuperD's hand this to Hillary I will switch my registration to "I" when I get back home next month.

[liberaldem4ever]

36. I never thought I would say it but

I will leave the Dem party and consider myself an Independent if that happens, and I have been a hardcore Dem for my whole life. I think there will be a lot of people who will do the same.

[Zodiak]

19. I'm with most of you

Take away the will of the people to install a neoliberal as the nominee and I will take my ball and go home. A party that blind, inept, and corrupt deserves to wither on the vine. Perhaps, like the phoenix, it will rise again whole.

[IsItJustMe]

27. Bitter would not even begin to describe my feelings towards this party, if your scenario comes to be

[zerostar]

28. THEMS THE RULES.

They can pick who they want, and they were setup for just this situation. We are not in Denver yet so lets see what transpires before then, ok?

[jr7]

29. The Day After: if super-Ds give nom to HRC, even though BO wins delegates, popular vote

I agree. This could be a massive disaster for the democratic party. Especially with a moderate like Mccain running. Plus there is talk Mccain might add Rice to the ticket. That could lure disgruntled African Americans as well. There is a halfway decent chance that somewhere along the line the VP might have to take over.

[Life Long Dem]

30. It will then be stolen and I won't vote for the Democratic nominee.

That's not the will of the people and I want nothing to do with politics like this. Obviously the majority of delegates (or the will of the people) would be meaningless. I'd also be looking at a protest.

Edited from - "majority of voters" to "majority of delegates"

[zerostar]

32. The MAJORITY means nothing! its about DELEGATES

and that is their judgment to make, this is the EXACT line BHO supporters have been using, and it is the TRUTH!

[Life Long Dem]

41. Well excuse me! I edited.

I edited from - "majority of voters" to "majority of delegates".

But how do you think the delegates are determined? Let's say someone gets 60% in an election. The 60% of the votes are a certain amount of the vote total. Correct? Then this 60% will get a certain amount of delegates. Correct? So for the SD's to go against the majority would overturn the will of the people and go against the tide.

Right out of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegate

The Democratic Party uses a proportional representation to determine how many delegates each candidate is awarded in each state. For example, a candidate who wins 40% of a state's vote in the primary election will win 40% of that state's delegates; however, a candidate must win at least 15% of the primary vote, or they win no delegates. If a candidate wins 14% of the primary election, they receive zero delegates. There is no process to win superdelegates, since they can vote for whomever they please. A candidate needs to win a simple majority of total delegates to earn the Democratic nomination.

[shadowknows69]

33. I suspect I'll have to riot

If even only in my own living roomB-)

Furniture WILL die.

[npincus]

35. LOL. There go my new teevee sets, my kitchen appliances

and probably my marriage.

[shadowknows69]

37. The upside is that I can't get arrested for looting from myself

[mmonk]

39. This is a battle for the heart and soul of the party.

The only result will be two parties out of one. This is a guarantee if the DLC side wins in less than honest means IMO. Informed activists will finally leave.

[npincus]

40. it will extend beyond our party and the ripple effect through our society

will be devastating and permanent. When rules cannot protect the rights (the votes) of less powerful ethnic monorities, there is no incentive to respect the rule of law. That goes along with all people who have been disenfranchised, regardless of ethnicity or "party" loyatly.

The insulated elite who breathe rariefied air do not get this?

[death to the DLC]

46. you nailed it

this is a battle for the heart and soul of the party.

It's obvious which side the elite and their bought and paid for media are on.

[redqueen]

44. On MSNBC they were talking about the Reagan vs. Ford primary.

In 76?

Anyway... yeah.

[GarbagemanLB]

45. If Obama wins the pledged delegates and Hillary still wins the nomination...

I will be switching my party registration to Independent and voting for Nader in November.

I want no part in a party that has 'elites' decide a nomination over the will of the people. Talk about a fucking repuke tactic.

[kenny blankenship]

47. It won't happen so don't worry about it. They don't want to slit their own throats.