Did you know that Obama netted more delegates out of Idaho than Hillary did out of Pennsylvania?

[JackORoses]

http://election.cbsnews.com/campaign2008/d_delegateScorecard.shtml

Obama won Idaho 15 to 3 ... a margin of 12 delegates

Hillary won PA 82 to 73 ... a margin of 9 delegates (could be as many as 12 as there are 3 unaccounted for in this total)

This is why Obama will be our Nominee.
His Team has planned a brilliant 50 state strategy, and they are executing it to perfection.

What good is winning Big States if you only gain a handful of delegates?
Answer: None at all.

Hillary has been outmatched and outsmarted.

What you are seeing is the defeat of the Old Democratic Political Method and the birth of something new and vibrant.
We are witnessing a metamorphosis.
Keep your eyes open wide.

[guyanakoolaid]

1. But Idaho just has potatoes, not huge infrastructure, so their votes should count less.

:sarcasm:

[Taxmyth]

2. Do you think he would win Idaho in the General Election?

I don't. But I don't think Senator Clinton would either.

[johnnydrama]

3. no, he won't win Idaho, but...

Looking at a few polls, it shows McCain +13 over OBama, +36 over Clinton. Ok, so that's a loss for Obama.

But there are plenty of other Democrats running in Idaho that day, and the difference in +13 and +36 could be the difference in a democrat winning or losing.

[madrchsod]

36. polls at this time are worthless

[Zhade]

39. Indeed. Coattails cannot be discounted!

And she brings none.

[demwing]

4. That's like asking if you can win the Superbowl playing by World Series rules.

You have different rules and different strategies for different games.

[tekisui]

5. You are one worn out one-note.

Give it up. Your attempts are sad.

[Taxmyth]

7. Don't cry, little one

There's no reason to be sad. Everything will be all right.

[tekisui]

10. Tell me of your tears in June.

[Zhade]

40. Tears of joy that clinton the proven liar finally accepts her loss? Sounds awesome!

Should we stock up on tissue for you?

You'll need it.

[gsaguyCLW54]

12. yeah, but she can win FLA, OH, MI, PA

[JackORoses]

14. This is not the General Election.

It is the Democratic Primaries.
This system is designed so that every Democrat nationwide to has input. Regardless of whether their state is Red or Blue.
This is the one chance those Red State Dems get to influence the Election, and you would take that away from them?

If you cannot understand why their votes are just as important as a Pennsylvanian's then you do not understand what it truly means to be a Democrat.

[Major Hogwash]

44. Obama has coattails, and Hillary doesn't. We could get a Dem Senator AND a Dem Rep with Obama.

But, not with Hillary.
She's a lightning rod.
She's a hate magnet for Republicans.
They would come out and vote against her in the General in a New York minute.
They would vote for a dead dog before they would vote for Hillary.
So, without Hillary, they'll stay home in droves.

They are disillusioned by Bush, and the war, and they are demoralized.
They can't even raise money!!!!

We have a good chance, not a great chance, but a good chance of getting the first Democrat voted to the Senate this year since 1980.

Another Democrat is running against Bill Sali for the House of Representatives.
This would be the first time that we would have a Democrat for a US Congressman since 1994.
Representative Bill Sali is so bad for the Republicans, he can't even raise money for his own re-election to his 2nd term.
Sali is such an extremist that the state GOP party has abandoned him - and he will face multiple opponents in the primary next month.
The odds are - he won't even win his own primary re-election bid.
Pretty bad situation when the GOP party hates their own Congressmen, but he got in because of a 6-way split among better people and wound up their primary winner - to everyone's surprise and disgust.

The national GOP has Sali listed as 1 of the top 10 most threatened seats for the GOP party in the House of Representatives and they have vowed to help him raise money.
But, he has to win the primary on his own first.

Some of the Republicans have had enough of Bush, and they want to vote for Obama to make history.
And if enough of them stay home - we can take back a seat in the House of Representatives, a seat in the Senate, and the White House - all in 1 year!!

Who's afraid of hope?

[VotesForWomen]

72. what in the heck makes you think he has coattails? most people never heard of the guy a year ago. n

[Major Hogwash]

82. Because of how I just explained it.

And the fact is - Hillary isn't going to be the nominee.

[frogcycle]

6. Did you know the Rockies won 21 of their last 22 games last year?

Until the World Series, that is, when the Red Sox swept them.

[joeybee12]

85. Whoo-hoo! n/t

[bigwillq]

8. Wow.

That is very interesting. Thanks for pointing that out.

:hi:

[gsaguyCLW54]

9. and did you know that he'll never win idaho in November

[msallied]

17. What does that have to do with ANYTHING regardin the PRIMARY??

[VotesForWomen]

73. don't you think dems should consider who can actually win the GE when choosing the nominee? nt

[papau]

18. Clinton has taken the all state popular vote lead after PA - leads Obama by 122,728

After PA Popular Vote (w/FL & MI) 14,993,348 47.4% 15,116,076 47.8% lead held by Clinton +122,728 +0.4%

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

[Zhade]

42. ANOTHER CLINTONITE LIE. FL AND MI DON'T COUNT.

Just discounting this dishonest post.

[EFerrari]

48. No matter how many times you post that, it's still wrong. n/t

[JackORoses]

21. the voices of those Idahoan Dems are just as important as yours.

That is the beauty of the Democratic Primary System.

[Major Hogwash]

45. Are you from Idaho? Probably not, I am. And Obama has a chance that Hillary doesn't.

I don't know why people that don't live here put Idaho down all the time.
You really should come out and visit us sometime.

Seriously, we need the vacation dollars.

LoL

[VotesForWomen]

75. i live in SD; yeah, O may get a few more % points than hill, but there's no way in hell he's going t

to win the state, and i'll bet money he won't win idaho either. care to take that bet?

[Major Hogwash]

83. Actually, since you're not a psychic, you can't predict what will happen in November now.

When the Republicans nominated McCain, who is 72 years old and in pretty poor health, they took a chance that he will still be here in November.

Obama will not just get a few more percentage points as you say, he has already shown that he can get his supporters to rally for him at 7 AM in freezing temperatures because he did that when he came here in February.

Hillary has already been mathematically eliminated - she won't be the nominee.

So, since February, we've already decided to support Obama all the way.
The organization here didn't end when we held our caucus.
80% of the caucus goers voted for Obama, so it wasn't all that hard to convince the Hillary supporters to come over to our side.

Obama will take South Dakota, too.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

11. Did you read the Rolling Stone cover story about Obama?

His net delegates in Idaho canceled out Hillary's net delegates in New Jersey.

[grantcart]

13. Exactly and remember when all of the Clintonn DUers were laughing at Obama for going to

Idaho the week before Super Tuesday. Well in Idaho they know how to caucus



Watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5fwJEWLUv8

[NJSecularist]

15. That tells you how ridiculous the pledged delegate system is. n/t

[JackORoses]

20. actually it proves the genius of the system

The Big States don't just get to bully all the smaller states around in this setup.

In this scenario, a dedicated smaller state can have just as much impact as a divided big state.
That is very good.
It allows these small states a voice in determining the Party Nominee.

In a winner-take-all setup, all you need is Big States. That is why it is inherently flawed.

[NJSecularist]

23. Pennsylvania is more important than Idaho.

It is much bigger and an essential state in the general election.

For somebody to get closer to the nomination by winning Idaho instead of Pennsylvania is absurd.

[JackORoses]

25. It has more say in the General Election, because of the winnertakeall nature

but in the DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY the states' delegates have equal weight at the Covention.

"For somebody to get closer to the nomination by winning Idaho instead of Pennsylvania is absurd."
No, that is called Democracy.

You really should learn more about it. Astounding concept...

[NJSecularist]

26. Democracy won't mean much when there is a McGovern-esque blow in the general election

Because we chose the candidate that won Idaho over the candidate that won Pennsylvania, Florida and Ohio.

[JackORoses]

29. You do know that Missouri is the Traditional Bellweather, don't you?

All this other "Big State" talk is just Hillarite mumbo jumbo.
Primaries are not the GE. It is stupid to make that argument. It might work with the public, but not with a SD.

This is a Delegate Race.
Those Delegates represent the voices of every person who has voted thus far.
The Supers will not silence those voices.

Hillary never answers this question straight, "If she is so concerned about enfranchisement of MI, FL, etc. then why is she willing to negate the results of all the primaries using the Supers?"
She woud likely just laugh like a Hatter if asked that.

[NJSecularist]

33. How is Obama going to win the low-income white voters in the suburbs in MO?

He didn't do it in the primary. He'll have a hard time doing it in the general.

Hillary is the only candidate who can win MO in the general.

[JackORoses]

34. How is Hillary going to win the Cities without Blacks? That is how Dems have always won Missouri

and those suburban white people will vote for the Democrat in the Fall, don't delude yourself.

Hillary is finished.
She needed 30+ delegates out of PA.
She got 10.

Not nearly enough. If she can only gain 10 in PA, a state made for her and the largest state left, how can she make any gains with 9 smaller states coming. Not to mention, North Carolina, where Obama will likely net 20+

Face it. She has lost.

[NJSecularist]

35. The blacks will come back to Hillary. Are they going to vote for the Rethugs?

Get real.

Hillary can get the black vote in Missouri, Obama is going to have a hard time getting the suburban independent low-income white vote in Missouri. He may even bleed some white low-income white Democrats to McLame.

[totodeinhere]

70. They will abandon the Dem party if Clinton steals the nomination from Obama.

There would probably even be rioting in the streets.

[Major Hogwash]

49. Yes, it does and since we don't hold our state convention until June, I thought you would like

to know that the 5 uncommitted delgates for Idaho will be selected at the state convention.
Idaho state has a total of 23 delegates in the state's delegation to attend the national convention.
18 delegates are selected by the caucuses, and 5 more delegates at the convention.

And those 5 delegates will go to Obama.
The Democratic leaders here are fed up with what they have seen so far and they intend to end this thing one way or another before the national convention in August.

[Gore1FL]

54. Moreso it proves

the ineptness of the Clinton campaign.

Idaho had a handful of delegates, but the Clinton campaign couldn't be bothered with them.

That strategy is what lost us election after election. The 50-state strategy was proven in 2006, and it will continue to yield benefits.

[StevieM]

16. Which just goes to show that the PDs don't reflect the will of the American people. Each delegate

gets one vote and whoever gets the most delegates wins the nomination. Obama's argument has no precedent in American history.

Steve

[JackORoses]

22. The Idaho PDs reflect the will of their state, as do those of PA

"whoever gets the most delegates wins the nomination"
Exactly. That will be Barack Obama.
Glad we could work that out!

[StevieM]

28. ALL THE DELEGATES. Those are the rules of the democratic nominating contest

All the delegates get to decide. Elected delegates, caucus delegates, super delegates. Those have been the rules for years and there is no precedent for Obama's argument. He must play by the same rules as everyone else.

Steve

[JackORoses]

32. The Delegates are representatives of the voters from their states

I laugh at your strained effort to parse them into little groups which you can use to marginalize some.
You act as if the Primaries mean nothing. That it's all just up in the air now. That's not real. I hope you know that.

Perhaps you are right, though. Have you noticed that Hillary has actually been losing delegates at recent Caucus conventions.
Her own condescension is coming back to bite her.

[StevieM]

43. To say that delegates are representative of the voters from their states is silly

In Texas they punished districts that had a low voter turnout in 2004. And we know that 79% of Idaho Democrats don't prefer Barack Obama--to pretend that his preference is that high is absurd. Caucus goers are not reflective of voters, and caucuses are not reflective of what would have happened in actual elections. I'm not saying that he doesn't get those delegates, just that he can't claim moral entitlement based on a win of the PDs. Obviously they give him a huge advantage heading to the convention in terms of the number of delegates that he has locked up. That may get him the nomination. But until he wins a majority of all the delegates he isn't the nominee.

Steve

[Major Hogwash]

86. No, the delegates are apportioned by the votes, so it isn't absurd.

The fact is, Hillary never even opened a campaign office here.
She didn't distribute any yard signs here.
She didn't even give out any brochures.
She didn't come to Idaho.
She didn't spend a dime campaigning in Idaho - she just assumed that we would "fall in line" for her.

Huge mistake.

[JoFerret]

19. And is that not quite absurd?

.

[JackORoses]

24. Not at all

Idaho only had 18 delegate but they were so Pro Obama that 15 went to him, only 3 to Hillary.

In PA, where the public was much more divided, Hillary netted even less.

It's all proportional.

It just shows that Obama knows what he is doing, and Hillary was never prepared for this. Not even close.

[JoFerret]

27. And Utah will vote democrat in November?

And bring no electoral college votes. And Pennsylvania has how many?

[JackORoses]

30. the Primary results do not determine the General results and never have

The Primaries are set up to allow our Party to choose its nominee. All Democrats have a say in Party matters.

The General Election is outside of the Party control.

[rug]

31. How many people participated in the Idaho caucuses?

[suston96]

37. "Something new and vibrant?" Like what? Don't count big states that Hillary has won....

...like Michigan and Florida? That's really new and will surely vibrate the democrats right out of the presidency and vibrate the congress over to the Repubs.

But Idaho was a good win for Obama. It always goes blue,,,,,,

[JackORoses]

47. she didn't win anything in MI and FL, those elections were wholly flawed

and declared invalid even before they were held.

You're going to have a hard time voting for Obama in the Fall, but you will.

[Zhade]

38. kandr

kick

[rug]

41. 21,124 people participated in Idaho caucuses. 2,260,000 Democrats voted in Pennsylvania.

[Major Hogwash]

46. And 4 million voted in Texas! And guess what - Obama won there, too!

Don't count out the Democrats that live here - we didn't count out Democrats!

[rug]

50. The caucus portion, not the primary vote.

How do you feel about Idaho voters having 2,000% more weight than Texas voters?

[Major Hogwash]

51. You're nitpicking and that's not a good sign at this juncture of Hillary's campaign.

Seriously, she can't make up the pledged delegate count.
In 6 weeks it's over for her.

[rug]

52. You're right. 4,000,000 Democratic voters is too small a nit to pick.

Let the superdelegates decide for us.

[JackORoses]

53. you would rather have the SDs choose and totally overrule the Primaries?

Why even have them?

[rug]

56. I agree, but those are the rules. The same rules that allow Idaho and Alaska to overrule PA and Ohio

[JackORoses]

57. Do you honestly think that the SDs will even try it?

They are smart people. Much more attuned than your average voter.

I think they know a good thing when they see one.

[rug]

60. Do you think they will pick the winner of Idaho and Alaska over the winner of Ohio and PA?

A close look at all 55 contests is not all that rosy for Obama.

[JackORoses]

67. They will pick the person with the most Pledged Delegates.

The person who has won 31 of those 55 contests.

[Major Hogwash]

87. No, what I meant was - Obama actually won the state of Texas.

You're the one who wants to say she won because of the primary.
But, as you know the caucuses in Texas gave the state to Obama.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

90. Ridiculous on it's face.

Idaho split 23 delegates.
Texas split 228.

Texas had 10 times the representation of Idaho. Rightfully so.

You're probably against the U.S. Senate, too. There Idaho and Texas have equal weight.

[rug]

93. And Texas had 2,000 times the voters. That's what's ridiculous.

And the Senate has nothing to do with primary rules.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

95. Clinton supporters and math...

:freak:

190 times. ( 4,000,000/21,000= 190.476 )



However, you're still missing the point. Texas was essentially tied. Idaho was a blowout. Had Clinton blown Obama out in Texas, wait for it..., she would have won more delegates!

[rug]

97. You're correct. Idaho caucusers are allocated 190 times more weight than Texas Democrats.

And you're wrong about the Texas vote. Clinton got 100,000 more votes than Obama. If you're talking about all the primaries, I agree. They're essentially tied.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

100. Texas also has a caucus, ergo the paltry delegate gain.

Obama won Illinois by 600K(65-33%) votes and took 104 of the 153 delegates. (+55 del, 104-49)

Clinton won New York by 300K(57-40%) votes and took 139 of the 232 delegates. (+46 del, 139-93)

So he doubled the home state winning margin and only got 9 more delegates. :shrug:

The system is not gamed against Clinton.

[rug]

101. No, it's gamed against Democratic voters.

From the superdelegates, through the caucuses, to the weighted apportionment.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

102. Agree/disagree.

We could shit-can the SD's for all I care.

I support caucuses because they are the ultimate in democracy. My state has a caucus and the interaction between the various supporters is spirited and fair. However, a voting holiday should be mandatory in order to facilitate participation.

I also support proportional representation. Winning 51-49 and the 49's voice is shit-canned?

Weighted apportionment, however, is likely unfair.

[bobbert]

58. Where did you get the exact number of idaho caucus goers?

I thought that number was never reported

[rug]

61. Here, the New York Times.

http://politics.nytimes.com/election-guide/2008/results/states/ID.html

[McCamy Taylor]

55. Does not that prove that the currect delegate strategy sucks? Idaho means squat in the GE

Pennsylvania's electoral votes can win a person the White House. Guys, you need to think before you post stuff like this which will come back to bite you. This actually makes a good argument for ignoring all those delegate wins that are based on caucuses in small population red states.

[JackORoses]

64. we're not in the General! That's the whole point.

We are in the Democratic Primary, where all Dems have a voice. Even those from Red States.

Obama will win PA in the General on his way to 8 years of making America a better place.
Enjoy!

[Hamlette]

59. but Idaho doesn't count

because it went for Obama

[rug]

62. It counts, but not at a ratio of 1,000 to 1.

[Hamlette]

65. What?????

its weighted. Based on the number of voters. Sheesh.

[rug]

66. Idaho has 18 delegates and 22,000 caucusgoers. PA has 158 and 2,300.000 voters.

Pennsylvania has almost 9 times the number of delegates but a thousand times the number of voters. That's a minimum of 100 times more weight to Idaho voters. The system is grossly skewed.

[sakura]

69. 22,000 : 2,300,000 is a 100:1 ratio, not 1000:1

The whole point of the system is to give smaller states a say in things. Just like our senate system gives smaller states a say, so they're not steamrolled by the larger ones. That aside, if you don't like the system, I hope you'll do your best to change it-- after the election. Complaining about it now is mere goal-posts moving.

[jackson_dem]

81. 100:1 isn't a good thing nor is the within state schemes

Some districts in PA were allocated up to 3x more delegates as others. This is one reason she didn't gain as much in PA. She won rural areas while he won Philadelphia where voters have more weight.

[Major Hogwash]

91. Hillary only won in 1 county in the entire state of Idaho, out of 44 counties.

So, it was pretty much across the board here.

[rug]

92. Obama won 7 counties in Pennsylvania, Clinton won 60.

[Hamlette]

105. they got 3X the delegates because they had 3X more dem voters than "others"

It wouldn't be fair to give a district with 5 dem voters the same number of delegates as districts with 200,000 dem voters.

That is how the pleged delegates are aportioned.

Seems perfectly fair to me.

I hope that next time we don't have a 6 week lull like this time but other than that, it really is the most democratic system.

More democratic than winner take all.

[Major Hogwash]

89. We have 23 delegates. 5 more will be chosen in June at our state convention, for Obama.

Because the Dem leaders here don't like what they see going on with Hillary's "kitchen sink" strategy.

[rug]

98. So, you're ok with Dem leaders in a small state overruling Dem voters in a large state?

Tell me again why you don't want the superdelegates to decide this.

[Hamlette]

94. but having Super Delegates who represent NO ONE would be more fair?

If you didn't want to run in states with caucuses you should have fought within the party to eliminate them.

The number of delegates per state is based on the number of ppl who voted democrat in the last three presidential elections, not the number who vote THIS YEAR.

It is not unfair. If you didn't like the rules you should have AT LEAST OBJECTED. But you did not. Hillary did not. And now she whines and crys like a flipping girl.

And some people wonder why feminists like me don't like her.

You want to be treated like an equal? Play by the rules and when you lose because you surrounded yourself with smug, arrogant, condescending assholes like Wolfson, Davis and Carville, don't expect me to change the rules for you because you're a girl.

Sheesh.

[rug]

99. I agree with you. Let's all follow the rules. Supers can do whatever they want under the rules.

[Hamlette]

103. absolutely! And we count delegates in all states where the rules were followed.

and stop talking about popular vote or caucuses not being representative.

If you want to know why/how Obama won, it was because Plouff read the rules and did the spread sheet on how to get the most number of delegates possible for his candidate.

Hillary, bless her heart, thought she was going to be chosen.

If you want to know how people will govern, look to how they run.

[smalll]

63. LOL - "the birth of something new and vibrant." -- democracy, schmocracy,

that's the Obama Way! Rotten Boroughs for the 21st Century!

Honestly, I clicked on this link expecting it to be a fellow-Hillarite making this point, and lo and behold, you are an Obamatron!

The "defeat of the Old DEMOCRATIC Political Method"??? You got that right! And it is the Obama way! How did he get into the state senate? He SUED all his opponents off the ballot! How did he get into the real senate? He ran against Alan Keyes!

So what's Obama's plan to weasel himself into the White House in November? Looking to spend all those latte liberal donations on paying off Diebold then? It could work. :shrug:

[Secret_Society]

68. True democracy in the Democratic Party...

people don't matter just rules. Reminds me of a recent election.

[VotesForWomen]

71. yeah, and how many electoral votes are dems going to get out of idaho? yeah, ZERO. nt

[anonymous171]

74. Wins in Primary =/= Wins in GE

[VotesForWomen]

77. you mean "does not equal?" if so, that's exactly why we have superdelegates. nt

[grantcart]

76. Yes I did - but he won it for only one reason - she couldn't give a damn about it

In politics you can get by if you throw people under the bus after the election but it doesn't work if you do it before the election.

All she had to do was send Bill for an hour and she could have split the delegates.


By the way some people think that she will lose viability in Idaho and he will sweep all 18 delegates -

That will make it worth 2 Pennsylvanias lol


Yeah these folks really know this country lol

[GoesTo11]

79. Why should she give a damn about it? Pledged delegates don't count

Only popular vote. So all caucus states don't really count.

[GoldieAZ49]

78. Do you know the last time Idaho went Dem in a GE?

Do you really think Idaho and Utah are going Dem in the GE for Obama?

[jackson_dem]

80. That shows he much of a fraud the delegate scheme is

A 210,000+ vote win in PA or a 230,000+ vote win in OH is worth less than a 13,000 vote win.

[joeybee12]

84. Hmm, so winning Idaho with 3 electoral votes is better than PA with about 26?

[Major Hogwash]

88. No, we have 4 electoral votes. But, the delegate count for Obama here wiped out Hill's win in PA.

That was Jack's point.
That you don't seem to grasp.

[helderheid]

96. Yea, but you don't count.

:sarcasm:

[liberaldem4ever]

104. K & R!! Haven't heard that before-that's great

[Scurrilous]

106. K & R

:thumbsup: