How do you think Al Gore would think about pledged delegates vs popular vote in his SD decision?

[jsamuel]

Given the electoral vote vs popular vote in 2000 of course.

[Mooney]

1. The same way that he felt about electoral college votes vs. popular votes

as a candidate in 2000 --- them's the rules.

Al Gore wanted the votes counted in Florida so that he would win the electoral college votes. He never once argued that he should be given the presidency solely on the basis of winning the popular vote.

The rules are the rules. The primary is a delegate race.

[jsamuel]

5. right, but SDs are the rules too

[Liberal Gramma]

8. Does grasping at straws have any special meaning for you?

It's not going to happen. The SD's aren't going to overturn the PD votes.

[jsamuel]

10. but the popular vote may be a more relevant measure of the voters' choice than the PDs

and SDs have the ability to make that choice.

I am just thinking that since Gore won the popular vote in 2000 but lost the less accurate electoral vote, he might look at it that way.

[Mooney]

12. He wouldn't, because he knows how to read a rule book.

[jsamuel]

14. the rule book does not state that the SDs have to vote with the PDs or with the popular vote or with

any other measure, so to say that it is breaking the rules for Gore or any other SD to use one of the measures over the other is just plain wrong.

[Mooney]

16. The rule book states that the primary is a delegate race

not a popular vote race.

This is irrelevant anyway, since Hillary doesn't have a popular vote advantage either.

[jsamuel]

25. and SDs are delegates who can make their choice however they want

by popular vote if they choose

[Liberal Gramma]

22. Doesn't matter what he thinks

If it did, he'd have been President Gore. And it doesn't matter what you think. The delegate count determines the nominee.

[thoughtcrime1984]

27. Read this, popular vote is not relevant

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5667599&mesg_id=5667599

[anigbrowl]

37. Quite, but the time to debate this was 2005-7.

There will be as many interpretations of how SDs should vote as there are SDs.

But one thing (among many) that I believe they will all keep in mind is that every candidate going into this primary cycle knew how the system worked (even if a depressing majority of voters seem ignorant of the process). I didn't seen any candidates or surrogates proposing major structural reforms to the primary process during the last few years, did you? Or between 2001-3? It's a harsh obstacle course, and all candidates know this going in and must develop their strategy accordingly.

[jsamuel]

38. true, but the current rules state that the SDs could vote against both the PDs and pop vote

and that would be within the rules and therefore no one could complain. However we know that people would indeed complain even though the rules are set as such.

[lapfog_1]

39. So, in the current Democratic race... who do think is ahead in

pledged delegates? popular votes?

and why?

[jsamuel]

41. based on my opinion, Obama leads both

I think the fairest version is to exclude Michigan and include caucus states and Florida. Obama leads by 300,000 popular votes that way.

[Mooney]

11. But that's not the premise of this thread.

And if it came down to Al Gore's choice as a superdelegate, remember, he hates Hillary Clinton's guts.

[ORDem]

9. That's exactly right! The Dems didn't stretch and break the rules in 2000, the Goopers did. nt

:eyes:

[Mooney]

21. HRC = GWB

minus the charm, of course.

[Cronus Protagonist]

30. OMG!! THIS IS HUGH!!!

:sarcasm:

(What a fucking idiotic comparison)

[Mooney]

42. You raise a lot of very interesting points.

[chascarrillo]

24. That's the absolute truth right there.

[DJ13]

2. I dont think that would even be a consideration as he doesnt like the Clintons

:shrug:

[jsamuel]

6. maybe, but he has purposely kept his opinion on the race from the public for the good of the party

[cali]

13. you don't know that that's his reasoning

maybe he just felt burned by endorsing Dean so early.

[jsamuel]

15. you are right, I don't know his reasoning

but I don't think Gore has said that he "hates Hillary Clinton's guts" in public either

[tekisui]

3. I don't think that the issue is popular vs. pledged.

He, like most other SD's will think of many points. National polling, likely electoral college numbers, appeal to voting demographics, ability to raise money, tenor of the primary campaign, how they will handle pet issues, etc.

[NYCGirl]

4. Did he complain about delegates vs. popular votes in the Primary?

Apples and oranges.

[BeyondGeography]

7. Does the popular vote include all caucus states including the four where totals are unavailable?

Oh, wait, there can't be a reliable popular vote outcome. That's why we rely on pledged delegates.

[beachmom]

17. Is Al Gore president? Nope. Because the president is elected by Electoral College.

That is not how the election was stolen from him. It is the fact that he won Florida and had it stolen from him that makes me mad.

Rules are rules, and they are not going to change. Your popular vote argument is BS, since every state was run differently. It is delegate count.

[GarbagemanLB]

18. Did the GE in 2000 include caucuses?

No? Then how the fuck can there be any accurate counting of the 'popular vote'?

[book_worm]

19. It wont' matter Obama will lead in both popular vote and pledged delegates.

[jsamuel]

23. if he leads in both at the end, you are right

[SoCalDem]

20. since Al understands rules, he knows that primaries/caucuses are about delegates

</end>

[dcindian]

26. disenfranchise the caucus vote?

maybe fascism is a better fit for you!

[jsamuel]

28. those who voted in caucuses can be included like how rcp has done

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

of course caucus votes are already included besides the 4 that didn't release their totals, but they added them in

[dcindian]

29. don't like the out come just guess?

lol

[jsamuel]

31. well, if it were really important, the national party may be able to get them to release their

numbers to the DNC

[dcindian]

32. It is very important that is why they get pledged delegates.

Not sure where your going with this. They voted, they voted correctly, they should count.


Why do you wish to take their votes away?

[jsamuel]

34. huh? I am trying to add their votes in.

[dcindian]

35. votes already counted delegates given.

You are just trying to take their voice away since you don't agree with the outcome.

[jsamuel]

36. I am trying to see what the national popular vote is including their votes.

It isn't taking anyone's vote away, but adding everyone's vote together 1 to 1.

[dave29]

33. General Election vs. Primary --> Apples and Oranges

.

Besides Al played by the rules. It was taken from him.

[karynnj]

40. Note huge difference - there were NO CAUCUSES in that election

It is not the same thing. The problem in 2000 was not the electoral Congress - but the fact they cheated in Florida.

[MadBadger]

43. Pledged delegates are proportional. Electoral votes are not.

[mmonk]

44. Pledged delegates are supposed to be reflective of the popular

vote. It's done proportionally unlike the general election.

[jsamuel]

46. pledged delegates are specifically NOT supposed to be reflections of the pop vote

only a small portion of each state's total deleates are awarded by state wide vote. Most of them are awarded by congressional district. Therefore, a district with really high turnout for one candidate (rural) will get many less PDs than a district with really low turnout (urban). This is part of the reason why Obama has such a large PD lead even though his pop vote lead is not near that size. PA is a really good example of that.

[PseudoIntellect]

45. I don't know, but...

popular vote in the GE is a much more valid argument than in the primaries.

There are caucuses AND primaries in the primaries. Popular vote is not an issue unless the primaries are 100% primaries or 100% caucuses. Pledged delegates weigh the will of the people.

[anonymous171]

47. That's why he would be for Obama of course.

[my3boyz]

48. Well, Obama leads by both so I'm sure he would side with Obama. BTW, Al

was on Oprah the other day for Earth Day. He looks GREAT! He has lost a lot of weight. His face was slimmer. He looks great.

[FlaGranny]

49. Pledged delegates

and super delegates are not part of a general election, so how can you compare. Gore, in a primary, would be pragmatic about the rules. I can't see him shifting goalposts daily. He'd be accepting of the rules.