We may not heal as a party because of the propaganda by the Clintons and their surrogates.

[madfloridian]

I would say lies, but I do hate to put that in a subject line. Her campaign has slyly changed the rules and the landscape. I must give them credit, they have done a magnificent job on it. Totally thorough, and totally amazing.

Many people now spout these points with ease. No problem, just make stuff up, say it often enough...and it becomes truth to the ill-informed.

It has gone so far that a Democratic Florida senator who sits on important congressional committees has threatened the DNC that Floridians may not vote for the Democrat in November.

Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) warned the Democratic National Committee (DNC) Thursday that it is facing the “biggest train wreck you’ve ever seen” if a standoff is not resolved over his state’s pledged delegates to the party’s presidential nominating convention.

“If they go to the Democratic Convention and stiff-arm the Florida delegations, how in the world do you think Floridians are going to support the Democratic nominee on Nov. 4?” Nelson told reporters Thursday. “It’s in everybody’s interest to find a solution to this problem.”

Now to those four pieces of propaganda that are so dangerous for our party.

Propaganda piece #1: The DNC broke the rules by taking away all of Florida's delegates, all of Michigan's delegates.

Truth #1: That is just made up. The DNC has an automatic sanction of 50% which kicks in at once when rules are broken. They have the option of taking more delegates away. They did. Florida went before the committee and did not tell the truth. All their delegates were stripped then. They had 30 days to fix things, and they did not. It was Florida's own choice to break the rules.

Under the DNC delegate selection rules, if a state party’s plan violates the rule with respect to timing, the number of its pledged delegates—those delegates awarded proportionally to candidates based on the primary or caucus results—is automatically reduced 50%(without any action by the RBC or DNC); no member of the DNC can attend the Convention as a delegate; no Member of Congress can attend the Convention as a delegate; and if applicable, the state’s Democratic governor can not attend the Convention as a delegate. In addition, any presidential candidate who campaigns in the state for the event in violation of the rules cannot receive any pledged delegates from that state. In addition to these automatic sanctions, the DNC
RBC has authority under the rules to impose additional sanctions, including further reductions in the state’s delegation.

I put that one first because it is causing the most anger toward the party by Clinton supporters. It is a destructive lie. It is causing unwarranted anger, and there may be no healing from this first lie.

The anger toward the DNC, the blame put there has cost fundraising and cut down on much they could have done for the whole party's rebuilding.

Propaganda piece #2: The nominee is chosen by popular vote or even by electoral votes. Delegates don't matter.

Truth #2: I have found this just unbelievable that people were falling for this. The Democratic nominee is chosen by delegates. The popular vote is not used. The electoral vote is in the general election.

Propaganda piece #3: Obama can not carry the states needed to win.

Truth #3: The strategy of carrying only a few big states is the old way of doing things. It is called the 18 state strategy by many. It means concentrating on a few big states, ignoring the rest of the states, and praying for the best. It is the exact opposite of the 50 state strategy.

Propaganda piece #4: Florida and Michigan were victims.

Truth #4: No, they were complicit in breaking the rules and moving the primaries ahead of February 5th. The Democratic Michigan governor did not have to sign the bill if she opposed it. The Democrats in the Florida legislature knew they only had to act in good faith to keep their delegates.

They did not have to win against the GOP, they only had to show good faith. Instead they voted 115 to 1 and made excuses.

In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state’s delegation shall not be reduced. The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes...."

The "good faith" clause of the rules gave both states an out they did not choose to use.

Those four pieces of propaganda are dividing our party. The Clinton campaign has so convinced her supporters of those things that the effort to get those points out can be called a most effective propaganda campaign.

[jgraz]

1. The goal is not to heal, the goal is to put John McCain in the White House

Bill Nelson seems perfectly fine with that. After all, he has more in common with McCain than he does with most Democrats.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

64. Yep.

Clinton McCain

[Raine]

98. That's been the goal ever since Hillary

became "evitable". :-(

[BlooInBloo]

2. We'll heal just fine and be stronger as soon as the cancer is excised, and realignent is completed.

[BlueCaliDem]

6. Yep. I'll write-in Obama's name in the GE...

...and then me and my 14 friends are going to register ourselves as Independents, leaving the Democratic Party for good.

Then our healing will begin and we'll be stronger for it.

[PoliticalAmazon]

61. This is a very effective plan. It is one way to force new Dem Party leadership...

...But the key is getting as many Democrats as possible to leave the party in the short period of time. That is something the DNC cannot spin away, like they did when the liberal heart and soul of our party, after a decade of being ignored by the DNC and Dem Party leadership, left to form the Greens.

The DNC and Dem Party leadership diligently worked to demonize them as "unstable" and "fringe," and soon simply being a member of the Green Party meant you were a loon.

The simple fact is, however, that the Dems who left to form the Greens were the same people who had been Democratic Party loyalists before they created their own third party, and they weren't considered "fringe" then, when they were voting for Democratic candidates.

If enough Democrats left at once, especially if each person wrote a letter to their local media and national media outlets explaining why they left, it would be something that the Dem Party could not spin away. It would be a clear vote of "no confidence" in Dem leadership. The DNC would be forced to replace its leadership with more party-member-responsive representatives, or risk losing even more voters. The new leadership would have to be more party-member-responsive, otherwise they would also risk losing more voters.

The reason why losing a large bloc of voters at once is important is because in D.C. the power a person or organization has depends on the voting bloc they control. For instance, when Ralphie Reed ran the Christian Coalition, the CC's founder, Pat Robertson, could walk into any GOP reps' office in D.C. and demand to be seen, and would be seen. However, since the Christian Coalition has weakened to irrelevancy, Robertson no longer has that power. It has been taken over by James Dobson and his Focus on the Family.

If an organization or person loses their control over a voting bloc, their worth and value to lobbyists and other power brokers plummets, and their power also plummets.

So, your plan is a good one. I've been advocating the same thing for four years, and with all of us working together, we can change the Democratic Party back to being responsive to the people who put and keep them in power: the Democratic Party voters.

[Mme. Defarge]

129. Moi aussi!

I will not rubber stamp a one-party system.

[Catherina]

43. That's what I was going to post. We'll be just fine

Anyone who can't get with a better new direction is dead, constrictive weight.

If we can only have two parties in this country, let one of them be decent enough to give people hope again.

[Hugabear]

3. Excellent points, K&R! Let's see them try to rebut these

It's pretty common knowledge here in Florida that our Democrats were quite complicit in moving the primary up in violation of the rules. It's been rather hilarious to watch their righteous indignation now, trying to claim that they were railroaded by the GOP majority. They didn't even fucking try.

[leftstreet]

4. K&R

[PoliticalAmazon]

5. Let's keep focused on the next state elections. Obama supporters need to move forward...

....and effect change where we can and when we can. It's Hillary adn her supporters who wallow in the past. We look to the future and change.

We can do nothing about Hillary and her Bush/Rove politics. But we an work to get Obama elected as the Dem candidate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5641608&mesg_id=5641608

[madfloridian]

8. I can do something about pointing out propaganda.

We all should do that.

It is wrong for a presidential candidate to try to break the party apart like that.

[PoliticalAmazon]

63. ITA. It's our job to fight Hillary's Bush/Rove tactics, but...

...we also have to start organizing for the next race.

[Dr.Phool]

116. Here's a good place to start on the state level.

She's a former member of the New Hampshire house, Alderman, Board of Education. Since moving to Florida, he's worked tirelessly to elect Democrats, and is strongly opposed to the war.

She's running against an incumbent good ol' boy, Charlie Dean.

She deserves and needs support, money and help.


http://suzanfranksforfloridasenate.com/ or

www.suzanfranks.com

[MADem]

7. We may not heal as a party because of the propaganda by the Obama Team and their surrogates.

See how stupid that subject line is? That stupid shoe doesn't fit on EITHER foot.

What's this WE shit?

Maybe you, along with a small group of weak-minded, crybaby fools, won't "heal" but that's your problem.

Tough fights make for tough candidates.

Get over it.

And as for FL, like it, or not, if they don't take care of FL in some fashion, it's McCain's for the taking. And it's a big prize.

[madfloridian]

13. See....another "threat" using FL. That is what I mean.

She is using those two states as tools to win.

[MADem]

14. It isn't a THREAT, though. FL has a right to be accomodated in some fashion.

As does MI. What the fashion is, is up to the party leadership.

It's not about the party bosses in those states, it's about the voters.

So some arrangements must be made for them.

Disenfranchise those FL voters and they WILL go GOP. You may not think so, but that is the truth. It's a battleground state on a good day--it'll be a landslide state for the GOP if the Democrats wipe their asses on them.

Not a threat, a promise. Keep the blinders securely fastened if you don't want to see that.

[madfloridian]

17. That's what I said....the propaganda worked well.

.

[MADem]

18. Keep whining. If anyone's pushing "propaganda" it's you, with your "threat" tales. NT

[madfloridian]

20. Facts, no whining.

Sorry you don't like what I say.

[MADem]

21. Facts right back atcha! NT

[madfloridian]

25. You are just calling names. You present no facts at all. I posted facts. You called me names.

That is your right.

[MADem]

39. I did not call you names. I pointed out that you are whining. I noted your BEHAVIOR.

Now, that's a fact.

[madfloridian]

41. I am stating facts, not whining.

And no one has disputed them yet.

That is my point. People are angry I posted them, but they can't dispute them.

[MADem]

54. "We may not heal" is not a fact. It's a whining opinion. NT

[madfloridian]

57. You are really stuck on the word "whining."

.

[MADem]

69. If you'd stop doing it, maybe I'd get off the word. NT

[papau]

51. the "facts" you present are your pro-Obama opinions/slanted view - many feel

Obama playing the race card to cxhange the subject from her NH win was what started us on this path.

[madfloridian]

53. You are quoting Bill Clinton.

He said that yesterday, then he said he didn't say it?

[demo dutch]

75. No it's a hidden agenda!! you really should disclose you're an Obama supporter!

You don't give a rat's ass about the integrity of the voter!

[madfloridian]

79. Oh, dear God....grow up.

This is about all of us.

[acmavm]

96. There is no 'US'. I generally troll through these pitiful threads that lecture

everyone who doesn't think that Obama is the answer to the world's ills and laugh. But this one is frigging ridiculous.

Obama supporters just might have ensured that there will maybe never be another 'US' again. You think everyone's votes belong to you. If someone doesn't like your candidate, they're a racist of course. And the constant demand that the other candidate quit is an act of arrogance unparalelled in American politics. The frigging primary is in November. Until then the campaign is open for both candidates. Of course since we're stuck with the two worst candidates out of the whole damn bunch that originally threw their hats into the ring, we're pretty screwed. But according to Obamites, Hillary's supporter's owe you. They have no right to support their candidate because Obamites SAY SO. And they say so as nastily as they can. Every chance they get.

A lot of Obama supporters are fools. Absolute raving fools. The resentment they are causing is amazing. They can't win without a united party, but they have done everything they possibly can to ensure that may never happen again.

And the resentment felt against Florida and Michigan is because they didn't go for Obama. So, you want them excluded from the convention. You think that there won't be repurcussions? Do you not think that you are going to get the other sides votes just because you think that you should? Do you think if you demand loud and long enough it'll work? Are you another one who thinks that my vote is really yours to command?

I sometimes think that in some cases people don't dislike Obama as much as they do his rude and arrogant supporters. Now me, I hate 'em both.

[demo dutch]

100. Not to be picky but the frigging GE is in November, for the rest I agree

[acmavm]

103. You are SO right. The lesson here is NEVER post when someone's pissed q

you off. Sometimes the fingers get away from you.

[madfloridian]

109. Can you rebut the 4 pieces of propaganda? Please do.

[acmavm]

158. Knock it off. You have some long-winded self-aggrandizing waste of time

on this site every damn day making claims about the election, how we're all DOOMED, DOOMED I TELL YA, if you boy Barrie isn't given the nod.

But I will tell you, another person I know came for dinner last night. She said "If that guy gets the nomination, I'm just not voting. He's ruined the democratic party and he's nothing but a liar." That makes four people. FOUR LIFE-LONG DEMS THAT I KNOW who have had it because they don't like your candidate and they detest him for his arrogant lying.

Yep, there is no US. And before you start telling people to 'back up' anything you need to do a little of it yourself.

[acmavm]

160. What propaganda? Take a look around you. People are sick

and tired of this election.

[madfloridian]

108. This post was about the Clinton's propaganda. Can you rebut the four items?

Or would you rather attack the rest of the party.

There should be an us. If there is not an us, we give it back to the GOP for our petty stuff.

I posted 4 things that Hillary has changed in the rules all by herself.

Can you discuss them?

BTW, that is one of the ugliest posts I have seen here.

[Moochy]

170. Bullshit

she's quoting people, with links. You are just parroting the talking points.

Worthless.

[SeaLyons]

15. the people in FL

voted for Hillary. She won the vote there overwhelmingly. They voted even knowing it might not count. Why do you insist on posting and saying things that are in favor of disenfranchising FL?

I know all your arguments....no need to reply. Just had to get this off my chest. She won FL and she deserves those votes, and before it's over, she will get them.

Go Hillary!!

[PoliticalAmazon]

62. The people of FL need to get an accountable voting system. THEN...

...they can start whining about their votes--which they knew wouldn't count when they cast them--not being illegally counted.

Florida voters have been complacent in insisting on accountable voting, and Florida has one of the worst records of blatant voter fraud.

It's hard to take someone's comment about disenfranchisement seriously when they vote the same damned people every year into power, the same people who have refused to make Florida's voting system fraud-free.

[demo dutch]

78. For your info along with passing the Primary date change was a paper

verification voting bill attached!

[madfloridian]

80. That was just to sweeten the deal...the Dems went along with it.

They were not under any pressure at all.

[demo dutch]

101. Of course they went along with it, it would be an outrage if they didn't pass the paper trail!

and in the process they screwed the voter! Mad, you can "spin" this any which way you want, but you're not going to change my opinion (and the voters in FL) about how I feel about the party bosses both local and national who hold great discretion over important decisions as who gets to vote, (closed primaries) and who gets counted. It's an archaic system it's NOT a democracy and it's an outrage!

As it is, the Constitution does not specifically affirm the right to vote. There are virtually no election administration standards, and there is mass disenfranchisement at each election. Even the Supreme Court ruled in the Bush v. Gore case in 2000 that citizens do not have the right to vote for electors for president. Furthermore the constitution doesn't mentioned anything about parties. You do really believe that the primary results mean anything as long a your candidate wins, and it doesn't matter that 1 million plus voters are disenfranchised because the "parties" decided it so?

This country has once again fallen behind the rest of the world when it comes to voting. What a fucking joke! We have the nerve to tell other countries how to run their elections, meanwhile the rest of the world can once again conclude that the US does not count its citizen's votes at election time. Is it any wonder this country has the lowest voter turnout in the western world!

We need change desperately, and do away with this nonsense! and it will take the destruction of the Dem party after this election and it will take a constitutional amendment to fix this.

What would Thomas Jefferson (and Madison and Hamilton and Washington) say about this nonsense today? Seems to me you don't really care!

[me b zola]

102. The Clintons have had 20 years to build a political machine in FL

--just like PA. Obama cut significantly into the lead that Clinton had in PA by being able to campaign there. He would have done the same--or better--if would have been able to campaign in FL.

[DemVet]

175. That's politics....all is fair.

[dionysus]

23. "Maybe you, along with a small group of weak-minded, crybaby fools, won't "heal" but that's your pr"

classy, just like the clintons... :puke:

[MADem]

183. If you don't want to associate YOURSELF with that "small group," DON'T.

I specifically didn't include you in that group--in fact, I DELIBERATELY separated you out from them.

But then, you chose not to read FOR COMPREHENSION what I wrote, and instead, you CHOSE to take offense and drag out the vomitous little icon to express your earnest displeasure.

You should direct your displeasure at yourself, for displaying such sloppy reading skills.

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't cram your bigass foot in it. Then you don't have to vomit and cry. Capisce?

[smiley_glad_hands]

81. Factually, She is dividing the party with her rovian tactics.

Like it or not, that is a fact.

[MADem]

184. No, it isn't a fact. It is your disordered opinion, that you've lifted as a talking point from

other like-minded, angry scolds who are frightened that Obama doesn't have the stamina to go the distance, and consequently are frantically crying "End it NOW!!!" like it's an amputation without anaesthesia or a difficult childbirth.

Sorry, your opinion doesn't hold sway. The slog goes on. It's good for Democracy. When we have a winner, that winner will actually BE a winner--not the one left after the other was shoved off the stage by a bunch of angry children with sharp sticks and an overabundance of bad attitude.

[rockymountaindem]

9. What confuses me is that people think we can win Florida in November

Judging by the outcome of the past two Presidential elections, I think there are other places where our resources would be better spent. This whole "if we don't seat the delegates then we can kiss Florida goodbye" argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me because I think pinning our hopes on Florida is a huge mistake, especially if McCain chooses Gov. Crist as his running mate.

[madfloridian]

11. They will use that in the fall if Obama is the nominee.

A Democrat can not win Florida yet, not for president. But this talking point is handy to blame party rules in the fall.

[Clintonista2]

12. Excuse me?

We won Florida in 2000.

[MADem]

16. Well, Gore managed it. The Supremes stole it from him. NT

[SOS]

105. The Democrats did not receive Florida's electoral votes in

1968, 1972, 1980, 1984, 1988, 1992, 2000* or 2004.

[DJ13]

10. If the Clintons succeed, I bet 20% (or more) Dems will leave the party

I know I would no longer consider the Democratic party anything more than an extension of the GOP if she wins, so I would re register as an Independant.

[CatnHat]

19. Nothing like

sour grapes. Clinton is the better candidate. Get over it.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

38. your opinion, if she really were the best candidate

she would currently be leading as well as having a nice amount of funds to use, instead she is trailing in almost all areas and has her campaign in debt(How can she be a better candidate when she can't even win over an inexperienced wimpy empty-suit that only sprout slogans)

Sidenote: I do not view Obama as the above, but its some of the most common things i hear about him from Hillary supporters which makes the claim she is the better candidate all the more funny to me since she can't beat somebody 'that' bad if using their words

[Bake]

67. And if Obama were all that, he'd have closed the deal long ago.

But he hasn't. Dispute THAT. But, but, the mathematics, you say. It's impossible, you say. Tell me about MATH when Obama gets to 2025. Not before then.

Bake

[BornBlue]

93. I'll dispute that,

If she were all that, it would have been over on Super Tuesday. It's so funny to me how so many Clinton supporters forget she was the inevitable candidate, had no plan on this going on after February 5th. But NOW she is the come-back kid, the tenacious fighter, the best choice.

No math gets either of them to 2025 without the supers, but he is CLOSER.

She never closed the deal against the unknown guy from Illinois, so why is he expected to easily close the deal against a woman who is from like 5 states(born in IL, summer home in PA, first lady of AR, Senator from NY, voter register in TX), and has been on the national scene for the last 15 years?

Take a clue from us in IL, we don't want her, that's why we voted overwhelmingly against her.

[Bake]

94. Closer? Like in horseshoes?

Almost ain't good enough. Nobody gets across the finish line without the supers. At least you admit that much.

Bake

[BornBlue]

95. Right, closer, as in he does not need as many.

We all know that no one gets the nom with out the supers, but thanks for trying to insult me. re: at least you admit that.

Funny how you pick that one little thing to respond to.

Not the fact that Hillary never closed against an unknown, but we can all harp on Obama for not being able to close against the weak little girl.

I say I did dispute that!! :party:

[madfloridian]

97. No, she really is not a good candidate at all.

She is annoying and grates on the nerves. She uses right wing talking points.

[Demeter]

22. Hillary Will Do a Lieberman

and then they can run together in 2012.

[liberaldem4ever]

24. Very good post-K&R

This was supposed to be the year that the Democratic party would make big gains in Congress, take back the White House and ensure no more Right Wingers were appointed to the Supreme Court. Now all of that is in jeopardy because HRC couldn't put the American people ahead of her ambition. Thanks a lot Hillary. :mad:

[madfloridian]

26. Clinton wrongly claiming "popular vote win" today. First Read corrects her.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/23/936250.aspx

"From NBC's Domenico Montanaro
After Clinton's victory last night, the latest out of Clinton camp is that Clinton has pulled ahead of Obama in the popular vote. Of course, as we noted in First Thoughts, this can only be done by including Florida and Michigan, which is what the Clinton campaign has done.
Coming across journalists desks this morning was the following e-mail from Phil Singer at Clinton camp with the subject, "More People Have Voted For Hillary Than Any Other Candidate":

"After last night's decisive victory in Pennsylvania, more people have voted for Hillary than any other candidate, including Sen. Obama. Estimates vary slightly, but according to Real Clear Politics, Hillary has received 15,095,663 votes to Sen. Obama's 14,973,720, a margin of more than 120,000 votes. ABC News reported this morning that 'Clinton has pulled ahead of Obama' in the popular vote. This count includes certified vote totals in Florida and Michigan."

ABC's The Note reported this morning, however, similarly to what we wrote in First Thoughts: "By one (rightly disputed) metric -- the popular vote, including Florida and Michigan -- Clinton has pulled ahead of Obama. But without the rogue states, Obama is still up by 500,000 -- and if you can find another objective measurement by which she's in the lead, let us know."

RealClearPolitics keeps a popular vote tally, which breaks down the totals. It has a line also factoring in Michigan, which has an asterisk.

What we wrote: "That new popular vote total (not counting FL or MI) has Obama leading Clinton, 49%-47%. For those keeping score, that's a difference of 483,129. ... So those remaining contests, per this conservative projection, bring Obama’s popular vote lead to 515,629. If you add Florida, that gives Clinton almost another 300,000 more. So you if you include the Sunshine State, Obama will still lead her by about 215,000 popular votes. No wonder Clinton herself decided to start talking about Michigan again, because she can't "win" the popular vote without it. The problem: Even many Clinton supporters believe it’s not a valid measurement."

[purji]

28. I have asked this a few times today

maybe you can help me.
When Hillary talks about the Mi vote,is she saying only her votes count and not the uncommitted votes.( over 200,000 I believe)If uncommitted votes aren't counted at all I don't see how she can claim any concern for voters . She will be in effect disenfranchising me.

you always seem to know whats really going on so I thought I should ask you.

[madfloridian]

29. I would say you have it about right.

Notice she is concentrating on the popular vote, which is not the way we choose our nominee.

And it does appear to be picking and choosing.

It is mostly about her campaign.

[madfloridian]

27. Just saw Terry McAuliffe on TV...it was sad to watch him.

He was spinning the "popular vote" theme shamelessly. The anchor watched him with her head nearly popping open, trying to calm him.

This is sad.

[Kurovski]

36. I think it is.

It's sad for Democracy. The Money Party has worked very hard to get us to this fractured state.

There is so much cognitive dissonance going on with us Dems. I never thought there would be this much denial of reality. We've all gone a little nuts. At least we still have a ways to go to match the full-blown insanity of the Right wing. Maybe that's the goal? Turn us all into "I believe everything I'm told" tribal members.

K&R

[madfloridian]

37. I got up today so angry. The media is feeding on her big "win"

I feel like we are in the middle of a bad dream.

[bluesbassman]

147. No, a bad dream was 2000 and 2004.

There is no doubt that you dislike Clinton. That is your right, just as it is the right of others to dislike Obama. However, the goal of all of us in the party should be to put a Democrat in the Whitehouse come November. Do you really believe that continued assertion that the party will be irreparably harmed by Clinton and her supporters is going to help achieve that?

[Bette Noir]

148. The continued media spin

is to keep viewership high. It's like declaring "Storm Watch!" when there's a drizzle likely. Clinton's "Big Win!" in PA was one state, a gain of maybe 15 delegates. She's not substantially closer to the nomination, unless she can convince a big majority of supers to overturn the pledged delegates. If that happens, the Dems won't win the Presidency for another 30-50 years, maybe never. It could be over for the party. We proud liberals (I've never been ashamed of that label) will take our marbles and go somewhere else.

[stillcool]

30. It is disheartening to see so many..

lies spewed. What really gets me is watching supposed "Democrats" gleefully participating in the attempt to propagate some of the most vile sentiments in our society. "The truth shall set you free"..if you can find it.

[RiverStone]

31. If Obama wins with the Super D's joining the pledged D's...

We will heal and we will win the GE.

If Hillary works the SuperD's into pulling of a coup, healing will be a long and tedious process.

IMO, we would lose the GE and very possibly our majority on The Hill.

Dems already know what a stolen election feels like; but a stolen nomination within the party would effect our base for a generation. More people would walk away from the party in disgust then could ever be brought back in. And as grim as it sounds, I really don't think I am over exaggerating.

[madfloridian]

35. I agree...a stolen nomination could kill the party.

It is quite possible it could happen.

[Justitia]

40. Political Suicide, but that certainly wouldn't stop the Clintons from doing it. -eom

[Kurovski]

59. I now begin to wonder if that isn't their role.

Fracture the party, recreate it to better represent Republican economic goals.

As Michael Collins says "The Money Party".

[JVS]

32. I guess that means 4 years of McCain. So be it. We can't stop fighting these bastards

[stillcool]

33. Madfloridian....I have a question...

about the turnout in the Democratic Primary in Florida. In this first article from August of last year, Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said that Florida had over 4 million registered Democrats. In the second article it is stated that 1.7 million democrats participated in the primary. Is 1.7 out of 4 million + an unprecedented turnout?

Posted: August 27, 2007, 6:05 PM ET
DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5.
The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.

"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------

The DNC's move may have repercussions beyond Florida as other state legislatures consider disregarding the Feb. 5 cutoff. Last week, Michigan's state Senate voted to hold its primary on Jan. 15. The state's House is expected to approve the earlier date as well.

The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.

Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said this option would be expensive -- as much as $8 million -- and potentially undoable. Another option would be to challenge the ruling in court.

"We do represent, standing here, a lot of Democrats in the state of Florida -- over 4 million," Thurman said, according to the New York Times. "This is emotional for Florida. And it should be."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.

Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar... Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.

As it has become clear that the delegate race will be very close, politicians in the Democratic party are discussing the implications of the DNC pledge, and whether it would be wise to seat the delegates after all, rather than risk offending these important states that could be influential in the November election.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

[madfloridian]

34. Frankly I am not sure of the figures....high turnout likely due to tax amendment

There were Democrats like hubby and me who wanted to vote against it because of the danger it posed to Florida. But there was an equal number of Dems here who wanted the lower taxes.

The party here did not stand up against the tax bill that much at all.

So many were voting on that issue alone.

Oops just realized you were asking about MI votes. And I don't know that many of the details there.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

46. unprecedented in that DEM turnout was lower than GOP turnought

so that makes no sense if people thought their vote was counting for the Democratic primary.

[madfloridian]

49. Good point. Good chart.

:hi:

[stillcool]

50. It's that numbers thing again..

I can't get it to work!

[madrchsod]

42. it will be up to obama to" heal" florida and michigan

he will get no help from either state democratic parties....

[Catherina]

44. We'll heal Madfloridian. There's a Doctor in charge of this operation!

He may have to cut away from dead tissue but that's how it goes. The healthy cells will take over from there.

:hi:

[madfloridian]

45. Ed Schultz is doing the "popular vote" thingy.

He said the new math is that the old math does not count.

[Auntie Bush]

47. We may not heal as a party because Obama divided us by

having his supporters accuse the Clintons of being racist. (What a joke and lie if there ever was) That's how he won 90% of the black vote. That's what fractured our party. It was also fractured by Obama supporters throwing hateful RW talking points about the Clintons thus starting this hate fest.

[madfloridian]

48. You have changed.

A whole lot.

[stillcool]

52. Not how I remember it....

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail
A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out."
"Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."


Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html

Kerrey Apologizes to Obama Over Remark
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4031436
Kerrey's mention of Obama's middle name and his Muslim roots raised eyebrows because they are also used as part of a smear campaign on the Internet that falsely suggests Obama is a Muslim who wants to bring jihad to the United States. Obama is a Christian.

The Clinton campaign has already fired two volunteer county coordinators in Iowa for forwarding hoax e-mails with the debunked claim. Last week, a national Clinton campaign co-chairman resigned for raising questions about whether Obama's teenage drug use could be used against him, so Kerrey's comments raised questions about whether the Clinton campaign might be using another high-profile surrogate to smear Obama.

Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs

Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance
By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008

The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's Super Tuesday primary, which she won.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.

On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says.
Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged
comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)

Source: Newsday
Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 12:04 pm
http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=30629&cat=5
Barack Obama Accepts Apology From Hillary Clinton
Washington D.C. 12/15/2007 09:17 AM GMT (FINDITT)

Hillary Clinton went straight to Barack Obama with an apology following a staffer's remarks about any skeletons that may be lurking in Obama's closet, pointing out that she had accepted the staffer's resignation over the disparaging remarks. Obama accepted her at her word, according to his campaign staff, and is moving on without letting it interrupt his campaign plans.

Obama is currently leading the polls in Iowa and New Hampshire, the two early primary states often considered key to the process, according to numbers at usaelectionpolls.com, but on a national level Clinton still holds a huge lead. The most recently posted poll results show Obama with 31 percent of the probable voters in New Hampshire backing him with 29 percent showing support for Clinton.

Clinton Camp Pushes O-Bomber Links: Ignores Her Own Radical Ties
By: Justin Rood

ABC News - The Hillary Clinton campaign pushed to reporters today stories about Barack Obama and his ties to former members of a radical domestic terrorist group -- but did not note that as president, Clinton's husband pardoned more than a dozen convicted violent radicals, including a member of the same group mentioned in the Obama stories.

"Wonder what the Republicans will do with this issue," mused Clinton spokesman Phil Singer in one e-mail to the media, containing a New York Sun article reporting a $200 contribution from William Ayers, a founding member of the 1970s group Weather Underground, to Obama in 2001.

In a separate e-mail, Singer forwarded an article from the Politico newspaper reporting on a 1995 event at a private home that brought Obama together with Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, another member of the radical group.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html
Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.
Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
By Julie Bosman

KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34

COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.
------------------

Johnson's comments and remarks by both Clintons before the New Hampshire primary last week had alarmed several black leaders and drew a rebuke from Obama and his top aides.

It began when Hillary Clinton gave an interview in which she seemed to discount King's role in the civil rights movement. Later, former President Clinton cast aspects of Obama's candidacy as a "fairy tale."

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?pid=278988
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET
The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis.
----------
Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused.

CLINTON ALLIES SUPPRESS THE VOTE IN NEVADA...
On Meet the Press on Sunday, Hillary Clinton said her campaign had nothing to do with a lawsuit--written about by Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel--that threatens to prevent thousands of workers from voting in the Nevada caucus on Saturday.
Back in March, the Nevada Democratic Party agreed to set up caucus locations on the Vegas strip for low-income shift workers, many of them members of the state's influential Culinary Union, who commute long distances to work and wouldn't be able to get home in time to caucus. It was an uncontroversial idea until the Culinary Union endorsed Barack Obama and the Nevada State Education Association, whose top officials support Clinton, sued to shut down the caucus sites.
The Clinton camp played dumb until yesterday, when President Clinton came out in favor of the lawsuit.

Clinton's comments drew a heated response from D. Taylor, the head of Nevada's Culinary Union, on MSNBC's Hardball. "He is in support of disenfranchising thousands upon thousands of workers, not even just our members," Taylor said of Clinton. "The teachers union is just being used here. We understand that This is the Clinton campaign. They tried to disenfranchise students in Iowa. Now they're trying to
disenfranchise people here in Nevada, who are union members and people of color and women."
Rank-and-file members of Nevada's teachers union also come out against the lawsuit filed by their leadership. "We never thought our union and Senator Clinton would put politics ahead of what's right for our students, but that's exactly what they're doing," the letter stated. "As teachers, and proud Democrats, we hope they will drop this undemocratic lawsuit and help all Nevadans caucus, no matter which candidate they support."
The lawsuit's opponents make a persuasive point. Creating obstacles to voting is what the GOP does to Democrats, not what Democrats should be doing to other Democrats.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/a-feisty-bill-clinton-defends-nevada-lawsuit/
Link for lawsuit: http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[madfloridian]

55. You are prepared with research, not just spin. Thanks.

:hi:

[smiley_glad_hands]

86. Only people I see spout RW talking points are Hill and her supporters. eom

[Auntie Bush]

114. Where were you when all the Monica, stained blue dress, Bill's penis,

Paula Jones, rape, theft and murder of Vince Foster were brought up here 24/7? Weren't they RW talking points? Do nice polite Dems talk like that to each other? And you wonder why I'm annoyed at all those traitorous Dems for repeating that crap. I guess you were having a long Rumpelstiltskin nap when that was going on...or a very selective memory.

[smiley_glad_hands]

123. I would agree that they were traitorous dems.

Which is why what Hill is doing now isn't any better than what they did to her.

[Auntie Bush]

132. Sorry, but I don't see where there is any comparison.

What has Hillary done that is so awful?

[smiley_glad_hands]

134. How about using right wing memes and frames to attack Obama, progressives, and other dems?

She's been using the same tactics that repugs have been using for the past 30 years against the Democratic Party.

[Auntie Bush]

138. Were you around for any other primaries?

You don't seem to understand what it's like to try and beat your opponent while they hurl millions of dollars at TV/GE to defeat you.

[smiley_glad_hands]

139. I've been around for quite sometime, and I've never seen a dem act this way. eom

[Auntie Bush]

172. I guess you are unfortunately just another blind, unthinking O supporter

who can't see reality because his eyes and ears are covered. Sorry about that! Why don't you join us white trash? Then you could think more objectively.

[LWolf]

56. I think the divide goes well beyond HRC.

The whole primary process has been bankrupt, and Obama, his campaign, and his campaigners are also responsible for their part.

Truly, though, the ugly, petty, destructive nature of both campaigns are simply the dying throes of a party already divided beyond redemption. This primary is more a symptom of the divide, not the source.

[madfloridian]

58. Actually I disagree that Obama has contributed like Hillary has

to the divisiveness. She has gone out of her way to bring up things from decades ago to smear him.

There is lots the Obama campaign could bring up but just today Axelrod said they would not touch some of the issues of the 90s.

[Zodiak]

60. They are trying to spread the blame around.

It is a standard Bush tactic....."But the Dems did it, too!"

I see no evidence of Obama injecting hate and petty politics into this primary. I have asked for links of Obama hate and get silence as my answer. It is just a meme to spread the blame around and confuse people that their lying eyes are deceiving them.

[madfloridian]

66. I agree.

The Clinton campaign is trying to destroy the party rules, the party leadership, and the other candidate.

That is more than just politics.

[LWolf]

68. Not the same way, but just as divisive nevertheless.

Allowing homophobes to campaign for him is divisive.

Allowing his pastor to campaign for him from the pulpit of his church is divisive.

Treating republicans with more respect than the liberal left is divisive.

There's more, but that's enough to make my point.

They are both divisive.

I'll hold out for a brokered convention, and see if a candidate can be nominated that CAN unify the party.

I don't believe it will be either of the current two.

[JVS]

76. "Treating republicans with more respect than the liberal left is divisive."

You're thinking of Hillary there

[LWolf]

111. I know whom I'm thinking of, thanks.

It's Obama.

Remember his effusive praise for Reagan, for the "fundamentally different path" than the "excesses" of the 60s and 70s?

:puke:

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/31204.html

[SoCalDem]

65. truth # 3...for simpletons

Mom says "who wants PIE?"

both of her kids say "I do I do"

but mom has TWO pies...1 apple & 1 cherry

one kid picks apple, the other picks cherry..

had Mom had ONLY apple, each kid would have happily had a piece of apple pie..

[Texas Hill Country]

70. this is so overblown...

[madfloridian]

82. Read each of the four points and rebut them. Please do.

No one has done that yet.

[smiley_glad_hands]

89. No need to let those pesky rules get in your way, rules are so overblown. eom

[GetTheRightVote]

71. I am from Florida and I for one am tired of their lies and deceitful ways

They think they are better then other states and deserve better treatment yet this state has screwed up almost every election they have had in the last decade. Why give them anymore room to do so in this election process.

They broke the rules now they must pay the price for doing so, it is just that simple. Believe me when I tell you that election in my state are so f--k up I do not believe we will ever get it right in the near future. There is just to much in house fighting between the Dems and Repubs for anything out of this state to be real or true. So much voter repression and exclusion I can not tell you of all the games they play down here, it is unreal, truly unreal but do not depend on this state, it is totally screwed up.

[Bake]

72. Glad you've already got your scapegoat for Obama's GE defeat.

Like we couldn't see that one coming a mile away.

Bake

[demo dutch]

73. Oh please Mad , you really are showing your true colors!!!! dismissing millions of voters

will train wreak the Democratic party in Nov., every expert agrees on that! You really should stop being disingenuous and disclose that you have a hidden agenda because your an Obama supporter. Parties yield way too much power, they're not even in the constitution. Fairvote.org has the right idea!

[madfloridian]

83. I think you are giving me way too much power there, Dutch.

Talk about overreacting?

[smiley_glad_hands]

90. Fl & Mi dismissed their own voters. eom

[IndianaJones]

74. at least we have your uniting drivel to pull us together. nt.

[madfloridian]

84. Can you rebut the 4 pieces of propaganda? Please do.

[IndianaJones]

87. just congratulating on the unity of your posts. it seems a concern of yours. nt.

[Barack_America]

77. I say we take Dean and get the hell out...

I'm seriously starting to think this.

*sigh*

[HopeforChange]

85. Hillary R. Clinton Will You Please Go Now!

Switch Richard M. Nixon with Hillary R. Clinton in the following.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/19/AR2006041901099.html


Richard M. Nixon Will You Please Go Now!

By Art Buchwald
Tuesday, July 30, 1974; Page B01

My good friend Dr. Seuss wrote a book a few years ago titled "Marvin K. Mooney Will You Please Go Now!" He sent me a copy the other day and crossed out "Marvin K. Mooney" and replaced it with "Richard M. Nixon." It sounded like fun so I asked him if I could reprint it. Please read it aloud.

"Richard M. Nixon will you please go now!
The time has come.
The time has come.
The time is now.
Just go.
Go.
Go!
I don't care how.
You can go by foot.
You can go by cow.
Richard M. Nixon will you please go now!
You can go on skates.
You can go on skis.
You can go in a hat.
But
Please go.
Please!
I don't care.
You can go
By bike.
You can go
On a Zike-Bike
If you like.
If you like
You can go
In an old blue shoe.
Just go, go, GO!
Please do, do, do, DO!
Richard M. Nixon
I don't care how.
Richard M. Nixon
Will you please
GO NOW!
You can go on stilts.
You can go by fish.
You can go in a Crunk-Car
If you wish.
If you wish
You may go
By lion's tale.
Or stamp yourself
And go by mail.
Richard M. Nixon
Don't you know
The time has come
To go, go, GO!
Get on your way!
Please Richard M.!
You might like going in a Zumble-Zay.
You can go by balloon . . .
Or broomstick.
Or
You can go by camel
In a bureau drawer.
You can go by bumble-boat
. . . or jet.
I don't care how you go.
Just get!
Richard M. Nixon!
I don't care how.
Richard M. Nixon
Will you please
GO NOW!
I said
GO
And
GO
I meant . . .
The time had come
So . . .
Richard WENT."

[madfloridian]

88. Before you attack me, please rebut the four propaganda pieces.

People are jumping all over me, yet not a single one has offered a rebuttal.

Why is that?

Is that what it is about? Forget truth, just attack the messenger.

Hey, folks, I am in no popularity contest here....being made fun of doesn't even touch me..

Just rebut the facts I posted.

[smiley_glad_hands]

91. They got nothing except lies, half truths, spin and distortion. eom

[madfloridian]

115. Well, you may be right. No one has disputed any of them.

They just get personal.

:shrug:

[sakura]

146. Ad hominem attacks are a sure sign of a weak argument or a weak mind.

There are plenty of intelligent Hillary supporters out there, but they must all be busy tonight.

[madfloridian]

92. Corzine taking up Clinton's spin on "popular vote." Slams caucuses

I have seen a lot of important Democrats sell their souls to this propaganda machine she has going on. Contempt for party rules, contempt for caucuses, dismissal of the fact that delegates decide the nominee.

He is no better than Bill Nelson of Florida.

Look what Gov. Corzine says.

http://www.bluejersey.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=7587

"He said that Clinton could end up winning the popular vote total, though Corzine acknowledged that "it's clear we shouldn't be counting Michigan."

Corzine had previously touted the popular vote as an important deciding factor and said he might switch his superdelegate vote to Obama if Clinton does not win the popular vote.

Presuming the popular vote is an important metric for how superdelegates should base their decision, I asked how caucus states which don't report their raw vote totals should be accounted for in that popular vote total. The response was surprisingly dismissive of caucus states, saying that counting their votes would be as "unfair as trying to count Michigan" since their voting process is less democratic.

Corzine repeated that the eventual Democratic nominee risks alienating voters in the 4th and 8th largest states if Florida and Michigan's votes are not counted, yet minutes earlier completely dismissed the results of 13 states that vote by caucus."

[madfloridian]

99. Now MI is joining Florida is appealing to the DNC. Is a lawsuit next from them?

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/palmbeach/floridapolitics/entries/2008/04/23/michigan_files_companion_to_fl.html

"Michigan DNC member Joel Ferguson has appealed a decision from the party’s Rules & Bylaws Committee to eliminate all of the state’s convention delegates. Ferguson said his two-part complaint is nearly identical to one Florida DNC member Jon Ausman filed on March 14.

Both are awaiting word about whether the committee will consider the pleas. But Ferguson isn’t holding his breath.

“These guys want to run the clock out,” Ferguson said. “They’d like to see this thing decided and make a rule that doesn’t mean anything and doesn’t offend either campaign. And by doing nothing, they offend everyone.”

Ferguson’s timeline might be about right: Asked about Florida and Michigan delegates earlier this month, DNC Chairman Howard Dean told CNN that, “The nominee will set the rules.”

[demo dutch]

104. I certainly hope so! and pls read my post # 101

[madfloridian]

107. I don't think I will.

I think I will say good by to you.

[demo dutch]

112. Then you are the coward I thought you were, what a shame! not even willing to have an honest debate

about what is wrong with the election process in this country! but I'm not surprised that's been pretty much the rule here on DU lately with the Obama supporters overall!

[WinkyDink]

106. I have read more vitriol here by Obama supporters against HRC and hers.

I don't see Party unity AT ALL.

[madfloridian]

110. Can you rebut the 4 pieces of propaganda? Please do.

Instead of making it about Obama, could you tell me why Clinton changed 4 party rules?

[demo dutch]

113. You are absolutely right!!!!!

[smiley_glad_hands]

125. Most here are progressives. If you haven't noticed she's been attacking progressives

as part of her campaign against Obama, not that he is an uber progressive just more so than she.

[smiley_glad_hands]

133. When did Hill or her supporters begin to care about party unity?eom

[jconner27]

117. If Dems lose

If the Democrats lose the election the lost, the blame will fall on Barack Obama and his supporters because you ass clowns are dead set on giving the Republicans the easiest path to victory.

[madfloridian]

118. Can you rebut the 4 pieces of propaganda? Please do.

Instead of yakking about bad we are, try to explain why she has used so much propaganda. Point by point, please.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

121. You are going to "bust my ass" at Larry Johnson's blog? Am I missing something?

I think you just threatened me, am I right? Did you just threaten me?

"Larry Johnson blog, Liberal Rapture, uppity does an very good job doing that. You want me go there and bust your ass for lying? Because I don't mind going to those blogs to dig things up to slap your ass around with."

I have no idea of what you mean. I don't know Liberal Rapture and uppity....want to share that.

I posted facts in this thread.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

122. "bust my ass"? Yes, that is rather threatening. Saying I am lying?

So people are now using the Larry Johnson's site, and a couple of others to attack me and prove I am lying.

Hey, go for it.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smiley_glad_hands]

130. Speaking of douches, look in the mirror.

It's real easy, post facts to refute facts, not ad hominem attacks, or is that too elitist for you?

[madfloridian]

131. A lying douche?

[Bette Noir]

151. Madfloridan

I love you. Don't let those others get to you.

Be my date for the Obama inaugural ball?

[madfloridian]

171. heh heh

:hi:

[neverforget]

119. Thanks for calling me an ass-clown since I am an Obama supporter.

[jconner27]

128. No prob glad to help...

[neverforget]

136. You don't help your candidate any with this type of language.

[jconner27]

141. Save it

The level of hate spew at Hillary and her supporters... You shouldn't be shock people throw that shit back at you people.

[neverforget]

173. Did I throw any shit at your candidate? Save your precious hatred for McCain.

[smiley_glad_hands]

144. For some reason, I don't think he/she is trying to help their candidate. eom

[smiley_glad_hands]

127. Hill is the easiest path to victory for repugs, why do you think rush supports her? lol eom

[jconner27]

135. What the fuck?

I notice that Obama followers love that talking point smiley you and the other cult followers would have a point but here's the facts for the 9 million time Barack Obama has won 13 GOP states they are not purple or slightly red these states are hardcore Republican states vs four GOP states Hillary won.

Obama: 13 GOP states
Clinton: 4 GOP yet according to Obama supporters the GOP wants Hillary.

[smiley_glad_hands]

137. What the fuck? Tell your boy rush to stop trying to disrupt the dem primary. lol

You can take your "cult" label and shove it up your ass btw.

[jconner27]

140. Damn

Smiley you short bus riding piece of monkey shit... Again

GOP states won:
Barack Obama: 13
Hillary Clinton:4

So how in the fuck is Rush helping Hillary when she has four states that's Republican vs the 13 Obama has? Can any of you CULT followers explain that? Smiley you can go eat a dick.

[smiley_glad_hands]

142. Why don't you refute the OP's facts instead of rolling up in here like you know somebody?

If this is the best you got, then I have way overestimated Hill and her supporters.

I hope your posts remain so that everyone can see what an ass you are.lol

[jconner27]

149. Sit down and here it comes

You Obama followers don't deal with facts you make shit up, the only people that believes in this crap that first douche that started the post,you and the other members that make up the Obama zombie nation. All you Obama followers do is whine and lie. If Obama is everything you said he is why can't he win states that I don't know actually matter to the Democrats in the fall? He has 13 Republican states which goes against the Obama team talking point the Republicans are trying to help Hillary, he can't connect with average people, and his ties to people like Wright and Akers is the stuff Karl Rove dreams are made of. Instead of getting worry or at least concern about these factors Obama followers go "hmm how far can I shove my head up my ass". Don't get shock when the Republicans remind middle America Obama pastor of 20 years said God damn America, or Americkkka or Obama ties to a dude that regets he didn't blow up more shit and we end up at the same place we were in back in 2004 another glass jaw Democrat losing to a Republican he shouldn't lose to. But hey you got Hillary to blame right?


As for post please I don't give a damn about you Obama followers. But you can do me a favor I issue challenge after challenge yet a Obama follower still haven't took me up.

I hear the talking point about oh the Republicans want to face Hillary.. Give me reason why they don't want to face Obama...

[smiley_glad_hands]

161. STFU and refute the OP's FACTS. I guess you can't.----There it goes. lol

The only people I see pushing rightwing bullshit is Hill and her supporters.

[bvar22]

143. K&R

My, you sure stirred up the shit pool tonight.
An awful stench arises from the desperate. :(

Adding this post to my bookmarks for future reference.
Thanks for the good work.

[madfloridian]

145. I noticed.

They are even threatening to "bust my ass"...:wow:

[jconner27]

150. This is fun

Obama followers you can't make a point without telling a lie, Obama followers don't have a thought unless it's a talking point from dear leader Obama. Threats please you're the ones talking about rioting if your golden idol loses check out Bartcop I don't think he has updated yet.

[madfloridian]

152. So you admit you are just launching attacks in this thread.

Pretty brave of you.

[jconner27]

154. Notice a trend among Obama supporters

I've seen the trend before and I should know better... Bush supporters will take one thing out of a post and use that to base their post around because they can't talk about the points like you did maddouche 1. Obama has won more heavy leaning GOP states which debunks the talking point that Rush is helping Hillary to win. 2. Obama can't win the big Democratic states when he needs to. 3. Obama has ties to people that will hurt him in the general election because the Republicans will paint him as a radical. 4. Obama has no substance i.e read or listen to those people who have endorse him they repeat the same line of hope and change over and over again like some strange chant. 5. he has thin skin. 6. his supporters idea of unity is get behind our guy or else. 7. he can only connect with one part of the Democratic base but to Obama supporters that's good enough. 8.his senate record is thin and he ducks out of votes. 9. he can't run from debates if he gets the nomination. 10. the media that's blowing him right now will turn against him so if you enjoy the team of Rachel Maddow and Eugene Robinson forget that you're going to see Rachel taking on 2 right wing talk show host once Obama gets it and Eugene will be seen on Countdown. 11. If he whines about Hillary how can deal with with over 400 right wing talk show host, every right wing blogger, every right wing pundit and every right wing 527 group going after him? 12. Don't expect too many Hillary voters to jump along the O train with you because you're the ones that started the shit throwing contest.

To sum things up
I fucked up by giving you clowns a subject to post because you can't debate the fact Obama has won more GOP states, Obama has flaws the Republicans will use against him I could go on but 1-12 covers it. Are you sure you Obama supporters aren't related to Bush supporters?

[smiley_glad_hands]

163. Why don't you start your own thread instead of obfuscating? Refute the OP's facts already.

Why are you so dense?

[smiley_glad_hands]

162. Hilliary can't open her mouth without telling a lie. Freep much? eom

[democracy1st]

153. K & R

[JAbuchan08]

155. How do you like that Floridians?

one guy speaking for all of you.

Good thing their is the clinton camp watching out for your right to vote! I wonder if they'll higher choice point?

[madfloridian]

156. Yep, Hillary is setting the rules for all of us.

Who are you gonna shoot with that guy you are gonna buy.

They are coming out of the woodwork.

:eyes:

[JAbuchan08]

177. I hope that wasn't a negative comment

at this point I would change my nick (if I could), but suffice it to say I believe in the right to bear arms subject to reasonable limitations.

I hope we are able to step back from the precipice, but if things go as badly as I fear it might be a good idea to own a gun. On the other hand if things go as badly as I fear you could have all the guns in the world and it still wouldn't make a great deal of difference.

Let's just say that my nick was a way of expressing my outrage at the abuses of this administration, while simultaneously poking fun of all those conservatives who say they need guns to protect themselves from the abuses of government while simultaneously turning a blind eye to the most oppressive government the US has ever had.

In any case I wish people would stop giving me crap about my nick. I don't own a gun. I haven't bought one and I don't see myself buying one anytime in the near future. I believe in the right to bear arms, but I also support common-sense restriction on the accessability of hand guns. In theory I believe that everyone has the right to use violence for self-defense, but in practice I am one of the most non-violent people you could expect to meet.

Suffice it to say that I am mad as hell at the excesses of this government and I'm beginning to think that we can't rely on anyone but ourselves to defend us from them.

Oh, BTW I was agreeing with you. I find it laughable that one guy is going to lecture the DNC on how ALL floridians are going to react.

[VotesForWomen]

157. it is symptomatic of cults that the members never see the wrong that their leader does. i'm sorry,

if you think Clinton has stooped any lower than Obama, you are simply seeing what you want to see.

[smiley_glad_hands]

164. Hill is the one promoting rightwing frames not Obama. You are seeing what you want to see.

Take your cult label and shove it. I haven't always supported Obama and certainly don't agree on everything he says---just more so than Hill.

[Jawja]

159. Thank you for your facts and analysis.

The Clintonians are using legal mumbo-jumbo, perhaps on the order of the "equal protection" argument that applies only to George W. Bush to ensure his theft of the election in Florida, 2000.

All of the DNC rules and the nomination by delegates chosen primaries and caucuses mean nothing to Clintonians when they can't win legally (by the rules). They are aiming for the same kind of special argument or special interpretation of the primary/caucus results to hand them a victory outside of the rules. And why do they believe they can pull this off? Because they are entrenched in Washington and they have powerful people in the Party and the media (Scaife, anyone?) who will help them. This is happening as we speak.

Just like George W. Bush in 2000. He would have won the Presidency within the bounds of the Constitution if the Supreme Court had stayed out of it and let Florida and the U.S. House of Representatives carry out the process without intervention. But the Bushes couldn't wait that long to take power; and their surrogates on the Supreme Court (Republicans) used the "equal protection only applying to George W. Bush for all of history" reasoning to cover an obvious election theft. And why were they able to pull this off? Because the Bushes were entrenched in Washington (and Florida) and had very powerful people and the media who helped them.

So if the Clintonians succeed in using the "she is more electable" BS and succeed in getting enough Super Delegates to hold out on endorsement until the convention, you will be seeing the same entrenched power process at work to get the Democratic nomination for Clinton in 2008 that worked to get the Presidency for George W. Bush in 2000: entrenched and powerful Washington insiders and the backing of a small group of people who own the media.

The result will be a devastated Democratic Party facing entrenched and powerful Washington insiders with the backing of same media supporting John McCain.

[Robeson]

166. Excellent analysis, jawja...

...and it will crack the Democratic party. The Clintons may be a lot of things, but stupid isn't one of them. So what are their motives for potentially damaging the party beyond repair?

[madfloridian]

169. Yes, it is working, though. Speaking of equal protection....did you read this?

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2024

Isn't that using the same argument? Dems suing Dems.

I am so angry.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eilen]

167. I don't want to vote for her, Ever.

Honestly, the conduct of Hillary Clinton, her husband and her campaign is so sleazy and full of deceit that I am embarrassed she is my Senator. I think if I could take back my vote for her I would. At this point, I don't want to vote for her because she is such a liar that I don't think there is much difference between her and Bush. I would cast my vote as Anyone but Hill.

With her willingness to "obliterate" Iran, who can believe that she would actually look to get out of Iraq? I don't believe that is in her plans. How do I know what the truth is with her when she says anything, total baldfaced lies about herself just to get elected. When she is in the White House, how do I know she won't do the same thing? Just say bald faced lies and pretend they are truth? Then there is the curious role her husband will have in the White House. It is really not the same as any first spouse. After all, there are people who were loyal to him when he was President, can we count on markers not being called? Between their attempts to bully the DNC with their wealthy supporters, the lawsuits in Nevada, Michigan, Florida, campaign fundraiser scandals, the kitchen sink, the constant lies regarding NAFTA (she is no friend to the working man--see Tata), the bankruptcy vote -- I can't list them all with the time I have. Someone mentioned that Obama supporters are paranoid. Well, after the last 8 years, I would not call it paranoia, just a healthy cautious nature.

I like Obama --he is my candidate but I have to tell you, my revulsion for Hillary has become stronger than my like for Obama. In fact, he would not have to be Obama, he could be Edwards, Kucinich, Gore, or (my dear hope someday, Russ Feingold).

[Texas Hill Country]

168. are you kidding!?!?! with the BS mailers Obama just sent out!!!!

[Bigleaf]

174. Kick! Great Post!

[ShortnFiery]

176. Then they best "let go" because if they take US (the party) down, The Clintons go down with it.

And The Party will "rise up" out of the ashes like a Phoenix, but "The Clinton" name will forever equate with PARTY TREASON ... etched in stone from now to eternity.

The Clintons best FIRST consider that they (their political power and what's left of their reputation) will go down with their FILTH.

[puebloknot]

178. Thanks for this. As a political novice (merely a voter), I appreciate ...

... being enlightened on this matter.

[mcollier]

179. Campaigning of Olds Fundamental Flaw

After a long fought down in the dirt campaign, the winning candidate typically burns the very bridges they need to cross later in order to get things done in government. This is a significant flaw of the politics as usual. Barack Obama brings a philosophy of building people up not tearing people down. That's who he is, and the American People respect and appreciate him for that. This is fundamental to changing Washington.

To see more about Barack Obama's plan for America visit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG0TsYTb6_E

[madfloridian]

180. And it will be a terribly hard change to make.

There are forces who don't want that change.

[puebloknot]

181. I'm impressed with Obama, and I hope if he is elected he can make...

...sweeping changes. I'm sorry to think that we're in a place where all we can hope for is small changes, and keeping the forces of darkness (yep, whether religious, spiritual, or scifi, there are forces working against democracy) from taking us down.

Obama faces all the usual challenges anyone would face as a new President, and in addition to that, he'll have to fight to sub rosa racism that will begin trying to defeat him from the word "Go." But he's strong and determined, and I'm hopeful he will be able to make changes that are substantive!

Thanks for joining in!

[Eurobabe]

182. The Clintons and their personality disorders have damaged the Dem party

It will never bet the same after this. Never.

What a friggin' mess. Typical Clinton dysfunction.