Roughly 2 million people will be disenfranchised if current FL and MI results "count"

[jenmito]

"A Problem with Seating the Florida and Michigan Delegates Based on Existing Primary Results
Among the proposed alternatives for seating the delegates from Florida and Michigan is to use the
results of the primaries that already happened, based on the argument that doing so would avoid
disenfranchising the 1.7 million Floridians and 600,000 Michiganders who already voted. However,
doing so would disenfranchise many people from Florida and Michigan who did not vote in the earlier
primaries because they did not expect their delegates would be seated at the convention. Based on a
statistical comparison with turnout in other states’ primaries, it appears that roughly two million more
people would have voted in Florida and Michigan had they expected their delegates to be seated."

http://www.dcourage.com/a/2008/03/wharton_study_flmi_results_unr.php

[Saturday]

1. That's why we have to do a redo but Obama refuses. nt

[jenmito]

3. That's a lie. He wanted to work with the DNC to remedy the situation. He refused HILLARY'S terms

and she refused his.

[joeybee12]

8. Wrong and wronger!

Nice how lies seem to become truth to BO supporters.

[jenmito]

11. Then show me where he refused a re-vote.

[joeybee12]

13. No, you show me where he came out in favor...you're the one who

started this loudicrous thread (and I should have known better than to try and inject some perspective into this)...the burden is on you.

[jenmito]

19. They were looking for a fair way to do it. There wasn't one since Hillary wanted it done HER way.

[Hamlette]

36. The Michigan legislature refused a revote and the FL dem party overwhelmingly voted against a revote

how is that Obama's fault?

Granholm and the dems in the Florida legislature who unanimously voted to break the rules are to blame.

not Obama.

[joeybee12]

9. Wrong and wronger!

Nice how lies seem to become truth to BO supporters.

[DemVet]

51. He SHOULD refuse Hillary's terms...he got his ass beat in those states the first time.

[cliffordu]

6. " I Know!!! We cannot win, so let's just BLAME OBAMA!!!"

Howzzat working for ya??

[roguevalley]

49. before the bullshit begins, read this from www.americablog.com

Hillary has made such a big deal about Michigan and Florida (because it's the only way she can now steal the election), that you have to wonder why she'd keep as two of her top advisers men who were responsible for taking those states' delegates away. I mean, imagine two of your top advisers being responsible for what you claim is your number one grievance, and then keeping them as your top advisers? If Hillary really cared about Michigan and Florida, she'd fire Ickes and McCauliffe.

From AP: Harold Ickes, a top adviser to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign who voted for Democratic Party rules that stripped Michigan and Florida of their delegates, now is arguing against the very penalty he helped pass.

In a conference call Saturday, the longtime Democratic Party member contended the DNC should reconsider its tough sanctions on the two states, which held early contests in violation of party rules. He said millions of voters in Michigan and Florida would be otherwise disenfranchised - before acknowledging moments later that he had favored the sanctions.

Then there's this from top Clinton surrogate Terry McCauliffe's book: "You won't deny us seats at the convention," he said.

"Carl, take it to the bank," I said. "They will not get a credential. The closest they'll get to Boston will be watching it on television. I will not let you break this entire nominating process for one state. The rules are the rules. If you want to call my bluff, Carl, you go ahead and do it."


When it benefits them, they don't care.

[AZBlue]

73. LIE!

[quakerboy]

86. Right after Hillary refused. Nice try though.

[joeybee12]

2. Gee, then re-vote...oh right, BO was against that...

...because Hilary would win both easily. Now THAT's disenfranchising more than 2 million.

[DJ13]

4. No, follow the rules that even Hillary supported

Dont seat them at all.

[jenmito]

7. Gee. That's not true. Hillary wanted a re-vote on HER terms with no compromises.

[joeybee12]

12. Ah, more lies! BO just wanted to split half the delegates...

...never came out in favor of a revote. What exactly were her terms? A revote is a revote...people get to vote. How ridiculous you are.

[jenmito]

16. I recall someone saying she didn't want to allow certain voters to be allowed to vote in a re-vote."

And from a Clinton supporter: "Even Bob Kerrey, one of Clinton's high-profile boosters has rejected the notion that Florida and Michigan could be put back in play: "You don't change the rules in the middle of the game. Period. . . . No new vote and no new caucuses, either. Just stick to the rules that they agreed to."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathaniel-bach/hillarys-road-to-nowhere_b_89942.html

[juajen]

24. Let me see, one person, one vote. Poor Hillary, so unreasonable.

NT

[jenmito]

31. Let me see-states breaking the rules shouldn't suffer any consequences. Sorry-wrong.

[newmajority]

54. One person, one vote???

I thought you were depending on the superdelegates to create an artificial "win" where no chance of a legitimate one exists.

[stillcool]

43. I don't suppose this matters..

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/03/17/florida_revote_plan_scuttled_m.html
Florida Revote Plan Scuttled, Michigan Plan Stalls

By Dan Balz
Florida Democrats reversed course Monday and declared dead their plans to hold a do-over presidential primary to settle the dispute over whether their delegation to the national convention in Denver will be seated.

Karen Thurman, Democratic Party chair in Florida, announced the decision in an e-mail message Monday afternoon, saying thousands of people had responded negatively to her proposal for a vote-by-mail primary in early June.

"We spent the weekend reviewing your messages, and while your reasons vary widely, the consensus is clear: Florida doesn't want to vote again," she wrote. "So we won't. A party-run primary or caucus has been ruled out, and it's simply not possible for the state to hold another election, even if the Party were to pay for it."

Friday, April 4, 2008
Michigan Democrats won't redo primary
Gordon Trowbridge / Detroit News Washington Bureau
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080404/POLITICS01/804040438/1022/rss10
Michigan's Democratic Party declared Friday that a do-over of the disputed Jan. 15 primary is not possible, ending Sen. Hillary Clinton's failed hopes for a second try with Michigan voters.

A statement released from the party's Lansing headquarters said that after reviewing revote proposals, party leaders "have concluded that it is not practical to conduct such a primary or caucus."

The decision, which was widely expected, does little to resolve the question of Michigan's role in the closest presidential nomination campaign in a generation. State party leaders must either negotiate a deal with presidential candidates Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama, or hope that the national party eases a ban on the state's delegation to this summer's Democratic National Convention.

[AZBlue]

74. LIE!

[glowing]

5. Not really... Obama has the lead Delegates, he has the money, he has

the grassroots, he has a national campaign... The delegates won't help Hillary anyway. This thing needs to end. She should have been the bigger person and dropped out a long time ago. The votes will still count in the GE and that's the real prize..

[jenmito]

10. I know. I'm just pointing out that if Hillary and her supporters were to get their way, despite

FL and MI breaking the rules, people would be disenfranchised.

[glowing]

46. Shoot if Nelson and the rest of the DLC people didn't make a big stink

about it, people in FL wouldn't even know like usual.

[Aloha Spirit]

14. There is no fair way to deal with Fl or MI. None. While the voters' preference may not be

represented in the Convention Hall, FL and MI Democrats did have their voices heard. And what they said was, the Primary voting calendar is effed up. Their voices were heard, and 2012 primary calendar will be completely different. End of story.

[Dr.Phool]

15. No revote.

I can't speak for Michigan, but you can't trust us Floridians with a ballot. When is the last time we didn't fuck up an election ?

We couldn't boil water down here with a recipe, and Julia Child. The dumbest legislature in the country, in their infinite wisdom, with the Dems colluding, voted to violate the rules, and we got punished. We deserved it. End of story.

If we get our way, after violating rules that we agreed to, what will the incentive be for other states to not violate them in 2010 and 2012?

We had the opportunity, contrary to a certain campaigns bullshit, to have a revote, and our party leaders said "NO".

Our party leaders and legislature broke the rules, got spanked, and now they and Shillary are throwing a tantrum.

Stop beating a dead horse.

[jenmito]

20. I agree...

but posters are still starting threads about how they must NOT "disenfranchise" voters by NOT having a re-vote, even though Hillary signed a pledge that MI wouldn't count and she also knew FL wouldn't count since both states broke the rules.

[juajen]

30. How many votes do you suppose Obama would lose if he

is the nominee, by refusing to allow these voters their say. Do you think he could win the GE without Florida and Michigan? He has been backed into a corner, damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't, by his own stubborness.

[jenmito]

32. A poll was just taken in MI showing Obama would NOT suffer from MI breaking the rules and therefore

not having their votes count in the primary.

[RaleighNCDUer]

45. You should be thankfulful that there won't be a re-vote in MI

cause Obama would publicly humiliate Hillary AGAIN.

The people know that Hillary and the DLC were behind this whole mess, and they would not be merciful to her.

[riona]

17. Thanks to our state legislature

They knew exactly what they were doing and what the consequences would be. They assumed they would get away with it. I don't know why anyone is surprised - all the information was made public. I don't think our votes should count.

[jenmito]

27. Exactly. And Hillary knew the votes wouldn't count and was fine with it at the time-when she

planned on a whole bunch of other states not counting, either (planning on winning the nomination on Super Tuesday).

[Galway girl]

18. Blame MI and FL = HILL was fine with it

Blame Mich and Florida . they broke the rules and Hillary was fine with them not being counted at the time

[jenmito]

22. Exactly.

They shouldn't expect to be rewarded for breaking the rules.

[lonestarnot]

21. And why go along with the rethug bullshit anyway. They chose to sit back while

thugs railroaded them and then howled like dogs after it was done. hmmmf. interesting to watch.

[jenmito]

23. MI and FL broke the rules and it was agreed to that as a result their votes wouldn't count.

Now it seems the Repubs. and Hillary both want the same thing-to change the rules.

[lonestarnot]

39. Yes, I know, and it was the thuglicons who broke the rules in the

first place. Stupid fucking governor smiling fake teethed freak.

[MonkeyFunk]

25. Nonsense

Florida had record turnout - more than twice the 2004 primary. No reasonable argument can be made that large numbers of people stayed home. If they chose not to vote, that's not disenfranchisement.

Were they disenfranchised because the property measure on the same ballot passed? Not at all.

Further, there's no indication whatsoever that the results would've been different if more people had voted. No particular candidate benefitted from the situation in Florida.

[jenmito]

28. You apparently didn't read the article.

If FL hadn't broken the rules, MORE people would've voted. Sorry-but Hillary didn't start whining about this until it was clear she couldn't win the delegate count.

[Blondbostonian]

35. Your post is nonsense

More Republicans voted than Democrats here. How many other times did that happen during the primary season? Answer- ZERO

It was about a real estate tax exemption question on the ballot. You know this is already but want to play fast and hard with the facts.

[Jim Lane]

56. Why the Florida result was skewed toward Clinton

You write, "No particular candidate benefitted from the situation in Florida."

I disagree. The absence or virtual absence of campaigning in Florida clearly helped Clinton, who had the advantage of name recognition.

The tendency in most states has been that, when both leading candidates go in and campaign, the effect of the campaigning is to improve Obama's situation relative to Clinton's. This was seen most recently in Pennsylvania, where Clinton's margin of victory was much diminished from her lead in the polls a month or two ago. This is what you'd expect when one candidate is initially better known than the other.

On DU, there've been charges from both sides that the other candidate actually did campaign in Florida. Please, spare me. You can spend all the time you want in minute analysis of whether a particular incident was a violation, or a permitted activity under the fundraising exception, or whatever. The plain fact is that, compared with other states, neither Clinton nor Obama mounted anything close to a campaign in Florida. If they had both campaigned, she might have lost, or might have won by much less than her actual 17% margin. It's unlikely that she would have maintained that kind of margin after a full-fledged campaign.

[SoCalDem]

92. yep.. she HAD to have them go early before people found out they liked Obama better

200 SDs right off the bat, early voting in CA, Mi & FL jumping the line , plus NY, NJ, NH.. and she would have had a commanding lead immediately and she expected all the others would bow to her magnificence and leave the stage.

:rofl:

Dean called her bluff and then Obama ran the table..


GAME OVER

[Ghost of Tom Joad]

62. plus

people who were not property owners had no reason to go to the polls. It was a beauty contest. Why bother if you have nothing at stake: or perhaps vote for someone you knew would not win but was your first choice.

[ecdab]

66. Ah yeah - Hillary had no advantage from having much higher

name recognition in FL than every other candidate? Hillary's leads have been diminished in every state once the candidates start campaigning in them - every single one. Yet Hillary supporters blindly ignore that fact and insist she had no advantage.

The intellectual dishonesty being put forth by Hillary and her supporters on MI and FL is really quite astounding - and that's taking in to account the normal level of intellectual dishonest they display.

[MonkeyFunk]

70. Got any evidence

that at the time of the Florida primary, Clinton had much higher name recognition than Obama?

[jenmito]

76. www.commonsense.com

[MonkeyFunk]

85. That's not a real answer

They poll people on these things. Can you show me a poll shortly before the election where Obama had significantly lower name-recognition than Clinton?

[Forkboy]

26. Most of her supporters couldn't have cared less about this until she needed those votes.

Their concern is faker than a three dollar bill.

[juajen]

34. AND, Obama would be glad to seat those delegates as soon

as they do not benefit Hillary.

[Mezzo]

29. so you'd like to disenfranchise the ones who DID do their civic duty. Go to hell.

[jenmito]

33. They knew-or should've known-their votes wouldn't count. YOU go to hell.

[sellitman]

37. Hillary disenfranchised them too.

Until it didnt suit her chances.

Its called cheating.

And that's the real problem.

[smiley_glad_hands]

38. Follow rules or vote into office Democrats that know how to follow the rules. eom

[jenmito]

40. I agree. n/t

[baldguy]

41. Reward the corrupt and/or stupid that ignore the rules & laws.

Punish the smart & honorable that don't.

How Republican.

[demwing]

42. Lets say it again - you have NO RIGHT to vote in a primary

so there can be NO DISENFRANCHISEMENT if your vote is not counted.

[CreekDog]

44. how do you count results that people were told would NOT count?

what is our alternative here?

[jenmito]

60. You don't. Unless you're Hillary or some of her supporters.

[flpoljunkie]

47. Excellent point, Jen!

[jenmito]

58. Thanks, flpoljunkie!

:hi:

[Jim Lane]

48. Obama's alleged blocking of a re-vote: link????

Several people in this thread have said that Obama blocked re-votes or refused to allow them or some such. I'd like to see that substantiated.

I thought Obama's position was simply that no delegates should be seated based on the results in the improper primaries, but that a new primary complying with the rules would be acceptable.

Beyond that, even if Obama had announced opposition to a re-vote, how would he have blocked it? Either or both of these states could have set up a state-run primary or a party-run caucus or mail ballot. If such a plan had been approved by the right people in Florida or Michigan, it would've gone forward, even if Obama had been standing on the sidelines carping about some aspect of the rules.

Clinton supporters are repeatedly blaming Obama for this situation. They should either drop that charge or back it up.

[AZ Criminal JD]

50. This has been posted many times. Obama supporters chose to ignore it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/us/politics/21delegates.html?_r=1&ref=politics&oref=slogin "Several wealthy Clinton donors offered to pay the estimated $12 million cost of the revote, but Mr. Obama’s allies in the Legislature blocked it for a variety of legal, technical and political reasons."

[wileedog]

52. You expected him to accept a bunch of HIllary Supporters

financing an election?

Seriously?

[AZ Criminal JD]

55. The state didn't have the money for a new election.

I'm sure they would have been happy for rich Obama supporters to throw in their share too. Get serious. Obama knew he was going to have his ass handed to him by voters there.

[jenmito]

63. "Mr. Obama’s allies in the Legislature blocked it for a variety of legal, technical and political

reasons." Can you blame them???

[AZ Criminal JD]

68. No, of course I don't blame them.

Obama knows he would lose so they did what they had to do to make sure there would not be another primary.

[jenmito]

77. So legal reasons ALONE isn't enough of a valid reason not to have a re-vote?

[ClassWarrior]

87. Of course not. Don't you know that the law only applies to us mere mortals?

:rofl:

NGU.

[AZ Criminal JD]

89. What legal reasons? That was a made-up excuse.

[Hepburn]

67. Point out EXACTLY where it says Obama himself blocked a re-vote, OK?

So his alleged supporters did something...BFD...:eyes:

[AZ Criminal JD]

90. Did Nixon himself break into the Watergate?

[AZ Criminal JD]

53. The paper linked in the OP plays with numbers.

They try to compare the 2008 primaries with numbers from the 2004 general election. Everyone knows more people vote in a general election than the primaries. The authors of the paper are well known Obama supporters. There were record turn outs in Michigan and Florida. They try to hide that. Count every vote!

[jenmito]

59. Sorry, but HILLARY'S the one playing with numbers! Get over it-SHE AGREED that those

states wouldn't count. And all the SMART voters KNEW they wouldn't count so they didn't go vote. Since Hillary's base is the less educated voter, I'm not surprised. Too bad.

[AZ Criminal JD]

69. LOL. So the people who voted were the dumb voters.

I wonder if Obama is going to use that if he is the general election nominee. "You people who voted in Florida and Michigan were idiots" Does that apply to Obama DUers who have posted that they voted in those two priamries?

[jenmito]

72. Sorry, but she gets the vote of the majority of people with LESS than a college education and Obama

gets the majority of people with a college education and higher. :shrug:

[AZ Criminal JD]

88. So that means they are dumb? As you put it.

It is that elitist attitude which will cause Obama to go down in flames if he is the nominee.

[jenmito]

93. Obama is NOT elitist. It's a fact that Hillary's base is less-educated. Sorry.

:hi:

[backscatter712]

57. WAAAAAAAH! THE RULES DON'T FAVOR HILLARY! LET'S CHANGE THE RULES!!!!

Her campaign has all the emotional maturity of a spoiled four-year-old.

[jenmito]

61. VERY true.

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

64. Amen.

Witless and deranged zealots.

[jenmito]

65. Thank you.

I agree. :D

[Life Long Dem]

71. This is just the nomination.

No one is disenfranchised because the GE is when everyone votes in one day.

So are all those states in previous primaries where a candidate had the 2025 early on be told they were disenfranchised as well?

[jenmito]

79. Exactly.

:hi:

[Condem]

75. Jenmito

My most valuable poster. I mean that.

[jenmito]

78. Condem

Thank you! :grr: (blushing wildly)

[RBInMaine]

80. They WILL be seated, but not by current numbers given they were AGAINST THE RULES !!

[jenmito]

81. I hope so. And Hillary won't like it one bit.

[Zhade]

82. Kick for truth

NT!

[Raine]

83. Hillary didn't care about disenfranchising them until

she needed them.

[jenmito]

84. Exactly. n/t

[SoCalDem]

91. See Terry McAuliffe's book..p 325

:)

[jenmito]

94. I wish I could.

I don't have his book. Care to share what he said? :hi:

[SoCalDem]

95. Many links here.. take your pick

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&q=mcauliffe+P325&spell=1

[jenmito]

96. Thanks! I'll take a look.

:hi:

[jenmito]

97. Wow. THANKS for that wonderful example of hypocrisy in the Clinton camp!

:hi: