A "Unity Ticket" IS possible!

[Lyric]

I'm not sure why the myth that "they only add each others' negatives to each other" is constantly thrown up with absolutely NO justification, but it IS a myth.

DU hates Hillary, and that's a fact. But DU is not even close to being mainstream America. If you want to claim that neither brings anything to the table but negatives, then you need some kind of concrete background information to prove it. Without that, you're just spouting hot air because You Personally do not like the idea of a Unity Ticket.

I'm all for it, myself. Barack brings the young and the AA vote, and Hillary brings the blue-collar workers and women. It's not too late to heal the rift, despite the dire hand-wringing of those who oppose it due to personal grudges and biases.

There is a deep division in the party, and we will lose if we leave either candidate out of the equation. The time for dropping one of them has passed. Whoever gets VP has a clear path to the Presidency in 2012, and plenty of time to show the American people that the DEMOCRATS are capable of healing the divided nation, even against the odds, whereas the Repukes are capable only of making the divide even worse.

A unity ticket would be absolute 100% evidence to America that we ARE the TRUE "uniters"--and it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Clinton and Obama planned the whole thing in order to make themselves look incredibly graceful and skilled at healing division when they finally come together.

Obama/Clinton or Clinton/Obama, and I don't care which! Let's go after McCain's ass!

Edit: *my apologies for the edit of the title, but I had issues with DU a moment ago, and somehow my final version got messed up*

[JackORoses]

1. Hillary will not return to the White House. Not now, not ever!

[Lyric]

11. Thank goodness that you

are in the extreme minority.

A unity ticket would bring together far more people than it would alienate. I'm sorry that you can't find it in you to join the party and celebrate the healing process. Good luck in the future!

[PoliticalAmazon]

49. Get a hint: She's a loser, and will tank any ticket she is on. Please stop begging. n/t

[terrell9584]

2. there will be a third party challenge from the right

bank on it. It may be Roy Moore, it may be Ron Paul, it may be a lot of people, but someone will run as a third party on the right. Romney may very well have his surrogates back such a bid, the reason he dropped out is because he is under the mistaken belief that he can ever get elected President, and so he thinks that when McCain loses, he becomes the default frontrunner.

[Lyric]

9. We can hope, certainly.

I'd love nothing more than to see Roy Moore run. If he runs and the right-wingers vote for him, they get divided the same way that we did with Nader. If he runs and they *don't* vote for him, we get to hammer them for being hypocrites who care more about winning than about their precious "principles", and since their ENTIRE justification for being Republicans is based on those "principles", they'll lose their credibility and status with moderate America.

:toast:

[datopbanana]

3. BO and HRC will not be on the same ticket. sry HRC

[Lyric]

18. Ah! The IM generation makes an appearance!

Gl@d 2 C ur f1n@lly 1nt3r3sted!

Obama/Clinton, Clinton/Obama, 2008!

[datopbanana]

22. IM language as in shorter and faster right? so why would you use 1 as i, @ as a, and 3 as e?

[redqueen]

24. Trying to be cutesy.

Appealing, isn't it?

[datopbanana]

27. like i's dotted with hearts?

[PoliticalAmazon]

50. You must be a Hillary supporter. Only a Hillary supporter would insult someone...

...whose vote they need to pull of their plan.

[Genevieve]

60. That is disrespectful.

[Lyric]

71. I'm sorry.

I was out of line, and I apologize.

I have this awful tendency to see opposition as just another Rovian trying to separate us.

My fault entirely. If I insulted anyone...peace. I'm sorry.

Oktoberain.

[Genevieve]

86. I still disagree with you -- HRC on the ticket

is not a good idea, it's really a very bad idea.
Apology accepted though - you seem to be so sweet and sincere
:hi:

[Lyric]

92. Thank you

I fully admit that I am just as capable as anyone else of being irrational when I feel like my chosen candidate is under attack. Even in this thread, I found myself becoming a smartass when I had no intention of doing so. God, I hate that. And I blame Rove and his ilk for it.

In my heart of hearts...I would shrivel away and die if I thought that my own malice and judgment had contributed to a win by Rove and his minions.

Maybe someday the hurt will heal enough for us to meet halfway. I'll see you there. :hug:

Oktoberain

[redqueen]

4. Ugh.

Please... stop. Enough with this.

If we are FORCED to have to back her RW-talking-point-spewing ass eventually so be it. Do us all a favor and stop rubbing our fucking noses in it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. And it's possible to make a shit sandwich.

But I sure as hell don't understand why anybody would want to eat one.

[blogslut]

6. Meh

No thanks.

[City Lights]

7. Ah...today's secret word makes another appearance...

[Lyric]

12. Oh, how cute.

We'll miss you come November. :hi:

[redqueen]

17. Your mincing around with your smiley faces and your happy talk

ain't helpin shit.

[Vapor Trails]

13. Any time someone says the secret word SCREAM real loud!!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
"I love that story."
:rofl:

[Lyric]

15. I'm sorry you're so bitter.

It must be painful. Peace to you in November. :hi:

[Vapor Trails]

19. Peace to you too.

:smoke:

[RainDog]

16. We have a winna!!!!

lol. thank you for that one.

[Lyric]

20. Fail.

Sorry, but the party is too divided. Without both....we lose.

Thanks for playing! Here's a copy of our home game...

[RainDog]

25. the party is divided b/c of Hillary's tactics, b/c she won't drop out

even tho she can't win... so the answer is to continue to keep her around?? lol.

makes perfect sense.

[Lyric]

31. That's your opinion

The view is quite different from the other side, I assure you.

Balk all you want--it doesn't matter who's to blame. The party is divided, period. There is no path to victory that does not include both Obama and Clinton, and even if their most ardent supporters are too blinded by inflicted wounds to see this reality, the rest of America is not.

Obama/Clinton or Clinton/Obama--the only way to make sure that we get a "D" rather than an "R" in the White House.

[RainDog]

40. riiiight

if Obama put Clark or Richardson on his ticket, people would be thrilled. not so with Hillary. you are deluding yourself about Hillary's all-important presence.

[Lyric]

42. If you're ignoring the wishes of nearly half of the party

then you are the one who's blind.

We hated it when Bush ignored the wishes of half of America after his (barely) victories. And yet, some of the most loyal progressives seem willing to toss the wishes of half our party out the window, if it satisfies their own desires. Have we learned NOTHING?

Alienate half the party, and we lose.
Unite the party, and we win by an incredible margin.

[RainDog]

48. half the party has not expressed a wish to see Hillary as vp

I realize that this is the spin du jour, but it's simply not true. I do find it interesting however, that Hillary or her supporters do seem to realize in some way that she can no longer win the nomination and are now trying to coerce Obama into choosing her as a running mate.

He doesn't need her to win. The vast majority of democrats who vote do not post here. The vast majority of democrats, just as with Kerry, will vote for the democratic candidate.

Hillary is not the be all and end of of democratic politics. She is not a king maker.

Obama does not need her to win. If he does choose her, I will vote for him anyway, but I think he's smarter than that.

[Lyric]

85. Honestly? I don't believe in anyone as a "kingmaker"

I believe in unity between Democrats. Perhaps I'm part of a minority, but there have occasionally been minorities that struck out of their boundaries.

I support Clinton, but the most important thing in the world to me is that Democrats can come together and forgive each other without one side demanding that the other side sacrifice its pride. We are not the party of sadists--we are the TRUE uniters of the world. If I didn't believe that with all of my heart, RainDog, I wouldn't BE a Democrat.

Everyone is incredibly focused on winning the primary right now, but we're missing the big picture. Winning the primary and excluding a large chunk of the Dem base is going to mean a loss in November. If even one percent of the Dem base revolts due to taking offense at the actions of the primary opponent, we lose. The reality of the polls numbers says that far more than one percent of Dem voters are on the line.

Noe you can choose to believe that, or you can choose to ignore it in favor of your own theories, but I live in a state that is 75% Democrat, and yet went for Bush the past 2 elections. We here at DU are LOYAL...Dems to the bone. But nationwide? Those people are not. If we don't give them both of the candidates that have captured America's interest and passion, then we stand to lose, and all the cries of "DIEBOLD!" in the Universe will not save our country. McCain will kill us---truly. My family is the poorest of the poor working class, making less than $12k a year. Please believe me in this---ANY Republican will result in the deaths of the poor, along with our poor abused soldiers.

My pride is not so large as to risk my own family to it, but I can't force America to see things my way. In the end...compromise becomes essential. If we unite, we save the world. If we insist on hating each other...everyone in the world loses.

There is no middle ground, not when the very lives of innocent people are at stake.

I'm not asking you to become an advocate. But if you could find it in your heart to vote Dem if we manage a unity ticket...I know one poor family in West Virginia who would be incredibly grateful.

Peace,

Oktoberain

[RainDog]

96. Oktoberain

the issue, to me, is that I do not think that Hillary is a uniter. I not only do not think she is a uniter, I think she is the biggest "divider" I have ever seen. I do not think she cares about party unity at all, and I think this is evident from her campaign and the low down slime she has tried to use against a member of her own party in favor of the republicans. Pelosi called her on this when it happened. You do not get the house leader admonishing you for nothing. And it was not only Pelosi who called Clinton on this act.

Formerly I was neutral toward her. Now I despise her. Despise her. I want a woman president in my lifetime. She isn't the one. She couldn't be v.p. after the campaign she has run. She has burned too many people. She would be a terrible vp because Bill would be too nearby. Obama doesn't need them. They would be a liability to him b/c of the course of this campaign, and b/c Obama, or any other presidential candidate, would not need enemies with friends like them with their nasty tactics.

I really like Al Gore. It pissed me off so badly that he was trashed in the press over stupid things like suit colors. He has shown that he had more substance and integrity than any of the media shills who went after him. Clinton, on the other hand, has not. Gore is no fan of the Clintons either, as far as I can tell.. and since he didn't want to be associated with them for his campaign, I think that's a pretty good tell.

Apparently the democratic party elected superdelegates want Hillary to stop the crap too. And from their remarks, I would find it hard to think that any of them would wish a Clinton on Obama either.

the information is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5684770&mesg_id=5684770


(a) Hillary Rodham Clinton is such a polarizing figure that everyone who ever considered voting Republican in November, and even many who never did, will go to the polls to vote against her, thus jeopardizing Democrats down the ticket – i.e., themselves, or, for party leaders, the sizeable majorities they hope to gain in the House and the Senate in November.

(b) To take the nomination away from Obama when he is leading in the elected delegate count would deeply alienate the black base of the Democratic Party, and, in the words of one leading Democrat, “The superdelegates are not going to switch their votes and jeopardize the future of the Democratic Party for generations.” Such a move, he said, would also disillusion the new, mostly young, voters who have entered into politics for the first time because of Obama, and lose the votes of independents who could make the critical difference in November.

(c) Because the black vote can make the decisive difference in numerous congressional districts, discarding Obama could cost the Democrats numerous seats.


Based upon these issues, esp. crossover vote, she would be a drag on an Obama presidential campaign, not a draw. In election after election democrats come together behind the democratic candidate. They may not like that candidate, but they'll vote for him/her because of the option. That has been my entire political experience... except for Gore, and even then I detested Lieberman. Turns out he was also a bad choice based upon appealing to a segment of the party that cares about itself, not the rest of us.

so, I now have a candidate I actually want to vote for for the first time in my life. I'm sorry that your candidate is not going to win, for your sake, but not for hers.

If you want unity, however, Clinton has to accept that she is not going to be able to tell the rest of us what to do in order to achieve her political goals. She will not accept defeat, tho it is there. This is why I say that she is the problem. She needs to concede and call for her supporters to back Obama. That's what candidates do when they lose. that's what she should do.

[Lyric]

98. I wish I could agree with you.

Truly I do--I mean that. But to me, the fact stands that half of our party supports her. There has to be some reason behind that support, and it has to be something more substantial than what I usually read around here, which is that Clinton's supporters are uneducated, misguided, etc.

I admit that my family is poor, and *I* am poor--we made less than 12k last year, and we did better than anyone else in my family. But the way that this party is divided between the two candidates--all the reason in the world isn't going to change the minds of people who feel personally insulted. That insult exists on both sides, and we get nowhere by denying that it exists.

So it comes down to who can soothe hurt feelings the most effectively. I'm taking a good long look around me, RainDog, and I don't see anyone whose feelings have been soothed by *either* candidate. Average people identify very strongly with their candidates, and tend to mistrust the things that seem detrimental to their own pre-judgment. This certainly happens with Clinton supporters, because I've seen it. I've also seen it with Obama supporters.

In the end, the question becomes this--do we believe that there is any such thing as a person who is beyond redemption and correction? In 2000, Gore was beyond redemption--and yet, where do we see him today? I would posit that the same is true for either of our candidates. A second-place finish in the primary (and eight years worth of waiting in the interim) would be enough to "fix" whatever is wrong today. I believe this mostly because I believe that the Repukes are behind most of our problems with each other.

I'm not asking you to swear a loyalty oath to any particular candidate. I guess all that I really want is the assurance that most people here will not let hard feelings keep them from voting for a unity ticket if it should occur.

Those of us on the bottom are seriously frightened, RainDog. We need every bit of assurance that the Dems will win in November that we can get. If it takes a unity ticket to bring us together, then so be it, and my personal feelings to hell. I cannot watch people die and starve and hurt for the sake of my pride and principles.

Peace, and thank you for the polite response.

Oktoberain

[Skidmore]

8. If Obama picked Hillary as a VP, he'd have to spend all his time

looking over his shoulder to make certain she or Bill were not sticking a knife in his back. No, thank you! I used to think that a unity ticket would be desirable but that was sometime ago. I won't ever vote for that woman. Not for any office, in this election, 2012, or in my lifetime.

[Lyric]

10. That's fine! Mainstream America is not You.

The handful of grudge-holders who can't get past not getting their way ENTIRELY won't even be close to the number of moderates that we'll win over with the unity ticket. Hate all you want--you are outnumbered by America. :hi:

[redqueen]

14. Getting their way? GETTING THEIR FUCKING WAY?

:mad:

BULLSHIT!

This is about her BETRAYING THE FUCKING ACTIVIST BASE

SPEWING RIGHTWING FUCKING TALKING POINTS

SPEWING RIGHTWING SMEARS


ET FUCKING CETERA


:puke:

[RainDog]

21. Obama has already nixed that idea

most of the ppl in the U.S. are not Hillary devotees, either. they'll vote for the presidential candidate. Obama is too smart to put Hillary on the ticket.

just guessing, but if he goes with any DLC-er, it will be Clark.

I do have a book for Hillary supporters to read. It might help.

[redqueen]

23. Did you see this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5685078

"Getting their way" my brown ass.

[RainDog]

37. she and Bill dug their own graves

with this campaign. Those who aren't sitting around with their heads up their behinds know that the momentum is away from Clinton-era politics. people are sick of it.

Many of those who defended Bill over blow job gate, me included, will never again support him. never. Politics traditionally has a pendulum in the U.S. and we're coming out of the right wing/Clinton era of sleaze... from both sides.

Again, smart ppl in national pols recognize this. Jim Webb won. Lieberman couldn't win the demo nominee, and despite support from Hillary, he has now defected to the republicans and those who supported his campaign have seen just how slimy he is. What was his thank you for Gore putting him on the ticket? Fucking the democratic party.

The times are changing, redqueen. go out and phone bank for Obama. Laugh at the craziness here. It won't last.

[redqueen]

39. Thanks.

:)

The bullshit in here is making it decidedly unpleasant... I'll take your advice...


thanks again :hi:

[butterfly77]

34. Look at what the main stream has gotten us for the past few years...

Who in the hell is the mainstream,those who the talking heads tell us are, what about us who circle the mainstream, this country is about WE THE PEOPLE..

[Lyric]

41. You don't seem to understand one very important fact

"We The People" includes people who AREN'T DU'ers. People that you and I find incredibly distasteful. And their votes count every bit as much as ours.

If we want to win, we CANNOT afford to alienate half of the party. Yes, there will be some die-hard folks who simply cannot get past their own wounds and vote for the greater good, and I understand that and feel for them.

But the fact remains...the majority of the party wants BOTH. So both we shall have, or we will lose, and all the yells of "Diebold!" in the universe won't repair that loss.

Get past your personal grudge and vote for the ticket that will unite us. You'll be glad you did, even if you're too angry to see it now.

[PoliticalAmazon]

53. You are WRONG. Republicans and Democrats don't want Hillary. n/t

[Lucky 13]

26. NEVER.

[datopbanana]

28. EVER.

[psychopomp]

76. We will see unity when Sen. Clinton gets out the vote for the Obama ticket

When she throws her weight behind Sen. Obama we will see unity in the party.

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

[Uncle Joe]

29. I believe D.U. is better informed than much of mainstream America, the corporate media have been

busy dumbing mainstream America down with their endless one way propaganda.

The same corporate media that slandered Al Gore for the better part of two years prior to the selection of 2000 while giving Bush a free pass to the White House because Al Gore championed the Internet and thereby empowered the American People to go around the corporate media's information monopoly, and then go on to cheer lead our nation in to a war with Iraq based on lies, caricature Howard Dean by putting his attempt at rallying his troops on an endless loop after Iowa and then declare his candidacy dead, followed by echoing the Swift Boat attacks against John Kerry by a right wing group without any serious questioning of Bush running like a coward from the advancing hordes of Viet Cong in Alabama and if you tell me there weren't any Viet Cong in Alabama, that makes Bush a double coward.

No, I think D.U. is better informed than "mainstream America" and if we follow their lead, we will surely go down the road to hell, or whatever secular equivalent you believe in.

[Lyric]

32. Of course we're more informed

But in the end, we only have one vote apiece. The most un-informed idiot in the country can cancel out vote our in an instant.

The nation likes BOTH. Therefore we need BOTH in order to win.

I understand why this unfortunate fact galls those who oppose it, but fact it is nonetheless.

[datopbanana]

35. You are half-right. HRC needs BO but BO sure as hell doesn't need HRC

[redqueen]

The nation likes both? What nation are you talking about?

60% say they'd NEVER vote for her.

Take your blinders off.

[PoliticalAmazon]

54. Agreed. She's like genital warts: nobody wants them, and everybody wants them to go away. n/t

[Uncle Joe]

36. I'm not following the corporate media's lead anymore. n/t

[Genevieve]

65. No the nation does NOT like both --

Hillary has the HIGHEST negatives ever for someone running for president.
She'll bring us down - forget about it.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:-50U0EDtny0J:time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2007/06/new_masondixon_poll_hillarys_h.html+hillary+highest+negatives+candidate&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

[Lyric]

73. If Hillary's negatives were that high

then Obama would have won beyond a shadow of a doubt by now, and the most stubborn opposition wouldn't be able to convince anyone otherwise.

I know you hate her--I understand it, because I used to hate him too. But please...at least consider a unity ticket.

None of us wants McCain to win, and that is a chance that we're all taking if we don't unite behind our candidates soon. I would seriously rather die than to see McCain win. Rove has manipulated us long enough.

Peace and good will to you,

Oktoberain

[Shae]

72. The nation does not like both . . .

I just had dinner with 4 people who are not on DU.
All like Obama, none liked Hillary or McCain.

[Lyric]

75. Anecdotal evidence is a two-edged sword

I had dinner with four people who all support Clinton and refuse to vote for Obama. So who's right?

I spent my evening trying to convince my dear friends that the two candidates together would be an unstoppable force that the Rove machine could not defeat in a million years. Did you?

It's time to lay the grudges aside and be the Democrats we've all claimed to be--open-mindedness, free will, and everything else that has gotten left by the wayside during this primary season.

I do understand if you cannot bring yourself to do it. But for the sake of our way of life...I hope that you will. Nothing and no one is a greater danger to us than a McCain presidency--and that is precisely what we'll get if we continue down this path of Democrat-hate. Ignore the idiotic Republican talking heads around here that are constantly trying to divide us. If they cared at all about a Dem win, they'd be right here behind me. And yet...where are they? It makes one wonder just whose side these people are really on.

Peace to you and yours,

Oktoberain

[Shae]

82. I understand that it was anecdotal . . .

but you had stated that DU is not mainstream America. And yet sometimes they can be very much alike.

I did not spend my evening trying to promote a "unity" ticket. This is mainly because I have watched Hillary Clinton over the last 2 or 3 months and I no longer like or respect her, and I don't want her on the ticket. I am sure that Obama can do better.

I understand that you think they would be an asset to each other; I just don't agree.

Peace to you and yours as well,

Shae

[Lyric]

91. I understand.

I'm sorry we can't agree right now. Perhaps someday...

One liberal to another,

Oktoberain

[musicblind]

83. Thank you, I cannot BELIEVE the people who try and point out anecdotal evidence

as though it proves anything. hahahahahahahahahahaha

[butterfly77]

30. WRONG!

I will not vote for Hillary under any circumstances...Hillary will try to pretend as though she is the one running the show if he picks her as vice..and bill and his buddies will get in the way.

[IDemo]

33. Exactly. The first tri-presidency would be a disaster

[Lyric]

38. Understandable

Good luck with your life! I'm sorry, but a hundred votes from Americans who understand the value of compromise will more than make up for the loss of yours.

I want to WIN. I don't give a flying fark how we do it, so long as we do it. ANY Republican is worse than EITHER of our Dems, and that's a fact. Both of them united will do more for America than a thousand screaming haters could ever do.

Obama/Clinton, Clinton/Obama 2008. :)

[Radical Activist]

43. Any ticket with Hillary on it will lose.

She never reaches above 50% in the polls and she never will.

[Lyric]

44. That's only because the die-hards are speaking out of loyalty

before the race is decided.

Once either candidate has the nomination and chooses his or her running mate as the candidate who lost, those numbers will skyrocket.

I have rock-hard faith in this.

[Radical Activist]

46. No. In the general election among all voters she never reaches abover 50%.

People don't like her. The only place she has any significant support is within the party base and she can't win beyond that.

[Lyric]

52. I've studied the stats and I just don't see that.

If you have better ones, please feel free to post them.

[Kitsune]

47. The fact is that the numbers will not skyrocket.

Hillary Clinton has always had high negatives, even among Democrats, and her scorched-earth campaign has, shall we say, not made her any new friends.

There are a lot of people who will not be able to get over Hillary being anywhere near the levers of power after the way she's behaved.

[Lyric]

51. Sorry, but I just don't buy it.

And neither does America.

This nation WANTS a Democratic president, and uniting the party is the only way to get us there.

You want to talk Rovian tactics? Here's a Rovian tactic--divide the Dem party so deeply that even a loser Repuke candidate like McCain is a able to overcome us. The only way to get past it is to give Rove and McCain a great big Democratic FUCK YOU, and put BOTH of our frontrunners on the ticket.

And no, Hillary did not have negatives high enough to equal defeat against McCain until she and Obama were pitted in this Republican-created war against each other. If YOU want to buy into their bullshit, I can't stop you. But I'm not going to be that naive this time. No way in hell.

I don't give a damn anymore--Obama/Clinton or Clinton/Obama, but let them unite us and SOON.

[Kitsune]

56. Republicans did not create this mess.

Hillary did by refusing to gracefully bow out even after it become impossible for her to win a majority of pledged delegates.

Instead, we've got an interminably awkward and pointless struggle that has caused the damage to the party that you're now trying to assert can only be healed by a ticket that somehow involves the woman who caused the mess in the first place.

[Lyric]

70. I understand your anger

but I don't agree with it. Who has the most to gain from a Dem division? Logic and philosophy tells me that it isn't any of US.

If we turn against each other, we get nothing--seriously. We need each other to pull through in November. Please understand that I'm not trying to minimize your personal grievances. I know I get a little over-the-top sometimes, and I'm sorry if I've offended you.

But I swear to you, I will do ANYTHING to send Karl Rove and his Republican maneuvering to an early grave. I have finally gotten past my personal grievances against Obama, and I have seen the truth for what it is--all of this ridiculous infighting is NOTHING MORE than a Karl Rove manipulation that we've all fallen for.

No more. No more Rove, no more jaded, cynical NeoCon politics, and no more LOSING. We are the last hope of Democrats nationwide. If we can't come together, then unity in this nation is not possible. People are truly looking at us, waiting to see if we practice what we preach. We've talked a lot about healing the rift in America--but if we can't heal the rift in our own party, then we lose what credibility we have to run the nation.

Seriously--if we can come together and heal the divide between Clinton and Obama, then we can heal ANYTHING. We know what's at stake. It's more than personal grudges and anger. It goes so far beyond us...god, people are literally DYING for it! we can't remain divided. We must, WE MUST, come together now before Rove wins again.

If you can't bring yourself to support unity, at least don't actively oppose it.

Peace,

Oktoberain

[Genevieve]

45. lol

[AlinPA]

55. RE: "..those who oppose it due to personal grudges and biases" What about those of

us who are just p--'d off about Clinton -those of us who sent $$ to her campaign and then see her trashing a Democrat and mocking his supporters (RI speech)? There is no bias there and no grudge. Just being p--'d off at that behavior. I read your post and would like to agree, but she started it in RI with that "celestial clouds, etc" and Bill Clinton in SC saying "Jesse Jackson won SC too"... Her 3 AM stuff was a below the belt blow . Some of us have a short fuse on that stuff. Peace.

[Genevieve]

57. Her mocking us during her RI speech is reason enough to hold

a personal grudge against her.
That was utterly despicable - How she could ever think she could get our support
after that horrendous show of disrespect is beyond me.

[Lyric]

58. And peace to you.

I can't deny that there have been hits below the belt, but I no longer blame either candidate for it. I've grown past it after weeks of weirdness on my college campus, in which loyal Dems have declared that they will no longer BE Dems if their candidate doesn't win.

There's something wrong with that, and I cannot help but immediately suspect that the reason we all HATE each other SOOOOO much is because Karl fucking Rove WANTS us to. Don't you feel the same? Doesn't it seem odd to you?

I will NOT be a fucking pawn in Rove's game--not now, not EVER. I wholeheartedly believe that the things that divide us were created and egged-on by Repukes who know damned well that the only way to beat us is to turn us against each other.

I refuse to play along. I WILL NOT. Up until this point, I *LOATHED* Obama for his pandering to SC homophobic bigots, but NO MORE. I will not be made a fool of. Clinton/Obama or Obama/Clinton is the only way to make sure we stuff our victory into that smug asshole's face, and I'm all for it. No more grudges, no more believing the ridiculous Rovian spin. I AM DONE.

I'm a goddamned Democrat, and I'm supporting a unity ticket. To HELL with Karl Rove and to hell with John McCain.

[AlinPA]

61. I was expecting to be called a hater and a Rove pawn. I voted since 1960 and

never saw a Democrat act that way. I have seen a lot of Karl Roves and none of them influenced me.

People's perceptions are what matter in politics.

[Lyric]

66. Actually I agree with you,

Seriously. But when trying to decipher who has the most to gain by intra-party division, who is the first person that comes to mind?

For me, it isn't Clinton OR Obama. It's McCain. HE is the one who has the most to gain.

How would we feel if, come November, the most adamant Obama/Clinton supporters posted one final HAHA! message here at DU that proved undoubtedly that THEY were the ones behind it all? I don't know about you, but I'd be damned near insane with rage. The thought of contributing to a Rove conspiracy is MORE than enough to wake me up and make me see that the only people who lose by dividing the Obama/Clinton factions are WE the PEOPLE.

The nation needs us to be unified like never before. It's time to erase the hate of the past and move on. Karl Rove won't be giving up anytime soon, but only we can choose to fall for his tactics.

I for one will NOT be fooled. I will not be a Rovian pawn, no matter how much I wish my candidate was on top.

Screw those assholes. Let's unite and send them all to the hell they deserve come November.

[AlinPA]

74. I hope that I'm wrong, but I still sense that I'm being pegged a hater and that I'm falling

for Rove's tactics. Rove has nothing to do with my being p--'d off about Clinton's behaviour here in PA. I watched her actions for a long time here and hoped it wouldn't work for her.

[Lyric]

78. I think that Rove has everything to do with it.

I'm willing to go down as a conspiracy theorist for it, but I truly believe that neither of our Dems would have gone negative without bad advice...advice that comes from the party who has the most to gain. That party should be obvious.

Neither of them can admit it now, because admitting to being duped is akin to political suicide. The Repukes would paint you as unwise and untrustworthy. But I believe that both of them were duped by the most conniving political machine in the world--the machine built by Karl Rove.

Like I said--if you want to find out who's to blame, just ask yourself who has the most to gain. From division in our party? It isn't Democrats. It's THEM--the Rovian political machine. This is truly the only way that they have any hope of winning, and they damned well know it. There is no greater enemy than a coward, because a coward literally has nothing of value left to lose, and will resort to ANYTHING to win.

I won't be fooled and I won't be a pawn in his game. In the end...I hope you join me. I love all people who are committed to a Democratic win.

Peace,

Oktoberain

[AlinPA]

81. So you think Karl Rove influenced me? That I'm a pawn? Goodbye.

[Lyric]

90. Sorry you chose to take my words that way,

Peace,

Oktoberain.

[AlinPA]

93. You are trying hard with your point and that is very meritorious,

but many of us think on our own and are not pawns of Karl Rove. That's quite insulting and you kept repeating it to me. I care a hell of a lot about this next election. Peace to you too, sincerely I wish that.

[Lyric]

95. My apologies. I didn't meant to imply

that you were nothing more than a pawn in Rove's hand. My sincerest apologies if that's how I came across.

I am merely trying to negate what I see as a Republican division tactic within our own party. The absolute LAST thing that I want to do is to alienate members of our party. I understand your objections--maybe eventually we'll meet and agree.

Thank you for being polite and kind,

Oktoberain

[DearAbby]

59. I will not vote Hillary Clinton for Vice President

Just as I would not vote for her as President. Period.

[Lyric]

62. I'm sorry, I truly am.

But there is no way we can win by alienating half the party.

I do hope you'll reconsider, and vote Dem in November.

Peace,

Oktoberain

[DearAbby]

64. Nope...I will never vote for Clinton EVER

under any circumstances.

:hi: back at cha!

[Lyric]

67. Well then

my best wishes for you in November--and peace.

Thank you for not being insulting or cruel to me.

:hi: :kick:

[DearAbby]

68. Too you as well....Best wishes

[and-justice-for-all]

63. I think that ticket would be a one/two punch...

and a knock out! There would be no way that McSame would be able hold a candle to that. Not a chance

[Lyric]

69. And I agree wholeheartedly

but it's going to take a lot of work to convince those who've been hurt by Rove's tactics. I sincerely believe that ROVE is responsible for making Obama choose McClurkin in SC, and ROVE is behind every incident and cruelty in the months since then.

I will not be his pawn, and I will fight him until there's no breath left inside of me.

Namaste to you!

Oktoberain

[Asgaya Dihi]

77. In 2012?

So you're assuming he'd take her on and she'd try to turn him into a one term President so she can take his spot? Because otherwise the mark is 2016, not 2012.

It wouldn't work. She not only has higher negatives than about anyone in the party and would energize the right about as much as if she were heading the ticket so removes any advantage offered otherwise, but after years of Cheney showing what power the VP office could hold there's a real concern about her trying to take over and run things from the VP office. Nothing in this campaign suggests that she's a team player or willing to take a back seat to anyone.

It's not only a poor idea in tactics but a poor risk as well. Not a chance.

[Lyric]

79. Sorry--my miscalculation.

I'm more passionate advocacy than anything tonight, I guess. Too late for me to change it.

Don't hold my negligent math against me?

Peace,

Oktoberain.

[Asgaya Dihi]

80. Sure thing

I'm opinionated at times but grudges aren't my thing, especially when someone is kind enough to act like you just did. I wouldn't dream of holding it against you or her.

I still think it's a poor idea, but peace anyway, and nice to meet you O8)

[Samantha]

84. I am thrilled DU is not close to being mainstream America

And here's a good example why: today all over the MSM the talking heads were discussing whether or not it's possible Hillary Clinton is capable of trying to permanently disable Barack Obama as a competitor for POTUS -- if she loses in 2008 (as it looks like she will) she's planning to run again in 2012. My question is where has the MSM and mainstream America been for the last four years.

In 2003, I had that conversation here at DU -- only my point was that Hillary was not only (as a DLC proponent) disabling Al Gore for 2004, but eliminating the chance she would have to challenge Gore in 2008 as an incumbent going for his second term. She at that time was using crippling, nasty undercover maneuvers to do to Gore what the Clintons are today doing to Barack Obama. The mainstream media and the general public was just four years slower than most DU'ers in perceiving the true nature of Hillary Clinton.

A unity ticket? I don't think so. Hillary Clinton is not fit to govern this Country, and anyone accepting her as Number Two (for whatever reason) would have to spend the bulk of his or her time simply covering his Presidential flank.

So thanks, but no thanks, for the idea of the unity ticket.

[Lyric]

88. I understand your anger and frustration.

Truly I do. I am here tonight trying to only to make sure that the Democrats win in November.

Do you think there are no grievances and hurts on the other side? Quite a few of my GLBT brethren would likely crucify (or at least disown) me after my actions here tonight. I know what I'm risking. But my country and the lives of its citizens mean more to me than any past grudges or hurts. I care that much, truly.

I'm not asking for a promise, and I'm not asking you to frivolously let go of your hurts. I understand it--truly. I feel it too. What I'm saying is that practically all of us agree on the goals, if not the methods of getting there. And absolutely NONE of those goals can be met by allowing Rove and his ilk to convince us that we're irreparably divided. We are Democrats--healing and togetherness is our area of specialty. If we cannot convince America that we can heal the divide between *ourselves*, how can we ever expect to convince America that we can heal the larger problems of the nation?

Bush has done so much damage, Samantha...we need more than just a one or two-term President. We need America to trust us for the long-term. If any party is capable of leading us safely through the trials ahead, it's ours. We are divided...but we need not be.

Roughly half of us support Clinton, and the other half support Obama. The argument comes down to this: can we convince more than half of America that the prosperous 90's are gone forever? Or do we lose to McCain because people are stubborn by nature, and refuse to believe that those days are gone forever? It's a dilemma only Rove could have masterminded.

I personally refuse to let Rove define our party. We can have BOTH. We can have change, AND a return to prosperity. We can have hope AND security. And we can convince America that we're right, even if it takes a swallow of a bitter pill that none of us particularly like.

We the informed have a duty beyond ourselves--a duty to do whatever it takes to move America forward. And if part of that duty consists of swallowing our pride and letting go of our anger...well, at least we're setting a good example.

Please believe this, if nothing else. I have only the good of America in mind. My family is poor, and they are terrified. We need absolute 100% assurance that we will prevail, and the only way to get that is by uniting the party.

Peace,

Oktoberain

[Samantha]

94. You misunderstood - I am neither angry or frustrated

I am however committed to no longer bow to the wishes of the elitist DLC candidate for the sake of party unity. I am through with Democrats who act like Republicans and support foreign policies, such as preemptive wars, which result in millions of innocent people dying. I can't live with my conscience if for the sake of party unity I condone the policies of someone I perceive to function politically without conscience.

It is not until the base of political parties abstain (as is our civic right, regardless of what brainwashing techniques one observes here) from participating will the elite from each party cease and desist from forcing in front of our faces candidates who will implement policies detrimental to our interests. Hillary Clinton is a truly fine example of that. I have said this for years, not months, not just recently -- FOR YEARS. There is no chance I can be persuaded for the sake of party unity to vote for someone I consider to be as ethically and morally challenged as George W. Bush*. No chance.

I will vote for Barack Obama. I would have supported a number of the other potential Democratic candidates - Biden, Dodd, Edwards, for example.

I am truly sorry your family is poor and you are petrified. Odds are, the roots from whence I came are not unlike your present circumstances. But your chances of rising from poverty and improving your stead diminish with the promotion of someone like Hillary Clinton into the Oval Office. To me that is a fact not in dispute. The same is even truer with John McCain.

There is no clear cut easy answer here, but over the long haul, if we as people want political representatives to protect our interests, we must refuse to vote for those who will not. I will however, vote for the balance of the Democratic ticket.

Sam

[Lyric]

97. I understand.

Thank you for your politeness.

We get nowhere by being cruel to each other. At least *that* much we can agree on, I think.

We might not believe the same things, but perhaps in the end, we'll manage to come together.

Peace to you and your family.

Oktoberain

[StevieM]

87. It isn't going to happen. Neither wants to be VP. But the arrogance of those who so easily

dismiss Hillary and her supporters is remarkable. I don't think we've ever seen this kind of dismissive attitude before. People are literally being asked to leave the party and told that they can easily be replaced with a realignment and a new coalition.

I wouldn't count on that.

Steve

[Lyric]

89. It's wrong, StevieM.

But really it's just anger talking. We are DEMOCRATS. The biggest difference between the Repukes and us is that we actually give a damn about people other than ourselves...even people we disagree with.

I can swallow my pride for a unity ticket, because it means an absolute Dem win in November. The voters love nothing more than to see two warring factions come together and stand tall. It's the kind of "fairy tale" we can all believe in and get behind.

Peace to you and yours,

Oktoberain

[MadBadger]

99. Hillary will cause Obama to lose the Indies.

[Lyric]

100. kicking...because I believe

sincerely.