Regarding Hillary vs Obama and their respective supporters... thoughts.

[Texas Hill Country]

1. Obama can't straight up knock Hillary out of the race. I know this must be frustrating for Obama supporters. I know you want your candidate to win, but basically half the party feels very strongly about Hillary. He is not going to have an out right victory. Not happening. This will continue on and she has every right to continue on, just as a few million people should have the right to vote on which they prefer. This is not over. Please get used to that.


2. The math is irrelevant. Neither one can make it to the nomination without the Super Delegates. The following primaries are not to see who can get the most pledged delegates, but to provide the basis for an argument to the Super Delegates... arguments that BOTH of the candidates is going to have to make.


3. Hillary supporters DON'T CARE about your math. It is not going to convince anyone. Calls that this is over, that she can't win, or that our Super Delegate mommy's and daddy's need to step in and stop the democracy do not help. What it does do is serve to further entrench the divisions between us as individuals and make it that much harder to come together when we do have a definite nominee.


4. If you are really that confident in your math, why shove it in everyones face all the time? Let the race play itself out and prove your math right. Constantly going over and over the math does 2 things. First, once again, it only entrenches division and makes people mad. Second, it makes it look like the Obama supporters are nervous about loosing the nomination and starting to panic. Neither one is a good thing. Relax. Have a Mai Thai, sit in the sun, and chill.


5. There is little in the discussion that makes people more angry and resentful than telling them that their votes don't count or that their cause is now irrelevant when it is not. Don't do that. Advocating for your candidate, saying why you think yours is great, saying why you think the other isn't the best one vs the Republican is fine. But don't tell someone that their voice is irrelevant.


6. The only thing that makes me more angry than telling me the race is over when it is not, is calling me or my candidate something we are not. I am not a Republican. I am not a Neo Con. I am a Democrat. I may be more moderate, I may not agree with you on every issue, but please do not tell me or anyone else that my candidate and I are not Democrats. The Democratic Party has a big umbrulla with a lot of different kinds of people underneath it. If we are going to win, we need to learn to work together.


7. It is not Hillary or Obama that is dividing us. Nothing THEY are doing is dividing us. It is what WE do that divides. I am not saying that we have to be all hunky-dory and best friends. We can have disagreements, but we have to stop with the division or we will loose.


Anyway, those are my thoughts. Thanks for listening. Flame away. Repeat your math. Tell me I am not a Democrat. And continue to divide the party.

Have a good day.

[damntexdem]

1. Obama needs to ignore Hillary and run against McCain.

Obama has the math to win the nomination. He needs to stop letting HRC distract him from the real enemy.

[joeybee12]

2. I think you're spot on...there's really nothing BO has done in his

campaign to make me turn away from him and vote for McLame...I support Hilary and both, I believe, have run campaigns that have essentially been SOP. HOWEVER, what makes me not want to vote for him is the bile coming from some of his supporters, the nasty things they call Hilary, and their total disbelief that another person might have a different perspective on life, and therefore different views and ideas and thoughts.

Note the word "some."

[The_Counsel]

20. So, Wait ... Let Me Get This Straight...

...you don't want to vote for Obama because of something some of his SUPPORTERS may have said?

That makes complete sense to you?

Wow.

Just ... wow. :scared:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JoFerret]

14. Your sig line stinks.

.

[knight_of_the_star]

26. EPIC FAIL

I really don't think I need to say why.

[NJmaverick]

4. I don't agree with your views

1) Half the party strongly supports Obama. A significanly smaller percentage strongly support Hillary. The difference to get her 42% support are luke warm supporters.

2) This campaign was about winning the most pledged delegates. That was the goal of both campaigns and Hillary has failed.

3) It appears that math isn't the only thing that Hillary supporters don't care about. They also don't appear to care about the best interests of the party. If the Clintons some how STEAL the nomination, the party is going to suffer a mortal wound and Rove will have his permenant GOP majority.

4) The math are the FACTS of the issues, and one of the few facts the Clintons have a difficult time twisting or manipulating. So that should be what we are talking about.

5) True, which is why the will of the voters should not be thwarted by allowing the Hillary to steal the nomination.

6) I could see that making you angry, but the race is over. There is no way Hillary can win the vote. Allowing her time to continue to tear apart the party while she and her husband poke and prod for some means of stealing the nomination is not good for the party or the Country.

7) Hillary has run a nasty and disrespectful campaign. Unfortunately that has set the tone of discourse between the two camps.

[tularetom]

5. Will you feel the same way AFTER Obama gets the nomination?

Right now I'd say it's about an 80-20 proposition that he will be chosen.

I believe I know how the Clintons will react to that. What I am anxious to see is how their supporters react.

And just FYI, I am not an Obama supporter. I am a Clinton opponent.

Should she somehow pull this nomination out of her ass, i will have to reassess my intentions for the general election.

If I decide I can't support her, I will take a vacation from posting here until the election is over.

Your decision is yours alone. I don't fault you because of who you support.

[Texas Hill Country]

35. LOL, thanks for not faulting me for who I support. And I respect your opinion, we just disagree.

[mmonk]

6. If you don't see some of the dangers

then what can I say. At some point, she will be mathematically out of it with SD support because of the high number of them she must convince. The road is shortening faster than her delegate count.

[woolldog]

7. #2 is so wrong.

That was the one that stuck out to me. The fact is that the remaining primaries do matter because if Obama can build up his delegate count, he needs fewer superdelegates to push him over the magic number.

That's the benefit of having a delegate lead and the benefit of being a net winner of delegates in the remaining contests.

Clinton requires a supermajority of superdelegates. Obama doesn't.

[tekisui]

8. You had me until Math is irrelevant. That is the same as saying

delegates or votes are irrelevant.

[Qutzupalotl]

9. I disagree with a few of your points.

For the most part, they are cogent and well-presented, but I take issue with the following:

2) The math is not irrelevant. While the race will likely be decided by superdelegates, the math shows it will end with Obama in the stronger position.

4) Describing the math shouldn't make Obama supporters look nervous; it should make Clinton supporters realize the odds they're up against, if they haven't already. It may be difficult to hear, but information is never a bad thing to have.

7) The candidates are drawing distinctions; that's their job. But when they cross a line, it does divide us, and we are right to object when that happens.

You misspelled lose. :-)

[bunnies]

10. Hillary and her surrogates repeatedly ripping on Obama supporters isnt dividing us?

Right. Thats a good one.

[DazedandConfused]

11. I really enjoyed this post.

I completely agree with you. It's not over and a vigorous primary and continued discussion is good for both candidates and good for our party. This business of insulting people who support th eother candidate is just crazy. I happen to be a supporter of Hillary and am sticking by her until someone reaches 2025. When that happens, I will support whoever that is.

[BlooInBloo]

12. lol! Poor, poor Clinton supporters. It's hard to lose...

... and harder still to admit that you hitched to the wrong horse.

[rodeodance]

15. has Obama won yet? What is that magic number he needs?

[book_worm]

13. I don't know why the candidates don't pledge to see this to the end of the primary schedule

on June 3rd. And then the candidate with the most pledged delegates and popular votes will be the winner and the other candidate will gracefully endorse him or her.

[rodeodance]

16. rec

[haymakeragain]

17. GOBAMA!!!!

Just think about a new perspective, a new, fresh start. Not the same old Washington insider, divisive, polemic, partisan hatred, ridiculousness, and quite literally the same old bullshit policies constructed by the corpo-whores. Let's choose something else.

Barack Obama '08!

[emilyg]

31. Go Clinon!

[asjr]

18. You are spot on there. I have

almost quit DU several times because of the animosity here. I like Clinton, I do not dislike Obama. But every time I see a thread that disses me and other Clinton supporters as stupid and Obama is going to win, get over it, etc. it makes me wonder. Some get really ugly. Have any of you ever thought it rude? You may be trying to make those of us who have other preferences feel stupid. I don't feel stupid. I feel it is my right as a voter to support the one I want. I know I am on ignore for a lot of bloggers and that is okay. But the last time someone said they would put me on ignore made me realize most of those are ones who can't see any other scenario but their own. I can't say anything good about my candidate without someone else telling me I am wrong. So much time is taken up here dissing other bloggers. When I came to DU in 2002 I was actually very happy to have found an intelligent interactive community. DU has changed. If I want to fight about politics I have a brother-in-law who is Republican. We are at it congenially all the time. I respect his choice, I don't denigrate it.

[The_Counsel]

19. Well, Here Are MY Thoughts....

"1. Obama can't straight up knock Hillary out of the race. I know this must be frustrating for Obama supporters. I know you want your candidate to win, but basically half the party feels very strongly about Hillary. He is not going to have an out right victory. Not happening. This will continue on and she has every right to continue on, just as a few million people should have the right to vote on which they prefer. This is not over. Please get used to that."

I actually agree with this, and am used to the idea that Hillary will be in Denver. I just happen to believe that Obama will have at least 2024 delegates by the time the first vote is taken. And yes, that includes superdelegates.

---

"2. The math is irrelevant. Neither one can make it to the nomination without the Super Delegates. The following primaries are not to see who can get the most pledged delegates, but to provide the basis for an argument to the Super Delegates... arguments that BOTH of the candidates is going to have to make."

Um ... this point contradicts itself. The math absolutley DOES matter, or else what's the point? All you have to do is look at the PA primary and see my point. Using the current system, Obama didn't have to win outright, just get as many delegates as possible. Yes Hillary will NET as many as 16, but that also means Obama adds at least 71 to his total, bringing him that much closer to 2024.

See... the math DOES matter...

---

"3. Hillary supporters DON'T CARE about your math. It is not going to convince anyone. Calls that this is over, that she can't win, or that our Super Delegate mommy's and daddy's need to step in and stop the democracy do not help. What it does do is serve to further entrench the divisions between us as individuals and make it that much harder to come together when we do have a definite nominee."

...so you're saying that the superdelegates exercising their right to vote their conscience is somehow "stopping democracy?" Really? The voters have a right to weigh in, but the superdelegates don't? I hope that's not what the Hillary camp is telling the supers.

---

"4. If you are really that confident in your math, why shove it in everyones face all the time? Let the race play itself out and prove your math right. Constantly going over and over the math does 2 things. First, once again, it only entrenches division and makes people mad. Second, it makes it look like the Obama supporters are nervous about loosing the nomination and starting to panic. Neither one is a good thing. Relax. Have a Mai Thai, sit in the sun, and chill."

We can point out the math exactly BECAUSE we're confident in it. The fact that Hillary supporters think it's being "shoved in their face" suggests that they know the math is correct and that they're just unhappy with it. They'd like to ignore it, but they can't because the Obama supporters keep pointing it out to 'em. Frustrating, yes, but it's not going away. Neither is the math, and neither is Hillary. It is what it is.

---

"5. There is little in the discussion that makes people more angry and resentful than telling them that their votes don't count or that their cause is now irrelevant when it is not. Don't do that. Advocating for your candidate, saying why you think yours is great, saying why you think the other isn't the best one vs the Republican is fine. But don't tell someone that their voice is irrelevant."

Um ... no one is saying the votes don't count. They're saying Hillary simply doesn't have enough of them. Granted, neither does Obama, but he at least has a more realistic chance of GETTING enough at this point. Even Hillary backers can't deny this.

---

"6. The only thing that makes me more angry than telling me the race is over when it is not, is calling me or my candidate something we are not. I am not a Republican. I am not a Neo Con. I am a Democrat. I may be more moderate, I may not agree with you on every issue, but please do not tell me or anyone else that my candidate and I are not Democrats. The Democratic Party has a big umbrulla with a lot of different kinds of people underneath it. If we are going to win, we need to learn to work together."

Get ready to be angry again: This race, for all intents and purposes, IS over. All that is left is for the remaining supers to decide. Are you aware that Obama could still win the nomination even if the remaining supers broke 2:1 for Hillary? So no, she doesn't have to get out now. It just would have looked better on her if she did; because the only way she wins this thing is through some sort of shady back room deal--or something that can be perceived as such.

---

"7. It is not Hillary or Obama that is dividing us. Nothing THEY are doing is dividing us. It is what WE do that divides. I am not saying that we have to be all hunky-dory and best friends. We can have disagreements, but we have to stop with the division or we will loose."

I guess this is all a matter of perception, also. The fact that there still isn't a nominee divides us. The fact that Hillary seems all too willing to make the GOP argument against Obama under the guise of "the Republicans are gonna do it later anyway" divides us.

Or maybe "division" is the wrong word to use. I don't at all feel "divided" from the Democratic Party. I just don't feel I can ever get behind Hillary again because of her tactics. I live in NY. I voted for Hillary twice. But never again. I will not vote for her in the GE if she gets that far. (Relax, I won't vote for McCain either.) I won't vote for her if she runs for Senate again. I won't even vote for Obama if Hillary is his running mate. She's turned me off just that much. I'll still support Democrats I actually like, though...

---

Thanks for the opportunity to "divide the party" some more. Whatever the hell THAT means... :eyes:

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeaLyons]

21. Well done....

:yourock:

[SeaLyons]

22. K&R

[Shakespeare]

24. "The math is irrelevant."

No, it most certainly isn't. I know you don't like that, but that's cold, hard reality. Hillary CANNOT OVERTAKE HIM on pledged/elected delegates. And likely not in popular vote, either (which is a bogus criterion anyway, because it excludes caucus states). And I strongly doubt she'll even come close to him in SDs.

I'm not even an Obama supporter, but it's unavoidably true that Obama is winning. And will continue to--I think NC and IN will be conclusive in showing that, and then (thank god) this'll all be over and we can move on to taking down McCain.

[gateley]

25. When I look at the Gallup and Rasmussen polls

and see how close the two of them are, I realize that Hillary DOES have a lot of support.

I think if she were my candidate, I'd be encouraging her to stay in, too. :shrug:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

30. gateley, thanks. You were a class act when you supported Sen. Biden and you continue to be

graceful in your support of Sen. Obama.

:loveya:

[gateley]

32. Aw, thanks, BHP --

I totally understand the loyalty and commitment! :pals:


Edit to add, before I slap on my wings, in all fairness I DO get snarky, mostly about campaign tactics, rarely about the supporters, though.

[Texas Hill Country]

33. thank you for the respectful and thoughtful response. it is appreciated.

[cbayer]

27. I love contested elections

and supporters who post thoughtful and insightful OP's. Thank you.

[scheming daemons]

28. I'll answer each of your points individually... if you'll bother to read....

1. This is not over... yet. After June 3rd, it will be.

2. The math is NOT irrelevant. Yes.. they both need Superdelegates... but Obama only needs 30% of the uncommitted ones, and Clinton needs 70%. There are about 300 uncommitted SDs. Do you REALLY think she will get 210 of them? Be honest.

3. We know Hillary supporters don't care about math. It's because you don't understand it. She needs 7 out of every 10 uncommitted superdelegates to go for her. Since Feb 5th, she is +5 in SDs. Obama is +85. But somehow, you see her getting 210 of the remaining 300. She's the "establishment" candidate. If those SDs haven't gone for her already, most aren't going to. Certainly not 210 out of 300.

4. The longer this plays itself out, the more likely that John McCain wins. Obama supporters, being that we can add and subtract, already know the end result - even if you can't bring yourselves to admit it. The only person served by this continuing now is John McCain. And we, cynically - but accurately - based on her past behavior, know that this is EXACTLY what Hillary wants. Her goal is two-fold now... Either A) force Obama to select her as VP or B) kill his chances against McCain and try again in 2012. Deep down, you know that is what she is doing also.

5. Nothing tells millions of people that their "votes don't count" more than having the SDs overturn what the PDs and popular vote decided over 4 months.

6. You might not be a Republican or a Neo-Con.... but the Republicans and Neo-Cons *ARE* supporting your candidate... openly, I might add. And your candidate is echoing Neo-Con talking points more and more every day. Compare the words coming from Hillary in the final weeks of the PA campaign to the words that typically come out of Joe Lieberman's mouth. They are indistinguishable.

7. On this.... you and I agree.

[knight_of_the_star]

29. Post is Epic Win

Even if there's people on here who are ignoring what you are saying.

[Texas Hill Country]

34. Captain Common Sense LOL - that is hilarious!

[Cameron27]

36. Wonderful post Texas Hill Country!

/too late to rec. :-(