Why I prefer Obama -- not because I think he's "all that", but simply because he's not Clinton.

[scarletwoman]

(I wrote this as reply #107 in another thread, but I decided I wanted to say this more prominently)

It's apparent to me, as someone who rarely makes a foray into GD-P, that a lot of Hillary supporters seem to be relying on some form of, "Well, YOU guys are such idiots that you think Obama is GOD!!!11!" as the standard rebuttal to the points being made. Without actually, you know, addressing the arguments that have been presented.

I prefer Obama strictly by default. His greatest asset to me is the fact that he's not Hillary Clinton. I also seeing him as having another asset as well: all the young people and new voters he's attracted.

I also think "progressives" who think Obama is going to be their new champion ARE, in fact, deluded -- but with a big "but".

The "big but" (yes, I know -- if I were really cool I'd imbed some audio/video file here with the classic hit, "I Love Big Butts". Please provide it in your own imagination, as I do not have the means to do so.), is the fact that there a lot of people who perceive themselves as being part of a "movement".

This could be a very good thing, if alert and intelligent leftists have the energy and stragetic savvy to take advantage of it, and thus form an effective force for pressuring Obama into moving left.

Since Obama is nowhere NEAR as entangled in the DC Power Structure (which is NOT to say that he isn't at least partly entangled -- else, he would not have made it this far) as is Clinton -- this is another good reason to wish for an Obama victory. The wall that keeps the People out is not quite as solid.

In any case; what's really happening is a pretty serious power struggle within the power structure of the Democratic party. It's the struggle between the DLC corporate branch and those who are outside it. For this reason alone I feel that it's imperative to oppose HRC.

If Obama is our only means of doing so, then Obama it is, for me.

But not because I think he's a "Messiah". Only because I'm hoping that the masses of people who've gotten all excited him about will keep paying attention and raise holy hell when he starts betraying them (as he will no doubt do).

sw

[Catch22Dem]

I think there have been a number of folks in the ABC camp for a long time

Since 2006 when it became 100% clear she was running.

[scarletwoman]

2. Yes. That is one of those things that gives me hope. (nt)

[Cha]

41. I've been there since October 10, 2002 but

since defending Obama from clinton supporters on DU last year I became firmly FOR Obama and not the least because of the Amazing Speech he wrote and gave on Oct 2, 2002 stating his reasons for not going into Iraq when he was a State Senator in Illinois.

Closing paragraph..

"The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not -- we will not -- travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain."


The beginning..
http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/02/remarks_of_illinois_state_sen.php

[olkaz]

93. My wife and I are seated firmly in the ABC camp.

I remember her saying two years ago...

"Bush, Clinton, Bush... Clinton? They could at least give us the illusion of a Democracy!"

[scarletwoman]

95. Americans have been so conditioned to be in denial of the Class War, that they're incapable

of recognizing it, even when it's staring them right in the face.

As you said, "Bush, Clinton, Bush... Clinton?" We need to coin a new slogan: "It's the Ruling Class, stupid!"

sw

[cyndensco]

101. After the 2004 election

I heard the scariest thing. Not only would it be bush/clinton/bush/clinton, but jeb was being groomed to take the seat after hillary - his bro even sent him to help with the tsunami to get some press. At that point, I was solidly ABC.

[thunder rising]

1. All that and I'll raise you Terry McAuliffe praising Faux Snooze

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbJVkIzKq64

[scarletwoman]

4. You don't have to raise it, I posted 2 years ago about Murdoch throwing a fundraiser for her.

Only the most ignorant or hopelessly deluded could NOT see that for what it actually means.

[Zhade]

48. They're the same kind that deny the video evidence that clinton lied about Tuzla.

They're literally choosing "me" over "your lying eyes"!

[blm]

3. Exactly - it's been open government Dems vs Closed government Dems for me for YEARS.

This is the battle that has been brewing for years, decades actually - and the difference is that it is OUT IN THE OPEN now. Before, the Clinton wing of the party had to undermine other Dems behind the scenes - this campaign is forcing them to play their hands publicly.

Democrats should re-assess what went on in 2000 and 2004 and how Gore and Kerry were essentially targeted for all blame, and think about the level of deceits we are witnessing from this entire group.

[scarletwoman]

5. Thank you for saying this so well!

I really appreciate it!

:hug:
sw

[Zhade]

49. Which reminds me - I was wrong to hate on Kerry so much.

If it helps, I did vote for him.

[scarletwoman]

52. I voted for him too, of course. Not happily - because Kucinich was the only one speaking the truth.

But I worked hard to get Kerry elected nevertheless, once it became apparent that he was the only option for Dems. I did phone banks, donated money -- all that stuff.

No way will I EVER do that for Clinton.

[MBS]

89. thank you, blm

I hate what's going on right now, and I fervently hope that Obama can clinch the race in a way, SOON, that will stop the Clintons' appalling "low road", right-wing-talking-point tactics; but I am glad, at least, that people can finally now SEE what's been happening, and how it affected both the Gore and Kerry campaigns.

[billyoc]

6. No more DLC. Ever. nt

[scarletwoman]

7. I want to sow salt in the fields of the DLC. (nt)

[billyoc]

11. DLC delende est. nt

[scarletwoman]

13. Has a lovely ring to it... (nt)

[Lisa0825]

42. My opinion of the DLC is in my sig

:evilgrin:

[RC]

8. I agree with you. The good candidates, such as they were, have dropped out.

And I don't think I am all that radical for wanting the criminals in prison and our World to be safe again.

[scarletwoman]

15. Of course you're radical! The power structure doesn't allow its members to be imprisoned.

Only radicals think the law should apply equally to all.

sw

[RC]

54. Well, in that case...

I guess I might be a radical. But I don't have long hair or any tie-dyed t-shirts.

[scarletwoman]

55. You have your critical thinking intact. That's pretty darn radical these days. (nt)

[RC]

58. Yeah, I know. The problem is not too many other people do.

At least around here. (Here being both DU and ND) We're a minority. Obama will have to do till we figure a way to get rid of the criminals..

[scarletwoman]

59. You're my neighbor! Minnesotan, here.

I like how you put it: "Obama will have to do.."

Thanks for responding.

sw

[HooptieWagon]

9. It started out that way with me - ABC.

But as I've become more familiar with him I am fairly statisfied he would represent me well. Yes, I wish he was more progressive, but I think his positions are more pragmatic - better to get some of what I want than none. I'm hoping he can deliver some change - maybe he will disappoint. But with either HilLiary or McCain I know what we're getting and I don't like it, so i'd much rather put my faith in Obama.

[scarletwoman]

12. I think it's a good thing to vote for mitigation of the worst.

I don't think of Obama as "progressive" by any stretch, but the fact that he attracts progressives creates a better potential for moving things leftward.

I'll accept "pragmatic" over "totally bought", it's a start.

sw

[scarletwoman]

10. C'mon, people! Give us Obama-supporters-by-default a little love! (nt)

[Lou Queb]

14. Here...I just wonder why the HRC supporters are so silent

I agree with you, every time this argument is brought up, no one among them tries to make counter-arguments. I would like a Clinton supporter to jump in and give his/her take.

[scarletwoman]

17. I'll be happy to argue with BOTH sides!

:D

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

92. As a Clinton supporter/delegate I welcome the discussion. And, I have the utmost respect for the OP,

as a solid DUer and Democrat.

I've stated my reasons for supporting her and have never denigrated Sen. Obama is doing so. I'm always listening to those whom I respect, whether or not I agree with them.

I have no reason to come here and "argue", especially when the OP is being sincere and not hateful. She has many reservations about Clinton, as I do about Obama. We're still both Democrats and we can both be proud that we opposed Bush from day one. SW does all Obama supporters proud.

:loveya: ScarletWoman. :loveya:

[scarletwoman]

96. Thank you for your kind and generous post.

Until now, I've studiously avoided GD-P for months, so I haven't seen your stated reasons for supporting Clinton. And it really doesn't matter, I respect you as an honest and forthright person, and I'm certain you reached your point of view through careful consideration.

Thank you again, I wish you well always,
sw
:hug:

[Guaranteed]

31. Been totally with ya a long time. nt

[scarletwoman]

47. I'm very grateful to know this. Thank you. (nt)

[Triana]

16. After Edwards was out, I was on the fence, then Hillary's behavior began to really disgust me...

...the big 'R' in her modus operandi started showing. A LOT.

That sent me to Obama. I guess that can be defined as 'ABC' - but I didn't start there. Started with Edwards.

[scarletwoman]

18. Well, I started out with Kucinich -- in 2004 and again in 2008. Then Edwards, after DK was out.

But I've NEVER wanted Clinton, and she just keeps confirming why.

sw

[DarkTirade]

29. You're not the only one.

Obama's certainly not my favorate... just less objectionable to me.

Although both are, of course, far preferably to any candidate the R side could have ever thrown at us.

Right now I see the three main candidates in the presidential race as: 'slight evil™' vs. 'slightly more evil™' vs. 'complete and utter destruction of everything decent in this world, now with extra puppy kicking!™'.

So if my first choice out of those three doesn't end up with the nom, I think I'll settle for the second.

[cascadiance]

19. At the risk of sounding like a Rush fan, "Ditto!"

[scarletwoman]

21. Thank you!

:D

[book_worm]

20. I think Obama is a very talented guy who has good judgement

and think that Hillary often demonstrates poor judgement and can't bring people together to get things done.

[scarletwoman]

22. I think he's talented, too. I'd like him to be wise as well, but I'm honestly not so sure. (nt)

[mirrera]

23. You have no idea how right on you are...n/t

[scarletwoman]

26. Well, I have to say that I *hoped* I was being "right on".

:D

[mirrera]

27. You are so lucky to KNOW it.

I just turned 51 and saying "right on" makes me feel young... :)

[scarletwoman]

32. Thank you for making me laugh! I'm 58, btw.

I really love being sorta "old". A person witnesses a LOT of history in half a century!

:hug:
sw

[slipslidingaway]

24. Agree and thank you, also I would like to emphasize a point you

made about raising hell, there is no time like the present to let your voice be heard if you think he has made an error in his statements.


"I also think "progressives" who think Obama is going to be their new champion ARE, in fact, deluded -- but with a big "but".


The "big but" .... is the fact that there a lot of people who perceive themselves as being part of a "movement".

This could be a very good thing, if alert and intelligent leftists have the energy and stragetic savvy to take advantage of it, and thus form an effective force for pressuring Obama into moving left...

...But not because I think he's a "Messiah". Only because I'm hoping that the masses of people who've gotten all excited him about will keep paying attention and raise holy hell when he starts betraying them (as he will no doubt do).

[scarletwoman]

28. I'm SO glad you picked up on that! Thank you muchly!

It's so hard to write out these sorts of thoughts. I can't tell you how happy I am that you understood my attempt!

Thank you again!
sw

[slipslidingaway]

35. You said it loud and clear, at least to me anyway...

Thank you!

:)

[McCamy Taylor]

25. Just curious. If the Clintons controll the Dem party where are their $$$ and SDs?

[scarletwoman]

34. They control a FACTION. A Faction that has been fighting for control of the entire Dem Party.

And that Faction lost votes for the Dem Party BIGTIME from 1994 on until 2006.

This Faction is still fighting for total control, in the person of HRC. I am of a mind to oppose them any way I can.

sw

[blm]

87. They controlled the INFRASTRUCTURE from 1993-2005. Are you proud of how they treated it?

They used the grip they DID have on the party to undermine any other Dem who came forward to oppose Bush. Enough Dems saw the infrastructure problems that by early 2005 we could use Dean's chairmanship of the party to loosen TeamClinton's deathgrip.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. I agree that Obama is hardly the progressive knight in shining armor.

But, as you said:

"This could be a very good thing, if alert and intelligent leftists have the energy and stragetic savvy to take advantage of it, and thus form an effective force for pressuring Obama into moving left."

JFK, despite his faults, was perceived as very liberal. And helped launch a movement toward the left of a generation that sought new ways of transforming the country beyond the rigid limitations of a corrupt system.

Obama, though a "moderate" is perceived by a new generation of similar mind.

Hillary is the politics-as-usual candidate writ large. Busily pandering to the right in the same way her husband "triangulated" the party and country to the right.

Obama has, at least, the potential to stir the winds of change beyond what he says he stands for.

Forgot to add the - :applause: and K&R

[scarletwoman]

33. Thank you for the great post!

Obama has, at least, the potential to stir the winds of change beyond what he says he stands for.

Very well said!

It's not Obama himself -- not by a long shot, actually -- it's the people who have been inspired to get involved.

OUR task -- we radical leftists -- is to plug into that desire to "get involved" and walk these people even further into understanding and involvedness.

sw

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. Actually, I think that events will move the people to the left.

Obama would open the door to change that the people will demand as the crises now facing the country, and the world, develop.

He appears to be open to suggestions that step outside the tried and true failures of the right and politics-as-usual.

[scarletwoman]

38. Seems to be working in South America!

Obama ain't no Lugo. But hopefully there's some percentage of his supporters who are willing keep pushing to the left.

sw

[VotesForWomen]

104. and people who think he is will be sadly disappointed. nt

[scarletwoman]

109. Which is why I advocate in my OP that progressives and leftists work on keeping these people

energized and motivated into something larger than electoral politics.

It doesn't matter who ends up in the White House, we the People have a HUGE task before us in wresting control of this country out of the hands of the Ruling Class.

The work sure doesn't end in January, 2009.

sw

[ms liberty]

37. K&R. I agree. n/t

[scarletwoman]

39. Thank you! I was hoping it wasn't just me. (nt)

:D

[scarletwoman]

40. Kick -- because I am an elitist. (nt)

[knixphan]

43. Kick for death of the DLC!

[scarletwoman]

56. It's our best hope! Thank you! (nt)

[gsaguyCLW54]

44. Enjoy McCain.....because thats what you are going to get

[scarletwoman]

45. How exciting! A traveler from the future!

Now I'm worried. Are you saying that if HRC doesn't win the Democratic nomination that McCain will win the General Election?

Please elucidate!

[Cha]

63. We're getting Obama..I don't know

why your crystal ball says different.

[stevietheman]

107. Well, Obama is the nominee... so the GE winner is either Obama or McCain.

Whoever wins, that's the fair result in November, even if Democrats lose. But it's better to lose with the winner than lose with the loser.

[scarletwoman]

112. I'm not so inclined to count my chickens before they've hatched.

Clinton is fighting this as a death match. She'll totally destroy Obama if that's what it takes for her to win. And it just might work.

[Zhade]

46. You NAILED it. I feel the same exact way, and clinton's constant lies only solidify it.

I never supported her, but it was because I don't support her policies, most of which are WAY more conservative when you actually examine them. Then the lies started, and the undeniable proof that she lied was revealed. Tuzla. NAFTA. The mother who died IN the hospital.

Obama is far from perfect, but I feel we can work with him if we push hard enough. clinton? I doubt she'd even LISTEN to anyone outside her royal court.

Besides, after TWENTY YEARS out of my 32, can we get the fuck away from the b*s*/clinton cycle? When people say they want change, they don't mean a transfer to ANOTHER family dynasty!

[scarletwoman]

50. "When people say they want change, they don't mean a transfer to ANOTHER family dynasty!" Thank you!

It's like, C'MON don't you get what's really going on?!?!?

The Ruling Class puts on this big show and we're all supposed to get all aroused by it. Like American Idol.

Our only hope is to get BEYOND the American Idol mentality -- and make a claim on our OWN power.

sw

[bvar22]

51. Thanks. My sentiments exactly. I stand with you.

I also stand with the Feingold, Kennedy, Kerry, wing of the Democratic Party.

They can have Carville, McAuliff, Zimmermen, and Fox News.

The potential of an Obama administration gets my vote over the certainty of a Hillary (DLC) administration.

[scarletwoman]

53. Many thanks! Coming from you, it means a lot.

Thank you again.

:hug:
sw

[scarletwoman]

57. ... Yeah, I'm shameless. Kicking again. (nt)

[AnnieBW]

60. I hear ya there!

I didn't support Obama at first. Or second. Or even third. But, when JE dropped out, he defaulted to my choice. I think that Hillary Clinton has done an admirable job as Senator from New York. However, I just don't want the Clinton Circus back in town. And she's confirming everything that the Hillary-Haters have ever said about her.

[scarletwoman]

61. "...I just don't want the Clinton Circus back in town." Amen! (nt)

[scarletwoman]

62. Am I a bad person if I kick this again?

[Kurovski]

74. No.

Am I? :kick:

[scarletwoman]

76. You are the best person EVAH!

:loveya:

[roseBudd]

64. I think progessives need to view an Obama prsidency as a generational shift...

The new young voters he has drawn will if past trends are an indicator, will be voting Democratic for the rest of their lives. It is going to take more than a term or two and Obama's popularity will make it easier for Republicans to work with our cacaus. Cooperating with HRC will bring constituent ire.

[scarletwoman]

65. That's what I hope is the potential.

What old people like me need to do is connect the younger generation with the truth about the history we have experienced.

sw

[Kurovski]

66. K&R

I agree on many of your points, and not just because I have to. :evilgrin:

For many years I can recall efforts and discussions to bring in, to involve young voters, and Obama is getting them interested just by being himself--or at least enough of himself + politician to do that.

He has a bit of JFK in that regard. I'm not in his thrall either, though I wouldn't toss him out of bed for eating crackers. And neither would you!

He's not yet been absorbed into the brothel of Washington politics, so we may get a few good years out of him yet.

As I've said a few times here before, I can only be pleasantly surprised. Who knows, he may have the makings of a great president. At least he's not damaged goods in the way so many are.

He may end up helping us to transform politics in the way Al Gore had hoped we could. But I ain't holding my breath.

I commend your bravery for entering GDP. I know you find it not all that much to your liking, so I promise not to yell manically at you until the third-or-so post.

[scarletwoman]

67. Wait... Are you saying that you want to "yell maniacally" at me?

I wanna see that. }(

Thanks for not only giving this a kick, but for writing such a smart and handsome post. (even though you HAD to)

All I really want is for people to wake up to how much they are being screwed by the Ruling Class (and I don't mean "screwed" in a good way).

It's not Obama that I'm putting my hopes on, it's the people who are projecting on him all the true good parts of their own deepest longings. I want those people to believe in and cherish those longings -- enough to keep fighting for them once they realize that no one is going to fight for them as hard as they can fight for themselves.

And entering GD-P is not so much an act of bravery as it is an act of reckless abandon. Something I'm actually quite practiced at.

:D :loveya:
sw

[Kurovski]

71. I knew that.

And Al Gore said it's up to us. "... once they realize that no one is going to fight for them as hard as they can fight for themselves."


We definitely need new blood in the party. I'm very thirsty.

:loveya:

[scarletwoman]

73. New blood and new thinking.

As a "Boomer", I feel grossly misunderstood and very much unfairly demonized.

But also, since I'm so farking old, I just don't have the energy or patience to waste on people who are determinedly ignorant. And if the young folks want to push their way in, I'm all for it. I'd love to just sit in my rocking chair on the porch and let the young'uns take up the fight.

Plus, I'm thirsty, too.

:D :hug: :loveya:
sw

[EFerrari]

68. That's nearly exactly what I think, too.

He may still be teachable, reachable.

[scarletwoman]

69. Thanks. The "not entrenched" part is actually worth something, imho. (nt)

[EFerrari]

70. Sure, because if you manage not to be entrenched, the greater good

still means something. :hug:

[walldude]

72. Well said...

Can't speak for anyone else but knowing myself the way I do I'll probably start bitching the day after inauguration. Pelosi didn't even get to switch offices before I was whining about her.

Hillary supporters seem to think that because I feel that voting for Obama over Hillary is in my best interest that I'm some kind of nut. If the race were Hillary and McCain, Hillary would be in my best interest, it's pretty simple. The way I look at it, the next President is screwed. The next 4 years are going to be clean-up and damage control. It's going to be all about compromises. I'm looking for the candidate who will lean the compromises in my favor. I believe that's Obama. If Hillary ends up the candidate it'll be her. There is no brainwashing, cult worship or mind control, just me and my desire to get some health care for my family.

[scarletwoman]

75. Yep, the next four years are going to be painful, no matter what. (nt)

[expada]

77. By that logic, you like McCain

He's not Clinton either.

[scarletwoman]

78. If I actually thought that you valued logic, I might bother further explaining what I meant.

But I'm pretty confident that I stated my position clearly enough in my OP, so I'll just give your response the attention it deserves.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

[expada]

80. You said "simply because he's not Clinton"

"simply because" is used when a person is citing the only reason behind his/her conclusion.

If I say that I'm buying a car "simply because" it has good gas mileage, it means that no other factors influenced my purchase. You could have said "partly because he's not Clinton.

I have just taken you to school.

I know logic. You don't.

[scarletwoman]

82. Well give yourself a big gold stick-on star, then.

Of course, since I am a Democrat speaking to presumeably fellow Democrats, it never occurred to me that I would need to specify that voting for a Republican was not part of the equation.

But please do cherish your tawdry little "gotcha" -- you earned it fair and square.

[Larkspur]

79. I share your opinion

I am basically an Anybody But Hillary and Republican voter. Obama just happened to be the only viable non-Hillary candidate left by CT's Feb. 5 primary.

[scarletwoman]

81. I really do appreciate hearing from others who feel like I do.Thanks. (nt)

[Psyop Samurai]

83. Oh good... a thread with an authentic narrative!

Thank you, scarletwoman..., I'm with you all the way.

[scarletwoman]

84. Thank YOU! I'm glad you liked it. (nt)

[blm]

90. I checked back to see you are gaining more fans.

heh

[scarletwoman]

97. Thanks for the laugh!

I'm like everyone else here; I do, of course, find satisfaction in seeing something I post get favorable attention. At least it appears that what I wrote didn't really piss anyone off, for which I'm glad.

:D
sw

[blm]

117. a lot of us saw our own process in your post.... I have to laugh at those who think

Obama is worshiped by a cult. I believe most of his DU supporters now see him as the last chance to stop the Bush-Clinton-Bush cycle that has put fascism on the fast path the last 3 decades.

That he and his DC inner circle supporters are advocates of open government and his opponent is a protector of closed government is all I need to inform my vote.

[Kurovski]

85. Kick.

You should post in GDP more often.

It feels a little calmer now. :-)

[scarletwoman]

86. Calmer?

And here I've always prided myself on getting people excited...

;)

[Kitty Herder]

88. I feel exactly the same way. nt

[scarletwoman]

98. I knew there had to be other people who feel like this. Thank you so much for the affirmation! (nt)

[knixphan]

91. kick for people-power over corporate power!

[TahitiNut]

94. We're of very similar minds on this, luv. Again.

Go figure. :silly:

:hug: :loveya:

[scarletwoman]

99. Ah,TN, old friend! It's been 6+ years of sharing minds with you!

I'm SO glad you're still around! :loveya:

If I can think like YOU, then I must be smart! :D

:* :hug:
sw

[Kitsune]

100. You have articulated my position exactly.

Honestly, I didn't like Hillary before, but now I find myself getting behind Obama simply because Hillary needs to be run completely out of politics. She is damaging the party and throwing into contention an election that should, by rights, have been an absolute Democratic landslide. After this disgraceful campaign she has no place calling herself a Democrat.

Obama is only attractive to me by dint of his name not being "Hillary Clinton." He was essentially my second-to-last choice in the entire mess of Democratic candidates, but by comparison to Clinton, he is fan-goddamn-tastic.

Honestly, this whole clusterfuck just needs to END. I never thought I, as an avowed politics junkie, would say that, but this has gone way too far.

[scarletwoman]

102. Thank you. I wish this would end, too. But I don't think it will end until Clinton

has rendered Obama limb from limb, torn out his heart, and drunk his blood. She will then raise up her bloodstained hands and claim victory, and the Democratic leadership will bow down before her.

And we, the People, will be in for many more years of being milked and slaughtered like the Ruling Class's herd of cattle that we are.

sw

[VotesForWomen]

103. sounds like you've been brainwashed by 16 years of Clinton-hating propaganda. nt

[scarletwoman]

106. LOL! You obviously don't know me -- ask anyone who DOES know me how brainwashed I am.

I do think it's a bit rude to accuse a complete stranger of being "brainwashed", however. You know absolutely nothing about my last 16 years.

On the other hand, thanks for the laugh! :D

sw

[blm]

118. Sounds like YOU'VE been snowed by the Bush-Clinton dog and pony shows of the last 2 decades.

http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

If TRUTH had mattered more to Clintons than protecting the secrecy and privilege of the Bushes and their powerful cronies, you wouldn't be seeing posts against them now, would you?

[Solon]

105. This movement of his could go either way...

The big problem is that he may increase the risk of young people becoming apolitical when he starts betraying them. They aren't stupid, but they may be a little naive, and when he starts acting like a normal politician again, they may feel he betrayed their trust, and simply not participate in the system anymore.

This is why I really don't like this "movement" talk, its too volatile, especially when its centered on a politician. This could backfire, badly, and leftist politics may be set back by it.

ON EDIT: Another problem is the system we live under, Obama would be largely immune from one type of pressure, not voting for him again, because there are no choices, real alternatives, that can win the Presidency. The only alternative is worse.

[scarletwoman]

108. Well, as I attempted to say in my OP, the movement needs to be nurtured into something NOT centered

on Obama. The betrayal is inevitable, we should be thinking about how to build a sustainable structure outside of electoral politics.

As an example, we need to do a much bigger, better, louder offensive against the corporate media. This is a perfect opportunity to educate people about how much they are being conned and manipulated. You've got a bunch of highly energized motivated people who are seeing with their own eyes the kind of shit that's going down (flag pins? WTF!). It's a great teachable moment.

That's the kind of thing I'm thinking about. Thank you for your comment.

sw

[Solon]

110. Probably the best thing that can happen is for them to join current organizations...

and increase participation in them, organizations like Greenpeach, Moveon.org, DSA, People's Global Action, Public Citizen, IWW, etc. Hell, I'd even want them to join either the Democratic party, and try to lurch it even a little bit leftward, or join an already leftist party, such as the Socialist Party, USA, Progressive Party, or even the Greens. Probably have them change some of these parties to focus more on local and state elections, to turn them into viable third parties, rather than just spoilers for the two centrist parties.

If anything, this would put a lot more pressure on the Democratic party than what is possible under our current two party system. If we can break that, then who knows what is possible.

[scarletwoman]

111. Whatever keeps them motivated and active -- that's the important thing. (nt)

[Catherina]

114. Obama, unlike Clinton, will owe his victory to the people

that guarantees we'll have 4 years where he has to keep us happy if he wants to be re-elected.

There's one other thing about Obama that I think is very important. Just as Bush ushered in 8 years of evil by appealing to people's baser senses, Obama will, oh yes he will, usher in 8 years of good by appealing to people's higher instincts.

This is a once in a lifetime chance for us. Michelle was very firm with him that this would be his one shot and she won't put the family through this bullshit again.

I agree with you on naivete but I prefer that to the bitter, ugly, selfish, obliterating cynicism of the movement behind Clinton.

[Solon]

115. I don't know about that...

as I said in another post, the ONE point is that Obama can, at the very least, always get our votes, what's the alternative, voting for the Republicans? After the election, there would be almost no pressure on him to deliver on anything he promises, and that's one of the flaws of a two party system. At most, there could be a primary challenge on him during the mid-term elections, but when was the last time an incumbent President was unseated from his own party's nomination for re-election?

[Catherina]

113. I'm too late to recommend but you speak for many of us n/t

[Eurobabe]

116. I preferred Joe Biden

I don't think Obama is GOD, but I will defend him to the death -- because I despise Hillary and Bill Clinton and all that they have done, and what they stand for.