Barack Obama is unelectable.

[aquarius dawning]

Deep down in your heart, you know it's true. He's not carrying the states that he needs to carry in the general election, the battleground states. He was rejected by PA despite his very best efforts. He was rejected by Ohio despite his very best efforts. Against John McCain, he loses Florida by an average of http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/fl/florida_mccain_vs_obama-418.html">11.7 points. Incidentally, he only beats Hillary by http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/fl/florida_mccain_vs_clinton-417.html">0.3 points-well within the MOE. RCP has him losing Michigan to Hillary by an overall average of http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/mi/michigan_democratic_primary-238.html.">23.5 points. Arguments can be made that this data isn't current and doesn't reflect the current gains he has made in this campaign however, the Florida data is current and shows his popularity is declining in that state despite his campaign efforts and his national exposure so such an argument is not entirely valid. John Kerry lost the election by one state, Ohio, a state that Barack Obama loses to John McCain according to http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/oh/ohio_mccain_vs_obama-400.html">RCP polling data by 2.6 points. Hillary beats McCain http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/oh/ohio_mccain_vs_clinton-399.html">by an average of 5 points according to the same data. Al Gore lost the election by one state, Florida, another state that Barack Obama loses (legitimately). You want to talk about Missouri? Kerry lost Missouri to Bush by nearly 200,000 votes. Do you really think he'll carry Missouri in the general? The rejection of Barack Obama by Pennsylvania voters only further illustrates that significant numbers of significant demographics aren't prepared to vote for Barack Obama. If he can't win Northern swing states, what makes you think he'll win a southern swing state? Or even a single southern state for that matter? Virginia? Virginia has voted Democrat twice in the past 60 years. Given his weaknesses in the aforementioned battleground states, I think you gamble against long odds if you think he'll win VA let along win the GE because of it. Basically, you're trying to make the argument that he can win the general election by being unelectable in swing states and southern states. How on earth do you expect him to win the general election without carrying swing states or southern states? He's unelectable. You're forcing us into a losing proposition. If John McCain had a heart, he'd thank you from the bottom of it.

edit to fix links

[rocktivity]

1. Which means that Hillary is even more so.

If Obama's so unbeatable, why hasn't she been able to bypass him?

:shrug:
rocknation

[Coexist]

3. my thoughts exactly.

[SeaLyons]

12. No, Obama is the front runner...

at this point if he can't beat Hillary, something is seriously wrong. He out spent her, he's got the media behind him - there is just no excuse other than the fact he can't win the states that matter. He can't connect with everyday people.

[aquarius dawning]

21. They're going to make excuse after excuse just so they can find out the hard way

what we already know.

[AllexxisF1]

26. He has the media behind him?

WTF are you F-ing serious?

What the hell was Wright, Lapels and Bitterness all about? That was somehow softballs by the press?


I am so sick to death about how he cannot win these big states in the general election when a Democratic primary voted only by Democrats have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT COULD HAPPEN IN A GENERAL ELECTION.

[Pawel K]

60. He beat Hillary months ago on super tuesday

it's not his fault she and her supporters refuse to accept the results.

And since huckabee didn't drop out until the very end of the republican primary I guess you will be making the same argument about McCain? And isn't one of Hillary's talking points that Bill didn't secure the nomination until June?

But again, don't let the facts stop you from posting all this bs.

[wileedog]

74. Who was the frontrunner - inevitable even - in January?

Collassal meltdown of a campaign. You really want her dysfunctional mess of a staff screwing up the GE this bad? Or her immense unfavorable rating and dishonesty rating?

[Triana]

90. 1. The media is NOT behind him - they attempted to politically lynch him..

...numerous times - they did it on April 17th and they're doing it again, now.

2. ONLY OBAMA can win against McSame in the general. Hillary consistently - in every poll published - LOSES to McSame in a matchup.

Hello?

What planet are you from?

[Bake]

137. I think "lynch" is perhaps a bit of a loaded term ...

He's still the front-runner. No lynching as far as I can see. But as an Obama supporter, you go right ahead and keep using racially-charged terms, and then accuse US of throwing the race card ...

Bake

[Shae]

135. Well, hey Cricket,,

no one stopped Hillary Clinton from spending more money. She knew all along that Obama was spending more money than she was, so why didn't she up the ante? Why didn't she spend more if she wanted to stay competitive?


And if you think Obama can't connect with people, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj53T7sg3wc

and while you're watching the video, think about the fact that when Hillary Clinton was giving a speech to union members last week, she got booed. And while you're thinking about that, google "Hillary Clinton" and "booed" and when you've done all that, get back to me on which candidate connects with people.
I'll be here waiting.

[aquarius dawning]

18. The data that I just linked to says otherwise friend.

She wins where it matters. Make all the comments you want to about "states that don't matter". The fact is, however, some states matter a whole hell of a lot more than others and she does better than him in those states. She is more electable than him because of this. Your argument fails.

[polpilot]

32. Why can't she 'close'. Why has Obama beaten her? She 'denies' being beaten???

[aquarius dawning]

87. keep avoiding the points. I don't care.

[papau]

19. Hillary won blue colar Scanton by about 50 points - white men and women overall - women by 2 to 1

[BornBlue]

110. She also said Scanton, about a million times in the last 6 weeks.

Of course she won Scanton by a huge margin. She wouldn't stop talking about her summer home where she learned how to shoot, and fish and just had a ball growing up like you regular folk, even though you regular folk can't afford your everyday homes let alone a summer home. Even though they didn't have heat, they made it through the summer. People like to hear their city name, makes 'em feel important.

Obama does have a problem with blue collar whites, it is obvious, but you also have to take into account all these numbers change when there is a CLEAR nominee. When people don't have a choice, backs against the wall, John McCain or Barack Obama, if we drive that message home, he will win.

All we have to do is keep playing that same commercial the DNC put out, Do You Feel Better Off?

[IsItJustMe]

30. If Obama can't do it, there is no way in hell Hillary can. Just the way it is.

[aquarius dawning]

35. Ya'll keep saying that and I keep directing you to the links in the OP which suggest otherwise

She does better than him in the states that we need to do better in. She is more electable.

[redqueen]

92. Exactly.

And her campaign is a sad and sorry joke.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

176. she carries far fewer states, has less votes and can't carry a tune either

much less run a campaign.

[yourguide]

2. She is unelectible

which is why he's beating her.

[godai]

4. Hillary Clinton is unelectable

Why do you think Repubs like Scarborough and Buchanan keep pushing for Hillary? If they thought Obama was easier to beat, they'd side with him.
Do you have an answer for this?

[npincus]

5. just "give" it to HRC and we'll SEE who's unelectable.

If you-all don't like the results, that's too damned bad. That's democracy. The people have spoken.

[flpoljunkie]

6. Hillary Clinton is unelectable on "Snipergate" alone against "war hero" John McCain

The media will see to it. Don't kid yourself. Why do you think Joe Scarborough and Pat Buchananan are working so hard to make her our nominee.

[tekisui]

7. Hillary disagrees. "Yes. Yes. Yes." Obama can beat McCain.

Hillary can't even beat Obama.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. even her aides admitted last week that they needed 20+ in PA to continue

she got barely half what she needed. Translation, she lost and will continue to lose.

[TankLV]

11. only in your delusions...nice try...

you bots are going all out this morning...

the obamaunderground is really nauseating...

[ChairmanAgnostic]

23. are you simply unaware, or delusional?

wolfson admitted exactly that.

[godai]

24. Because we disagree with you, you're nauseated?

Ever try repsonding with facts rather than talking points and namecalling? How about trying to point out some facts in these posts, where we are incorreect. Why do Republicans (Scarborough and Buchanan for example) so heavily support Hillary? Can you respond to that?

[mmonk]

9. Does that mean Hillary is less than unelectable considering

where she is in the race?

[BayouBengal07]

10. Do those polls count voter turnout?

Who knows how many Dems will come out and vote in November.

[shadowknows69]

13. One: Paragraphs are your friend

Two: FAIL

[Buzz Clik]

14. Hillary has spent every ounce of energy and every dime she can rub together to beat him. She can't.

He's electable.

If Hillary were so electable, she would be beating the holy hell out of Obama. She is not.

I am all for letting the system play out.

[ScarletSniper]

15. "Deep down in your heart, you know it's true. "

Nope. Try again.

Hillary has the name recognition.
Hillary has the political machine.
Hillary had 140+ million at the start.
Hillary is losing to a "rookie!"

So, who's unelectable again?

Lmao.

[aquarius dawning]

42. You really don't get it. She does better than him in the states that we needto do better in.

His ability to win a Texas caucus means jack shit in the GE. he is unelectable. He needs to win battleground states, southern states, or combinations of both to pull of a GE win and there's nothing to suggest that he can. The audacity of hope isn't enough.

[ScarletSniper]

45. Where's your proof that he won't garner a good portion of the Dems that voted for Hillary?

[havocmom]

53. In the GE, it won't matter. People want change and an end to bush style GOP crap

McCain has promised more of what people don't want. Obama wins.

A few months ago, there were lots of predictions that Hillary was 'inevitable'. Those silly chants didn't come true either. If she can't win the DEM vote, OVERALL, she ain't gonna score in the GE. Too many voters see her as the bush collaborator she has been.

[digidigido]

86. Think about this

Hillary’s candidacy divides. It plays right into the hands of the Republican party and their grand plan to continue dividing America. She is as polarizing a figure as possible. George Bush beat Al Gore, and even though Gore was running as the candidate who would continue peace and prosperity, he was colored by being a part of the drama of the Clinton years, Monica gate, all the other Bimbo’s gate, lying under oath, and getting impeached.
The Democrats have lost seats in congress every election after the Clintons came to power, including control of the House after Bill’s first term. That trend continued as they lost the Whitehouse. The Republicans don’t really care if Hillary wins, they know she won’t really change things, and that in 4 - 8 years they can regain control of the Whitehouse and continue their divisive politics that she will not change.
How is it possible to take money and endorsements from Richard Mellon Scaiffe and Rupert Murdoch, along with more money from PAC and special interest groups then ny other candidate Republican or Democrat, and be considered an agent of change?
How can you challenge Fox News and demand a return to the fairness doctrine in the media when you are indebted to Rupert Murdoch?
How can you have a Healthcare plan that puts people first when you are indebted to the insurance companies?
How can you inspire people to greatness when you appeal to their fears?
How can you challenge China on trade and human rights abuses when your economic policy plays right into their hands, and you have been on the board of directors of Wal Mart?
How can you be an agent of change when you’re invested in what needs to be changed?
Hillary accuses Obama of being nothing but rhetoric, but look at her actions and think if this is the direction the country needs to go… the same way it’s been going.

[dana_b]

160. Great response. I'd also add (although your post needs no reall additions)

that she will probably lose the left. I know that's not her base, but that's who will have a hard to impossible time voting for her. She's a middle-of-the-road to right wing candidate now.

[earth mom]

167. First get something straight. GORE WON 2000. * STOLE 2000 & 2004.

The rethuglicans play DIRTY to win except they are doing it differently this time around.

First:They-the rethuglican owned corporate media-chose Hillary & Obama because they knew that those two candidates would divide the dems which is exactly what's happened.

Second: They ignored Edwards who was an extremely strong candidate and basically figured out a way to silence him before it was too late.

Third: Hillary and Obama were chosen because if one of them were by some "fluke" elected, then the rethuglicans would still have a DINO candidate to carry water for them.

So, make no mistake BOTH Obama & Hillary are DINO corporatists. They will serve big business before they ever think of serving the people.

The only difference is that Hillary is willing to kick a little rethuglican a$$. While Obama will ki$$ a little rethuglican a$$.

[Nederland]

134. You don't get it

She doesn't do "better than him in the states that we need to do better in." Newflash: we haven't had ANY general elections in ANY states. Primary election results in a state tell you absolutely nothing about how the general election in that state will go. Nothing. Do you think MA will go to McCain if Obama is the nominee because Obama lost the MA primary? Do you think TX will go to Hillary if she's the nominee because Hillary won the TX primary? Give me a fucking break. Primary elections tell you nothing about general elections, period end of story.

Get it?

[aquarius dawning]

153. I'm looking at the polling data in the swing states first and the primary results second.

All polling has Hillary doing much better than Obama in head to head matchups against McCain in the battleground states. I'm not going to rewrite the entire OP because you missed that point. Go back and see for yourself. She wins the battle grounds. he loses them. She won them in the primary. He lost them. Conclusions can be drawn. end of story. get it?

[SeaLyons]

16. Obama is Unelectable....

He cannot win the GE.

[godai]

28. Hillary is unelectable.

Repubs are praying that she gets the nomination.

[aquarius dawning]

The data doesn't support that argument. Click on the links in the OP and see for yourself

she does better than him in the states that we need to do better in.

[ScarletSniper]

49. Hillary will lose the black vote and the youth vote..Dems can't win without them, especially the

black vote and I can tell you from the circles I travel in, if this thing is taken from Obama..you can count out the black vote.. I can't speak for the youth, but I bet many would simply stay home.

The black people I spoke to, won't vote McCain in large numbers, they'll just stay home. It will hurt her big time.

[aquarius dawning]

61. You're in a lose/lose situation then and you're stuck with it.

[ScarletSniper]

71. No ..if you're a Dem you're stuck with it too sweets! Now what else you got..

[aquarius dawning]

81. Not so much actually I'm afraid.

[ScarletSniper]

89. You should be, it's gonna get nasty and the Dems have a strong chance of losing this Nov. people

don't like to hear it, but it's true. This is a mucked up situation and we have a very strong chance of going down in flames.

[SeaLyons]

65. I disagree....

Hillary will get the black vote, and as far as the youth vote goes, those are not dependable voters for either candidate.

Hillary will beat McCain, no doubt about it.

[ScarletSniper]

84. I am black, I am a member of diff, AA coalitions, sorority & othe memberships..if it is taken

from Obama when he has the lead, you better belive Hillary won't get the black vote. I'm not pulling this out my ass, I'm telling you of actual conversations from black people. How many of those have you had?

They won't vote McCain, but they won't vote Hillary either. I'm sorry that's real. A professor of AA studies(he's in one my social circles) says, it could harken back to a time when the Republicans loss the black vote in large blocs and never recovered from it. He believes that's why McCain recently visited Selma, and won't overly bash Obama because he's looking to capitalize on it should the Dems/super delegates fuck this up.


So, I'm telling you straight out, the word inside the "club"...blacks will not vote for Hillary in large numbers and will stay home, if this thing is taken from Obama..bet on it.

[SeaLyons]

97. Well, then they will cut off their nose to spite their face...

Those blacks that will not vote for Hillary are those that are either new to politics and don't have their eye on the big picture, or those that probably wouldn't vote anyway if it wasn't for the fact that an AA is running.

[ScarletSniper]

115. But it doesn't matter. She'll lose without them and guess what many are not new voters..sorry

Btw, what about the whites that won't vote for Obama..what are they? Guess, their eye isn't on the big picture either, huh? Many of those whites said they will vote for McCain, not even stay home, but will vote for the repub...that's worse than blacks saying they will sit it out.

Many of the blacks I speak with are not new voters, sorry. It just ain't so..I'm not a member of youth circles...I'm not a spring chicken.

[SeaLyons]

118. ...

whatever....let's let the best candidate win, and that would be a DEM in the White House. I'm sure we can agree on that.

[ScarletSniper]

122. I'm just speaking of realities and sharing what I know to be true..and if this thing doesn't gel and

soon, the Dems will lose this election in November.

[SeaLyons]

124. trust me, the dems will win in November

no matter what!!

[ScarletSniper]

125. You hold on to that...

[LeFleur1]

121. Voting

There will be a certain number of uninformed, suicidal people who won't vote the Democrat ticket if their candidate doesn't get the nomination. But they must be either young and stupid, or old and demented,
Working class people with brains will vote Democratic. Women, although disappointed that a candidate with Hillary's qualifications did not receive the nomination, will vote Democratic. College people who understand the stakes will vote Democratic. Independents...I don't know. They don't know what they believe or they wouldn't be Independent.

This nominating season is just a blip. The Republicans must be thrown out for the good of our country. Anyone who doesn't understand that isn't smart enough to be voting anyway.

[ScarletSniper]

123. If you say so

[Bake]

138. So if AAs leave the party, are they going to go over to the Pukes?

No, of course not. So they stay home, not just in this election, but for the next, let's say, decade. They effectively have NO voice in national politics, outsdie the two parties; that's our system and it's not going to change any time soon.

Do you really think that a poeple as politically active and involved as AAs have been are really going to just drop out alrogether?

I'm NOT assuming they will vote automatically for ANY Dem. I'm really asking the question more for information.

Bake

[goclark]

180. Hello My Sister and maybe Soror ~ with you all the way

Can you believe the statement in the post below mine ...

"Those blacks that will not vote for Hillary are those that are either new to politics and don't have their eye on the big picture, or those that probably wouldn't vote anyway if it wasn't for the fact that an AA is running."

1. "New to politics?" LOL
My sister, the people you are talking to are just like the ones I'm talking to -- NO HILLARY,NO WAY
Not a dime or my time will I give to her.

We have worked all the elections,attended conventions, been precinct captains, voted and supported HC/BC, read their books, shook their hands, got pictures taken with them and now see them as they really are --

Fool us once but don't fool us twice!!!!

2."Don't have eyes on big picture" ~ our eyes are on the big picture alright,how insulting to think that because we are African American we are not intelligent! We know a BIG PICTURE when we see one!

Do you like Pink and Green? :)

3. "probably wouldn't vote anyway if it wasn't for the fact that an AA is running."

That one really did it! Most African Americans have been the ones to turn the election , stood in long lines, had their votes suppressed to vote for WHITE MEN every time. There would be no President Clinton if he had not solidly carried our votes and he would have been thrown out of office if our ministers(including Rev. Wright) had not stood solidly behind him when he was "innocent" of "Not Having Sex With That Woman."

Our ministers and the Black Caucus and our people stood solidly with Hillary and Bill and truly believed that they were being treated unfairly.

And now we see their "supporter" speaking of us like this. :puke:

I am now inspired to send my dear dear Sen. Obama the sum of $100. Since it is the end of the month, have more to give. And when my Mother, gomama, reads the post below, she will Push that button for OBAMA too.

Peace my Sister

[SeaLyons]

67. Repubs are in trouble

this election, whomever gets the nomination, and you're wrong. They would prefer Obama as the nominee at this point. Either way, the power is with the Dems in November.

[godai]

83. You apparently don't listen to Buchanan and Scarborough.

They just love Hillary. Why do you think that's so?

[bdamomma]

75. exactly, the repigs are just waiting in the wings to pounce.

all the more reason why a dem whoever it is must win or suffer the consequences of more of the same, more wars and death with another bush clone. We cannot risk another repig in the WH.

[ClassWarrior]

17. We drew more than FIVE TIMES the Rape-Publican voters last night...

...so why wouldn't Obama win the big states after he's officially declared the nominee and the Party unites behind him? Sounds like more than FIVE TIMES the voters as McBush is a sure win in big states.

:shrug:

NGU.

[aquarius dawning]

27. McCain is already the nominee. The Republican contest is over for now.

[ClassWarrior]

31. We generated those same totals when Mittens and Huckleberry were in the race.

NGU.

[yourout]

20. You have just won an free trip..........to my ignore list.

[aquarius dawning]

25. I'm all tore up about that

[Ice-9]

22. *Yawn*

He's not carrying the states that he needs to carry in the general election, the battleground states. He was rejected by PA despite his very best efforts. He was rejected by Ohio despite his very best efforts.

And Senator Clinton was rejected by 92% of black Pennsylvanians, despite her very best efforts. I guess that means they'll all be voting for McCain if Hillary gets the nomination.

:eyes:

This "if you can't win it in the primary you can't win it in the general" reasoning is assinine.

[aquarius dawning]

29. I'm sure those black Pennsylvanians will vote for John McCain in November too if Hillary wins.

sure they will. The white pennsylvanians on the other hand...and Ohioans, and floridians, and Missourians, etc, etc.

[ScarletSniper]

51. I am black and I can tell you from my groups and social situations..they won't vote McCain, but they

won't vote Clinton either. They will stay home and that really, really hurts the democratic party and Hillary if she's given the nod by Super delegates..but I don't think its gonna happen anyway, she won't be the nominee.

[Dawgs]

55. "The white pennsylvanians on the other hand...and Ohioans, and floridians, and Missourians, etc,.."

Those people are Democrats, right? If yes, then why won't they vote for Obama over McCain?

[aquarius dawning]

63. I don't know. It's a big fucking mystery I guess.

Click on the links to the polling data in the OP and see for yourself though. She does better against McCain in t e states that we really need to do better against McCain in.

[Pawel K]

68. Hillary can't win without black support

if the SDs snatch the nomination from under the first black nominee those blacks will stay home. So what's your point?

I wish that people would start making arguments based on reality, not Hillary's talking points. You all should be smarter than that.

[ScarletSniper]

91. Yep. that's reality.

[aquarius dawning]

95. This isn't about Hillary anymore friend, it's about Obama.

that's your reality.

[Pawel K]

102. Edit: self delete. I need more coffee this morning.

[aquarius dawning]

103. I've probably had too much myself.

[ScarletSniper]

116. It's about Obama and Hillary..sorry...you can't dodge it. She can't lock it up anymore than he can.

[Dawgs]

78. I can pull just as many polls showing Hillary losing in Democratic contests.

Which means you can easily make an argument that both are unelectable; or even electable. And, polls now regarding the GE are ridiculous. Many Obama supporters are voting against Hillary in these polls, and the same is true for Hillary supporters. Those numbers will change dramatically when the nom is settled.

[aquarius dawning]

100. RCP has most all of the major polls figured into their averages. That's what I posted.

These are averages of all polls and they all lead to the same conclusion, that Hillary does better against McCain in the states that we need to do better against McCain in.

[Dawgs]

106. I guess you ignored the rest of my post.

Which is, there is no way to get an accurate read on the GE numbers until after the nomination is settled. There should be no doubt that some Hillary supporters are saying they will vote for McCain over Obama in these polls just to make him look worse; and the same is true for Obama supporters. The fact is most of these supporters will eventually vote for the Democrat in November.

[dkf]

33. All I know is I'm supporting the candidate that isn't interested in starting WWIII.

And that doesn't include warmonger Hillary.

[greguganus]

34. Attention seeker.

[CK dexter]

36. Why do so many attacks on Obama suggest BOTH candidates suck?

"You're candidate's just as much a loser as mine is!"

Is it cynical manipulation or just plain lack of intelligence?

[RBInMaine]

37. Once again, a political NOVICE is trying to comapare primary to GE. You CAN'T !

[aquarius dawning]

94. You can with the battleground states. That's what I'm talking about

and that's where you're wrong.

[stray cat]

38. I see no evidence that either given the state of the party will beat McCain

Once again the dems may pull defeat from victory

[ProSense]

39. Barack Obama is

winning.

[aquarius dawning]

159. Not where and how it matters. No he's not. and, in case you missed it, she stole his momentum.

and is going into a number of contests that favor her, not him.

[abq e streeter]

40. I'm trying to get used to saying "President McCain" ( without barfing or crying)

I support Obama but not strongly; I dislike HRC quite a bit, but will vote for a Democrat for every single office from dog-catcher to president and everything in between.. I believe these two were our weakest candidates and that that is one of the main reasons the MSM tried to make it seem like a two person race from the beginning. I pray that I'm wrong, but I believe my party is once again grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory. This election should have been a slam dunk, and would have been with Edwards or several of the other ignored-by-the-media original group of candidates. Now I think we're fucked. Obviously I would be absolutely thrilled to be ultimately proven wrong.

[earth mom]

165. Exactly-THE CORPORATE MEDIA CHOSE THE TWO WEAKEST CANDIDATES in Hillary & Obama

the people of this country didn't have a say!

Meanwhile, people around DU simply don't understand that horrific fact.

The day Edwards was pushed out of the race, was the day I knew the race was doomed. :cry:

[abq e streeter]

169. worst part is the people DID have a say, but were too ignorant and lazy to take the opportunity

and ALLOWED the MSM to dictate the choices. I do find the people of DU to be among the few people who really do, by and large, understand how the MSM intentionally marginalized and shoved aside Edwards and the others...Edwards had been by far the choice of the majority ( or at least plurality) of DUers in poll after DU poll .So I find that the guilt is equally shared; the corporate media obviously, but also the average un- or barely informed citizenry who lets themselves be swayed by whatever BS they hear on the TeeVee...and maybe even more importantly, by what ( and who) they DON'T hear...

[earth mom]

170. I think Edwards would have won hands down. nt

[abq e streeter]

171. I think so too; easily...I wish there was a way we could do a do-over...

nah, same thing would've happened--the sheeple would've been convinced there were only two Democrats running, just like last year...Whole thing just sucks---Edwards was the man , and we fucking blew it.

[Ganja Ninja]

41. If he's so "unelectable" then why is Hillary still running behind?

The fact of the matter is that Hillary lost ground in PA over the last 3 weeks to Obama. If the tide is turning in her favor how come she went from a 20 point lead in PA to only an 8.5 point win? If the tide was turning she should have gained ground not lost it. Hillary can't hold a lead let alone build one. Obama is the only one in this campaign to show he can gain ground on his opponents.

[aquarius dawning]

44. 9.386 according to my math.

And he still lost and you miss the point. The rejection of Barack Obama by PA voters despite his very best efforts only further illustrates his inability to win the key demographics in the key states. This isn't spin, this is reality. He can't win what he needs to win.

[Ganja Ninja]

52. Currently the state election website says 8.6%

http://www.electionreturns.state.pa.us/

She dropped like a rock over the last 3 weeks.

[Dawgs]

62. PA is one fucking state!!!

You don't declare the winner of the whole thing based on 5-7 states.

Are you new to politics, cause you're making an ass of yourself.

[aquarius dawning]

66. ya'll have been doing that for months now so kindly STFU.

[Dawgs]

79. I've been making an ass of you for months. Wow, I didn't even know.

:)

[Ganja Ninja]

80. Oh yeah on the point you're trying to make.

This is a PRIMARY election. Winning or losing a primary doesn't mean you'll do the same in the general election. It's a false analogy. I think you know that and I know Hillary knows that. So why is she trying to push something she knows is blatantly false?

[aquarius dawning]

108. comparisons can be made with swing states though. Conclusions can be drawn.

I think you know that.

[Ganja Ninja]

114. drawn or jumped to? n/t

[guyanakoolaid]

43. Haha - Ignore the numbers... look "deep down into your heart" for who the nominee will be

Sorry, around here we count with numbers instead of emotion. We usually get more accurate totals that way

[aquarius dawning]

50. I never said anything about who the nominee will be and ya'll are the ones ignoring numbers.

I'm saying that he won't win the GE and he won't. I haven't been wrong about anything in this election yet because I don't ignore the numbers. I look at them very closely in fact.

[guyanakoolaid]

56. If you were so good at looking at the numbers, you'd see Obama will be the nominee

I guess your crystal ball skips past that to get to the GE. :eyes:

[tledford]

126. The contraction of "you all" is "y'all" and not "ya'll" n/t

[still_one]

46. What the hell are you talking about, this is a DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY, not the general election

How come the national polls have Obama doing better than Hillary against mccain, hmmmmmm.

Clinton was the favored candidate, the insider, the one who was supposed to have it wrapped up after Super Tuesday, what happened

Obama came out of no where to fight an entrenched political machinery.

It isn't going according to plan from the Carville Democrats, and they are pissed

You whole logic is wrong. You say Al Gore lost because of Florida. How come he didn't lose because of Tennesee, HIS HOME STATE?

"You're forcing us into a losing proposition".

I will vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is, but I am very tired of the attacks that your candidate continues to infer, like only she and mccain our qualified to be president, but Obama is not, or to question Obama's patriotism, or hang out there that he might be Muslim

The true colors of Hillary, and for that matter Bill have made themselves know this campaign, and that is that they are scum. Lying runs in the family with them. It comes natural with those two

If she wins the nomination I will vote for her only because of the Supreme Court.

Point blank, in the mildest terms I can think of, she is a jerk, who voted for the IWR which overturned the War Powers Act, voted for the bankrupcy bill, voted for the Kyle/Lieberman ammendment, and voted for the use of cluster bombs in civillian areas

The Clinton's care only about the Clintons, and to screw the country and the party

[aquarius dawning]

59. "How come the national polls have Obama doing better than Hillary against mccain, hmmmmmm."

National numbers mean less than battle ground state numbers when you stop and think about it. When an entire election rides on the outcome of one oe two states, those are the states you look at.

"If she wins the nomination I will vote for her only because of the Supreme Court."
and that's the real bitch about all of this, the crux of the biscuit if you will, that so many people who will vote for Hillary won't vote for Obama if he is nominated.

[Dawgs]

64. "National numbers mean less than battle ground state numbers"

Right, but you have zero proof that Obama can't be McCain in the GE. And, using current poll numbers from "bitter" Hillary supporters doesn't count.

[aquarius dawning]

127. The polls I linked to do count and they don't suggest that BO is more electable than Hillary.

If BO loses Florida, which he will judging from his poll numbers there against McCain, he has to win Ohio (assuming there are no other changes from the 2004 election results). Look at Ohio then. Hillary beats McCain by an average of 5 points and Obamam loses by an average of 2.6 points. This then suggests that, for whatever reason, he will lose both Florida and Ohio whereas, for whatever reason, Hillary wins these KEY swing states.

OK. Skip ahead to election night. Barack Obama has just lost Ohio and Florida to John McCain. That's 47 electoral votes he has to make up somewhwere else. Where will he get them? He has to change the 2004 map. Let's say he manages to win Missouri (which is highly unlikely). That still isn't enough. He has to flip another state. How about Missouri plus Colorado? That still isn't enough. How about Missouri,Colorado, and Mississippi. Still isn't enough. Let's say he also flips Virginia. That now equals a win. So, by running a candidate that can't win in Ohio or Florida, we have to flip Mississipi, Virginia, Missouri, and Colorado. That's three red ass southern states mind you that you're expecting a black Presidential candidate (with a muslim name and a serious preacher problem no less) to flip plus one western state that is completely inconsistent. That also assumes that no states will flip against us which is a very big assumption considering the Michigan poll numbers and BO's failure to win in Pennsylvania despite his herculean efforts. I'll say it again: Barack Obama is unelectable.

[still_one]

139. I know, and that only reinforces my belief that Hillary, and some of her supporters

care more about winning than about the country or the party

[last_texas_dem]

47. Well, if Clinton's campaign for the nomination has been run so poorly

that she let someone as "unelectable" as Obama overtake her in delegates and presumptive frontrunner status, I'm not sure we could count on her to run that great of a campaign were she the general election candidate.

Also, I still have not seen any evidence for this whole idea that whether or not a candidate carries a particular state in the primary will make that much of a difference in terms of how that state will go in the general. I'm not sure why this claim keeps getting repeated over and over.

[ps1074]

48. BREAKING NEWS - Kerry wins PA, OH and FL Primaries

Sure bet to win them in the general election.

[DemVet]

54. K&R

Go Hillary, Go!!!

[Marie26]

57. Yeah, he is.

Even Obama's own polls show him going to the convention w/o securing the nomination. He can't, won't get the number of delegates needed for nomination. And he has proven problems attracting core elements of the Dem base. Clinton is unelectable too - she can't get the number of delegates needed either w/o superdelegates. So it's a stalemate. Total impasse. This is going to be a unity ticket, whether people like it or not. Obama/Clinton, Clinton/Obama, I almost don't care anymore.

[LynneSin]

58. Clearly you don't have a fricking clue about Pennsylvania

There are 67 counties. Republicans win about 60 of them - counties like Elk, FOrest and Perry which have less than 3000 people living in them. Think of these counties like Idaho, Wyoming and North Dakota - very large states with very very small populations.

And yet Pennsylvania has been going democrat now for awhile. Our governor is a democrat, one of the senators is now a democrat and PA has gone for the democrat prez candidate for about 4-5 elections (after Reagan). And we'll go democrat even though we'll lose 60 of the counties in the state.

All we need to win is Philadelphia and Allegheny and pick up some of the Philly/Pitts suburbs like Montgomery, Bucks, Chester and Delaware (those are the philly ones, don't know the Pittsburgh suburb counties).

We keep tight in counties near other urban areas like Erie, Dauphin (Harrisburg), Luzerne (Wilkes-Barre Scranton) and Lehigh (Allentown) and the democrat is unbeatable.

As long as Obama (or Clinton) wins the New York/California counties of Pennsylvania (Allegheny/Philadelphia) we should be fine

[aquarius dawning]

72. yes I do actually. The polling data that I linked to supports everything I claimed

and you're avoiding the points. PA probably isn't a swing state ( I didn't say it was) but BO's inability to close the deal in PA after all this time, money, and effort casts seriuous doubts on his ability to win key demographics in key states. McCain will own Obama in November and the polling data I linked to supports this.

[LynneSin]

107. HAHAHAHA - you're so funny!!

:rofl:

Yeah, whatever.

I lived in that state for 30+ year and worked on dozens of campaigns. The fact that Obama held it close AND the fact that thousands of republicans were documented as to switching parties for the primaries.

Well, enjoy your facts - you've proved absolutely ziltch except to yourself and a few Clinton people trying to make a lame case that 'Obama can't win'

[FunkyLeprechaun]

69. I'm looking forward to

working with you to get Barack Obama elected president.

I wish you could see that Hillary's finished. She has to win nearly 70% of the remaining contests just to overtake him in delegate numbers and that alone is impossible.

You also have to think about her negatives as well. She's got HIGH negatives among the Republicans and even when the Rs were lukewarm to voting for McCain, they'll come out in droves to vote for him if Hillary's the nominee.

I wanted Dean to win in 2004 and my heart was broken when he didn't win. Obama will win this and you will not regret voting for him in the GE.

Trust me.

[LawSchoolLiberal]

70. Interesting...

So, since we have "no chance" in any of the states Clinton has lost in the primary, I assume Clinton supporters in those states will agree that they can/should stay home during the GE. After all, a vote for the Democratic candidate would be thrown away, so what's the point? :sarcasm:

Better yet, Hillary can save a lot on her GE campaign: ONLY campaign and run ads in the "big" states that "count." Why waste money anywhere else? You'll agree that that's the most effective strategy to win the GE... right?

:eyes:

[info being]

73. Why do you think the mainstream media tricked us into Hillary vs. Obama?

Think about it.

[earth mom]

166. Bingo!!!

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nichomachus]

77. If Hillary were electable, she'd have more money

It's sad to say that, but in our current system, where money rules, you only have to follow the dollars. If the big donors saw Hillary as electable, her campaign warchest would be running over. She got a lot of early donations from big spenders -- Big Pharma, Big Insurance, Wall Street, etc. -- but now they see her as damaged goods.

Donors like to go with a winner, and if they saw Hillary as a winner, she would not be in debt, loaning herself money, and stiffing small businesspeople.

Follow the money.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

82. you are absolutely correct

[merbex]

85. Your diary suggests one solution: Draft Gore after the first, second, third

ballot give us no nominee.

It's looking more and more likely and if we do( only after it is clear that neither Obama or Clinton can win it in Denver) I firmly believe we'd win in a landslide.

We'd have to unite then

[LWolf]

88. They are both unelectable,

as well as having the two worst platforms on issues of any of the original 8.

Once again, democratic voters manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[TragedyandHope]

93. This argument is fundamentally flawed

The supporters of the weaker, second place candidate in this race have repeated this "theory" ad nauseum as just another in a long line of attempts to tear down the stronger, first place frontrunner, rather than support their candidate with positive reasons to vote for her. If there was an ounce of logic to this argument, then it would reasonably follow that Hillary, as a weaker second place candidate in this race, is even more unelectable.

I reject both of those notions. Whichever Democrat is chosen as the nominee WILL defeat John McCain in November.

In PA, Obama did an excellent job of narrowing a 20+ point gap down to less than half that in a state where all the odds were against him (demographics, support of the Governor and big city mayors along with their political machine, a shared media market with Clinton's "home" state and name recognition). Obama and his message connected with a broad range of voters, even those to whom conventional wisdom said he wasn't supposed to appeal. He is still decisively in the lead across the country in the race for the nomination.

Early on, when the Republicans were still in a contested primary in the same states, the record Democratic turn out dwarfed the Republican turnout by two to three times in many states. Unless record numbers of Democrats betray their party in the General Election, either Democratic candidate will be able to combine the record numbers of Democratic votes and have a great chance to do extremely well in all states, even those where they didn't fare as well against an opponent from their own party.

[zulchzulu]

96. Deep down in your heart, you know you are full of shit

Obama has won the most delegates, the most popular votes and has won 30 of 44 states. That's called being in the lead...actually it's an INSURMOUNTABLE lead. Granted, I'm using College words...still with me?

McSame will be slaughtered in the GE. By Obama. Watch. And. Learn.

[aquarius dawning]

111. Obama will lose the states that we need to win. There's plenty of data to support this

I linked to it all. Hillary does better against McCain in the states that Democrats need to do beter against McCain in. Your arrogant pontification won't change that. Obama is going to lose the GE.

[zulchzulu]

133. You have no clue what would happen if the Repigs had two Clintons to run against

Besides destroying the Democratic Party, the Clintons would completely empower the Repigs to come out in droves to vote against them.

All the charts and graphs and pie-in-the-sky bullcrap doesn't wash with that reality.

Hillary lost. Give. It. Up.

[aquarius dawning]

147. And you do?

"Besides destroying the Democratic Party, the Clintons would completely empower the Repigs to come out in droves to vote against them."
You're out of your mind if you think that isn't going to happen with Obama too.

"All the charts and graphs and pie-in-the-sky bullcrap doesn't wash with that reality."

In other words, subjective data based on professional research by professional polling corporations is less reliable than your biased gut feelings and intuition? Right. Sure.

"Hillary lost. Give. It. Up."
Actually she won and she's going to keep winning. This will go to the convention and Obama can use your gut feelings to pleade his case and Hillary can provide the aforementioned subjective data to make hers. I wonder which will be perceived to be more credible? I wonder if the super delegates are as confident as you are. From what I've heard, privately, they are quite concerned about the things I'm talking about.

[Stop Cornyn]

98. If Obama is unelectable, Hillary is far less electable. Fortunately, McCain is even less electable

than either.

It's a shame we didn't nominate a great progressive Democrat like Edwards, who would be lining up a Johnson/Goldwater style sweep, but I'll take my chances with Obama.

Frankly, there are Republicans I'd vote for before I'd vote for Hillary. Thankfully, it won't come to that because (1) Hillary won't be our nominee and (2) even if Obama were hit by a bus tomorrow and Hillary won the nomination (I think that's her most likely pathway to the nomination at this point) McCain isn't one of the few Republicans I'd vote for over Hillary so there is no danger I won't be voting for the Democratic nominee for the first time ever, but Hillary is unequivocally the worst Democratic candidate to have gotten this far in the process during my lifetime so let's be glad McCain is such a tool.

[aquarius dawning]

105. yet another poster ignoring the links in the OP which show Hillary doing better against McCain

in the states where the Democratic candidate has to do better against McCain. Go ahead and click on the links and see who is more electable.

[dpbrown]

99. Shhhhh... you can't criticize the Messiah

Half the people gloating over Senator Obama's apparent lead over Senator Clinton are Republicans promoting him to ensure a right-wing victory in November.

[TheZug]

101. Perfect example of equivocation.

[Tennessee Gal]

104. Yes, he is unelectable.

That is what I am hearing from Democrats in my area.

[LulaMay]

164. He's cooked. The RW is attacking him with ads that hurt all Dem candidates too.

[eridani]

168. No, Clinton is attacking him with ads that hurt all Dem candidates n/t

[Pryderi]

109. From Nederland:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5636559&mesg_id=5636559

A quick review of the primary contests so far demonstrates conclusively that Barack Obama has trouble beating Hillary Clinton in big swing states that are needed in order to win the general election. So far the only big state he has won is Illinois, his home state. In the vitally important swing states of Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, Obama has lost to Hillary Clinton and in some cases like Pennsylvania, lost big. The argument then goes that Obama is not the candidate that the democratic party needs in order to win in the general election come November.

I suggest that we consider this argument on it's merits. Let's look at history and see what it tells us.

1980: During the primaries, Jimmy Carter wins Ohio and Florida while Kennedy wins Pennsylvania. In the general Carter loses all three.

1984: During the primaries, Walter Mondale wins Florida and Pennsylvania while Hart wins Ohio. In the general Mondale loses all three.

1988: During the primaries, Michael Dukakis wins Florida, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. In the general he loses all three.

1992: During the primaries, Bill Clinton wins Florida, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. In the general he loses Florida.

1996: Bill Clinton runs uncontested.

2000: During the primaries, Al Gore wins Florida, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. In the general he loses Pennsylvania and Florida (*cough*).

2004: During the primaries, John Kerry wins Florida, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. In the general he loses Ohio and Florida.


So what can we glean from all this? What does history tell us about how winning a state in a primary predicts the general election result?


Not a single fucking thing.


So let's all shut the fuck up when it comes to this whole "he can't win the big states" argument, ok?

==========
I'll reiterate the point that Ohio Governor Strickland and PA Gov. Rendell will swing those states for Obama.

[JoFerret]

112. What happens when the black vote is

taken out of the equation?
(I don't mean disenfranchising - but just for the sake of taking a look at voting patterns.)

Could Obama rally his supporters for Clinton?

[OneBlueSky]

113. I think we'd better define "electable" and "unelectable" . . .

does electable mean that a candidate is capable of getting more voters to cast ballots for him/her than for the opponent in the general election? . . . or does electable mean the ability to actually win the election after the votes are tabulated? . . . these are NOT the same things . . .

the bottom line is that, in even a moderately close election, both Clinton and Obama ARE electable under the first definition, but are unelectable under the second . . . because no matter how many people actually cast their votes for either of them, once those votes are counted by Republican machines and Republican corporations, neither has a chance of winning the election . . .

"it's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes" . . .

we can thank the Democratic Congress for not taking election fraud seriously (many still don't believe it happened in 2000 and 2004) and taking the election process back from the Republican corporations that now control it . . .

[bowens43]

117. Complete bullshit.

Hillary is unelecatble, Obama has a very good chance.

[aquarius dawning]

129. You obviosuly didn't look very closely at the links in the OP. The polls support me, not you.

Obama is less likely to win the states that we need to win than Hillary. period.

[onenote]

119. so why does the party hold primaries in other states?

By the OP's logic, the Democratic nomination should be decided by holding primaries in a handful of swing states: Ohio, PA, Missouri, Florida.

What a great idea. Think of the money we'd save.

I love the fact that HRC supporters often bemoan the "disenfranchisement" of Michigan and Florida, but then argue that the primaries and caucuses in most other states are meaningless and should be disregarded.

[aquarius dawning]

128. It's simply electoral college reality. I didn't create this reality. I only pointed it out.

You can't spin it away. It's just the way it is. A Democrat has to win a couple of swing states, a couple of southern states, or a combination of both. If the Democratic candidate fails to do this, the Republican wins.

[gsaguyCLW54]

120. You are absolutely correct. Couldnt have said it better.

[Swamp Rat]

130. Woohoo! dittoheads against Obama!

[quakerboy]

131. If Obama and Clinton are both Unelectable

What do you reccomend? I guess I should vote based on who's voice is more pleasant, or who dresses better, since it makes no difference, as you assert that democrats are unelectable.

No. Better to lose with hope in my heart than give up hope and lose anyway.

[aquarius dawning]

140. Who says Hillary is unelectable?

that matters?

[quakerboy]

151. I and every voter I know personally.

From my family I can speak of 7 voters I know well. 6 are supporting Obama. 4 of those will stay home in the general if Hillary wins. One would vote for Hillary if she had no other choice, and one is undecided as to what he would do. The 7th voter is a republican who is wavering between Obama and McCain, and hates Hillary.

Of if you prefer, my observations from the guys who were in my dorm in college. Of about 20 that I have been talking to lately, they are split into approximate thirds for Obama, McCain, and staying home. The thing they all have in common are is an active dislike for Hillary. Republics particularly, in my experience, hate Hillary like there is no tomorrow. She is a guaranteed turnout getter for McCain. And that is electability down the drain.

The fact remains that no matter what reasonable measure you use in this race thus far, Barack is winning. If Hillary manages to blow him out in every singe remaining state, I might concede electibility. Otherwise, she cannot even get his autograph, much less play in the same league.

[aquarius dawning]

157. She does better against McCain where we need to do better against McCain, in the swing states.

I don't know where you're from or where the people you're talking to are from but my guess is, it isn't Ohio or Florida or any other swing state for that matter. Am I right?

[quakerboy]

161. I am from Oregon

which polling shows may just be a swing state if Hillary is the nominee.

[mnhtnbb]

132. Dems have what's known in shrink jargon as a 'death wish'.

With McCain tied to Bush, and Bush popularity below 30%, they are prepared to nominate someone
who, in polling matchups since last spring, has never been able to beat McCain by a margin
larger than the moe. It it totally nuts. Certifiable. But everyone can walk away saying, 'I voted my heart. I wanted the country to be something it's not: ready to elect someone other than a white male.'

I hope I'm wrong, but I've said from the beginning that both Hillary and Obama were the weakest general election candidates. Why do you think the media has pushed them both so hard?

[Carrieyazel]

143. They are the weakest general election candidates. Both have monumental obstacles.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aquarius dawning]

141. How refined. How eloquent. I'll have to remember that intellectual gem for future debates.

[Carrieyazel]

142. He could lose every battleground except for Wisconsin and Iowa

and possibly Colorado. He has a very hard road to win New Hampshire, Ohio, and yes, even Pennsylvania. Nevada and New Mexico are not his kind of states on paper, even though early polls show him competetive with McCain. So where else could he go? Certainly not Missouri and Virginia. Those two states are not in play this year.

[Phillycat]

144. Yes he is.

Which is why I don't support him. Although Obama supporters would like you to believe it's because I'm a racist hillbilly.

There is still time for us to avoid the ENORMOUS mistake of nominating Obama.

[provis99]

145. well, we had our chance to select Edwards, who would have won the GE

but idiot democrats decided to be politically correct or fashionable, and go with either the black or the woman, to prove how culturally liberal they are. Except now we're stuck with two candidates, Obama and Clinton, both of who will go down in a blaze of ugly McGovern-style defeat, to a right wing nutjob older than Reagan and twice as crazy.

I told you all so.

[abq e streeter]

150. Agree we blew it big time re: Edwards.

I don't necessarily agree with your reasons; I think it was that the average voter, being much less informed than the average DUer, goes by name recognition/who they see on TV , and the networks, knowing a threat to corporate power when they see it, made sure to keep Edwards as invisible as possible, and focused on our two weakest candidates. And as usual, it worked, just like the endless replaying of the Dean "scream" , which was of course, utterly irrelevant, but besides that, used a microphone that eliminated virtually all crowd noise; it actually was barely audible in the room. Again, a politician who wasn't going to play by the "rules" and so had to be destroyed. I am terrified to be agreeing with you as far as the general election; don't know if you saw my post about getting ready to get used to saying " President McCain". Every time I think the republicans can't get more vile, criminal, despicable , etc etc etc. they prove me wrong. And every time I think my party can't get more self-destructive, once again, I'm proven wrong. I pray that both of us are proven wrong in the GE , but the way it looks now, I agree that not only will McCain be elected , but by a landslide. I think I'm gonna barf...

[damonm]

146. facts tell a different story...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/national.html

Shows Obama leading or tied with McInsane in 7 of 8 polls;
Clinton only leads McInsane in 3 out of 8.

In VA, McInsane leads Obama by 8; Clinton by 16.
In OH, McInsane leads by 2; WELL within the MOE.

Your argument therefore, gets a:

[aquarius dawning]

148. No they don't. Not at all. You didn't even hear my argument.

The national polls that you and your fellow Obamaphiles are so fond of referring to are completely and utterly irrelevant if you can't win the key battleground states. period. Don't believe me? Ask Al Gore or John Kerry.

[damonm]

152. I read every word you typed -

And refuted two of your main points - the other "arguments" are laughable.

[aquarius dawning]

154. Neither you nor anybody else here has refuted shit anywhere in this thread.

Any refutation is completely in your mind, I assure you. She beat him in the primary elections in the battle ground states and polling data strongly suggestts that she will do better than him in these same states against McCain. Your refusal to face facts is what's laughable. In the swing states, McCain is more popular than Obama and Hillary is more popular than McCain.

[ProSense]

149. "Deep down in your heart, you know it's true... he only beats Hillary by 0.3 points"

Uh!

I don't even have to dig deep to call your OP BS.

[aquarius dawning]

155. Instead of posting garbage, Post some subjective data that refutes my OP. Good luck with that.

She does what he can't do in those states that we desperately need to win in the GE. The subjective data supports me, not you.

[stevenleser]

156. Official "Dumb Posit" *PLONK*

[aquarius dawning]

158. yes, your post was very dumb indeed.

It provided nothing in the way of evidence to refute a single thing that I said. It was just more of the same from a DU Obama junky.

[krkaufman]

162. Laughable. I am actually laughing. Thanks.

What silliness. Your Florida numbers show Hillary as less electable, and the Michigan numbers are woefully out-of-date.

And all this ignores the fact that GE polling, at this point, doesn't mean a thing. (Don't forget that polling showed Kerry as being able to defeat Bush in 2004.)

Obama has the elected delegates behind him, while all Clinton has is spin.

Spin away...

[LulaMay]

163. He's already hurting other Dem cndidates. RW is attacking NOW, like with the NC anti-Obama ads. BAD

[anonymous171]

172. WTF!?

[mcctatas]

173. don't feed the rabidly self-deluded...

it just leads to headaches :banghead:

[cliffordu]

174. And in the parallel universe you inhabit, that convoluted,

specious, pie in the sky "logic" might work.

But not here.

She needs to get off the stage

Sorry.

[Bonobo]

175. Your argument STARTS out hopelessly confusing the Primary with the GE.

It undermines everything you say that you cannot see the crucial difference between the two.

[bhikkhu]

177. Your argument is worthless. Deep down in my heart, I know it.

And if I wonder if perhaps my heart is not true, I look at a poll:

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Obama/Maps/Apr24.html

And, yes, Obama beats McCain in the fall, according to the electoral vote projections. And that is even without having been confirmed as our nominee. So McCain is projected to lose the race, even before the campaign begins...

[Catherina]

178. And yet Hillary is getting her ass whooped. Go figure n/t

[HuffleClaw]

179. there's a REASON the media selected him for 'sainthood'

and it sure as hell wasn't because they thought he had a chance of winning

[smiley_glad_hands]

181. Yeah yeah yeah, we know, he's black and unelectable.

What does that say about you?