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None of us should be angry at Clinton supporters.

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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 03:59 PM
Original message
None of us should be angry at Clinton supporters.
This is a conclusion I've just reached after giving the ongoing silliness on these forums some thought. You see, I've come to the conclusion that all the arguments they're posting against Obama and in favor of Clinton are being forced on them out of a sense of loyalty and I can at least respect loyalty to a degree.

Undoubtedly, many of you would like a bit of elaboration on that.

Here's the thing. Yes, they've been posting arguments that Obama is unelectable that are patently absurd, and which even if accepted result in being forced to the conclusion that Clinton is far more unelectable under the exact same criteria. Yes they've bombarded us with claims that Obama needs to win states by up to 30 more points than he actually needs to take them by and behaved like they expected us to believe it. Yes they've gotten increasingly frantic and shrill in their denunciations of every tiny word, gesture and electromagnetic field fluctuation within a 1000 yard radius of Obama in attempts to find things to attack him on.

But, if they're going to loyally support Hillary, what choice has she really given them? They certainly can't post rational arguments for how she can still win or why she's running the way she is... they don't exist. We can't demand they produce the non existent.

I've decided I'm going to make a conscious effort to place the blame for the entire mountainous mass of infuriating absurdity being spewed all over these forums every day squarely where it belongs. On Clinton. It's not Clinton supporters fault that their candidate insists on continuing to run and declare she can win when there remains no rational argument to support her contention, that's Hillary's fault. Her supporters are just victims of her refusal to acknowledge reality and her insistence that her supporters follow her lead.

I think keeping this in mind is pretty much the only way I'm going to be able to not carry a long standing animosity towards many posters here once the pure GE campaign begins, because frankly, the arguments that do remain for Clinton have one thing in common... they are incredibly, amazingly, astoundingly insulting our intelligence. And that is one thing that really, really pisses me off. But if I can keep that directed entirely at Clinton and maintain the mindset that her supporters are just as victimized by being forced to resort to presenting these preposterous arguments as the rest of us are by being forced to read them then I can refrain from permanently associating the people posting them with a group who are calling me a moron with a 15 second memory span 150 times a day. Which is what the vast majority of these arguments are in fact doing. If you try to convince someone that they should follow your financial advice because you won a monolopy game once you're calling them an idiot... and the same is true of you try to convince someone that their candidate who is leading an election by an effectively insurmountable margin is doomed if they keep performing better in every state than they need to to maintain the effective insurmountability of that lead (among other insulting-to-our-intelligence arguments being thrown around here).

That's my new stance and I'm sticking to it as best I can. Clinton thinks we're idiots, her supporters are just forced through their sense of loyalty to regurgitate that distasteful party line. Poor people.

(Yes, I'm aware that it's quite possible, nay probable, that many of these posters would be behaving this way regardless. And yes, you most definitely can argue that every individual poster should be responsible for their own conduct... but frankly if I operate under that assumption and this goes on too much longer then I'm going to spend the next several months having the sight of any number of member names trigger a near murderous rage. So leave me my coping mechanism, if you don't mind.)
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Leadership sometimes requires inordinate passion. Other times it requires sacrifice.
Clinton is certainly passionate about winning. I just wish she had the commitment it took to take one for the team. I don't think she thinks we're idiots. She just doesn't think Obama can do as good a job as her. And perhaps, a bit, she's not being careful enough about the means to her desired ends.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Sorry, but...
...just the fact that she still expects us to believe this is some kind of neck and neck race that she could turn around with a 9 point win in Pennsylvania is flashing a giant neon "you're morons who will believe anything I say" sign at us.

I can either be furious with everyone parroting that line for calling me an idiot, or I can be furious at the one person ultimately responsible for it being spread around endlessly, while leaving room for me to live and let live with all the rest when it finally stops.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. I am not a victim and you can't make me one.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Read the end of the post. -nt
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olkaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm not angry, per se
But I am surprised and disappointed in how easily they're being manipulated by the right wing. I read about praise for Hannity and Rush, I read posts extolling the virtues of Joe Scarborough.

I would be **much** more accepting of this whole situation if the Clinton supporters would see the right-wing interference for what it is.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. Why we should
They are enabling this Republican in disguise to jeopardize a Democratic victory in November. They are giving her money and allowing her to continue this destructive campaign.

They are as much to blame as she is. The same way half of Americans were to blame for voting Bush in 2004.

I do not and will never respect ignorance.
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Bensthename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. They are supporting a dem with dem values.. Kudos to them.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. Well, you can't chose your family, but you can chose whom you will support.
I do, however, applaud your attempt at peace, but they ain't trying to hear it.


:yourock:
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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. I disagree with you.
They're spreading propoganda that's harmful to the Dems chances in November. And it pisses me off.
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gcomeau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. It pisses me off too...
...I'm just choosing to direct that pissed off sentiment to the real source of it all and skip the middle men. Which will allow me not to heap disdain on them for the rest of the election season because of what they're posting now.

Clinton can be the object of my wrath. She certainly deserves it.
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newmajority Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. There are Clinton supporters and there are Hillbots
You can tell which is which by reading this board, or listening to progressive talk radio.

I sympathize with the Clinton supporters who believed in their candidate and have to watch her fall. As I do the supporters of Edwards, Kucinich, Gravel, Richardson, Biden, and Dodd.

I have no such feelings for the Hillbots, who are no better than the Dildoheads who helped Hillary win Ohio and PA. They are here to disrupt the process, to terrorize those who would speak their minds (such as Randi Rhodes or Keith Olbermann) and to be crazed bullies.

As Hillary herself is fond of saying..... "Screw 'em".
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Robbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Hillary Supporters
I have no trouble with those who genuinly beleieve she Is better and don't use Republican talking points and attack Obama and his supporters.

I have problems with those who post here attacking Obama with using Republican tactics and attack Obama supporters as a cult.

The former Obama can work on reaching out too after he Is the nominee.The Latter will be those going over to Mccain.
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. You're right. They are doing what they can for their candidate.
That's what the process is about. I can really fault any legitimate supporter. Of either candidate.

When we have a nominee those supporters of the losing candidate will either join the Democratic campaign or they won't. Some will stay at DU and some will go. We'll win in November and all will be forgiven.

It happens every 4 years.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. "They are doing what they can for their candidate" except they aren't as they are unable to sway
Obama supporters. And DU really IS a very small place to do keyboard GOTV for Hillary
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. I think DU is a ridiculous place to do GOTV at all
Of course, the best action would be to be out on the street knocking on doors or at a phone bank or taking part in some form of voter contact. That would actually serve the candidate better than posting stuff here.
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KaptBunnyPants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. There ought to be a higher standard than loyalty to a person.
How about loyalty to a cause? How about fraternity for God's sake? I see how it works. When left wing candidates fail, we all have to rally around the nominee. When a right wing candidate fails, it's "I'll vote for McCain before I vote for that black man". They have loyalty all right, just not the good kind.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. 'EVEN THOUGH'
"Even though they (Perdue and Moore) are supporting Senator Obama they are good Democrats, and this ad is wrong,"

Clinton Camp Responds to NC GOP Ad (Finally!)

April 25, 2008 4:00 PM

It took hours for the campaign of Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, to weigh in on the North Carolina Republican Party TV ad that calls Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, "radical" and purports to attempt to harm two Democratic Tarheel State gubernatorial candidates -- Bev Perdue and Richard Moore -- by tying them to Rev. Jeremiah Wright via Obama.

The Clinton camp was in an odd spot, after all. This ad is Exhibit A in her case to superdelegates against Obama, that he will be the victims of such smears, some of them racial. So they wouldn't necessarily want to shut it down.

On the other hand, how could they not comment on an ad so many Democratic voters find offensive? Especially after the RNC and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., decried the ad? (Not to mention the two North Carolina TV stations announcing they would not broadcast it.)

So finally, from spokesman Jay Carson, comes the response to the ad against Purdue and Moore, that seeks to more pointedly hurt Obama.

"Even though they (Perdue and Moore) are supporting Senator Obama they are good Democrats, and this ad is wrong," Carson says, in a statement sent to ABC News' Eloise Harper. "It's exactly the kind of ad Republicans run every cycle to distract us from their failures and the real issues that face our country."

That's curiously worded.

"Even though" they're supporting Obama they're good Democrats? What does that mean?

Have things gotten so bitter between the two camps, do they view each other's supporters so warily, that the Clinton campaign's collective mind doubts whether Obama's supporters are good Democrats?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/clinton-camp-re.html
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
17. Many of her supporters here are much better than their candidate
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-25-08 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
18. Hillary has the better policy
Edited on Fri Apr-25-08 07:01 PM by lumberjack_jeff
As long as she does, and as long as she's running, I'm a supporter.

Explain how the opinion that Clinton supporters (unlike Obama supporters) are simply helpless slaves to our misguided and irrational loyalty, is not condescending.

Anger is preferable to condescension.

I find this view unsurprising. Obama supporters long ago dismissed the relevance of policy in this election.
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StevieM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-26-08 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'm glad you're not angry with me and I appreciate your pitty. See you in Denver (eom)
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