So here comes more negative hits from Obama. Misleading mailers from Senator Obama?

[UALRBSofL]

I am shocked, shocked! :sarcasm:
http://www.politico.com/static/PPM41_fortunefrontback.html

Obama Campaign Releases False and Misleading Mailer In Indiana
4/23/2008 12:02:03 PM

Sen. Obama’s new Indiana mailer is full of misrepresentations on the candidates’ positions.

1.) The mailer falsely claims that Hillary strongly supported NAFTA as First Lady and Senator. This is false - Hillary publicly said NAFTA was flawed as early as 2000: "What happened to NAFTA I think was we inherited an agreement that we didn’t get everything we should have got out of it in my opinion. I think the NAFTA agreement was flawed." Former White House adviser David Gergen confirms that Hillary was ‘extremely unenthusiastic’ about NAFTA as First Lady. Watch Video here.

2.) The mailer suggests that Sen. Obama has ‘always opposed NAFTA.’ But in 2004, newspapers reported that Sen. Obama supported NAFTA and wanted to pursue similar agreements.

3.) The mailer hits Hillary for accepting money from lobbyists, but doesn’t tell you that Sen. Obama takes money from lobbying firms, state lobbyists, former lobbyists and the spouses of lobbyists. He has accepted $2.8 million from firms that employ federal lobbyists, and ten of his top bundlers have been federal lobbyists.

Prior to his presidential campaign, Sen. Obama accepted contributions from lobbyists and PACs. In his 2004 Senate race, Sen. Obama raised $1.3 million from PACs and $128,000 from lobbyists. As a state senator, over half of Sen. Obama’s contributions came from PACs, corporate contributions, or unions.

4.) The mailer attacks Hillary for supporting permanent trade relations with China as a way to enforce fair trade practices, an argument Sen. Obama himself has made.

5.) The Obama mailer also hits Hillary for having support in the business community:

Just last week, Obama was braging about his support in the business community:
Sen. Obama: 'I'm a big believer in business…That's probably the reason why I got such strong support in the business community in Illinois.' "I'm a big believer in business. I think business create jobs, I think that our economy has to grow in order for everybody to prosper. If we've got a shrinking economy, I don't care how the pie's divided. Sooner or later, we're going to have problems. That's probably the reason why I got such strong support in the business community in Illinois."

http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=7267

[DemVet]

1. So much for the candidate of "change"....he learned how to go negative really well.

[NeedleCast]

6. He Learned From the Best!

Hillary.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

30. Well, he DOES agree with her most of the time. But, I still don't get how his campaign went

from "Proud to be about Hope" to "Proud to be Bitter". That was truly strange, like a 180 degree change.

[BeyondGeography]

2. Guess she'll have to dig into her pockets and fight those "mistruths"

Expensive stuff, campaigning.

[Zueda]

3. Yes. He needs to swamp her.

Keep her in the red.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

4. Boo freakin' hoo.

Hillary can dish it out, but she sure can't take it.

[RoadRage]

5. I only have time to tackle the first one...

"1.) The mailer falsely claims that Hillary strongly supported NAFTA as First Lady and Senator. This is false - Hillary publicly said NAFTA was flawed as early as 2000: "What happened to NAFTA I think was we inherited an agreement that we didn’t get everything we should have got out of it in my opinion. I think the NAFTA agreement was flawed." Former White House adviser David Gergen confirms that Hillary was ‘extremely unenthusiastic’ about NAFTA as First Lady. Watch Video here."

Umm.. she DID support NAFTA as first lady, and as recently as 2004 - when she was a Senator. She tried to lie her way out of it in front of everyone in Ohio... but there was plenty of evidence to show she HAS supported it. Even her schedule as first lady shows her stomping around to support NAFTA back in the 90's.

She can claim that she said it was "flawed", but that doesn't mean she still didn't support it. My husband is "flawed" sometimes - but I still support him.

[BlooInBloo]

18. Clinton lying, her supporters stupidly passing them on. Some things never change.

[DUyellow]

7. Coming from camp: "no whining in politics." "If you cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"

[Texas Hill Country]

8. nice way to stay above the fray, huh?

[Terran]

9. I can't speak to most of this at the moment, but:

It's well documented that Clinton *did* support NAFTA early on. There's been video on youtube for weeks now showing her in some meeting sounding extremely supportive of it, with no suggestion of any reservations. So, sorry, your first point is wrong, and the Obama campaign is right on that one. If she had private reservations, they remained private, apparently. Her public position on the issue was one of full support.

So I kinda suspect the rest of your objections are less than valid as well. It would give you more credibility if you'd link sources proving your assertions, not to mention at least quoting what the mailer says.

[guyanakoolaid]

10. How "negative" is it to attack with the truth? - HILLARY SUPPORTED NAFTA

First, just to make sure you're up to speed with the facts, want to make sure you know that Bill Clinton made NAFTA a legislative priority.

From MSNBC's report on Clinton's finally unearthed WH documents - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG00SWAqcvw

- Hillary Clinton held FIVE meetings for Congressional approval of NAFTA

- Helped block opposition from labor and environmental groups

- Was featured speaker at a crucial meeting on Nov. 10, 1993 where she lobbied 120 women opinion leaders to lobby the Senate for passage of NAFTA


So... are we to believe you and Clinton stooge Gergen, or the White House documents and 120 witnesses to Hillary's pro-NAFTA rally? :shrug:

[uponit7771]

13. The LIV gets reeled in easy with these type of post

[endarkenment]

34. I've missed something. What is an LIV?

[UALRBSofL]

14. Just give me a wink-and-a-nod when you post to me

So I know when your serious or not! :rofl:

[guyanakoolaid]

24. ...

;)

Nice rebuttal on the facts of Hillary's NAFTA support :eyes:

[guyanakoolaid]

28. oh, sorry...

it was a wink and a nod, too, right?

;) :headbang:


whenever you feel like dealing with the facts, let me know

[Kittycat]

15. You can't argue with koolaid drinkers (AKA HillFans)

They're too busy turning in to Repukes to support their candidate.

[uponit7771]

19. I'm starting to think they're not HilFans but freepers most of them, they're illogical and immature

...which are traits of most GOPers I've noticed after 6 years of posting on poly forums

[Romulox]

11. The DLC's head economist is Obama's chief economic advisor--Obama is a "free trader"

I am so sick of Obama's triangulation on trade. He's pointing the finger on NAFTA when he supports the exact same trade policies as Hillary.

Anti-corporate candidate my ass! :eyes:

Senator Obama: "I believe in the Free Market. I believe in Capitalism. I believe in Free Trade.

January 7, 2008.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTfJmz3GWeE

Something about Obama attracts New D's, GOP's, Broderites, Indies, Perotistas, Reagan D's and Libertarians alike. Is it his big table? His promise to turn the page? His post-racial posture? Is it his cologne?

Or is it Austan Goolsbee?

Who??? Goolsbee. Economic wunderkind, forensics champ, MIT PhD, Yale Bonesman out of Waco via Milton Academy, Obama's chief / top / senior economic spokesman and senior policy advisor.

Oh, and DLC senior economist.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/31/172355/172/6/431204

DLC | Bio | May 31, 2007
Austan Goolsbee
Senior Economist, DLC/PPI

Austan Goolsbee is Senior Economist to the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) and the Progressive Policy Institute (PPI). In addition to his responsibilities with the DLC/PPI, Dr. Goolsbee is the Robert P. Gwinn Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago and is recognized as one of the top young stars in the field of economics. He has contributed to numerous academic, financial, and governmental institutions, including the Department of Justice, Antitrust Division, the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, and the National Bureau of Economic Research. He is currently a columnist for The New York Times, writing its "Economic Scene" column, and was the Lead Editor for the Journal of Law and Economics from 2001 to 2004. In 1991, Goolsbee served on former Senator David Boren's (D-Okla.) Economics Staff.

Goolsbee has received numerous accolades in his illustrious career. The Financial Times' named him one of the six Gurus of the Future/Best Under 40 in 2005, and the World Economic Forum in Switzerland chose him one as one of the 2005 Young Global Leaders.

Goolsbee is also a member of the U.S. Census Advisory Committee (representing the American Economic Association); a Research Associate for the National Bureau of Economic Research in Cambridge; and a Research Fellow at the American Bar Foundation in Chicago. He received his Master's Degree in Economics from Yale in 1991 and his Ph.D. in the same subject in 1995 from Massachusetts Institute of Technology.


http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=254329&kaid=86&subid=191

[uponit7771]

16. Ummm, the man NEVER said he was against free trade just the CURRENT agreements and the one sidedness

..of them.

You guys spin only works on LIVs

[Romulox]

29. LOL. That's a *nuanced* position for a candidate whose supporters say "DLC" like it's a dirty word

Obama has attempted to draw a contrast between himself and Clinton on trade where none exists; this strategy plays on his supporters' ignorance of who Austan Goolsbee is, and what the DLC stands for. (Incidentally, this is why you are utterly unable to tell me how Obama's support of NAFTA differs in a substantive way from Hillarys! :hi: )

Low information voters indeed! :rofl:

[uponit7771]

12. A rebut of your post

# 1. is silly, either you haven't seen her minutes as first lady or you think we're stupid

# 2. Link to such "papers"

# 3. She does accept money from lobbyist and please link Obama taking money from firms (this is illegal and should be reported) the lobbyist and mentioning that he takes money from the bundlers (who anyone can be), spouses and employee of lobbyist makes your argument here sound weak because of quilt by association.

# 4. Link to Obama making these arguments

# 5. This is a plus for Hillary, don't know why it's mentioned.

BTW: When you're debating or acussing someone of lying please source your reasoning otherwise it's hard for those with opposing view or less information to believe you.

Thx

[Blue_Roses]

17. what's that I hear...

is it, whining...?

Get ready, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[merh]

20. Let's debunk the first one, shall we

From the mouth of the candidate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYDL3Mf6s2k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BrPZYbCdJ4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ0swdRvYgw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG00SWAqcvw

[uponit7771]

22. Hill supporters are either LIVs or freepers IMHO.

[merh]

33. No, many are just adamant they are right

it is hard giving up heroes - to find the faults in those you admire and hold in such high esteem can be devastating, it's easier to think that other people are wrong.

what is a "LIV"?

[Evergreen Emerald]

21. Obama has been negative from the beginning. He lies and gets away with it

because his supporters do not seem to care what he supports or what he thinks of the issues, or if he has any depth of knowledge. He talks pertty tho.

[uponit7771]

25. The poster wouldn't link any of the claims and you say Obama is negative?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

23. nothing new here, it's what he has been doing from day one.....watch the hands

[uponit7771]

26. I've seen Hillary's hands throwing the kitchen sink while telling bold faced lies.

[izzybeans]

27. How dare he!

:sarcasm:

Wendy Whiner in the hose, ya'll.

[zulchzulu]

31. Hillary was the "closer" at NAFTA meetings while First Lady

It's about time to slam the Clinton Machine for their devout support of both NAFTA and China MFN free trade:

Now that we know from official records of her time as First Lady that Clinton was the featured speaker at a closed-door session where 120 women opinion leaders were hectored to pressure their congressional representatives to approve NAFTA; now that we know from ABC News reporting on the session that "her remarks were totally pro-NAFTA" and that "there was no equivocation for her support for NAFTA at the time;" now that we have these details confirmed, what should we make of Clinton's campaign claim that she was never comfortable with the militant free-trade agenda that has cost the United States hundreds of thousands of union jobs, that has idled entire industries, that has saddled this country with record trade deficits, undermined the security of working families in the US and abroad, and has forced Mexican farmers off their land into an economic refugee status that ultimately forces them to cross the Rio Grande River in search of work?

As she campaigns now, Clinton says, "I have been a critic of NAFTA from the very beginning."

But the White House records confirm that this is not true.

Her statement is, to be precise, a lie.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=300860

http://www.fas.org/news/china/1998/h980618-prc8.htm

Hillary Clinton gladly Bill break his campaign promise to not give China permanent most favored nation status and open the floodgates for jobs to leave the US:

Supports MFN for China, despite concerns over human rights. (Oct 2000)
http://www.ontheissues.org/hillary_clinton.htm#Free_Trade

More: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/zulchzulu/176

[Bensthename]

32. Obama > Clinton

[hayu_lol]

35. And of course, we all know how much Obama thinks of Reagan...

in the same vein, Christine Craft, KGO San Francisco last night mentioned that Obama is considering Der Gropenator for a high ranking position in the Environmental Protection Agency. Wouldn't that be a hoot. Sort of like watching the administration of Obama's being staffed like foxes in a henhouse. He loves Repugs.

[Cheap_Trick]

36. don't worry...

I've called a waaaaambulance for you...