Florida and Michigan Dems, my heart goes out to you, but your state parties BROKE THE RULES

[derby378]

Nobody is saying that you don't deserve to have your voices heard and your votes counted. But your state party machines decided to give Howard Dean the finger and go along with their Republican legislators in moving their primary dates.

The results in both states were skewed. You know it, I know it, and the Democratic Party at large knows it.

What both states really need is a full re-vote, but legally I don't think that's possible.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven, and it's the rank-and-file Dems in Florida and Michigan who will suffer the most for it. And that grieves me.

[LakeSamish706]

1. Good post and I approve this message.. lol n/t

[ORDem]

80. Likewise. nt

[HooptieWagon]

2. FL here

I'm down with the decision of the DNC. Our state Party leaders fucked up royally, and my anger is properly directed at them.

[Hamlette]

18. bravo

I'm from Utah. I have NEVER had my vote for president count.

NOT EVER. (My state is so red all votes for a democrat for prez get eaten by the electoral college.)

And you know what? It NEVER prevented me from voting Dem. NEVER.

If people from Michigan and Florida refuse to vote for the Dem for president because THEY broke the rules and their meaningless vote for president in a primary didn't count, I'll change out my "draft the SUV drivers first" button for a "draft ppl from Florida and Michigan first" when McCain sends our boys to Iran.

[Terri S]

71. FL here too

And my state party leadership heard from me loud and clear from the beginning. I know where the responsibility lies, so I've made my voice heard loud and clear by supporting my candidate in every way possible everywhere else.

My state party disenfranchised me, but they sure as hell didn't silence me.

[BzaDem]

3. In my view, nothing state parties do or can do should allow votes to not be counted.

I know it isn't a legal right to vote for a primary, but that's besides the point. We have decided to decide our nominee with elections, not back-room deals. And not elections with the states we happen to like. If the state parties screwed up, punish the state parties. Not the voters.

[LakeSamish706]

4. The voters were/are fully aware that there votes were not going to count, end of story.

Maybe not fair, but it certainly isn't anything that either one of the candidates had anything to do with.

[MonkeyFunk]

17. It's not the end of the story

no matter how much you guys wish it were so.

It was an arbitrary rule with arbitrary and draconian penalties - designed to protect a system NOBODY here supported a year ago.

[Duke Newcombe]

56. So, rules announced and understood, and allowed to stand...

...months before the primary are now _arbitrary_?

I not sure I understand the logic in that. Or is it a rule that's now "inconvenient" to one side, and that makes it "arbitrary"?

Duke

[Saturday]

5. We will lose both FL and MI in the GE if they are not seated someway somehow. nt

[derby378]

6. FL and MI should have thought about that before giving Dean the finger

They needed to exercise a little something called "forethought."

[davsand]

9. If you do something KNOWING in advance it is wrong, it seems somehow less acceptable.

As a parent, if my kid messes up, I have to deal with it. If she messes up and I KNOW for a fact she messed up while she KNOWS it was wrong, it pisses me off more. Somehow that comes into play for me when I talk about the Florida and Michigan Primaries.

Those Dem party leaders in both states KNEW in advance that those elections were invalid according to the DNC rules, they had been WARNED those elections were invalid, and they did it anyway. If I was in either of those states I would be working right the f*ck NOW to unseat those party leaders that screwed up so bad.

I guess I'm just a mean and evil Mom.


Laura

[Skidmore]

7. That is not a given.

I just don't buy that line.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. Because all the MI and FL dems are going to vote Republican.

Right.

Hey, I don't want your bridge, either.

[BzaDem]

11. Nope. Just enough to swing the election.

[RaleighNCDUer]

39. I'm not buying that bridge.

For one thing, very few are going to switch to Republican - and the Republicans have Florida anyway. There hasn't been an honest election there in the past decade - they're not about to start now. And Obama's going to take Michigan. The numbers are there.

This is the last gasp of the DLC, and fuck em. The people know better.

[Duke Newcombe]

57. So. Be. It. eom

Duke

[tekisui]

67. I don't buy it, and we can win the WH without them.

We shouldn't take any state for granted, and we shouldn't accept defeat on any state.

We gotta work hard in every state.

[Alexander]

86. We will lose Florida anyway...

if it's one thing the "election" of Vern Buchanan over Christine Jennings taught us, it's that we can't trust the votes that come out of Florida.

Michigan is what I'm more worried about.

[KaptBunnyPants]

8. You don't understand. The people in Michigan and Florida are too stupid for democracy.

They must be protected from the decision that their representatives made, because they're just old fashion regular folks who don't have time for "inside baseball", or whatever that means.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

29. Michigan's Gov and former Gov are Clinton supporters

they knew this would cast doubt on the process and they were bucking Howard
Dean and the DNC rules.

[HooptieWagon]

83. In FL it was DLCers

Sen Bill Nelson and State Party Chair Karen Thurman who were the principle cheerleaders to cut in at the front of the line... aided by all but one Dem in the State legislature. It was a Dem who introduced the bill. They knew what they were doing, they knew the consequences. They wanted to be big shots... also helping hillary out by frontloading the primary; not to mention they wanted to poke a finger in Dean's eye. That was the three main reasons.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

12. both states' refused "do overs"

so its already been decided.

Both states parties were invited to submit plans for new elections, as per DNC rules,
and both decided not to do so.

Michigan's state legislature declined to support a do-over.

[Hamlette]

19. and Florida's democratic party overwhelmingly voted against a do over n/t

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

26. true and less dems voted in primary than did republicans in MI and FL

which was completely different from the states that didn't break the rules

[Breeze54]

13. The Florida GOP changed the FL date, not the Dems. n/t

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

15. the vote was unanimous - they all voted for it

Florida election mayhem for 2008 | Salon NewsJul 2, 2007 ...
But everything changed when Florida moved its primary as part of an overall
electoral reform bill, which won unanimous Democratic support in ...
www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/07/02/primaries/

[93ncsu]

48. From the Salo article :

"But everything changed when Florida moved its primary as part of an overall electoral reform bill, which won unanimous Democratic support in the legislature because it also eliminated touch-screen voting."

So, in an effort to provide a more fair election, the Democrats had to agree to agree to something that they may not have otherwise.

How can the party punish the FL delegation for an action that will probably be better on the whole for the party ?

Would you rather have touch-screen voting in FL ?

[Exilednight]

53. You vote agains the bill and seperate them into to seperate bills. This isn't rocket science.......

with enough pressure both bills would have been decided properly.

[93ncsu]

76. Not so easily done ...

when you don't control the legislature.

Also, the bill probably would have passed with both provisions even if the Democrats had all voted against it. Then the Republicans go on the attack talking about how Democrats didn't want a better voting system, how they wanted to keep Florida marginalized, blah blah blah.

[anigbrowl]

77. Then you get up and filibuster against it, take your case to the media etc.

ACT to show that you are absolutely opposed to moving the primary - tell the public that it's a poison pill and generally make a fuss about it. You don't just go along blithely while making jokes in the state legislature about it.

[93ncsu]

88. If you know the Florida legoslature's filibuster rules ...

then please enlighten me. I have been unable to find them on the Florida Legislature website.

Also, Democrats are vastly outnumbered by Republicans in the Florida legislature, so a filibuster may not even have been possible.

[HooptieWagon]

85. Had a number of Dems voted against it

Then the DNC would have allowed it or made other arrangements. That particular scenerio is addressed in the rules.

[Adelante]

16. The Florida Dems voted with the Florida GOP

They are responsible.

[Breeze54]

21. LOL... like the Dems have a majority in FL?

:wtf: They were out voted. Look it up on the FL Dem Party website.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

24. the vote was unanimous. not one dissenter. not one dem

look it up it was unanimous.

If you can show where one dem voted against it in the final vote - show the documentation.

[Breeze54]

28. You should go read what was attached to that bill and the Dems are out numbered there. n/t !

[wileedog]

60. THey could have still voted against it.

If they were outnumbered the part they wanted would have passed anyway.

Fact is they wanted it. They wanted to jab their finger in Dean's eye. And now they are trying to blame anyone but themselves before their well deserved ousting.

Stop spinning.

[Breeze54]

64. BS!

And I'm not "spinning", asshat. Those are the facts.
They don't have a majority. What part of 'majority' do you not understand?

[anigbrowl]

78. No, you are the one using BS

So if they had voted against, they would have lost. but they would have been able to tell the DNC that they made an effort and protested against it. Instead they just said 'well, you've got us beat' and they all voted for it. It isn't about whether they had the ability to change the result, it's about whether they publicly aligned themselves against such an outcome and said it was unacceptable to them.

If you work in a store and a guy with a gun comes in to rob it, there's no much you can do because he's pointing a gun at you. But you don't go out of your way to help him by telling him there's a secret hiding place with more cash in it.

[wileedog]

79. the vote was 115-1 asshat

What part of they didn't even try to fight don't you understand?

[KaptBunnyPants]

82. But they all voted for it.

How do you people ignore something like that. They are not victims, and you damn well know it.

[Adelante]

37. So what?

If they had FOUGHT for the party, they might deserve some respect. They wanted this. They got it. Now they live with the consequences.

[RaleighNCDUer]

40. THEY VOTED FOR IT.

Is that so hard to grasp?

DNC rules allow for such shenanigans by the GOP and WOULD allow the seating of their delegates, had they simply been overwhelmed by the GOP legislature. By voting FOR it, instead of fighting agaisnt it, they did not show the good faith requirement. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing and what the results would be - they just expected the good people of Florida to believe their lies.

Like you do.

[Breeze54]

54. The Repubs forced the vote by adding a budget cut ... the Dems were cornered and out voted.

The Rules say you had to try to stop the primary move, but Democrats voted for the law. What gives?

http://www.fladems.com/page/content/makeitcount-faqs/#q12

Initially, before a specific date had been decided upon by the Republicans, some Democrats did actively support the idea of moving earlier in the calendar year. That changed when Speaker Rubio announced he wanted to break the Rules of the Democratic and Republican National Committees. Following this announcement, DNC and Florida Democratic Party staff talked about the possibility that our primary date would move up in violation of Rule 11.A.

Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

More...

What about the property tax reform constitutional amendment the Republicans are pushing?

In addition to the presidential primary vote, the Republican-controlled Legislature scheduled a ballot question on a constitutional amendment that will force drastic cuts in 2008-09 to local budgets that are already being cut in the upcoming budget. The amendment stands to slash local services like libraries and community centers and cut literally thousands of jobs at the municipal level – including firefighters, police, teachers, and others. While the Party does not generally take official positions on ballot initiatives, it encourages all voters to take a careful and serious look at the impact the cuts will have on their localities before they vote on this initiative.

[RaleighNCDUer]

63. Show me.

In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

What was the breakdown on the vote on those amendments?

That entire website looks like nothing but DLC apologetics. It's a big Fuck You to the DNC.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

22. Those poor Florida Democrats

Those poor Florida Democrats

by kos
Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 05:05:00 PM PDT

To hear the Clinton campaign and Florida Democrats tell it, they were innocent bystanders to their state's GOP in deciding to move their election date up prior to their sanctioned slot in the calendar.

The reality is much different:

WATCH THE VIDEO OF SEN GELLER MOCKING HIS OWN AMENDMENT TO "OPPOSE" PRIMARY MOVE

That's the Florida Senate Democratic minority leader Steven Geller overtly pretending to object to the new calendar, laughing about it the whole time.

Geller: The chair of the Democratic National Committee has of coursed threatened that if we move the primary to before the first Tuesday in February that they will sanction us at the Democratic National Convention.
So the Democratic leader and the Democratic leader pro-tem are jointly making this motion, which we will duly show to them later, that we tried not to have the election before the first Tuesday in March.

Chair: And so Sen. Geller are you urging a negative vote or would you like us to pass this vote?

Geller laughin]: Oh no sir, we really really want this, don't we senator?

Chair: I understand. Please don't throw me into the bramble bush.

They were mocking the DNC's calendar and its rules from the beginning. This wasn't a Democratic Party dragged along by a malicious GOP. Florida Democrats wanted their state earlier in the calendar

[Breeze54]

25. Not from what I read a year ago.... n/t

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

31. Geller(D) about his motion: Geller [laughing]: Oh no sir, we really really want this, don't w

Geller : Oh no sir, we really really want this, don't we senator?

Geller: The chair of the Democratic National Committee has of coursed threatened that if we move the primary to before the first Tuesday in February that they will sanction us at the Democratic National Convention.
So the Democratic leader and the Democratic leader pro-tem are jointly making this motion, which we will duly show to them later, that we tried not to have the election before the first Tuesday in March.

Chair: And so Sen. Geller are you urging a negative vote or would you like us to pass this vote?

Geller laughing: Oh no sir, we really really want this, don't we senator?

Chair: I understand. Please don't throw me into the bramble bush.

They were mocking the DNC's calendar and its rules from the beginning. This wasn't a Democratic Party dragged along by a malicious GOP. Florida Democrats wanted their state earlier in the calendar

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. If you want to get to the root of it, they DIDN'T want the earlier primary.

They (speaking for the DLC) wanted only to cause dissension in the party which they would then blame on Dean and the DNC.

They knew they were breaking the rules, and that therefore the primary would be invalidated - how does having an invalidated primary INCREASE their influence? There is only one answer - by DECREASING the influence of the DNC and Dr Dean.

In this whole FL/MI thing, the voters, the citizens, are but mushrooms standing on the street corner as they get caught in the DLC's drive-by attack on the DNC.

[Hamlette]

23. If any of the dems in Florida had voted against it, I'd be with you

but they did not.

ALL the Florida dems voted with the GOP.

They didn't have to do THAT.

What is wrong with you people. You can't blame this on the GOP

[Breeze54]

65. The GOP tied a bill to that vote about lowering property taxes

that would have caused massive cuts to basic services, etc.

At least that's the way I understand it from what I've read.

[Hamlette]

69. the portion of the debate on voting has been all over the web

its clear the dems were sticking it to Dean. It had nothing to do with property taxes.

[HooptieWagon]

84. WRONG!!!!!

A Dem introduced the bill, and the vote was 115-1... one Dem voted against it.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

14. her name only one on ticket in MI, still 42-43 % voted against her

“Her name was the only one on the ticket in Michigan and still 42, 43 percent of the vote was against her,” Clyburn said.
http://blogs.reuters.com/trail08/2008/04/24/top-house-democrat-denounces-clinton-campaign-tactics/

[mtnsnake]

34. You really need to get control over your hatred instead of spamming the board with your vitriol

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. LOL

What a sheltered life you must lead to think that is vitriol.

I could show you some fucking vitriol, but you're not worth it.

Hey, why don't you pray to your fucking Goddess of Peace to pass a miracle and REVERSE the numbers - that's the only way she's going to win.

[corkhead]

44. Truth be told, Dodd, Kucinich, Gravel, and Uncommitted were on the ballot with Hillary

Hillary only got 55% of the Democratic primary vote. I believe had it been a normal primary, she would have lost, but that is my unprovable opinion. here are the official results;



Clinton:328,309
Dodd:3,845
Gravel:2,361
Kucinich:21,715
Uncommitted:238,168
Total:594,398


http://miboecfr.nicusa.com/election/results/08PPR/01000000.html

[Scout]

74. thank you for introducing some facts n/t

[Scout]

73. you are sadly misinformed about the ballot in Michigan n/t

[corkhead]

20. I am from Michigan and I *DO NOT* want my vote counted...

It was a throw-away election, everyone who voted knew it at the time. Many I know voted in the repuke primary to try to keep Mittens in the race a little longer. I was supporting Edwards at the time but Kucinich, Gravel, Dodd (who was already out), and Hillary (who at the time I had nothing against other than I didn't think stood a chance in the general) were the only ones on the ballot.

I was told it wasn't going to count and I didn't trust my "uncommitted" vote to be used properly in the event it was to be counted somehow, so I threw my protest vote to Kucinich.

In spite of her being the only "viable" candidate on the ballot, she only got 55%.

The redo is not viable because it was an open primary and there would be no way to keep Limpball's dittoheads from creating mischief.

It's over and doesn't matter. My opinion of Hillary has greatly deteriorated since then. I am fine with our delegates being seated after Hillary drops out.

Edit to add: I an certain she would have lost this primary had it been a normal one that wasn't screwed up like it was. That is why I think she is so disingenuous to want my vote to count.

Edit again... I forgot Gravel!

[TahitiNut]

43. I'm also from Michigan ... and agree that Humpty Dumpty CANNOT be reassembled

... ESPECIALLY after every self-serving politician and pundit has feasted on the omelet.

It was and is a FUBAR. Suck it up. The Democratic Party will lose up to 5% of the vote here in November just as a result of letting the in-fighting and PRIVILEGED status of four states rank as more important than the enfranchisement of voters in the state with the highest unemployment and highest rate of home foreclosures.

As an independent, I regard the finger-pointing by state and national "Democrats" to be despicably reprehensible. The sneer and smear of folks having NO ROLE in this FUBAR and failure to accept responsibility for throwing this state under the bus reeks of political cowardice and opportunism.

[corkhead]

49. perfect analogy!

:toast:

[Kaleva]

46. Same here

I would have voted for Richardson had his name been on the ballot (my second choice at the time was Obama)but it wasn't so I voted "undeclared".

[Jensen]

27. From Florida and I agree with your statement! If I can have a re vote on this election can we have.....

a re vote for 2000! NO...I didn't think so!:cry: Voted for AL Gore it didn't count... the SC voted for me! We the DEM's in Florida have to suck it up on this one for WE didn't fight to change the outcome and Senator Clinton has to suck it up too for she signed the pledge! Enough said!

[juajen]

30. The voters broke no rules. How stupid is this?

Why didn't they punish the dem party machines in Fl. and Michigan, and leave the voters out of it. They could have been fined instead of disenfranchising voters, and still could be.

Never deny that if the shoe was on the other foot, there would be chaos to seat these delegates for Obama. I think Hillary's campaign and supporters are being very nice.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WILL DESPERATELY NEED THESE VOTES IN NOVEMBER. Obama and supporters are cutting off their nose to spite their face, as these voters are furious at being denied their vote in this important primary vote, and they know who's to blame, no matter how you spin it.

[corkhead]

35. you are not from Michigan and yet feel you can tell me what I think? How stupid is this?

[TahitiNut]

45. There's a LOT of that going around.

The arrogance of many in their self-serving posturing while alomst totally ignorant of the facts is disgusting.

[RaleighNCDUer]

42. Yep. They know who's to blame - and it is Hillary and the DLC.

Suck it up and move on.

[suzie]

62. FL voter here who is really, really tired of Clinton supporters

who feel so sorry for Democrats in Florida. The party leaders are to blame, as someone else said. They had a year to do something and they started in March 2008 to make new plans.

It wasn't possible to do a re-vote in a traditional manner--the supervisors of elections vetoed that. A mail-in ballot was proposed--the Florida Congressional Delegation vetoed it.

Florida voters went to the polls thinking their votes for the presidential primary wouldn't count. Just like in 2004, when the candidate was already decided by the time of the Florida primary. But, there was major property tax item also on the ballot--the last time I heard our votes counted for that.

Florida elections seem to have a tendency not to go smoothly. The worst that could have happened would have been a totally messed up redo that would have left half the electorate unhappy.

And most Democrats who actually live in the state are pretty aware that, unlike what we hear every day from the Clinton campaign, FLORIDA IS A RED STATE that rarely elects Democrats. Better to focus on Colorado, Virginia, Oregon, New Mexico, New Hampshire--states that the Democrats might actually win instead of the fairy tale that Clinton spins about "we have to have Florida".

[Unbowed]

32. This should have been settled before now.

It's pretty much too late to do anything. Right now, a re-vote would simply drag this primary out longer than it it is already being dragged out.

The voters in Michigan and Florida should have been given another chance to vote and Democrats around the country asked to help with the costs. I'd have pitched in a few bucks for those voters, especially the ones who never went to the polls because they were told it wouldn't count. But it's not likely to happen now.

However, there is something the Democrats of Michigan and Florida can do in place of a single vote in a primary: they can jump on the bandwagon for their candidate of choice. Give money, if they have it. Make a phone call to voters in an upcoming primary state. Create a blog for their favorite candidate.

JOIN the primary as an activist. It's getting down to the wire and Democrats need to realize that casting a single vote is the least of what we need to do in a Presidential election year.

[Jensen]

36. That's what I'm doing instead of "What IF!

[Unbowed]

61. Good for you.

Don't know who you're supporting & it doesn't matter. You're putting your effort into the process and that's what counts. Bravo.

[PassingFair]

33. Michigan voter here...

I think it would be a travesty to seat our delegates.

Many Michiganders voted for republicans to skew the
votes because their choices (Edwards, Biden, Richardson
and Obama) were not available to them.

All candidates pledged to "not participate" in
the invalid primary.

We will vote Dem in November.

A lot of tough talk here now, with each
side posturing, so the other will take
the threat seriously.

[TahitiNut]

51. I largely agree, except I think that up to 5% will vote GOP or stay home.

The February FUBAR cannot be undone. People are "bitter" and there weren't any Democrats willing to step forward and confront the economic mess that's Michigan. Parents are watching their college-educated kids move to the sunbelt while gasoline prices soar and their home values are plummeting. Blue collar workers - union workers - have watched their jobs disappear off-shore. We have college graduates mowing lawns and asking "do you want fries with that?" Schools are being closed everywhere. And what does Hillary (and, to a lesser extent, Obama) propose for unemployment? "Training and education!" She's so fucking tone-deaf it's appalling.

:grr:

[PassingFair]

52. If enough voices were raised to put the blame where it BELONGED...

with the Bush Administration, who hung our INDUSTRIES
OUT TO DRY, they would vote Dem.

Hell, we re-elected Granholm, even though she is
generally disliked.

I am SHOCKED by the silent PASSIVENESS with which
the Michigan electorate is taking our downfall.

Most people are *ucking CLUELESS.

[spoony]

47. Howard Dean's ego does not matter more than millions of votes.

I don't care if his wittle feelings got hurted by the states breaking some arbitrary rule. It does not excuse the punishment, which was NOT put upon our states' parties. It was put upon VOTERS. I've accepted that there will be no justice on the matter, but I do rather wish DUers would quit rubbing our noses in it.

[suston96]

50. Sorry, this warped logic won't fly......state parties cannot deny its members its voting rights.....

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:i1Dy8P2UOcoJ:www.democrats.org/pdfs/charter.pdf+Democratic+Party+Charter&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

"(a) assure all Democratic voters full, timely and equal opportunity to participate .....

(b) assure that delegations fairly reflect the division of preferences expressed by those who
participate in the Presidential nominating process..."

No state party "rules" can change the Charter! Only a national convention can do that.

[Honeycombe8]

55. They COULD hold their primaries again, but they won't. They don't wanna pay for it.

Pretty interesting way to look at things:

I break the rules of a club...club warns me....I follow thru and complete the breaking of the rules....the club takes my privileges away for infraction of their rules....I insist on having my privileges back again.....club says okay, if I start over and re-do the project without breaking the rules this time....I say I won't do that unless the club pays for it. Club says no. I cry and say my civil rights have been violated.

Pretty interesting take on things.

[spoony]

59. First of all, voting is not a "privelege"

It is a right. Second, the "club" did not take away the "priveleges" of people who broke the rules, it took them from people who had nothing whatsoever to do with those rules or the keeping of them or the enforcement of them.

[Liberal Veteran]

70. Honestly, there is no constitutional requirement for popular vote primaries.

It's all up to the states and the parties to determine how delegates are sent to conventions.

[kwenu]

58. FL and MI have serious issues with their state party leadership that they will need to address.

[QC]

66. All this talk of rules and order reminds me of Florida in 2000,

when the Republicans could not say enough about the vital importance of sticking to those rules that said all chads had to be completely detached even if the voter's intention were perfectly clear.

It's amazing what people will go along with to give an advantage to their candidate.

[newmajority]

68. Tell it to your pal Terry McUseless

"I'm going outside the primary window," Michigan Sen. Carl Levin told me definitively.

"If I allow you to do that, the whole system collapses," I said. "We will have chaos. I let you make your case to the DNC, and we voted unanimously and you lost."

He kept insisting that they were going to move up Michigan on their own, even though if they did that, they would lose half their delegates. By that point Carl and I were leaning toward each other over a table in the middle of the room, shouting and dropping the occasional expletive.

"You won't deny us seats at the convention," he said.

"Carl, take it to the bank," I said. "They will not get a credential. The closest they'll get to Boston will be watching it on television. I will not let you break this entire nominating process for one state. The rules are the rules. If you want to call my bluff, Carl, you go ahead and do it."

We glared at each other some more, but there was nothing much left to say. I was holding all the cards and Levin knew it.

(Source: McAuliffe, Terry. What A Party!, p. 325.)

Terry was right then, as much as it pains me to say it. And even though the DNC is in much better hands now, this is one case where Howard Dean should follow the previous example.

[QC]

72. We're pals? I had no idea!

Aside from that especially sophomoric little bit of silliness, it's not hard to see why you think that this was the one good thing McAuliffe ever did--it advantages your candidate. Conversely, if counting these two states would help Obama, you would be arguing just as strenuously that democracy requires that all votes be counted.

Meanwhile, Obama's nomination will be tainted in the same way that Bush's presidency is--gotta love that asterisk--and we will probably lose two of the largest states in November. This is a Pyhrric victory if ever there was one.

[HuffleClaw]

75. so the voters should suffer for the actions of a handful of jamokes?

doesn't sound fair to me

[KaptBunnyPants]

81. Those jamokes would be their elected representatives.

Seems like that would be the logical place to direct your anger. They created this situation, and they are the only thing stopping a fair compromise from being worked out. Of course, once the matter is settled Hillary no longer has a case for why she's running, so I don't expect that they will do anything to fix the situation. Far better to scream disenfranchisement at the convention if it hurts the national party, which seems to be their goal.

[Ed76638]

87. It's well understood that my state broke the rules, however

It was still a bitch move to strip my state (Florida) of all its delegates. Even the Rethuglicans were smart enough to strip only half of the delegates. Because of that decision, I have to listen Hillary bitch and moan about Fl and MI, even though she will still lose the nomination if those states counted.