So you all think Michigan will just "go with the program" in November?

[Tyler Durden]

Guess again.

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20080424005694&newsLang=en

April 24, 2008 08:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time
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To save a permanent link to this news, right-click the dateline (Ctl-click on a Mac) to copy the link.
Michigan, Florida Democrats reject splitting delegates evenly, SaveTheVoters.org poll finds

Widespread support exists among Michigan and Florida Democrats for counting early primary results or holding new primary contests in presidential election

NATICK, Mass.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--A new poll commissioned by SaveTheVoters.org and conducted by Public Policy Polling provides compelling new evidence that Michigan and Florida Democrats want to be included in the process of allocating their state’s delegates in this year's presidential election. The poll was conducted April 18-20, 2008 and included 1,020 Democratic voters (51% Michigan, 49% Florida) with a margin of error of ± 3.1% overall (4.3% in the Michigan subset, 4.4% in the Florida subset). The poll is part of a new non-partisan, non-profit initiative seeking to empower disenfranchised Florida and Michigan primary voters by giving them a voice in the debate over how to seat their delegates.

Among the poll's findings:

* Voters in both states do not support evenly-splitting their delegates; 82% of Florida Democrats and 77% of Michigan primary voters support seating delegates on the basis of the early primary results or using a new primary over an evenly-split delegation. Even among supporters of Barack Obama (who would benefit from an even split), only 42% favored this option.
* A significant majority (58%) of Florida Democrats support seating delegates based on early primary results; more Michigan primary voters support this option than any other individual option.

(snip....MANY more bullets

# There is considerable local pressure on state politicians to act to support new primaries; 63% of voters, regardless of state or candidate supported, would vote against a politician who deliberately acted to prevent a new primary.
# There is considerable pressure on the DNC to allocate these state delegations based on the will of the people of these two states. Over 28% of Democratic voters will vote for Republican John McCain or a third party candidate in the general presidential election if the DNC does not allocate delegates on the basis of their votes, an effect that is consistent no matter whether Hillary Clinton or Obama is the eventual nominee.

(snip)

http://www.savethevoters.org/research.html


HELLO??? CAN YOU HEAR ME IN THE BACK??? "...63% OF VOTERS, REGARDLESS OF STATE OR CANDIDATE SUPPORTED, WOULD VOTE AGAINST A POLITICIAN WHO DELIBERATELY ACTED TO PREVENT A NEW PRIMARY." "OVER 28% OF DEMOCRATIC VOTERS WILL VOTE FOR REPUBLICAN JOHN MCCAIN OR A THIRD PARTY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION IF THE DNC DOES NOT ALLOCATE DELGATES ON THE BASIS OF THEIR VOTES, AN EFFECT THAT IS CONSISTENT NO MATTER WHETHER HILLARY CLINTON OR OBAMA IS THE EVENTUAL NOMINEE."

MICHIGAN and FLORIDA want this God Damned thing FIXED. NOT 50/50 split like we weren't even here: FIXED. NOW.

Make any wiseass snide snarky comment you want, but if you ain't got MICHIGAN in the fall, you might not have SHIT, no matter WHO you are (other than McCain, that is).

So just keep talking about _______ who wants to rig this or that...seems to be working SO WELL so far.

IGNORE AT YOUR PERIL. MICHIGAN WILL REMEMBER.

[DemVet]

1. I think we're in serious jeopardy when it comes to both FL and MI

[TwilightGardener]

2. Ooops, PA must not have gone as far as Hillary supporters wanted it to--

you know they're in trouble when the FL/MI argument rears its ugly head again. That's desperation talking.

[virtualobserver]

3. if Michigan voters are stupid enough to vote McCain, they will get what they deserve

[TwilightGardener]

7. I really don't see where the primary has any bearing on the general.

Who is going to suddenly turn Republican because their state fucked up the primary?

[virtualobserver]

15. If Hillary's surrogates create local campaigns about it.......

it will create division and animosity. She has to destroy the village in order to save it.

[Windy]

35. More likely to sit home if the will of the people is overturned by Clinton and the Super ds!

I'm in Michigan and voted uncommitted. There is a threat that Clinton will file a lawsuit to seat the delegates as the votes were cast.

Problems with that:

Many didn't show up to vote because they were told their vote wouldn't count! (primary reason)

Obama (and Edwards, Biden, Dodd, etc) didn't campaign in the state.

Obama's name was not on the ballot, neither was Edwards or Biden.


Polls in my state show that most prefer OBAMA.

If she files a lawsuit, I say a class action should be filed against her campaign on behalf of the uncommitted voters in this state! If there are any attorneys out there who would be willing to do this pro bono, contact the media in Michigan (Metro Detroit)!!!

[kevinbgoode]

50. Exactly. Hillary doesn't mind disenfranchising those who didn't vote

knowing the primary didn't count. Her response is already in my mind. . ."That was their choice." And it was Hillary's choice to agree to the rules - which she did - and then suddenly decide to change her mind once she desperately needed their support. After all, SHE was the one who declared the nomination would be secured for her by Super Tuesday. . .and when it wasn't, she suddenly became interested in other states.

[Tyler Durden]

52. None of you read the poll on the link, did you?

Michigan and Florida don't give two shits whether Clinton or Obama is to blame for not getting their votes counted, and they WILL jump ship.

Count on it. I know these people. They replaced David Bonior with Candace Miller, and people who will do THAT are crazy. Don't fuck with crazy people: you'll lose.

[Asgaya Dihi]

135. You don't bow to crazy people either

If they want to finance and run new primaries I'm not aware of anyone stopping them from doing so. They are the ones who claim they can't or won't do it for whatever reasons, last I heard at least one of them was demanding that if it was going to be done the national party had to pay for it. Screw that.

As far as I know all they have to do is to submit plans for a new primary to the national party for approval, then pay for and carry out those plans. If there was a deadline I missed it but that was the story last I heard. The choices have mostly been theirs the whole way though this thing, nobody else is doing it to them. They just have a persecution complex and bowing to it won't help any of us in the long run. It'll just encourage these drama acts from others in the future when they want to be special too, we'll be here again.

[Tyler Durden]

139. They got stopped by State Sen. Tupac Hudson, head of Team Obama in Michigan.

The deal agreed on Sunday got quashed on Tuesday, the Deadline was Thursday, and his ally was the Republican controlled state senate.

Those are the FACTS. Now if you want to roll the dice for November, be my guest.

I'm linking all of these threads, so that if that bastard McCain gets elected because Michigan and Florida went RED, I can shove this in everyone's faces how they HAD to support DNC DEAN and his 100% Penalty Prick Wave of Power.

[Asgaya Dihi]

147. We're already rolling the dice

As big a problem as this could be it's still small potatoes compared to the way this race has gone. I didn't give us but a 20% chance of winning a couple of weeks ago and I don't think the odds have improved. People don't consider what impact Hillary or others being quoted or played in clips on tv will have, unless I miss my guess when we finally do get her out of the primary we're still going to be seeing her or her people campaigning second hand in ads for the repubs.

Things were said and done long ago that probably already has cost us the election, we just haven't seen it put to work so don't realize it yet. Obama is pretty good though so maybe he can pull it off. The odds of us winning under either have been going down faster than most realize though.

I'd be interested in the links you mention, haven't read up on this angle in a while and missed what you're talking about above. If there's a fix that leaves them cleaning up their own mess that's fine, but bowing down to them or paying them off would be a huge mistake and just see us going down this road every time someone wants to feel special. That's all that happened here. We've caved to repubs, caved to tough on crime, caved to war mongering, to welfare reform, to bad supreme court and other appointments, to one thing after another which in all has left the party a gutted and empty shell of what used to be, a party with no goals and agendas of their own. Doing it one more time won't save us, it'll just reinforce the trend.

Might as well learn to stand up someday. And yeah, it could hurt at first. So does what we've been doing the last few decades. There's an end to it one day if we learn to stand up though. On our current path there's the promise of endless amounts.

[RazBerryBeret]

12. Unfortunately

we will ALL get what THEY deserve.
that's the hard part....sigh....

[virtualobserver]

18. True, but in reality they aren't stupid and they will vote Democratic

[Tyler Durden]

36. Stupid has nothing to do with it.

They feel betrayed, and feel no compulsion to cooperate with the people they feel have betrayed them.

Common psychology.

[virtualobserver]

45. voting for McCain would be voting against their own interests...

which is the very definition of stupid. But they aren't stupid.

[Tyler Durden]

54. No, they aren't stupid...they're STUBBORN...

and sometimes, they're fucking CRAZY.

Our legislature, in our economic crisis, has just spent the last week debating, (wait for it),
























Dilation and Extraction, also called "Partial Birth Abortion."


Just fix this...Really. This place is dog nuts crazy, and we need the state in the fall.

[virtualobserver]

57. they will come to their senses......the economy is crashing

[Tyler Durden]

63. You don't live here, do you?

The state is in fiscal disaster, schools are laying off teachers, college tuition is going up an average of 10% this fall, and the legislature just spent the last week arguing over...wait for it....



























































Dilation and Extraction.

This state is dog nuts crazy. Take my word for it. And that poll was independent, by the way. Clinton had nothing to do with it.

[virtualobserver]

66. we shall see

[Tyler Durden]

81. You want to roll those dice? GOD you're brave.

Or crazy. Or both.

[Bake]

151. "Dog nuts crazy"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Right on!!

Bake

[terrell9584]

92. that's what the Alabama Dem Party thought in 1986

After they overturned the results of the runoff (which until then, had been the election, with the general being a formality)

The result was the first Republican governor since Reconstruction and the establishment of the GOP as an actual, legitimately competitive party on offices below the federal level.

[kevinbgoode]

46. I thought they had a chance to vote for McCain in the Republican primary

and they chose to disenfranchise themselves by picking up a ballot for a primary that they already knew wasn't going to count.

[virtualobserver]

53. They aren't allowed to disenfranchise themselves, Only Hillary is allowed to do that

[Bake]

115. No, YOU will get the result of screwing them over.

YOU. And the rest of us will have to live with it.

All they're asking for is a chance to vote and be heard. Why is that so wrong? Or perhaps, WHAT ARE YOU SCARED OF?

Maybe they'd vote for Obama. If they do, that's fine and dandy with me. I'm willing to risk it. How about you?

Bake

[Tyler Durden]

123. Thank you. At this point, I'd be GREATFUL if a redo went Obama.

As long as we get this albatross off the neck of the party.

This is now DNC DEAN'S bugbear. If nothing happens, then I blame HIM.

[dchill]

24. Acute analysis of sore loser syndrome.

Also, a cute analysis! :)

[navarth]

4. That's funny....

I live and work in Michigan and nobody I've talked to agrees with this. They all say the local govt. fucked it up.

[cali]

10. The OP seems to see himself

as the ultimate and only legitimate voice representing MI, here at DU.

[Tyler Durden]

22. I've been a MI resident for 55 years.

EVERYONE I talk to agrees with this. And the Republicans I talk to LAUGH AT THE DEMOCRATS for being such idiots.

[Windy]

37. I don't, and I've been a resident here for over 20 after moving from Cincinnati n/t

[Tyler Durden]

56. Then you're not paying attention.

The East Side of the state replaced David Bonior with CANDACE MILLER.

You haven't noticed how CRAZY it is here yet???

The legislature in this fiscal crisis just spent the last week arguing over Dilation and Extraction, and you expect the state to be SANE???

[Bake]

152. Would that be ... "dog nuts crazy?"

I just love that term!! Kudos!!

Bake

[Terran]

74. All the people you talk to must be deeply political then.

Because you know damn well that the *average* person doesn't give a crap about primary elections, and they don't get pissed off enough over something like this to go vote for the person of the other party, out of 'revenge'. It's just a ridiculous notion. I don't care how many people you've talked to, you don't represent the entire population of your rather large state.

The only way any significant number of people will get pissed off over this is if Clinton leads some kind of jihad against the DNC. Which she appears ready to do.

[Tyler Durden]

83. You really aren't listening, are you?

I work in a FACTORY. I live in a dying factory TOWN. These people barely have 2 strands of DNA.

Get with the program, and quit advocating taking a bad risk, like those DNC idiots.

[TahitiNut]

64. Try visiting Macomb County sometime.

If you don't see what's described in the OM and what I'm seeing, then you're not getting around much. I hear it here in South Oakland County repeatedly. I hear it over in Macomb County.

People are pissed.

[Tyler Durden]

85. THANK YOU! Nice to agree with you on something.

These people don't get that the people in this state can sometimes behave very stubbornly if they feel someone is pissing in their cornflakes.

You know I'd rather Clinton by about 0.00001%, but I'll give you Obama over McCain, and that won't happen if the party loses Michigan. It's too tight already.

[book_worm]

5. In the end they will be seated. Give Hillary FL and O still leads popular vote

Give her MI too and she takes the lead, but what of the 40% who voted "uncommitted"? do they count? if Hillary's Michigan numbers count then yes, they do. So to be fair we give Obama the "uncommitted" after all, his name wasn't on ballot and Hillary signed a paper saying MI didn't count. So now Obama is back in the lead in the popular vote even with Michigan and Florida. And he will stay there with big wins in NC and Oregon and elsewhere.

[cali]

6. Polls show Obama beating McCain there now

People may be aggrieved about the process, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a McCain win. Furthermore, it's likely that Obama will have this wrapped up by June at the latest. After that, I'm sure he'll be amenable to seating those delegates in their original form. Problem solved.

[purji]

25. yes he is!!

polls also show mcCain beating Hillary.

[LisaM]

8. I think a lot of people are mis-reading the situation. We need both states.

Either one could easily go to the Republicans; they are both swing states, and one event could swing them the other way. I don't know about Florida so much, but Michigan's economy is on the rocks. They lost population last year, housing prices are so in the tank that they are giving away houses in some towns, and there is always a large kook vote waiting in the wings to jump on any slight, real or imagined.

I think it's fairly clear that Obama supporters are spouting the party line on "breaking the rules" because they know that these are states where HRC has an advantage.

[kevinbgoode]

55. I certainly don't believe she has an "advantage" in those states

but it was those states who decided to break the rules. Pretending there is no consequence for the actions is the outrage here. . .if the voters feel disenfranchised, they need to address the GOP legislature in Florida (which didn't seem to mind doing that to them) and the state democratic committee in Michigan.

Only a candidate as cynical as Hillary Clinton would attempt to annex the delegates of states who knowingly, intentionally broke the rules she herself agreed upon. If those states get away with it, how many other states should be allowed to break their delegate commitment to voters to support her to balance it out? After all, if only Clinton can change the rules at will, none of the other rules should apply to anyone else.

[LisaM]

84. I thought they should have worked harder in the beginning

to make sure Florida and Michigan got their voice - I said this well before the primaries started. Having Iowa and NH continue to pick our candidates is ridiculous. Michigan has huge issues and wanted to be heard. I care about that, and so does my family in Michigan. No one knew the primaries would actually extend to the point where more states actually had a say (unlike many others here, I think this is a GOOD thing). Having the GOP legislatures in both states clinch the situation really rubs me the wrong way.

[haymakeragain]

9. Can you give me an education? How did this come about?

Was it a Republican trick like in Florida, or what? Didn't the DNC warn them not to change the order of primaries way back before they did it? I don't know the story, could you please tell it?

[Tyler Durden]

27. And that matters why?

My car is stalled and stuck on the Railroad tracks. A train is coming. I can sit there and curse my mechanic, or I can get the fuck out of the car.

[Political Heretic]

80. Right now MI is sitting there cursing the mechanic.

They made the mess, they're the ones that need to fix it.

[haymakeragain]

116. I was asking for a little help tyler, I thought you might know the history.

I want Michigan to count, as does everyone. But the DNC made it clear that it wouldn't and one of the two remaining candidates wasn't even on the ballot. Can you explain how this can be sorted out and not be a complete sham?

[Tyler Durden]

125. REDO. Period.

Fund it from the DNC. GET IT THE FUCK DONE. There's still time.

[EmilyAnne]

11. If going with the program is preventing McCain from driving this country further into hell, then,

YES. I do think they will go with the program.

[Tyler Durden]

30. Dreamer.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1auRCameVY

[DJ13]

13. It would be unjust to every other state to rerun primaries in Fla & Mi

That would make the rules violators the most important states in the primary season.

It aint going to happen, so you people in Florida and Michigan need to show your STATE leaders how pissed you are that THEY played politics with YOUR votes and lost YOU the opportunity to count.

Its not Obamas fault, its not Clintons fault, its not Deans fault, its YOUR elected representatives fault.

Take it up with THEM.

[QC]

14. Unacceptable! It would jeopardize Prince Barack's coronation! n/t

[Windy]

38. Hardly. He would beat her handily in Michigan! n/t

[Barack_America]

16. If Michigan wants to vote for their economic extinction, I've no choice but to let them.

All I can do is take comfort that my friends and family back home know exactly what's at stake.

Sorry, but your argument that I should yield to voters who can't be bothered to educate themselves about what's at stake with their votes just isn't working.

[mmonk]

17. Give all the delegates to Hillary.

People who want to vote for someone else, the hell with the them. Fair now?

[tokenlib]

19. Michigan voters are bitter and not over the primary...

The economy is in the shitcan--the numbers of unemployed and especially underemployed are massive. You can make as much money at McDonalds as starting out at some GM suppliers. All these illusions that the state will go McCain are ridiculous.

And, the state establishment Clinton supporters vastly overestimate their own popularity right now. Most people simply don't care about the primary at this point--we're too busy economically surviving.

They knew the rules--we all know the rules--there will be no revote--and a plurality of Clinton delegates will not be allowed to effect the outcome.

[SeaLyons]

20. Obama supporters are in favor

of disenfranchising voters in order to get their candidate the nomination. Pathetic. If MI and FL is not counted and he get's the nomination, there will be hell to pay. What's Obama afraid of? Oh, I know....losing!!! Talk about winning at all costs.

[virtualobserver]

28. Hillary is in favor of persuading pledged delegates for Obama to vote for her

...which means she is in favor of disenfranchising all voters, so don't try and BS us.

Obama just wants to follow the rules. There are no do-overs in politics. Every state had their chance to do it by the rules.

[SeaLyons]

40. Obama just wants to follow the rules????

Right!!! Like I said, there will be a huge backlash for his steadfast rule following.

btw...do you really believe that???? Not!

[virtualobserver]

43. a backlash for Hillary trying to disenfranchise voters in states that followed the rules

by wooing their pledged delegates?

[mmonk]

31. Hillary supporters are in favor of being dishonest to the voters

in those states and make them angry for their own self gain at the expense of the party.

[Kesaco]

73. Obama supporters are afraid of Mich. and Fla. and

to debate Hillary again.

[PVnRT]

103. FAIL

Hillary SIGNED ON TO THE DNC'S DECISION. Now, she's losing, and wants to go back on that.

And, no, nobody is in favor of "disenfranchising" anyone. You can blame that on the state legislatures that decided to try to act like tough guys instead of working out a deal.

[Tyler Durden]

124. This has nothing to do with Clinton anymore.

It has to do with winning in November.

If that means nothing to you, then by all means, stand with DNC DEAN. This primary is worse than a Tarantino film, and standing on "rules" that Dean exceeded anyway is ludicrous at this point.

[DearAbby]

21. So Michigan voters

will ignore the economy, and the war...to vote for McCain out of spite, because of their officials violated the rules of the Democratic Party...OOOOOOOooookay :crazy:

[Tyler Durden]

33. No, they just feel, and possibly rightly so...

That the Democratic Party doesn't give two shits whether they vote or not.

Frustrated people seldom cooperate with the people they are frustrated WITH.

[DearAbby]

47. Why, it wasn't the party's fault

it was the fault of their local government fucking up the process...Why blame the party? Going to blame the judge that ruled it unconstitutional while you are at it?

[wileedog]

69. And if Hillary has the SDs overturn the vote

How will they feel then about the Party's opinion of their vote?

[mmonk]

104. Well at least some in the democratic party.

Their frustration is because as a voter, it's not their fault.

[tokenlib]

41. The November implications are being overblown by the Clinton camp...

Michigan is so much in the economic shitcan--the economy beats most issues for most people. My guess is that only the economically secure have the luxury of getting all wound up about this.

In the end the delegates will be seated--as soon as the nominee is assured. They simply will not be allowed to determine the nomination.

[Tyler Durden]

60. You don't live here, do you?

The state is in fiscal disaster, schools are laying off teachers, college tuition is going up an average of 10% this fall, and the legislature just spent the last week arguing over...wait for it....



























































Dilation and Extraction.

This state is dog nuts crazy. Take my word for it. And that poll was independent, by the way. Clinton had nothing to do with it.

[tokenlib]

67. Actually I do live here, am unemployed, bitter, pissed off---

--and most people I know are too busy scraping to survive to care about the primary screw up. It just reinforces their distain for Granholm and the other politicians. Up north there are only new jobs at Wal-Mart and people are scared. They will not vote for McCain. They are not all hyped up about a re-vote.

[purji]

86. me too!

Michigan will not go mcCain! And I have yet to hear one person here (south of Detroit) who cares if we have a re-vote or not.

[Tyler Durden]

98. Try Flint, Pontiac, Lapeer, Port Huron, Warren, Eastpointe.....

Owosso, St. Johns, Lansing...

I can keep going. This is not a chance anyone needs to take, especially just for spite.

[Skinner]

23. I must admit I'm torn.

On the one hand: Michigan (and Florida) have only themselves to blame. They made their bed. And threatening posts about "ignoring at your peril" don't really fill me with goodwill toward ether of them.

On the other hand: You are right that we probably have to kiss Michigan's and Florida's collective asses, even though they were the ones who screwed this up. Otherwise they might take their ball and go vote Republican in the fall.

So, yes, we should seat their delegates. Somehow. But personally I think we should finish the primary first, wait for the supers to pick sides, and then deal with Michigan and Florida.

(For the record, I'm not partisan on this. I don't have a strong preference between the two Democratic candidates, and furthermore I don't consider the question of which candidate this helps to be relevant. I have family in Michigan, and I even worked for Senator Levin -- one of the good guys, IMO -- who was a big advocate for an early Michigan primary.)

[mmonk]

34. I agree a solution should be worked out but at the end.

The problem is many don't want to work it out for political points and purposes.

[purji]

42. I truly don't think Michigan will go republican in Nov.

The republicans around here wanted Romney (or gods forbid Ron Paul),no one is all that excited about McCain.

I really don't think there will be much republican turn out.

I dont feel left out of the process,but some people do,fair enough.
No matter what, Michigan NEEDS change of some kind. We might not be sure which Dem will bring it about,but we are sure it wont come from a republican.

[Tyler Durden]

48. Bingo. You win first prize.

But NONE of my posts are "threats," they are warnings.

It seems that the Party has banked on displeasure with Republicans to carry the day: this state has been split on parties for generations. They are the ORIGINAL "I vote for the PERSON not the PARTY" state. In this day of the "Monolithic Two Political Party System" that doesn't seem to make much sense, but habits die hard here.

As to "...Michigan's and Florida's collective asses..." nobody here seems to see it that way. Hasn't the Democratic Party been spearheading the "count every vote/fair elections/no hanging chads" theory since the Bush/Gore election: is it any surprise that what is viewed as disenfranchising the state is not taken kindly? I won't vote for that prick McCain, but the sentiment is not lost on me.

I too feel betrayed, and you can bet your ass that if Clinton or Obama manage to make it to the White House, the first time they pass on supporting every single dotted "i" and crossed "t" in the constitution, I will be screaming "IMPEACH!" from the highest rooftop, and double for McCain if, God Forbid, he gets in.

PRIMARIES. That's what Michigan and Florida want. And if this doesn't happen, KATY BAR THE DOOR.

That's no threat: that's a warning.

[Skinner]

79. I really wish the Powers That Be in Michigan had thought of that...

...before they created this mess.

[Political Heretic]

82. Thank you. I feel that point has been drastically underrepresented.

They are the ones who are responsible.

Incidentally, I feel that this:
"So, yes, we should seat their delegates. Somehow. But personally I think we should finish the primary first, wait for the supers to pick sides, and then deal with Michigan and Florida."

Is the only option left.

[Tyler Durden]

90. Bit late for that, isn't it? See also, post #72

And your non-solution guarantees failure, according to the poll and opinion I see.

[Political Heretic]

108. There isn't another viable choice.

[Tyler Durden]

110. Then get used to doing without Michigan in the fall.

Even I didn't know it was this bad until I researched this poll. I don't endorse this behavior, I only report.

Kill the messenger.

[JVS]

91. You don't think they knew? They planned on it being a mess.

[Barack_America]

68. Oohh, you worked for Levin?!?!

Wow. I'm jealous. What was it like?

I love that man. I've had a political crush on him since high school. I'm sad to be in opposition of him on this issue, but it doesn't lessen my regard for him.

[Skinner]

75. He's great.

I was Research Director on his 1996 re-election campaign. I did not have frequent contact with him (that's how it is on most campaigns), but I guess I got to know him well enough. He was pretty much exactly how you would expect him to be: Super-smart, liberal, honest, decent, hard-working, and a little bit frumpy. Not slick like other politicians. Wrinkly clothes and granny glasses on the end of his nose. I think he's great.

I worked for his brother Sandy, too. They are both great. I don't think they make politicians like that anymore.

[TahitiNut]

70. It's NOT the Michigan voters to blame.

When you lump ALL of "Michigan" together in allocating the 'blame' for the FUBAR, you ignore the fact that it was the party insiders, in a power struggle with the national party and also with the state GOP, that created the mess. NOBODY gave two shits in a windstorm about the voters, except in their exploitation.

Furthermore, the Democratic party rules do NOT call for the action taken. Even in dealing with this fiasco, the rules were not adhered to.

It has been a FUBAR all along and CONTINUES to be so.

YOU know as well as I do that the Macomb County voters (and their ilk) will be sure to vent their spleen in November. The Democratic Party can kiss about 5% of the Michigan vote good-bye in November unless they PAY PENANCE. There'd better be a LOT of campaigning, personal appearances, and the issues of unemployment (off-shoring jobs) and foreclosures get addressed vigorously and BELIEVABLY.

[PassingFair]

153. I am a Macomb County voter..

Me and my "ilk" are FURIOUS at the STATE PARTY
and our congressional delegation and our
Governor.

The Clinton people were SLINKING AWAY at our
district convention, and the "uncommitteds"
were SOLIDLY behind Barack Obama.

The Democratic Party will lose 5% ANYWAY,
because we DARED to bring the choice down
to a WOMAN and a BLACK MAN.

There are 5% of democrats in this state
that will vote them down for one of those
reasons, even WITHOUT this "primary" drama.

[SanchoPanza]

94. Little doubt that this is how it's going to happen

MI/FL will be unable to get a favorable outcome in the Credentials Committee until one candidate has an unmistakable lock on the nomination. At which point, their presence on the floor in terms of casting votes for that nominee will be a formality. The irony is they could have gone with the established primary schedule and been far more relevent to the process, but bought into the "inevitability" hype and wanted to have a front row seat. I believe Rendell considered doing the same thing with Pennsylvania, but decided against it, and Pennsylvania will ultimately have benefited from direct access to the nominee without the presence of McCain to offer the Republican counter-argument.

As an aside, this is the hidden benefit of a long primary process that few are acknowledging. The national debate on all the key issues is being dominated by two Democrats who's disagreements pertain more towards the nuances than general political principles. Regardless of who the nominee is, they will have had the ability to put in a campaign structure in far more states than in previous contests, and will have solid groundwork from which to run the table on the Republicans following the convention. McCain is far less fortunate. Many GOP state parties are facing serious fundraising shortfalls, and the activist base hasn't been this disheartened possibly since 1964. No amount of JoeMentum will make up for this.

In terms of how the other state parties and DNC react, threats from the FL/MI state parties of holding the nominating process hostage (via "Blood on the Convention Floor" rhetoric) or threatening to not give their full backing to the nominee during the General Election is another gamble that will invariably not pay off. If they pursue either of those strategies they will diminish their own input on future contests for decades, even if they gain some short-term benefit.

[MethuenProgressive]

106. "Michigan (and Florida) have only themselves to blame" Whoa, Nelly...

Florida's Republican leadership moved the primary, (please correct me if I have this wrong) not the State's Democratic Party. If I remember right, it wasn't up to the Democrats.

[yewberry]

130. You're mistaken.

The sponsor for the measure to move the date was a Democrat. The state Dems backed the move and lied about it.

[MethuenProgressive]

137. "The state Dems backed the move and lied about it."

You're an Obama supporter, I see.

[yewberry]

148. Beg your pardon?

For some of us, this isn't about candidates. My opinions on the subject have nothing to do with either candidate. The facts that the FDP backed the measure and lied about it have nothing to do with either candidate.

Some of us have been talking about this for a long time before it became a two-candidate race.

[Vinca]

26. Ignore at your peril? It's their peril, no matter how badly they were wronged.

If they stay home or vote for McCain, they can expect a loss of employer-provided health insurance, a continuation of free trade agreements which have devastated their state and lots of boxes with flags on them coming back from the Middle East. I'm sorry this happened to them, but it could get a whole lot worse if they allow McCain to get in office.

[Tyler Durden]

51. NO, it's EVERYONE'S peril...

Seems like you want to complain about the noise a bomb makes as it's headed for the ground instead of running for shelter.

I support running for shelter. Anything else sounds pretty damned stupid to me.

[Vinca]

95. Well, of course it's everyone's peril. I hope the people in Michigan

realize that. It's not a secret the party fucked up big time, but they've got to suck it up anyway for the good of the country and keep McCain out of office.

[Tyler Durden]

97. Hope in one hand....

Shit in the other. See which one fills up first.

Michigan is stubborn and crazy. I know, I'm a life-long resident, except for a short Texas exile.

They don't feel "...they've got to..." do ANYTHING except participate in the process, or fuck the process.

Don't dare them. They'll do it.

[Tyler Durden]

112. When you tell someone from Michigan they have to "...suck it up..." for someone else...

...When the prevailing opinion here is the rest of the country has pissed on Michigan for years now, they usual reaction is something like "Screw the rest of you. When something good starts happening here, come back and talk to me."

[Vinca]

114. Fine - do or don't do whatever you want.

McCain is the kind of person who will make sure every last one of Michigan's jobs is gone. Just saying. I was opposed to the idiotic DNC plan from day one. It was instituted to take the power away from my little state of New Hampshire. I said it would backfire, it did, but I still don't think the country should be stuck under Republican rule for another 4 years because of it.

[Tyler Durden]

121. Then join the sparse numbers calling or writing DEAN to tell him to FIX IT.

I've gotten the same aide so many times they're starting to go "uh huh" on the phone.

This is no longer a Michigan issue, and if DNC DEAN wants to stand on principle in this grindhouse of an primary, then it's my suggestion you blame HIM if and when Michigan goes "red."

[dchill]

29. "It's clear these elections they're having..."

"It's clear these elections they're having aren't going to count for anything." - Hillary Clinton, on Michigan and Florida primaries.

[Ganja Ninja]

32. How's this for a solution?

How about if they just seat the delegates from MI & FL with one stipulation. Their votes will be counted last, after the super-delegates and their votes will not be allowed to be the deciding factor in the selection of the Democratic candidate.

Chances are their votes won't put Hillary over the top anyway.

[rug]

39. I agree the penalty should be limited to no vote for the nominee on the first ballot only.

If neither clinches it on the first ballot, the convention will be thrown open anyway.

In the meantime these delegations can fully participate in the platform and other business of the convention and weigh in on the nominee after the first ballot if necessary.

[Ganja Ninja]

59. Yup they can count as long as they don't make a difference

in the outcome and chances are pretty good they won't by then. Problem solved.

[rug]

65. Actually they will make as much a difference as the other states if it goes to 2 ballots.

[kevinbgoode]

44. So the voters in Florida, for example, are finally going to get rid

of that GOP-dominated legislature? Good for them. And as for Michigan. . .well, they knew the rules at the beginning of the game, and the candidates all agreed to the terms.

And the threat is that voters in those two states will vote for McCain if they don't get their way? Sounds to me like they planned to vote for McCain anyway...and yet they disenfranchised themselves by not choosing a Republican ballot and voting for him in those primaries - after all, they already KNEW the Democratic primary wasn't going to count. . .

[newmajority]

49. What is your definition of "fixed"?

FIXED is what GranDLCholm in Michigan and NelDLCson in Florida tried to do in the first place. Front load primaries to get in on the planned Hillary coronation. Which, thank God, ended up being canceled anyway.

They broke the goddamn rules. I hear the voters aren't happy, which is understandable, but it was well publicized that THE VOTES WOULD NOT FUCKING COUNT long before the days of the non-primaries. If the voters aren't happy, take it out on the DLC shitbags who sold your states out. And in Florida's case, the still-run-by-the-Bush-Crime-Family criminal Republican government as well.

Vote for Grandpa McLoony in November? Michigan ain't gonna be that dumb. Florida will be stolen more than likely anyway.

[Tyler Durden]

93. Then you're rolling loaded dice.

Michigan voters do not give two shits about the DNC and their "YOU BROKE THE RULE" mantra.

The way they see it, NH IA and SC voted first like their whiny asses wanted, so where's your beef? Commonly heard. Shit, even my wife's HAIRDRESSER and her husband said it, and they are not very sharp tools.

[TahitiNut]

58. Sad Fact of Life: A FUBAR can't be "fixed."

The Michigan 'primary' was and IS a FUBAR. Humpty Dumpty. The Democratic Party, state and national, in their bullshit in-fighting and opportunism and collusion with the GOP, can kiss up to 5% of the vote in Michigan good-bye.

[Tyler Durden]

145. AGAIN we agree. I'm not used to this.

But I'm convinced it will be much higher than 5%.

I haven't heard a single positive word about the National Party or DNC Dean. EVER.

God help us all in November, and God Damn Howard Dean and Donna Brazille.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

61. Yes, we can / will

I think by November, enough Dem vs Rep issues will be aired, so MI will "go blue".

Whoever is on the Democratic ticket.

:thumbsup:

[ShortnFiery]

62. The good voters of MI need to hold their State Democratic Party Reps Accountable ...

for OVERTLY breaking the DNC rules and thus disenfranchizing THEIR OWN PEOPLE.

The villians (those accountable for breaking the rules) are The State Democratic Representatives who KNEW IN ADVANCE that if they choose to "break the rules" that they risked not having THEIR STATE'S votes count.

BLAME them NOT the good people of the DNC who *warned the state party reps of both MI and FL* well in advance.

[Tyler Durden]

87. See 72.

Michigan voters are not listening to you. They blame the DNC. They LIKE Levin, but they aren't fond of DEAN and and they are getting less fond of Clinton and Obama by the minute.

Tick Tock.

[ShortnFiery]

140. It don't matter - the MI State Democratic Party leaders disenfranchised the people

They - the MI Democratic State Party leaders are the ONES accountable. Set aside personalities, the DNC set the rules and agreed to assist.

You break the rules, your state loses. UNSEAT these leaders who CHEATED their constituents, NOT the DNC.

These are The DNC Rules, not a personality pissing contest ... THE RULES.

[Tyler Durden]

146. Your RULES said NOTHING about a 100% penalty.

THAT was DNC Dean's call.

And I hope I'm wrong about November. I hope the Poll was wrong. We'd all better hope.

And let's unseat LEVIN. SURE. One of the best Democratic Senators in Congress. STUPID, and dangerous here. Michigan LOVES Levin. Every time some fool says something like this, it's another shovelfull deeper digging the grave.

[Independent-Voter]

71. Sounds like the dumbass OP should be pissed at their state representatives.

[OmahaBlueDog]

72. Here's what Dean and the DNC don't get

1. They were stupid to get into pissing matches with state parties over decisions made by state legislatures.
2. 48 states, a city that should be a state, and the territories are really sick of New Hampshire and Iowa setting the tone.Why shouldn't states move up? Tradition? Those idiots who vote at midnight in New Hampshire will have their feelings hurt?
3. The voters in these states are very rightfully pissed at the Democrats, and will vote accordingly in November.

[Ganja Ninja]

77. I agree with that 100%.

They should have known this would come back to bite them on the ass. Of all the states to fuck with too. Michigan is probably the most dispossessed, long suffering and economically downtrodden state in the union. And the Democratic voters in Florida had their votes high-jacked buy the GOP & the Supreme Court in 2000. They couldn't have picked two worse states to do this to if they had tried.

[newmajority]

96. Here is what YOU don't get.

If Florida and Michigan are let off for breaking the rules this time, how many states will ignore the rules in 2012 (assuming Hillary gets away with her scam, McLoony wins, and we NEED a nominee in 2012, God help us all) or 2016?

Should every Ed Rendell with a key to the Diebold machines be able to move his or her state up in the ranks, just so they can manipulate the primary system to the benefit of their preferred candidate?

That's exactly what the DLC'ers in Florida and Michigan were doing. They wanted to be active participants in the Hillary coronation. And that coronation probably would have happened, had their violation of the rules gone unpunished.

I don't think Iowa and New Hampshire should get to make the call all the time either. But there has to be some kind of orderly process in changing that, and whatever else is wrong with the primary system. (and there is a Hell of a lot I want to change about this system, but that's a discussion for later, like maybe February 2009)

[OmahaBlueDog]

105. No, here is what YOU don't get

.. and we can play that SILLY game all day long

States have every right to determine when they hold primary elections. If the parties want to take over that process, they should pay for it. Period. If a legislature decides it wants to move a primary date, and the rule applies equally to both parties, that's their prerogative -- not the prerogative of party central committees.

This is more than Hillary v. Obama. This is all about small states having power in the primaries far in excess of their population or economic influence. You and I agree the system needs to be changed. What we don't agree upon is what gets done now to Florida and Michigan; realistically, these are states that both should have been easy Democratic wins (economic downturn in MI; housing / foreclosure crisis in FL), but we're going to give them to the Republicans because we didn't handle this situation well.

[Tyler Durden]

127. IA and NH said "fuck you" when told to give up first spot.

Personally, I hope they are just as happy with the final results of this clusterfuck as DNC DEAN.

[NJSecularist]

76. The obamites will listen to the polls showing Obama's national lead against McCain

until the cows come home. But then when they see a poll like this, they'll just engage in cognitive dissonance, put their fingers in their eardrums, and sing "la la la".

[Political Heretic]

78. Michigan did it to themselves, the need to fix it themselves

Reasonable people on both sides agree that there's no realistic way to include MI as is. Not when Clinton is on the record saying that MI results would not count, both candidates agreed that it would not count, and thus the held primary where only one candidate's name was on the ballot can't be counted as is.

A re-done primary seems to make sense, but the burden is on the STATE to stop being obstructionist, deal with the fact that this mess is THEIR FAULT, and basically do whatever the national party wants to have themselves be counted in the NATIONAL contest.

[Tyler Durden]

89. Let's see.....

I'm about to be shot at. Instead of ducking, I'll argue with the marksman about using a bullet that has a record of being less accurate.

I'd rather duck.

What you suggest will not happen. The Michigan voters don't blame LEVIN. The LIKE Levin. They don't like DEAN, and they are starting to dislike Clinton and Obama.

Time is running short to fix this, and fix it we MUST. It is far too dangerous not to.

[EFerrari]

101. Then they are clueless about who didn't care if they were screwn

in order that some crony could make a nickel. It wasn't Howard or Obama.

[Tyler Durden]

109. We LOVE Levin here.

Pick on Levin in a Union bar in Flint and you've bought yourself a fight.

[EFerrari]

113. And that's great, until he screws you.

:(

[Tyler Durden]

120. He didn't screw us....

DEAN did. His "Rules" said nothing about taking 100% of the delegates. They "suggest" 50%.

I suggest you look up Levin's Senate Record. He's one of the "good guys."

This was DNC Dean's bright idea. IA, NH and SC went first ANYWAY. There was no reason to do this except Dean EXCEEDING the rules.

Now I can REASON this out. I wouldn't suggest depending on "Joe D for Democrat Sixpack" doing the same.

Fix it. Best way out.

[Mezzo]

88. A LOT of voters in OTHER states won't 'be with the program' of disenfranchising voters.

we sort of developed an aversion to it in 2000.

[Tyler Durden]

102. If you mean in solidarity with Michigan...

Fine, or not fine.

Michigan residents are notorious for not giving a shit what other states think or do.

Comes from so many Auto jobs going to "right to work" states in the South, and from the "Oil Boom" years after 1978 where everyone one said "Last person out of Michigan, turn out the lights." I know people who are STILL pissed off about that. I'm not particularly comfy with it myself, having lost everything in the 1978 Recession.

[kevinbgoode]

111. Right. That's why y'all massed in front of the Michigan Democratic Party headquarters

and marched on the state legislature in Florida before this all happened to demand a primary that would be included.

[PVnRT]

99. OK, then, Tyler, what's your solution?

Instead of your warnings, tell us how to fix it. Since Obama wasn't even on the ballot to be voted for, I'm curious to see how you do this fairly.

ALL of the candidates agreed to the party's decision regarding Michigan and Florida, despite what some here would lead us to believe.

[jackson_dem]

100. Give him "uncommitted", which includes Edwards' votes

His surrogates in MI were encouraging his supporters to vote "uncommitted" so it is not as if they had no recourse. About 1/4 of "uncommitted" was for Edwards based on the exit poll.

[Tyler Durden]

150. Not great, but worth a try.

ANYTHING is worth a try at this point.

[anigbrowl]

107. savethevoters.org is not based in MI or FL...some background information

So I went and checked them out. Curiously, they only call on the Democratic party to review their process. While MI and FL make no difference to the GOP nomination result, you'd think they'd have at least mentioned it. Remarkably, the website includes NO information on how the situation in those two states arose to begin with. savethevoters.org claims to be non-partisan, but you'd imagine they would have included a brief factual outline of how MI and FL came to this situation.

If you look at the survey itself however (http://www.savethevoters.org/Polls/OverallTopLines.pdf) they seem to place blame pretty squarely on the DNC, pushing the notion that the DNC broke its own rules by stripping the delegates from both states rather than just half. However, their survey questions don't include an option for seating half the delegations in a similar manner to the GOP. Nor do they ask if voters think the state legislatures are at fault in any way.

Frankly, I felt that this was a bit of a push poll, and in more ways than one...but that's a side issue. Anyway, I was still curious about who was behind the whole effort.

http://www.whois.net/whois_new.cgi?d=savethevoters&tld=org

Registrant ID:GODA-044798866
Registrant Name:Herve Roussel
Registrant Street1:1701 Massachusetts Ave NW
Registrant Street2:Apt. 506
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Washington
Registrant State/Province:District of Columbia
Registrant Postal Code:20036
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:[phone]
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:[e-mail]

Mr Roussel appears to just be a web tech, and one who doesn't want phone calls at that :-) So I looked into the 501(c) filing info.


http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Company+Profile+for+SaveTheVoters.org,+Inc.-a0177986430

Company:
SaveTheVoters.org, Inc.
Headquarters Address:
5 Silver Hill Lane #8
Natick, MA

<...>
Type of Organization:
Non-profit
Industry:
Other
Key Executives:
President: A.S. Achrol
COO: A. Joseph Rao


It would be interesting to know where their funding comes from, since commissioning a poll is not that cheap, and indeed there is a cost to publicity by shooting your press releases out on businesswire.


From their website ('About us')...
SaveTheVoters.org was originally started by A.S. Achrol and A. Joseph Rao, a scientist studying neurosurgery at Stanford Medical School and a medical research scientist in Boston. The founders have long pushed for greater access to medical literature and life-saving treatments in the medical sciences and believe that the concept of access is one born out of the American way of life and is tied to access and accountability in our democracy. <...>

Well, they are certainly both scientists, though I wasn't able to find anything relating to their medical activism. Anyhoo...


http://www.opensecrets.org/indivs/search_hp.asp?txtName=achrol&NumOfThou=0&txt2008=Y&submit=Go!
Achrol, Achal Menlo Park,CA 94025 Stanford University 2/5/2008 $250 Clinton, Hillary

Draw your own conclusions.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

117. Good work.

:thumbsup:

[Tyler Durden]

128. That's not who did the poll. They just published the results.

Public Policy did the poll. Read farther next time.

[haymakeragain]

118. TELL US EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT!!!

If you want your votes to count, are you suggesting that we give them all to Hillary? Obama wasn't on the ballot, what do you think should be done, EXACTLY?

I keep hearing over and over from Michigan and Florida people about how their votes aren't going to count. At least in Florida Obama was on the ballot. I'd hardly call that election "fair" though, considering there wasn't any campaigning and the voters knew that their votes weren't going to count, so turnout was undoubtedly affected. But Michigan?

What do you want, exactly, for us to do to prevent the good people of Michigan from all voting for that loser McSame, against their interest. We are all ears.

[Tyler Durden]

129. You know the answer. It was already agreed to.

Redo the primary in Michigan. State Sen. Hudson quashed the deal. Details are unnecessary.

Just redo the damned thing. Obama will likely win, and we can then COUNT on Michigan in the fall.

This could have been solved over a month ago.

[Condem]

131. Too late, Tyler

Why did Michigan try to move ahead?

[Tyler Durden]

133. Does this matter anymore?

Sort of like demanding a seating chart in the life boat.

Better to get away from the wreck before it SINKS wouldn't you say?

STILL not too late, if DNC DEAN gets his ass turned around. But that won't happen.

[Condem]

134. So, Dean's the problem?

[Tyler Durden]

136. YES.

He could have STOPPED THIS in December; IA, NH and SC all got their little perk, and NOTHING HAD CHANGED, except ol' SCREAMIN' DEANIE had to wave his prick and show off his power. NOWHERE in the "Rules" did it say 100% of the delegates had to be removed. SURE people would be pissed, but they would get over that: NOBODY campaigning in the hardest hit state in the NATION, THEN no voice in the primary?

Please tell me: what did DNC DEAN EXPECT?? People up here to just say "oh boo hoo, we're so sorry, we'll just vote however you tell us to in November."

WOULD YOU? Be honest.

[Condem]

138. Tell me, Tyler

Is Dean wrong for the 50 state plan? We are in play in alot of states formerly untouchable. NO thanks to Hillary.

[Tyler Durden]

141. Don't play any Obama/Clinton bullshit on me.

BOTH of those assholes are responsible for the mess we are in, desperately needing swing states.

And DNC DEAN and his AMAZING 100% PENALTY PRICK WAVE OF POWER, far and beyond the "Rules" everyone is touting...YES. He's to blame.

If I could find a bookie to take the bet, I would lay a wager that in 10 years, that is EXACTLY how history will paint this.

FUCK DNC DEAN. I wish he'd choked on his scream.

[Condem]

142. Solution, Tyler?

[Coexist]

119. once the nomination is secure, a way will be found to seat the delegates.

[sniffa]

122. you know what?

Let them vote for McCain or whatever. Just like the result of 2004, we deserve whatever we get, and so do they.

[Tyler Durden]

132. Maybe that's what we deserve.

We went from 13% (generic Democrat) over ANY Republican last year at this time to THIS mess.

Democrats: Snatching Defeat from the jaws of Victory since 1968.

[Condem]

126. Damn

I just spilled my drink, I'm shaking so much. Gee, Tyler, you speak for all of Michigan?

[quakerboy]

143. Then why did Hillary stand in the way?

It would have been nice to get it fixed, but She(and her surrogates) has made it damn near impossible.

[Bensthename]

144. I am a MI voter and since I did not get to vote for Obama I will vote for McCain..

I dont care if that will effect my HC or better my chances of my children being drafted in to this war or another under McCain. Also I may be about to lose my house but that all doesnt matter because I did not get to vote in the primary. No this is not true.
MI broke the rules and it is no candidates fault.
Why would a grown ass man vote for McCain just because he did not get to vote for Obama? That is little kid stuff. Again, MI broke the rules and it is no candidates fault.
I could be mistaken but I think MI dem voters do not want a 3rd term Bush.

[FlyingSquirrel]

149. Michigan and Florida will be seated in some fashion --

But not allowed to change the dynamics of the race at this stage. The rules of the game have been set. Even the MSM has been telling people for MONTHS that the magic number is 2,024. You think they'd have an easy time convincing people that all of a sudden it's 2,208? And that suddenly Hillary, who's been behind by a nearly insurmountable margin, is now almost tied with Obama?

No, they'll play this game out to its logical conclusion now. Once Obama gets over half the Pledged Delegates, we'll see the Superdelegate Landslide. And then, once he's reached 2,024 plus a sufficient margin to prevent Hillary from pulling any fast ones...

Then MI and FL will be allowed to participate, with whatever penalty (perhaps half their delegates) is agreed upon.