We fucked up.

[here_is_to_hope]

We get the Presidency handed to us on a silver platter after 7 years of repuke rule, then we put forth the two candidates who are the most divisive, including one that is completely power mad and delusional (with zero chance of winning) and then we drag it out until the very bitter end.

We have shot ourselves in the foot, head, arms and whatever else.

What a joke we have become.

We even get close to having another Democrat as President and I am going to call it a miracle.

[BlooInBloo]

1. The clarion call of the hopeless.

[BobbyVan]

43. We should have nominated Edwards.

On second thought, we still can! His campaign is only "suspended". It's not too late.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

85. Who would have been portrayed as a flip flopping, elitist, trial lawyer hairdo.

We put up a genuine war hero last time and they turned him into a cowardly wimp who windsurfed.

[JuniperLea]

2. This is exactly what "they" want us to believe...

My dog could beat Four More Years McCain in the GE. The only thing hurting the party right now is all the goddamn whining.

[zbdent]

27. The repukes have shown that a brain-damaged rock, with the media backing it,

can be made into a "President" (esp. when all the media is calling any rock questioners as "unpatriotic") ...

No offense meant to the brain-damaged rocks ...

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

35. No offense taken

:rofl:
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTYzNTYxMzI1MV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwOTIyMDA2._V1._CR0,0,271,271_SS100_.jpg

[here_is_to_hope]

46. Boy, I needed that! LMAO!!!11!! n/t

[rinsd]

3. Relax. McCain has not gained ground on them in polls.

And that is with what? 2 months solid of coverage of Democratic infighting and focus on each candidate negatives?

Look at the Democratic turnout this primary season vs that for the Republicans.

Huge numbers are turning out for both candidates.

While I would prefer that we already have our nominee, we are still in a good position to win.

[jerryster]

6. Is that correct?

Both zogby and rasmussen have mccain ahead of both our candidates (not by much). But I believe he has gained ground.

[babylonsister]

15. Read this: he's not going anywhere. Wait til he actually has a

competitor:

http://thecurrent.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/04/mccain.php

[rinsd]

18. Here are all the national heats.

Poll	     Date	   Sample   McCain (R)  Obama (D)  Und	Spread
RCP Average	04/07 - 04/22	-	44.8	46.0	6.0	Obama +1.2
Rasmussen	04/19 - 04/22	1700 LV	47	44	9	McCain +3.0
Gallup Tracking	04/17 - 04/21	4367 RV	45	45	5	Tie
USA T/Gallup	04/18 - 04/20	1016 A	44	47	--	Obama +3.0
Cook/RT         04/17 - 04/20	802 RV	44	45	9	Obama +1.0
Newsweek	04/16 - 04/17	1209 RV	44	48	8	Obama +4.0
ABC/Wash Post	04/10 - 04/13	1197 A	44	49	2	Obama +5.0
Reuters/Zogby	04/10 - 04/13	1049 LV	45	45	--	Tie
AP-Ipsos	04/07 - 04/09	749 RV	45	45	3	Tie

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

Poll	     Date	Sample	   McCain (R) Clinton (D) Und	Spread
RCP Average	04/07 - 04/22	-	45.5	45.6	5.5	Clinton +0.1
Rasmussen 	04/19 - 04/22	1700 LV	47	44	9	McCain +3.0
Gallup Tracking	04/17 - 04/21	4367 RV	46	45	4	McCain +1.0
USAT/Gallup	04/18 - 04/20	1016 A	44	50	--	Clinton +6.0
Cook/RT         04/17 - 04/20	802 RV	45	45	7	Tie
Newsweek	04/16 - 04/17	1209 RV	43	47	10	Clinton +4.0
ABC/Wash Post	04/10 - 04/13	1197 A	48	45	1	McCain +3.0
Reuters/Zogby	04/10 - 04/13	1049 LV	46	41	--	McCain +5.0
AP-Ipsos	04/07 - 04/09	749 RV	45	48	2	Clinton +3.0

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_clinton-224.html

Hillary and McCain have been more back & forth with Obama holding a steadier lead over McCain.

Both Democrats also do well in swing state polling vs McCain.

[kmsarvis]

29. Todays gallup does too.

[Carrieyazel]

44. True, but not all Dem coverage has been negative. McCain's been invisible in the last week

which isn't helping HIM move much in the polls.

And its still only an effective tie (at best) for us. The McCain people have no problem with where they're at right now.

[Kittycat]

4. As a clinton supporter (by your avatar) - I'm surprised that you would admit this about her

"including one that is completely power mad and delusional"

[here_is_to_hope]

20. Actually, I felt self-abusive so I changed the avatar

to Hillary...I am firmly in O's camp...probably against the rules somewhere but...

But I think I need to step away for awhile and get back to reality.

Thanks Ya'll!

[Captain Hilts]

5. Surveys show either Obama or Clinton beating McCain. Not to worry. nt

[jerryster]

10. Which surveys? n/t

[mac2]

23. But they are all in power now and led us to this point.

How will we get real change back to democracy and prosperity?

[AspenRose]

7. Agreed

eom

[ShortnFiery]

8. I blame The Clintons: They did nothing to help Gore or Kerry of substance, bad mouthing them

behind their backs. Now, HRC will either steal the Nomination or she'll f**k up Obama's reputation enough so he is unelectable ... leaving the door open for "her highness" come 2012.

I believe that "if there's a God in Heaven" may he encourage the HRC to show grace and withdraw from this race.

I'm burned-out of BOTH Dynastic Families: Go Away CLINTONs and BUSHs ... don't go away mad, just GO AWAY!

[polmaven]

51. No Kidding!!!!

I blame The Clintons

Is that something new? :rofl:

I do believe you likely blame "The Clintons" for Eve deciding to eat the apple!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[greguganus]

55. Well they are both sneaky snakes. n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

74. Yet another fucking idiot for the ignore list

[polmaven]

82. Well It's about time!!!!!

What took you so long?????

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MattBaggins]

93. No I just blame Eve

she was a woman after all.

[Straight Shooter]

75. What did Obama ever do to help Kerry?

Mr. "Constitutional Law Professor" uttered not one peep over the Ohio debacle in the 2004 election. Where was his great speech decrying the theft of democracy? This man who spent so much time learning and teaching about our Constitution, made no speech because he had too much to lose if he rocked the boat. What a speech it might have been, if he had dared to speak out.

One person of substance who stood up and fought for democracy in Ohio was Jesse Jackson. Yet the Obama campaign was inflamed that Obama would be compared to JJ after South Carolina. But if anyone should have been offended at the comparison, it's Jesse.

Yes, yes, I know he endorsed Obama. But that's because he's the bigger man.

[MattBaggins]

92. If she really thinks she is securing

2012 she is even more delusional than folks thought. She will find a wave of opposition to her next time around. Perhaps she plans to keep doing this over and over. Be the perpetual spoiler candidate.

[XemaSab]

9. Thank you for admitting that she's completely power mad and delusional

It's a big step.

[DianeK]

11. I suggest you put away the firearms

"We have shot ourselves in the foot, head, arms and whatever else."

[Perry Logan]

12. You've been hanging around progressives again, haven't you?

[caligirl]

13. Thank you for acknowledgeing this about your candidate, she now needs 71%

of delegates on May 6 and 81% of delegates after May 6.As Chuck Todd said this is not going to happen. She has won far fewer states and does not have the popular vote of the majority of voters.

[shaniqua6392]

25. The op is not a Clinton supporter.

I don't know what is with the avatar switch. It is not like a Clinton supporter is acknowledging anything bad. In this case, it is an Obama supporter posing as a Clinton supporter. Strange.

[caligirl]

30. oh wow.

[EFerrari]

14. We'll be fine. Don't listen to the corporate media.

We're in good hands. :hi:

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

16. Soo lets all keep up the roar about all those failed Republican

policies, don't stop, don't get quiet, they fucked up, don't you forget that!

[here_is_to_hope]

48. Gotcha and I will not forget! n/t

[Lerkfish]

17. "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory" should be our motto

and it is the DLC legacy to our party.

[LWolf]

64. It IS the motto of the Democratic Party, as far as I'm concerned.

The determined obstinacy in the face of every opportunity to achieve something positive astounds me.

[HereSince1628]

19. Sounds like a great day to take a walk to reduce your stress.

And please don't suppress the urge to laugh.

If 'we' really and truly are a joke and you can laugh at 'us,' you'll feel much better.

[here_is_to_hope]

22. I hear and I think I will...let me get my avatar back to where it belongs...

And I am outta here for the day.

Ya'll be good!

[mac2]

21. I agree.

And our President is meeting with Mexico and Canada without any out rage over his wanting the Americas Union for us. No candidate has demanded impeaching or even jailing him for his treason. Few on this site even express their shock.

Are they in a parallel universe?

[Cali_Democrat]

24. I don't see how you can say Obama has been divisive

Obama has done NOTHING to be divisive. Unless you think his skin color is divisive.

Hillary is the divisive one.

[SeaLyons]

53. You don't think all

his Pastor's crap brought some divisiveness to the campaign? Or his bitter comments? For a guy that campaigned on Unity and Hope, he sure did stir the divisive pot. And let's not leave Michelle out of this. She's added to the pot with her own comments.

[Swamp Rat]

26. We will win in November, no matter who is our candidate.

[electropop]

34. Great image Swamp Rat!

I've been a fan for a long time, but this is one of your best.

[Erin Elizabeth]

28. "We?"

Really? I had a hand in all THAT?

[Rene]

31. bho should have left his ego at home and stayed out of it

flyweight

[wiggs]

32. Not yet. Obama will roll over McCain if nominated, even with long primary...

...since he's excellent at framing issues and isn't afraid to point out administration failings over last 7 years. Won't triangulate. I would be more worried if the GOP had even a marginally better record over the last 8 years...as it stands, they are epically horrible in every policy area and an honest, well-spoken candidate will have a field day. Should be easy, really. Obama CAN stand in contrast to McCain, clearly, on policy and as a new unifying face of America. I think seeing the two on stage together in debate would make the choice clearer and clearer for many Americans.

Can't say that for the other candidate...so your point is well made if Clinton becomes the nominee. Only a polarizing, corporatist candidate with high, high negatives on day one will have a tough time. This candidate's polling does not go up with time...it's going down in almost every state and nationally. If we started the primary season now, the results would be dramatically different...in the GE to come we would be putting forth a nominee on the decline. I imagine a bruising, disgusting GE battle with lots of finger pointing and confusion...with two candidates who vote and campaign like steadfast GOP oldtimers...a campaign not based on inspiration and change but on ambition and a race to the bottom. People would be voting against who they DON'T want rather than who they DO want. So a long primary in which this polarizing candidate eeks out a SD win by going low won't help the dem cause. This is a no-win scenario for dems and the nation, IMO.

Having said that...I hope the thing ends soon with SD's coming out this week as predicted for Obama.

[Carrieyazel]

42. Even considering all your solid points, it doesn't mean he'll roll over McCain.

Also, Obama's debating skills are not his strong suit.

[aquart]

33. What do you mean "we" kemosabee?

After 7 years of Bush, I can understand why democratic process seems strange to you. You really ought to stop believing everything the pundits tell you.

[Terran]

36. Translation:

"We should have nominated a white guy."

[Andrea]

58. That's a good way to build party unity

Any time someone disagrees with you, imply that they are racist and/or sexist.

[Steely_Dan]

60. How Dare You?

You post is disgusting and divisive. YOu should be ashamed!

-P

[Terran]

66. Jesus Christ!

Are you both sarcasm-impaired? I'm not saying we should have selected "a white guy" for chrissakes.

[Steely_Dan]

68. Oh, No...I Got The Sarcasm

What I hear you saying is that anyone that is against Obama or believes that he cannot win is a racist. Isn't that what you are saying?

-P

[ieoeja]

71. What do you think the OP meant by "divisive"?

He won the very first primary and hasn't relinquished the lead since.
He won 10 primaries in a row.
He has won in every region of the country.

He would seem to be the very definition of "unifying", and yet we get an OP calling him divisive.

Also, Hillary is not a white "guy" either. So the sub-thread comment seemed to be defending both from the OP's statements.

[Terran]

88. Thanks you

Glad somebody got it.

[Andrea]

79. That's exactly what Terran was saying.

S/he thinks we're sarcasm impaired, but actually s/he is reading comprehension impaired.

I am so sick of being accused of being racist or sexist because I don't agree with someone. If I wanted to be bashed for having an opinion, I'd go to Freeperville. These days, one's entire identity here is defined by one's response (or lack thereof) to two people. This is ridiculous, hateful, and completely counterproductive.

[Terran]

87. LOL, you are SO wrong

See my reponse below for explanation.

[Terran]

86. No, not at all.

My apologies if my attempt at brevity made it unclear. What I meant was that the OP is saying *neither* candidate is a good choice because of their gender/ethnicity--because that, IMO, is the ONLY reason either of them could be considered 'unelectable' (well, also IMO, Clinton has some trust issues now that could also do that, but that's another issue entirely).

[Andrea]

89. I appreciate your apology, but I don't agree

I think there are plenty of reasons that both of them are unelectable or at least questionably electable.

For example, Obama does not have much experience in campaigning. That is why he keeps making these mistakes (Grandmother is a "typical white person", small town people are bitter, etc, etc). I'm not arguing about the accuracy of the statements - some of them I agree with. What I am saying is that they are mistakes from a campaign perspective. We might think about the statements, consider the context, see some nuance, etc., but most people won't. He keeps saying things that offend huge portions of the electorate. It doesn't matter whether you or I think he's right, it matters what the masses of voters think and how they react. If he had more experience, I don't think he would make these mistakes.

Clinton keeps saying things that can be read as lies. Some are, some aren't. The famous Bosnia sniper fire comment, for example, comes off as a huge lie, but might not be. She didn't say they were under massive artillery fire (that would be unmistakable), she said the threat of sniper fire. Sniper fire is one or two well placed rifle shots. One could very well be told there was a threat of sniper fire and not hear or see any shots, but still believe the threat is there. But no one took that into consideration and she came off like a liar. She had high negatives before this campaign ever started and she has not been able to overcome them.

The fact of the matter is that neither has achieved a significant margin within our own party, so their electability in the fall is definitely in question.

What I heard in your statement is that you don't agree with the OP, so you immediately trotted out that old chestnut about bringing in the "white guy". Just because someone doesn't have confidence in these two candidates or doesn't like them does not mean they want a "white guy". I couldn't care less about the race or gender of any of the candidates or prospective candidates. I want someone who cares about issues that are important to me, has plans to address those issues, and is electable in the fall.

I am sincerely asking each and every person out there to quit branding people as racists and/or sexists just because they don't care for these two candidates. To do that is to make a huge, unsupported, unfair characterization of me and others. As Democrats, we should be above that kind of unjust attack.

[Steely_Dan]

90. I Got It...

(finally).

[JVS]

37. What's divisive about Obama other than the fact that he's black?

Is he really divisive, or are the clinton's using divisive tactics to try to catch up?

[HughBeaumont]

52. There's only ONE divisive candidate here.

If she can't have it, NO one will.

Everyone on here would like to make us think Barack is the problem, when he's cool calm and collected about it all. He's not even sweating this. The onus is all on her and that oversized ego and entitlement she's shrouded in.

[ieoeja]

73. How is Obama divisive? Let me count the ways.

1. After winning the very first primary he never relinquished the lead. He should have let Hillary or Edwards take a turn out front for a bit. But, no, he selfishly kept the lead to himself.

2. After Super Tuesday he won ten primaries in a row. If that isn't throwing it in the face of your opponents, then what is?

3. He won more states, more delegates, more primaries and more caucuses and will probably win more popular votes. Again, this constant winning is guaranteed to garner nothing but resentment from the losers.

4. And what do you think winning in every region does? Unify them? Hardly. It just makes them feel like they have to vie against each other for his attention. "We're the ones who gave you this victory; don't pay attention to those guys over there."

[JVS]

77. #2 is false

It was 11!

[Carrieyazel]

38. In 1992 we didn't have this problem. We had the most electable

and most feared candidate. The Repukes were in despair. They knew the White House was gone. This year, they know that in spite of themselves, they can still win the Presidency.

[Carrieyazel]

Deleted message.

[Carrieyazel]

39. Obama is a very vulnerable candidate, not so much divisive.

[Carrieyazel]

40. When it comes to the Presidency, we've got a lot of bad luck.

And it looks to continue this year. We have got to learn to nominate candidates who are electable. Sitting senators are not our path to the White House. They can't win enough battlegrounds.
We need to think strategically, and stop this inspirational crap, and "its this person's time" crap.

[nichomachus]

41. WE???? What could "we" have done

Besides, I think you're panicking way too soon.

What if this had ended on Super Tuesday?

Say Hillary had won on ST. That meant the GOP could have focused its heavy artillery on her all the sooner. They would have had nine months to get the Swift Boat crowd and the talking heads to spend all their time on her. Now, they will only have eight or nine weeks for the main brunt of their attack.

Say Obama had won on ST. Most people in the country -- even inside the Democratic Party -- wouldn't know who he was or anything about him. He would have had to spend all this time getting name recognition, and the corporate media could have simple ignored him while it pandered to McCain. Now, by the time the Democratic convention is over, almost everyone in the country will have seen and heard from Obama. One of his strong points is that when people see and hear him, they like him -- unless they are wearing "Hillary blinders," in which case they see only the devil.

[here_is_to_hope]

47. You make a very good point!

I didnt mean to dump on any one candidate, I was really hoping it would all be over yesterday...
But your points above do make some sense and tell me there may be some daylight left...

[Catherina]

45. No we didn't. Hillary's arrogance got in the way.

We'll just have to brush her aside like the little shit she is.

WE didn't fuck up. See you on Nov 7

[mckeown1128]

49. I blame the media for giving attention to our version of

Huckabee. Hillary wouldn't be getting this attention if she weren't good for TV ratings. They would have ignored her just like they do to the other "no longer has a shot in hell" candidates.

[Ian David]

50. It could be worse. We could have been running Lieberman / Sharpton '08. n/t

[OneDemsConscience]

54. We Did Exactly What The GOP Wanted

The Right-Wing machine has been promoting Hillary for president for years.

[greguganus]

56. Agree.n/t

[Geezoh]

57. Supremely bad choice.

I've been a progressive all my life, and the last thing I'll do is go into the voting booth and cast a vote for a warmongering idiot (J Mc) who at the same time he was allegedly criticizing George for his handling of the Iraq war, waltzed into my district and threw all his support behind a chickenhawk Bushite rubber stamp named Peter Roskam.

But the other two?

We have a woman who couldn't wait to hop on the Limbaugh/Hannity bandwagon regarding Rev. Wright (who would get my vote for president before either of the other two Democrat finalists), and who resorted to Carl Rove tactics in the last days of the PA primary, with her Osama Bin Laden ads, suggesting that her opponent is soft on terrorism.

Vicious opportunist who left her decency in her other pants.

Then we have the guy who's in bed with the most notoriously corrupt political machine in the country and has the audacity to suggest that he's a reformer? Barack Obama worked the slickest little real estate kickback deal in recent memory on his mansion in Chicago with political fixer and federal lockup resident Tony Rezko...to the tune of $300K. He was slated for his run for Il State Senate by the Daley machine, and then for his run for US Senate by, guess who...the Daley machine.

Some reformer.

[Steely_Dan]

59. I Could Not Agree With You More!

How could we have taken what should have been a shoe-in election for the Dems and made it into a horse-race? Just unbelievable. Bush is the worst President in the history of this country...we should have been smarter.

-P

[truebrit71]

61. Hillary has tried very hard to fuck us over...but Barack Obama will be taking the oath of office..

...next January despite her best efforts to destroy this party...

[hopein08]

62. I agree, completely...

I really, really, really want to care about this election. But I have never liked Hillary and I like Obama even less. So I voted for Hillary yesterday, mostly in protesting of people trying to force her out of the race and anoint Obama. I doubt I'd vote for her in the general election. And I won't vote for Obama either. I certainly won't vote for a Clinton/Obama ticket of any sort.

And, no, I won't vote for McCain either.

But I want to care. And I want a Democrat as President. But I don't care because I doubt it will happen.

[Andrea]

80. There is one way it can happen.

Check out the link in my sig line.

[LWolf]

63. Well, many people fucked up.

I didn't. I haven't cast a vote yet, and I've never supported either of the current two.

I knew all along that these were the two worst candidates of the bunch. Democrats are great at closing their ears and minds to things they don't want to acknowledge.

I'm excessively bitter about those who put us where we find ourselves right now.

[merbex]

65. We had a great field and we essentially ignored it...what a waste n/t

[Maven]

67. Maybe you wanna rethink your screen name.

:crazy:

[Toucano]

69. Naw, we all have our moments, don't we?

:rofl:

[here_is_to_hope]

78. The name came right after the 06

elections...after lurking here for a few years (I dont post much obviously) I had finally found enough 'hope' to think that the war would be ending soon, things would get back on track, etc...and I wanted to be a part of it here at DU.
We both know what has happened since...
Yeah, just down to today I guess. I want it over with.
I want this war stopped.
Like right fucking now.

I would vote for either Hill or the Big O but man, we could have done a lot better....

[Toucano]

70. Zero chance of winning?

They both have a good chance of winning.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Clinton/Maps/Apr23.html
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Obama/Maps/Apr23.html

[stillcool]

72. I didn't fuck up...

I voted for Obama!!

[nomaco-10]

76. Yep, it's been like groundhog day for the last eight years....

I supported Gore, who I liked and respected tremendously, but alas, he talked about lock boxes way too much and just couldn't be himself when the media stuck a camera and a mike in his face. Then we got Howard Dean, who I absolutely adored. He told it straight up, but when he raised his voice to encourage his supporters in Iowa, he was crucified by the msm. Then we got Kerry by default. I don't even want to go there.

Barack, I didn't think I would fall this hard again, but you reeled me in this one more time with your eloquent speeches and classy mannerisms. Dude, you have got to get back on track and start handling the media with the finesse and intellect that you have shown thru most of this long and arduous campaign. Try to remember you are living in the age of youtube and every asshole that has a cell phone can record you where ever you go and whatever you say.

P.S. Try to dumb yourself down whenever you go to states like Pa. They really like hunters and bowlers a really, really lot.

[blues90]

81. It certainly is fucked up !

To try at this oint in time to get either a black man or women into the whitehouse may be the thing to do but this is not then time after bush has screwed this counrty over so badly in everyway possible.

No one at this point will change the way the political machine runs.

Edwards was the chance we had and this was blown.

We will make history alright but not by having either Hillary or Obama but by watching this country die.

[Kermit77]

83. It's getting bad. Even Whoopi and Joy Behar were talking about voting for McCain

This race has gotten much too divisive. Why can't Hillary make a graceful exit. She is not gonna win.

[ruby slippers]

84. You didn't shoot your foot....Hillary shot it with some help from Dick Cheney.....

[bigwillq]

91. Relax.

When Obama wins the nomination, he will wipe the floor with John McCain's ass, and all the new, and young, voters that Obama brought to the fold will go out and vote and give the Democrats the White House.

Chill out. Breathe. Relax.

[Rockholm]

94. Your post could have been good.

Just who is the power mad and delusional one with zero chance of winning?

[Bigleaf]

95. Just look at your avatar for your answer, Grasshopper.

[Rockholm]

96. Well aren't you just the nicest ass on the block.