"Even Hillary's endorser, Bobby Kennedy, Jr., knows there's something funny ..."

[helderheid]

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_barbara__080423_clinton_s_blind_eye_.htm">"Even Hillary's endorser, Bobby Kennedy, Jr., knows there's something funny about the pattern of her wins."

http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/He_s_popular_any_place_where_they_count_the_votes_by_hand">Digg it

Without audits, who knows. Disturbing pattern, though. I trust Bobby Kennedy, Jr., even if I don't like his endorsement.

[joeybee12]

1. This nutjob conspiracy theory doesn't help the Dems, because if

you keep going on about Hilary "stealing" these votes, no one is going to listen when the Repukes actually do it again...you'll have cried wolf one too many times.

Take a deep breath and realize that it's simply because people vote for her because the whole world is not smitten with Barry like you are.

[helderheid]

5. Hillary didn't steal votes, and had you been paying attention, you'd know that isn't what I'm saying

[joeybee12]

8. "Disturbing pattern."

Then, pray tell, what did you mean????

[helderheid]

17. Just that.

Doesn't mean she had anything to do with that pattern.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. You Do Know They Did A Partial ReCount In NH And When They Stopped HRC Had Picked Up Votes

~

[helderheid]

47. GOOD. I don't trust these machines, no matter who they favor.

[stillcool]

63. Too bad there aren't

automatic standard recounts after each and every election...as there indeed are in 17 states. It's just the other 43 where the citizens of those states don't give a shit about their votes counting. Too bad that people don't give a shit if their votes are counted accurately unless their candidate loses. Too bad people don't want to do anything about it, until AFTER the election. Too bad that some states couldn't perform a recount if they wanted to. Too bad the Senator Kerry couldn't count the votes, that were not there to count. Too bad People did not insist that there votes be counted but instead relied on a "sore loser", "sour grapes" guy to do it for them.

http://brennan.3cdn.net/a56eba8edf74e9e12e_r2m6b86s2.pdf
http://www.federalelectionreform.com/pdf/Voting%20Systems%20Issue%20Brief.pdf
http://www.votetrustusa.org/pdfs/California_Folder/DieboldReport.pdf
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/info/everest.aspx
http://www.votetrustusa.org/pdfs/Diebold%20Folder/uconn-report-os.pdf

[dchill]

82. So now there are 60 states?

:shrug:

[cui bono]

126. How do you think Clinton is winning the popular vote? She's annexed all of Central America

Finland, Lithuania and the Czech Republic. She tried for Bosnia but it was too dangerous for her to go there to negotiate with them.

[dchill]

130. I knew that, but I guess I forgot.

The awesome power of the Clinton imagination. :hi:

[helderheid]

131. !

:spray:

[stillcool]

136. Did I make a mistake?

Sorry.

[PoliticalOne65]

106. Clinton's tricks.

The above statement said there are 17 states with automatic recounts, and 43 states that don't have automatic ones. That Hillery is a miracle worker She somehow got 60 states to get votes and delegates from. This is how they do it. Amazing

[stillcool]

137. I'm sorry that I entered 43 instead of 33...

but I'm sure you can read that my post had Nothing to do with Hillary or Obama. Did you read the links? Does everything have to be about a candidate? Can the voting systems be discussed..at all...without making reference to a candidate? It seems to me, after reading the links... that anyone with the expertise can alter election results. This time everything was okay, but what about the next time? Why not adopt the simple measures that assure that our votes are accurately tabulated? Then, we wouldn't have to go through this after every close election. I'm so surprised that people don't care.

[PoliticalOne65]

138. Sorry

I knew that it was a typo, and was having a little fun with it. I think more people care, but don't have a way to vent their frustrations. In my case I try humor, but I am not always funny.

[truedelphi]

114. A partial recount is meaningless

I knew people in New Hampshire who were opposed to any recount, because they figured it woud be stopped and then whatever happened could be held as proof that nothing was wrong.

[helderheid]

133. have you seen this?

http://www.geocities.com/electionmodel/2008PrimariesLinks.htm

[Saturday]

23. Yea, whatever. nt

[helderheid]

51. verifiable elections are so passe.

[InfiniteNether]

75. You mean, "quaint".

[helderheid]

84. Indeed!

:yourock:

[Ned_Devine]

9. "nutjob conspiracy theory"...really?

[joeybee12]

13. Oh yeah, and Hilary personally saw his passport file!

There were cries of Hilary stealin PA even early yesterday morning...yeah, I call that nutjob. And if you didn't get my point, I'm pretty sure the Repukes stole 2004, and I know they stole 2000...but if every time Hilary wins a primary nutjobs call cheat and steal, does anyone listen after a while?

[Ned_Devine]

31. I don't care for the company she keeps...

...and I wouldn't put it past them to take part in something devious. Namely, Terry McAuliffe. He's the same guy that railroaded Howard Dean in 2004 so we'd get stuck with John Kerry. Now he's going on Fox and giving thanks and praise

[rodeodance]

78. I do not care for company Obama keeps. Ayers, Wright, Resco.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. If The Clintons Are Election Thiefs Then Bob Dole And Bush Pere Have Legitimate Beefs

What's good for the goose is good for the gander and all that...

[stillcool]

69. nobody listens anyway...

I'm actually looking forward to it in November. Then one side will scream at the candidate for not counting votes that can't be counted. And the other will scream "sore loser" and "sour grapes". And then the wrong guy will get elected. And then we'll be back here again in 2010, and 2012, and so on spouting off the same shit.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ned_Devine]

34. That's poetic!

I just watched a couple of old EPMD videos on youtube and you got some good lines there. Haha!

[Kurovski]

72. The Mods are poetry haters!

:-) OK, so I got a little out of hand. I wish I remembered what I said.

What's EPMD?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. Your Macho Rhetoric Is Giving Me Wood

This is better than pulp fiction novels...

[Joe Chi Minh]

22. When the extent of the manipulations of the elections by the Republican black ops people

are eventually revealed, your abysmal humiliation will exceed even your dumb arrogance now. Be assured of that.

[The Doctor.]

42. I'd advise a more thoughtful approach there...

I haven't seen anyone claim that 'Hillary' was 'stealing' votes. That claim is misleading to begin with. Second; calling anyone who suggests election fraud may be present (including Bobby Kennedy Jr. in this case) a "nutjob" only suggests you are ignorant of the very real fraud of the last several years, and diminishes your legitimacy on that particular issue.

We know that there were exit poll discrepancies in PA that apparently favor Clinton.
We know that only Republicans have benefitted from results in excess of the MOE, and only where there are DREs.
We know that PA is chock-full of DREs.
We know that Republicans want to keep Clinton in the race.

Is that conclusive? No, but it's worth consideration. It also means that throwing around the term 'nutjob' is not only premature, but somewhat oblivious to the facts.

Perhaps it is best to take a 'wait and see' approach and examine the facts after inspection.

Fair enough?

[stillcool]

62. No one is going to listen then anyway....

people can do something about securing their voting systems so they can be assured of accurate tabulating of their votes, but no one gives a shit until after their candidate loses, or after the numbers don't add up. What's up with the "Barry" thing? Were you a childhood friend? Or do you think that you are somehow slighting him Joey?

[Texas Hill Country]

122. agreed.

[joeybee12]

2. This nutjob conspiracy theory doesn't help the Dems, because if

you keep going on about Hilary "stealing" these votes, no one is going to listen when the Repukes actually do it again...you'll have cried wolf one too many times.

Take a deep breath and realize that it's simply because people vote for her because the whole world is not smitten with Barry like you are.

[PoliticalAmazon]

40. What makes you think Hillary didn't ararnge the vote fraud?....

What in anything she has done would make you believe she wouldn't do that?

She's copied every other tactic of Bush/Rove. What makes you think she would stop at vote fraud?

[AntiFascist]

52. Whether she did or not is kind of beside the point...

the Republican machine controls the voting machine companies. In this case, it is to their advantage to align with Hillary.

[helderheid]

86. I personally think if there are shenanigans, it isn't her personally calling the shots.

[ourbluenation]

3. love him...his endorsement not so much.

:hi:

[grantcart]

19. in a word he sold out

In an interview in O, The Oprah Magazine, Kennedy hinted that he would run for the position of United States Senator from New York if Hillary were to win the 2008 Presidential election that, saying "If Hillary left the Senate, I might run for that seat." This was seen by Democratic observers as "a blunt warning to possible rivals."<36> The Robert Kennedy Jr. Exploratory Committee is looking to run RFK Jr. for the US Senate seat in the State of Connecticut

[cascadiance]

26. Maybe he's realizing that now it doesn't matter if she's president or not...

That the way she's "making friends" with her campaign now, she'd be pretty challenged to try and stay another term in the Senate anyway and therefore he could run anyway, even if Obama's president then.

[helderheid]

46. I love him. I can't say that.

[H2O Man]

118. Respectfull disagree.

Robert endorsed Senator Clinton because of his experience of working with her on environmental issues. His statement at the time that he came out for her noted that his endorsement was "at this time," rather than written in stone.

Many of us had asked Robert to run for his Dad's seat in 2000. He was considering it, but opted not to. Clinton ran, of course, although at the time he ruled out a run, she was still in the exploratory phase.

Robert had resisted the idea of running for political office for years. The Bush-Cheney years have caused him to reassess this. But I can say in full confidence that his endorsing Clinton was not something done for selfish reasons.

[cascadiance]

120. I'm guessing RFK Jr.'s been having second thoughts recently...

... in light of both candidates' recent comments on strip mining for coal in the Appalachias.

That's a BIG issue for RFK, Jr., and recently Obama's made some comments more against this practice (kind of doing more of a reversal of his earlier support for the "liquified coal" lobby), while Hillary Clinton seemed to tacitly support strip mining with some of her comments. At least she didn't admonish the practice like Obama did.

I do think that perhaps the open Senate seat had something to do with him endorsing Clinton earlier. He saw that as a pathway for him to do something more effective on these issues. He wasn't looking for the Senate seat in my mind just for purely self serving purposes, but to enable him to have a bigger say and more power to fight for these issues he believes in. There is a difference for trying to seek power for power's sake (which I think many of us argue that Clinton is doing), and doing so because one believes one can do more for the American people by attaining this power.

As I note in a reply just above this one, perhaps he realizes that it won't really make much difference if she wins the nomination or not either, since perhaps Clinton is cooking her goose now in any future Senate race too with this messed up campaign that could have the residual effect of turning off New York state voters to her.

Perhaps another good reason to push her to go for the NY state governor's slot. That way, perhaps her group can persuade RFK, Jr. to back off comments like this against her now, in exchange for her appointing him to replace her were she to win the governorship.

[H2O Man]

124. Valid points.

I think that Robert is interested in advancing the environmental cause, and that he recognizes that he may need to become a public servant at a different level than he has as the best environmental attorney in the country. While I would love to see him as a US Senator, I think that he should also be considering his options in an administration position, when Obama takes office.

[cascadiance]

134. Yes, I also had him my pick for Secretary of the Interior too...

Either way he would be good. It would be his call where he feels he can make the most difference with his talents. And I think his heart has always been in the right place, so I welcome whatever decision he makes in that regard.

[nebula]

4. Her only chance to win is to cheat

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Which Primaries And Or Caucuses Did She Steal Votes In?

~

[nebula]

11. Read the article and find out

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. I Read It

I also read they did a partial recount in NH...When they stopped Hillary Clinton had picked up votes...

I think more children need to be exposed to team sports... That's where they learn to win (and) lose gracefully and not blame their shortcomings on extraneous factors...

[nebula]

14. I take Kennedy's word over hers any day

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Did He Say She Stole The Election?

Hillary has won some...Obama has won some... If HRC won more than you like and bruised your fragile psyche you have my sympathy...

[nebula]

25. No, he said she is trying to steal it

do you think elections can't be stolen in this country?
do you actually think Bush won in 2000 and 2004?

don't get your naivety confused with the facts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. I Am A Logical Positivist

~

[nebula]

Try being a realist instead

turning a blind eye to the problem isn't going to make it go away.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. I Only Believe Things That Can Be Independently Verified

If not I would be a Fundy and believe that mountains can clap, people can be turned into salt, and every specie of animal could be put on a boat, etcetera...

[nebula]

45. Who do you think Bobby Kennedy is?

if not an independent source? he has done extensive research on the subject,
and is a Hillary supporter to boot. he has no reason to smear anyone.

it seems you will believe only what you want to believe.

[helderheid]

50. than you are against unverifiable elections?

[stillcool]

65. Like Science?

http://brennan.3cdn.net/a56eba8edf74e9e12e_r2m6b86s2.pdf
http://www.federalelectionreform.com/pdf/Voting%20Systems%20Issue%20Brief.pdf
http://www.votetrustusa.org/pdfs/California_Folder/DieboldReport.pdf
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/info/everest.aspx
http://www.votetrustusa.org/pdfs/Diebold%20Folder/uconn-report-os.pdf

[druidity33]

33. no

but he did say:

"As Bobby said to Bill McKibben back in March, when Bill noted that in his town in Vermont where paper ballots were used Obama was popular, winning 175 to 68:

"He’s popular any place where they count the votes by hand." "



what does that imply?

:shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. If The Premise Is That HRC Is Trying To Steal The Election From BHO

If the premise is that the Clintons are trying to steal the election from BHO than one can infer that the Clintons stole the elections from Bob Dole and Bush Pere...

[helderheid]

49. Clintons aren't. n/t

[Kurovski]

80. Not everything is up to the Clintons.

They don't make these decisions. If the Republican party wants to choose the candidate they'd rather go up against, they do have the means to pursue that goal.

I personally don't believe the Clintons would allow it if they knew it was happening and had proof. If.

[helderheid]

109. get rid of the machines!

[eridani]

117. It may be that places where there are handcounts are demographically different--

--from places where they don't do handcounts. Population size is very relevant here.

[Diane R]

60. She CAN'T steal votes in caucuses....that's why she isn't winning them.

[marlakay]

6. now you got me wondering how they vote

in Indiana and north carolina???

[Kurovski]

16. K&R. (nt)

[grantcart]

18. This says everything you need to know about Jr.

In an interview in O, The Oprah Magazine, Kennedy hinted that he would run for the position of United States Senator from New York if Hillary were to win the 2008 Presidential election that, saying "If Hillary left the Senate, I might run for that seat." This was seen by Democratic observers as "a blunt warning to possible rivals."<36> The Robert Kennedy Jr. Exploratory Committee is looking to run RFK Jr. for the US Senate seat in the State of Connecticut

[Kurovski]

21. GO AHEAD! Throw Bobby Kennedy, Jr., under the bus now,

Calling all BLIND ONES FOLLOWING THE BLONDE---time for another "lalalala Icanthearyou" liberal-toss! C'mon, chop! chop!

Under the wheels with him, ya chowderheads!

[mirrera]

44. LOL...n/t

[helderheid]

53. I love Bobby!

:loveya:

:yourock:

[Kurovski]

74. That won't save him now! Too late!

Once more into the breach...move it, 'neath the wheels he flies, say good-bye to that thick head of hair. We don't need him!

:yourock:

[helderheid]

87. GAHHH!!!

He was bus free for me even when he endorsed Hillary!

[Kurovski]

101. We forgive your past error! Don't scream. It only makes this more difficult!

Say your g'byes and toss him a kiss! Wave a hankie! It's been nice knowin' him! B'bye!

[EFerrari]

57. It's already pretty crowded under here!

:yoiks:

[Kurovski]

76. Na-ah-ah...quit making excuses, off he goes...

As best I can tell, he's just another Mayan maiden sacrificed for our common good and crop yield. That's it! I'm done here! not another word!

[myrna minx]

68. There are so many folks under that bus, I don't know if there's any room left.

:hi: Perhaps if Keith Olbermann would move his elbow a little and Jimmy Carter could swing his hip around, Rachel Maddow could brace herself with her other hand, and if Stephanie Momma Miller would quit clutching that box of wine she could allow Teddy Kennedy to remove his wing tip from Howard Dean's nostril, then I think we could possibly squeeze Bobby Kennedy Jr in. Well, if Randi Rhodes would just roll over to give John Kerry room to remove his knee from Richard Wolf's wrist, then Tom Daschle could do the splits, but now the New York Times' editorial board's hair is caught in David Schuster's wrist band, so I don't know. sigh I think we need to add another bus.

[Kurovski]

77. Another defeatist crop of excuses! No no no! Stop now!

Plenty 'O room near the tail pipe! What, you wanna be next? Don't push me! I'll do it!

:hi:

[stillcool]

70. No room under the bus...

time to move on to the wolves.

[Kurovski]

73. We can open a Soylent Green factory to feed her campaign staff, maybe?

These damn liberals have to be of some use to Hillary.

[redqueen]

121. Hehe.

[catgirl]

24. Thanks for posting this

k & r

[City Lights]

27. K,R&D.

Thanks for posting. :thumbsup:

[Fox Mulder]

28. She seems like she'd cheat to steal an election.

K&R

[HCE SuiGeneris]

30. Hillary has no compunctions about running an underhanded campaign.

This will be the last time I post this, but I feel very strongly...

""Operation Chaos" And "The Kitchen Sink Strategy"

What do they have in common? And, why do they ultimately serve the same purpose... the defeat of Barack Obama and the Democratic Party in the General Election?

The two strategies are geared to "expose" Barack Obama as the scary, aggressive black man. The blatant, and latent, racism that runs through America would rend all of Obama's efforts ineffective should he launch similar attacks as those hurled at him from Hillary. Both Rush and Hillary want nothing more than to harvest that racism to meet their own agendas.

From Rush, one would expect such devious, unprincipled tactics. From Hillary... they are incredibly vile, and they mock the democratic party and its long held adherence to fight on a more level playing field.

Hillary can employ all the Rovian devices she has access to in a divide and conquer strategy and stand immune up on her pedestal knowing that Obama cannot counter with the same stratagems. It is the equivalent of a spoiled brat mercilessly taunting the kid next door with impunity because her unprincipled Dad is "overseeing" the situation as the "adult in charge". It is evil, and it makes my skin crawl.

I am disgusted with these machinations, and even more so with those "Liberals/Progressives" that support such campaigning."

[Cha]

32. Hey, if one of your more prominent

supporter's has to notice this out loud imagine what's goin' on behind the scenes.

[newmajority]

36. Talk about "buyer's remorse". You KNOW Bobby has to regret ever endorsing her

His reasons for doing so were obvious. Hillary's supposed "inevitability" gave him a shot at his father's Senate seat. Now Bobby won't only not get a shot at the seat, he realizes that Hillary ain't who he thought she was (though I would have to question why someone of his obvious intellect and lifelong political knowledge would have EVER thought she was worthy in the first place)

Maybe Bobby will be the one to challenge her in the primary when her Senate term expires in 2012?

[PoliticalAmazon]

38. There's a reason HRC hasn't worked for accountable voting systems....

...You would think that HRC's candidacy would be at risk if it was only the GOPers who were benefiting from vote fraud.

I think Dem leaders like Hillary refused to stand up for our votes because they themselves planned to benefit from vote fraud.

What is really sad that, if Bobby Jr has doubts, that he still supports her.

I mean, is there NO ONE in power in the Democratic Party who will stand up for us?

[goclark]

64. If they are standing they must be midgets

Conyers started to stand and then sat right down.

Of course Obama is standing tall for our votes.

[nolabels]

132. Put it this way

Wouldn't you want a job where you could hardly get fired and at any whim had the ability to tell your boss or client to go jump in the lake?

[AtomicKitten]

41. Only in America do we casually dismiss the glaring discrepancies in exiting polling.

Exit polling is used as an accurate harbinger in fraud of other countries, yet we seem willing to just sweep it under the carpet here in the U.S.

WAKE UP, AMERICA. OUR ELECTIONS ARE BEING HIGH-JACKED WITH BARELY A WHIMPER.

[helderheid]

48. Was the 2004 Election Stolen? ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

Republicans prevented more than 350,000 voters in Ohio from casting ballots or having their votes counted -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House.

Like many Americans, I spent the evening of the 2004 election watching the returns on television and wondering how the exit polls, which predicted an overwhelming victory for John Kerry, had gotten it so wrong. By midnight, the official tallies showed a decisive lead for George Bush -- and the next day, lacking enough legal evidence to contest the results, Kerry conceded. Republicans derided anyone who expressed doubts about Bush's victory as nut cases in ''tinfoil hats,'' while the national media, with few exceptions, did little to question the validity of the election. The Washington Post immediately dismissed allegations of fraud as ''conspiracy theories,''(1) and The New York Times declared that ''there is no evidence of vote theft or errors on a large scale.''(2)

But despite the media blackout, indications continued to emerge that something deeply troubling had taken place in 2004. Nearly half of the 6 million American voters living abroad(3) never received their ballots -- or received them too late to vote(4) -- after the Pentagon unaccountably shut down a state-of-the-art Web site used to file overseas registrations.(5) A consulting firm called Sproul & Associates, which was hired by the Republican National Committee to register voters in six battleground states,(6) was discovered shredding Democratic registrations.(7) In New Mexico, which was decided by 5,988 votes,(8) malfunctioning machines mysteriously failed to properly register a presidential vote on more than 20,000 ballots.(9) Nationwide, according to the federal commission charged with implementing election reforms, as many as 1 million ballots were spoiled by faulty voting equipment -- roughly one for every 100 cast.(10)

The reports were especially disturbing in Ohio, the critical battleground state that clinched Bush's victory in the electoral college. Officials there purged tens of thousands of eligible voters from the rolls, neglected to process registration cards generated by Democratic voter drives, shortchanged Democratic precincts when they allocated voting machines and illegally derailed a recount that could have given Kerry the presidency. A precinct in an evangelical church in Miami County recorded an impossibly high turnout of ninety-eight percent, while a polling place in inner-city Cleveland recorded an equally impossible turnout of only seven percent. In Warren County, GOP election officials even invented a nonexistent terrorist threat to bar the media from monitoring the official vote count.(11)

Any election, of course, will have anomalies. America's voting system is a messy patchwork of polling rules run mostly by county and city officials. ''We didn't have one election for president in 2004,'' says Robert Pastor, who directs the Center for Democracy and Election Management at American University. ''We didn't have fifty elections. We actually had 13,000 elections run by 13,000 independent, quasi-sovereign counties and municipalities.''

MORE >>>>>>>>

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

[OnTheOtherHand]

54. "wretched, sloppy, irresponsible..."

RFK Jr's article tries to argue that the 2004 election was stolen. It does a wretched, sloppy, irresponsible job of making the argument. The shame of it is that I happen to believe, based on the information that I've seen, that the 2004 presidential election was stolen. But RFK Jr's argument is just plain bad: a classic case of how you can use bad math to support any argument you care to make. As a result, I think that the article does just about the worst thing that it could do: to utterly discredit anyone who questions the results of that disastrous election, and make it far more difficult for anyone who wanted to do a responsible job of looking into the question.

http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/06/election_fraud_or_just_bad_mat.php

It isn't all wrong. But big parts sure are enthusiastically wrong.

[helderheid]

55. not buying it. I've studied this for years.

[stillcool]

66. psst...

Is that a regular nay-sayer?

[Kurovski]

112. Regular. And manages to pop up out of the blue for a very specific topic.

You won't see him in a thread on endangered frogs, torture, or what a shitbag George W. Bush is.

But you knew that, didn't you?

[stillcool]

135. I thought so...

The issue seems to bring out the same nay-sayers in concert, and while some posters I recognize immediately, I wasn't sure I was associating the name correctly.

[OnTheOtherHand]

115. and what did you conclude?

If you've concluded that exit polls are accurate, then I think your study has badly misfired.

Your selective credulity works for you, but one problem is, it's impossible to get survey researchers to share it. So when RFK offers up crap exit poll arguments, he pretty much guarantees that any reporter who calls a credible expert will be told, "Eh, not so much." It would be a neat spoiler tactic, except that I don't think he meant it that way. He just likes the excitement of Alternative Science.

The whole article isn't crap -- and not all the crap is exit poll crap.

[stillcool]

67. What do you think of this?

http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Presidential-Election-2004.pdf

[OnTheOtherHand]

116. I think Kathy Dopp is out of her depth

If it were possible to make exit polls accurate by writing lots and lots about them, I'm sure she would have succeeded by now, but not so much.

At greater length, here is what I think. One big problem is that the precincts and states with the biggest exit poll "red shifts" don't tend to be states where Bush did surprisingly well. One can make excuses about that, but it really doesn't make much sense if red shift is a fraud measure.

[EFerrari]

56. Kicked, rec'd and dugg. n/t

[scheming daemons]

58. "He’s popular any place where they count the votes by hand."

That's a damning quote to come from a Hillary SUPPORTER.


Wow.

[OzarkDem]

91. She won in Ohio, which has paper ballots

and now has one of the most secure voting systems in the US.

This argument is ridiculous and RFK, Jr. is misquoted.

[Diane R]

59. Good for him. He's absolutely right; they often defy exit polls and precinct patterns.

[Emit]

61. I have read elsewhere that machine votes favor Hillary

for what it's worth:


The Diebold Effect": Hillary's Votes Higher From Diebold Machines Even Controlling for Demographics (education, income, population, etc)
http://scienceblogs.com/developingintelligence/2008/01/the_diebold_effect_hillarys_vo.php

Clinton Comeback: Courtesy of Diebold
http://billnoxid.wordpress.com/2008/03/06/clinton-comeback-courtesy-of-diebold /

Pretend Primary: Diebold strikes again
http://billnoxid.wordpress.com/2008/01/09/pretend-primary-diebold-strikes-again-2 /

And then there's this:

Voting Technology and
the 2008 New Hampshire Primary1
Michael C. Herron2 Walter R. Mebane, Jr.3 Jonathan N. Wand4
This Draft (4): January 21, 2008 Initial Draft: January 19, 2008
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~wmebane/NH2008HMW.pdf

[ruggerson]

71. This is why I think some of you are certifiable

[Kurovski]

79. Nice post, Dr. Frist.

But even crazy people can be right on the money, or at least on the right track.

[ruggerson]

81. I love it when you call me doctor

[Kurovski]

85. I love that you love it so well.

[dchill]

88. I love it when you call me certifiable.

[Kurovski]

92. What the world needs now is love sweet love.

And a check-up from that handsome Dr. ruggerson.

[helderheid]

83. Too bad the elections with evote machines aren't.

BADUM CHING!

[OzarkDem]

89. You can't reason with them

They believe what they want to believe. :eyes:

My question, if Hillary were really stealing primary elections, why hasn't she locked up the nomination yet?

RFK, Jr. must be embarrassed to have his name mentioned in the article linked in the OP.

[helderheid]

90. see post 5

[OzarkDem]

93. What are you saying?

If you're inferring the GOP is doing it for her, that theory doesn't work either. She won in Ohio where the Dems control the voting now.

[helderheid]

94. That isn't what I'm inferring at all.

http://www.hd.net/drr227.html

[OzarkDem]

95. I understand the problems with touchscreen voting

I'm trying to figure out who you're implying is guilty of rigging those votes.

I presented the argument that Clinton also won in Ohio where paper ballots are used, with few touchscreen counties left (in rural areas).

So who are you implying is using the touchscreen voting machines to help Clinton win?

[helderheid]

96. I'm not implying that anyone is rigging the votes. I'm only pointing out there seems to be a pattern

with the touch screen in favor of Clinton. Had the pattern held true for Obama, I'd point that out as well. Without meaningful audits, we cannot know for certain what votes count. It strikes me as concerning this pattern. If manipulation is at play, I would never accuse the Clinton campaign of it.

[OzarkDem]

98. Except when there isn't a pattern

like in Ohio.

[helderheid]

99. like in ohio?

[newmajority]

97. The Democrats? Or the DLC??

Why has the DLC always laughed off the problems of electro-fraud voting? Why were they in such a rush to abandon Ohio in 2004, so the Greens and the Libertarians had to do the investigating. Why did Ted Fucking Strickland promise to "deliver" Ohio to Hillary just like Ken Blackwell promised to deliver it to Chimp?

[truedelphi]

113. Bev Harris said in spring 2004 that wherever the vote were hand

Counted, then you got John Dean.

And whenever it was machine counted you got Kerry. This is not something new that the DLC is unaware of.

[helderheid]

100. I'm going to bed. See you tomorrrow.

[Kurovski]

102. Wait! I'm coming too!

Want some hot chocolate!? It's thirsty work tossing Dems into the under carriage of vehicles!

[helderheid]

103. FINE!!!!

:eyes: C'mon...

[Kurovski]

104. Hold on! I have to get my footie pajamas! Don't rush me!

Wait! Dropped my toothbrush! Who can I throw away next?! Read me a story! Michael Moore?!! Michael Moore for tomorrow's bus-toss!!!

[helderheid]

105. GODDAMN YOU!!!!

:eyes: :rofl:

[Kurovski]

108. Can I leave this light in? I need a light on! Do you have a fan?

Not a big fan! Just a little one?! What time...should...weee.....ZZZZzzzzzzzzzz :boring:

[helderheid]

119. Glad you got some rest, but MAN do you SNORE!!!

[Kurovski]

127. I had meat loaf last night.

The sounds you heard were not exclusively composed of snoring.

[helderheid]

129. !!!

:wow:

:rofl:

[quantass]

111. LOL! Funny min-sub-thread you guys got going.

[helderheid]

123. Gotta laugh! :)

[helderheid]

107. HEY! This needs only 10x the recs as the other thread! Help a girl out!

WOMAN!

[TexanDem]

110. Sounds like RFK Jr has some "buyer's remorse."

[cui bono]

125. Even if she has nothing to do with it, the Rpubs could be rigging the votes.

I've considered this already myself.

Plus with all her talk about wanting all the votes count, she doesn't care about not having all the votes the caucuses represent count. just the ones that help her seem to really matter. She is disingenuous at best, and this article intimates what the worst just might be.

[helderheid]

128. That thought has crossed my mind too, re: Republicans rigging it. n/t

[VotesForWomen]

139. i feel sorry for you people, but i guess irrational hatred gives you a sense of purpose. nt

[Kurovski]

140. And since feeling sorry for us seems to fulfill your sense of purpose, we're simpatico!

Life is a beautiful circle of caring. A wondrous puzzle of love where all the pieces fit!

[helderheid]

141. kick

[ingac70]

142. "He’s popular any place where they count the votes by hand."

Not this shit again! We have got to get this shit right before November or McCain will cheat his way into office like Bush.