Clinton or McCain?

[BzaDem]

So many of you say that you will not vote for Hillary Clinton if she is the nominee. Since in a two-party system, any Democrat's vote not for the Democratic nominee is mathematicaly a vote for the republican nominee, who would you support?

[DemVet]

1. Hillary, of course.

[OmahaBlueDog]

2. I will vote for our nominee no matter who it is, but...

one could vote for Nader....or Jimmy Buffett for that matter.

[BzaDem]

4. Mathematically a vote for McCain. This is a two-party system, not a multi-patry-system.

[bowens43]

7. actually , it is multi-party system.

Check the ballot next time you vote.

[BzaDem]

8. It is a two-party system mathematically, regardless of how many parties actually appear on a ballot.

[bunnies]

10. Mathematically, youre wrong.

A vote for McCain = +1 to McCains total
A vote for someone else = +0 to McCains total

Voting for "other" is the equivalent of not voting at all. Mathematically speaking, it helps no one.

[BzaDem]

11. It removes a potential +1 from the Hilary's total. That +1 could swing the election to McCain.

When the probability of every other candidate winning is 0, it is a two-party system.

[bunnies]

46. Its still better than a vote FOR McCain.

I personally know a guy that refuses to vote for Hillary no matter what. Would you rather him vote *for* Mccain or not vote at all.

See... the problem with your logic is that people like my friend believe the logic to be true. Therefore, he thinks he might as well just go ahead and vote for McCain "since throwing my vote away is a vote for McCain anyway".

Wrong. Only a vote for McCain is a vote for McCain. I spent hours trying to explain this to him. But no... he repeats "throwing my vote away is a vote for McCain anyway".

So in this case, your logic backfires bigtime. McCain just got another vote.

edit: clarity

[BzaDem]

52. Fine, I guess you could say not voting is 1/2 a vote for McCain.

But it is still mathematically benefiting McCain vs. a vote for Hillary.

[Occam Bandage]

26. Mathematically, you are incorrect. It's a half-vote for McCain.

Suppose we have ten voters and two candidates, split 6-4 for Clinton over McCain. Clinton has a 2-vote lead over McCain. Now, supposing one Clinton supporter decided to vote for McCain. It would then be a 5-5 tie--there is one fewer Clinton vote and one more McCain vote. The effect of one vote switching candidates is to change the lead by two.

Now, take that 6-4 Clinton lead, and suppose one Clinton supporter decides to vote for Nader. It is now a 6-5 Clinton lead--there is one fewer Clinton vote, but McCain has not picked up any support. The effect of one vote going to a third party is to change the lead by one.

A third-party vote, therefore, is mathematically equal to a half-vote for McCain.

[Orsino]

28. At best.

Millions of adult citizens will not vote, or even register. McCain doesn't get to claim them as support--unless Scalia has some new creative interpretation of the Constitution in mind.

[Occam Bandage]

31. Well, assuming that you are a regular Democratic voter--one that the Clinton campaign

would count as a likely vote in their math.

[newmajority]

51. Yes, but we all know the Clintons can't do math.

If they could, this very poll would be unimaginable.

[SwampG8r]

44. im getting to

really enjoy reading your stuff if for nothing but the lessons in statistical applications
i have actually paid to be taught statistics and i learned more from a few of your posts (and a few other posters)than i ever have before
actually i should not say learned as i only learned the principles involved and not the process
you (and some others)have given me the huge gift of understanding what i learned

yeah that sounds right
:toast:

[democrattotheend]

43. Voting third party is not the same thing as voting for McCain

If someone votes third party, the Democrat loses a vote they might have otherwise gotten. If that person votes for McCain, the Democrat loses the vote and McCain nets one vote. So voting for McCain is worse, although I will certainly encourage fellow Obama supporters not to do either, especially if they live in swing states.

[sazemisery]

3. Alfred E. Newman. n/t

[Seabiscuit]

37. Tragically, he won't be making an appearance on the ballot next November.

[bowens43]

5. If these were the choices ,

I would vote for the candidate I feel would be the best for the country. Right now I don't know which of the two that would be.

[goclark]

9. Hard because it would either be Obama or a Republican

I understand about the Supreme Court and everything else but who is to say that she wouldn't do that as well?

Supreme Court Justice? James Carville?

[BzaDem]

14. James Carville would be an amazing SCOTUS justice compared to anyone McCain appoints.

[goclark]

55. LOL ~ sure, he would do everything his Rove Friend Wife

told him to do.

Recall how he let her know about the final "vote" for Bush.

He was the Arranger.

James Carville is a crook on the payroll for Rove and Co.

He sleeps with the enemy.

[Windy]

6. Neither... sorry, but I can't in good conscience cast my vote for her and reward her

and the party for her misconduct during the campaign.
Not only that, her policies are not any different than McCain's when it comes to the potential for future wars.

[gateley]

68. SCOTUS, Health Care,

other reasons, are why I'd happily vote for Hillary.

It's our FUTURE, not how she's conducting this campaign, or what I think of her personally. We KNOW what McCain would do to this country if he became Prez. I don't have that fear with HRC.

[TragedyandHope]

12. I cannot in good conscience hand the country over to McCain

The pressing issues the country faces are much, much bigger than what has gone on in the Primary campaign. I will not punish the country and the world for Hillary's offenses.

[gateley]

72. Perfect -

Exactly my feelings, but you expressed them far better than I. :headbang:

[Pharaoh]

13. none of the above

I will write in Obama

[powergirl]

15. Neither - I write in Obama or Edwards

n/t

[onehandle]

18. And thus, McCain. nt

[powergirl]

20. Not if enough people write in the same person

This is a different election. McCain will win if Obama is not the nominee. The African American Community simply will not vote. All the polls show this. So, enough of us who want neither could do this. But it is unlikely that the SDs will overturn the will of the people. It is a disaster.

[YOY]

16. sHillary

But don't expect me to be giddy about the same two f***ing families....

[onehandle]

17. Tombstone away, DU Mods. Tombstone away. nt

[Tyler Durden]

22. Don't hold your breath.

This is what my "alert" button has turned into:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

23. Why would you

want to tombstone someone for this poll?

I support Obama but will vote for Hillary if she is the nominee. I don't see what is wrong with asking this question. but... whatevah.

[onehandle]

48. The alternative in this poll is McCain.

That's what I'm talking about. Don't vote for Hillary, fine?

Vote for McCain? Please leave.

[RoadRage]

40. Ahhh yes... "If someone doesn't want to vote for Hillary, Ban them from the site"..

You do realize that if the Mod's banned everyone who doesn't want to vote for Hillary, then about 60% of the people who post here regularly would be gone. Then you would have a "I HEART CLINTON" site, not a DU site.

And, I believe that site already exists at Hillaryis44.org or something like that... so head that way if you want no debate, and just want to talk about how wonderful she is. If you want real debate, stick around - but don't be foolish enough to ask the mods to TS anyone who doesn't want to vote for your candidate.

[onehandle]

47. The alternative in this poll is McCain.

That's what I'm talking about. Don't vote for Hillary, fine?

Vote for McCain? Please leave.

[gateley]

71. You're right - you understood the poll, and I'll help you

escort the McCain voters off the premises.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. Neither.

[Labors of Hercules]

21. neither.

I will abstain.

[Aloha Spirit]

24. Clinton all the way, *unless* the (R) ticket looks like this...

[Catchawave]

25. Don't forget the Nader factor.....

The MSM is ignoring the fact he's creeping up in the polls in some states for the GE. That will suck off the Dem votes too.

I'm glad to see (at the time of this post) 76% of DU will still be around after the convention :D

[peace13]

27. These kind of polls and posts are the jock itch of DU....

they just won't' go away. Why do you have to ask this inflammatory question. Why is it we rarely see (I have never seen one)...Who will you vote for McCain or Obama? You are just trying to start a fight here.

[Catherina]

29. Neither. Hillary's not the will of the people

Trying to steal the nomination shows she has no respect for my vote. Unfortunately I do.

[Stop Cornyn]

30. Why not ask Zell or McCain? Zell's chance of being nominated is only nominally worse than Hillary's

[Ian David]

32. I think the mods should tombstone the 9 people who voted McCain. n/t

[New Earth]

34. I agree

:wtf:

[onehandle]

63. 14 now and absolutely. nt

[Ian David]

73. I smell vinegar and water. There are 18 giant bags of douche here. n/t

[BklynChick]

33. stay home. NYS always goes democratic so I don't think I'm personally giving a vote to McCain

[NorthCarolina]

35. Can't vote in this poll as there is not a satisfactory candidate listed

While I will vote Dem in the GE, I won't submit to a poll like this one that doesn't include all remaining candidates, I mean - what's the value, and better yet, what's the real intent?

[Galway girl]

36. it's a pity Hill supporters wouldn't back OBama

to the same extent . Something wrong there don't you think

[BzaDem]

53. I will certainly back Obama if he's the nominee.

[RoadRage]

38. A "Non-Vote" is not a vote for McCain

Vote For Hillary = +1 Hillary, -1 McCain
Vote For McCain = +1 McCain, -1 Hillary
Vote For No One = +0 Hillary, +0 McCain

If Clinton is the nominee because she has won the popular vote (not including the rediculous argument of FL or MI) and the Pledged Delegates, I will vote for her.

If Clinton is the nominee because of back room dealings with Democratic Party Leaders, then I will write in Obama, which in effect will be a non-vote for Clinton OR McCain.

I don't give a SHIT about SCOTUS noms, the Iraq War, etc... if the dem party decides that they're better then the general public at picking who they want - then they don't need my vote. So, they won't get it.

[BzaDem]

54. So I guess you wouldn't have voted for a democrat for the first part of the 20th century

when the party frequently decided they were better than the general public.

Or, I guess you simply would never vote in any other country, where the party picks the leader who can best help the party win elections.

In America, because we elect a president, presidential elections are always about personality (as opposed to many other countries, where you vote for a party and their issues). That is why Democrats don't win. And you fuel this problem, because you refuse to vote for the Democratic candidate because of their personality, as opposed to the issues.

Though I guess if you don't give a shit about the Iraq war, no amount of logic or reasoning can convince you of anything.

[TahitiNut]

61. Correct. Funny how that arithmetic is beyond the mental acumen of some.

Until there's an "AGAINST" column on the ballot, the candidate must "clear the bar" for my "FOR" vote.

[Upton]

39. Neither

I can and will not for someone who stole the nomination. Since that is the only way Clinton can win and I won't vote Republican, I would be left in a real quandary.

I also disagree with your assertion that "any Democrat's vote not for the Democratic nominee is mathematically a vote for the republican nominee." Actually, mathematically that is not the case.

[RoadRage]

41. Just join me...

And write in Obama. That's what i've decided to do if Clinton steals this... i won't vote for either, and i'll vote for Obama as planned.

[democrattotheend]

42. 9 people here will vote for McCain? WTF?

I can understand writing in Obama, voting third party, or leaving the box blank (though I disagree with all of those options if you live in a swing state), but why the hell would 9 of my fellow Obama supporters vote for McCain? That makes no sense to me.

[onehandle]

50. They should be banned. nt

[Arugula Latte]

45. Is that like that old joke about "death by bongo"?

:yoiks:

[newmajority]

49. Thank God we will never be forced to make that non-decision

As either one would mean another 4 years of the 28 year downward toilet spiral of this country.

[Lord Helmet]

56. they both suck

[ObamaKerryDem]

57. Well, that is a no-brainer..lol

Since the thought of four MORE years of Republican rule (aka destruction) sickens the hell out of me, I'd vote for Hillary. But at this point in time, it would strictly be an anti-McCain vote..:/

[ObamaKerryDem]

58. Well, that's a no brainer for me, lol..

While I'm dissapointed (to say the very least..) in Hillary lately, I'd vote for her over McCain in a heartbeat (even if it would merely be for the sake of doing so, at this point at least..) Because the thought of four MORE years of Bush type bullshit is too much for me to take..

[undeterred]

59. Cynthia McKinney

[onehandle]

62. "Bush and Gore are exactly the same"

Ralph Nader = Bush Presidency

Cynthia McKinney = McCain Presidency

[undeterred]

70. Hillary Clinton = McCain Presidency

[TahitiNut]

60. I just love how wannbe-Nazis love "Sophie's Choice" polls.

:rofl:

[anonymous171]

64. I'm so mad at Hillary right now I probably wouldn't vote.

[Hepburn]

65. I would vote for...

...neither of those RW candidates.

[smiley_glad_hands]

66. I voted Hilliary, but will reconsder depending on how she gets the nomination.

If she cheats, I don't know what I'm going to do.

[Yukari Yakumo]

67. Neither

I'd rather vote 3rd party.

Unless that's Nader, then I'll vote 4th party.

[Eurobabe]

69. Butterfly McQueen n/t

[HughMoran]

74. Thanks for allowing Skinner to tombstone 18 Freepers

lol @ fools

[Raine]

75. not voting for a reTHUGlican nt

[intaglio]

76. Actually, ask the Clinton supporters if they will vote Obama

Just don't expect them to tell you the truth. Various of their sites advocating lying so that Obama supporters won't vote against her in 2012. But this is what people expect from some of the more deranged HRC supporters

[JuniperLea]

77. Anyone who votes McCain should be banned...

What a fucking ridiculous poll... only thing more ridiculous is the idiots who actually voted McCain.

Hell in a handbasket... fuck.

[4_Legs_Good]

78. If Hillary gets the nomination in a way I deem "fair" and she conducts herself well afterwards

Then I may well vote for her. If she plays too dirty or exploits the Wright thing (which I am still sick about - about the handling of it by her and the media in complete ignorance), then I'll likely vote for a non-Nader 3rd party.

So I'd say 80% chance Hillary
20% chance Peace and Freedom

David

[Swamp Rat]

79. Thanks for helping me practice pull the lever for Hillary.

I don't particularly like her, but no way in HELL would I vote for McCain.

[JuniperLea]

82. This is where our focus should be!

McCain = Four More Years!

McCain = 100 Years of War!


We should drop all this stupid Obama vs Clinton crap and cut to the freaking chase already!

[bigwillq]

80. Clinton (nt)

[quakerboy]

81. Not sure whether Hillary or stay home

In this case, other is a valid choice, and is distinguishable from a vote for McCain or Clinton.

Mathematically, other is not the same as a vote for McCain. A vote for McCain is worth 2 votes, given my default democratic vote. A loss from the democrats and an addition to the republics. A no vote or third party is only a loss for the Democratic candidate. Which in my state has a good chance of not changing the result likely to matter, which does play into my considerations. The choices, as it were, are not binary. There is +1/0/-1, three options which result in different vote counts.

My vote would depend on what comes from her mouth in the future, on who she would pick for VP, and a number of other things. There is no way I can say with certainty what my choice will be in November, other than to say I will NOT be voting for McCain or any other person with a R next to their name, no matter what happens.