Men and abortions. Who are they to decide what a woman should do?

[Blue_Roses]

I get so sick of the right talking about "partial-birth" abortion as if they know what the hell they're talking about. For one, it's not called that--except by the rwingers--and secondly, once again, we hear this argument 99% of the time from men. Men who don't even have to face this decision. Never in their lifetime will they have to face carrying an unplanned or high risk pregnancy. But yet many make sure their opposing voice is well heard.

No woman wakes up and says, "It's such a nice day, I think I'll go have an abortion today." But to hear the arguments on this issue, you would think that's how it's approached. I worked as a counselor for three years in a clinic and I can tell you it's a decision that is NOT taken lightly. It's NOT a decision that is forced, nor is it a decision that is ignored.

Abortion should always be a private matter between one's doctor, counselor (whether religious or not) and those they deem to share this very personal matter with. Not politicians.

This is such an old, tired subject. I guess they will never get it.

[LakeSamish706]

1. Very well said, and I am for freedom of choice... n/t

[marshall]

15. Men's only choice should be whether they want to accept financial responsibility for a child

They should have the one time right to "abort" their responsibility over a child, but they should not have the right to tell a woman what to do with her own body.

[DesertFlower]

2. i agree. as a woman

no man has the right to tell me what to do with my body including my husband.

flame away.

[Blue_Roses]

12. I know some men who are wonderful when it comes to having

a discussion about this, but they agree that it ultimately comes down to the woman's decision.

[HockeyMom]

14. I should not have to give my permission

for him to do what he wants with HIS body, as in, why does he need my permission for a vasectomy?

Way back when, I told the doctor that. We also told him we didn't need no waiting period, nor a lecture.

[DesertFlower]

17. i didn't know that a man needed permission. nt

[Double T]

3. The good ol' boys ALWAYS want to be in control of EVERYTHING.........

including the control of women's rights and decisions. Isn't it TIME for a WOMAN to be in charge? ABSOLUTELY!!!

[newmajority]

4. Does that mean you're nominating a woman to be Obama's surgeon general?

Who did you have in mind?

[boston bean]

5. Well Obama just about sold the whole argument by agreeing to call it partial birth abortion

he is really useless sometimes.

[Blue_Roses]

9. he was using their words...

I saw him speaking about this in another forum and he doesn't use the words, "partial birth abortion"

[QC]

27. It's OK when he does it. Get with the program. n/t

[nichomachus]

31. Get a life n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

6. If men had to give birth, abortion would be a sacrament..nt

[mcctatas]

7. I think the ones who scream the loudest about it...

(politicians that is) really don't give two shits. They are appealing to thier base (and thier base is base).

[IsItJustMe]

19. I am also very skeptical about politicians when it comes to this issue. I don't believe GWB gives a

rats ass about stem cell research, but man, when he talks about it, he can sure get the crazies to come out and vote for him. Sad.

[mcctatas]

21. Aside from rushing home from Crawford for the Terry Schiavo

debacle, perhaps one of the most puke inducing moments of his presidency was his press conference surrounded by "Snowflake Babies". Plus, on the stem cell thing, if they really, truly believed that life begins at conception, they would work to outlaw IVF as a huge portion of those embryos are discarded because the parents do not need them or because the procedure is ineffective. Of course, that would go over like a lead balloon, so I can sit here with MS and he can block a possible path to more successful treatment or a cure....
Friggin arsewipe! :grr:

[IsItJustMe]

22. I know some right wing christians and they have told me how important it is to not use stem cells

from embryos and yet I know a couple of these women have used IVF to conceive. their hypocrisy is absurd.

I have also talked with them about how they see abortion as horrible blight on humanity and yet many of them are for this damn war in Iraq, that has cost over a million lives, and most them are also for the death penalty.

I have quit discussing suck issues with these folks because there is no logical way to reason with them.

[Cleita]

8. Men should never have a say about what goes into a woman's

body or comes out of it, nor should anyone else. I believe men should have the same ownership of their bodies as well. Sure a husband and wife may want to consult with each other and doctors and spiritual advisors as well to come to an agreement but the final decision should rest with the person whose body is in question. I say this about birth control, abortions, vasectomies and other sterilization or fertility decisions. If your partner is not on the same page as you regarding reproduction, then maybe you need to find another partner who is.

[Blue_Roses]

10. men do. Try telling a man to go get a vasectomy and watch

how fast he changes the subject. Not all men of course, but some that I've had this conversation with say in no uncertain terms that no doctor will cut their "pride-n-joy" off:eyes:

Some are much more educated on this--thank goodness.

[Cleita]

11. I don't think they should if they don't want to.

A woman whose done with having children can get sterilized instead if it's she who doesn't want any more pregnancies. Maybe her husband isn't ready yet. Maybe he's thinking if something happens to her he might want to start a family with a new wife. No one should make those reproductive choices for their partner. On the other hand a woman with X number of children may not want any new children with a new husband. I've seen it happen where both parties of a new marriage have had children and don't want anymore even with a new partner. There are other solutions and compromises but no one should be forced into a reproductive choice on their own bodies that they aren't happy with.

[Blue_Roses]

13. Cleita-I agree.

I'm not saying they should. But it's a fact, that it's easier for a man to have a vasectomy than a woman to have her tubes tied. That's a personal choice for those in their own relationship.

[ekwhite]

35. Also, don't forget a vasectomy is reversible

A hysterectomy is not. It is major surgery that should not be used for birth control. A vasectomy can be done in a doctor's office.

[ekwhite]

34. A lot of men get nervous with surgery down there

Even if it is a quick snip with scissors and a couple of clamps. Nothing will turn a middle-aged man into a 5 year old faster. :rofl:

[aasleka]

16. It is ultimately the woman's decision, although

Shouldn't men then have the option to not pay for child support if they do not wish it? If the woman can decide whether a child is a burden she can bear or not then the men should be able to have some sort of input on whether a child is something they can suport. After all it is the womans choice of whether to bring the child to term, if she seeks no input from the father then he should have an option to not support the child.

[Blue_Roses]

18. I can definitely understand your point to this..

and I think you have one.

[aasleka]

20. Yes in fact I do

My point is that while no requirement exists for informing the other partner but morally and ethically it should be a no brainer, while I can understand the feel good sloganeering of empowered women because really it is ultimately their judgement and there is a history of women's rights being less valued than their husbands or boyfriends or etc.. It does no good to stand up and assert your right in the decision making process all the while your partner who may be uninformed of the decision or facts is unable to make even an opinion in the case and yet he is to be subject to consequences as well.

History: I was a single parent for 6 years, I recieved a letter from an adoption agency that was requesting rights be signed away for a child I had no idea was developing. His mother had not held him nor named him having signed her rights away before birth. It took me five months to gain custody and actually see my child, I was the first male to petition the mother for paternity in Rhode Island, I went to every government agency seeking help and got nowhere, the only help to be found was for single mothers. The best answer I recieved was there is a law library on the third floor.
Well my son changed my life and I am now married and doing much better than in my single days and all it took was my perception to change, I wonder that if I had never known about my son that I would have missed so much with him and with life.

I understand it isn't my body but it takes two to get pregnant and the ethical thing to do wouyld be to take two to make a decision about the outcome, give everyone their rights of choice so to speak.

[Blue_Roses]

39. I'm glad you got your son

I think that is wonderful. It certainly isn't the "norm" in these cases though. I've seen men who couldn't drive their girlfriends to the abortion clinic fast enough and I've seen men who support their partners, through this difficult time, never wavering. I've seen the gamut.

It's one of those issues that should be handled personally since each person is different.

[sampsonblk]

52. Very similar to what happened to me. Got my son too. - nt

[roguevalley]

41. you make it, you pay for it. babies don't have a say so their fathers

should step up if the woman keeps it. however, if she doesn't, she has the last word imho. There is no option for a man not to support his child. anything less is punishing a baby. no baby should have to know his/her father didn't give a fuck.

[aasleka]

44. What you're saying is that the baby is made from two people

and that they are both responsible, that the baby belongs to both of them and BOTH must support it. Well, if the woman has a choice why shouldn't the male? She made it, shouldn't she pay for it? Meaning birth, and child support through adoption agency if she does not wish to keep it? My point is, it is hypocritical to not recognize how men are limited in choice and are treated as second class citizens when it comes to issues about family court and children. Want equality and equalization of gender roles?

[blogslut]

42. There was a case that made the papers a while back

The woman wanted a child but did not want to share the responsibility with the father. She found a friend to donate sperm and signed a contract, waiving him of all legal and financial responsibilities. The child was born and life went on normally until five years later. The mother decided to sue the father for child support.

The judge ruled in favor of the mother. The reason?

The mother had no legal right to deny the child the support of its father.

Make of that what you will.

[JTFrog]

48. No. He took the responsibility the minute he decided to put

a part of his body inside of her body and risk creating life. It's not something that you just accidentally trip into. And it should be understood that said created life was planted in the other body that the man does not own and cannot control. This is not a choice of the mother or child. This is a biological fact. Men know these facts BEFORE they jump off that bridge. Trying to justify shirking responsibility AFTER the fact is not only horrible sex education, but horrible morals and ethics.

I say this as a mother of three teenage boys. You better believe that I teach them responsibility and respect above all when it comes to sex. There are hundreds of outcomes possible with any given pregnancy. They understand crystal clear that sex comes along with the biggest responsibilities they will ever encounter in their life. PERIOD.

I also have an older daughter. I taught her the same thing about responsibility and COMMUNICATION. If you haven't had a talk about what you would do "if" then you have no business going any further. And it must be understood (especially by my daughter) that those "what if" conversations are not written in stone. Sometimes men and women will say whatever they think they need to say to get the sex they want. Just one more risk involved in the equation.

So hopefully I've made my point that the decision to have sex comes with the ultimate responsibilities. If you can't accept those responsibilities or feel that the partner of choice may not see eye to eye on those responsibilities, then you open yourself to that risk if you choose to engage in sex.

As much as we'd all love for sex to be carefree and practical, it's usually far more complicated in the real world.

[Bensthename]

23. And women should leave the toilet seat up for men.

We gave them a rib already to create them.. And they just keep asking for more.

Shheeesh.. Dang women..

[aasleka]

26. Every needs to shut all the lids, period.

[undeterred]

24. Most men don't give this a whole lot of thought

and their opinions don't run very deep. They say they are for choice to get our votes. But since it doesn't really affect them directly, few of them ever think about why is it so important. Its just a political hot potato for them.

[ej510]

25. I agree 100%!

This is a woman's choice and her choice only.

[aasleka]

32. Having a child affects everyone involved

It is this exact statement that drives me nuts, YES it is a womans choice but her decision effects not just her body but the future of a person (maybe) and the father as well. As in my case my sons mother did not want another child and she was out of my life so she gave him up, yet I fought for custody and it took five months and several lawyers to gain custody, Thanks RI for not putting Fathers on the birth certificate unless the woman is married.
Many whine about deadbeat fathers but when you take away their choices and knowledge you leave them with little recourse. Grow up, talk to your partner, give men a choice too.

[undeterred]

36. I do not believe that relationships between men and women

need to be complicated any more than they already are. I realize that there are women who are selfish and men who do care about children, but what this ultimately comes down to is that men want to make more laws to FORCE women to do what they want. Men who are incapable of developing and sustaining a trusting relationship with a woman want a third option, that of forcing a woman by law to do what they want. I had a candidate tell me recently that he thought "mens rights" kicked in at the moment of conception. Therefore, a woman totally loses control over her own body when she is pregnant. Well, I offered no further support to this candidate, because in my book that is called misogyny. There is no happy compromise. A woman has to have control over her own body.

Women aren't stupid- we can see through all the devices men use to dominate and control us, and we will fight you every step of the way. Do you think patronizing and insulting individual women on a messageboard is going to help your cause? No way, buddy. If you can't get a woman's trust from a woman, you are't going to get it by forcing her via the law. And that's what it all comes down to. Men still want women to be inflatable dolls.

[aasleka]

38. We don't need more laws

I would go as far to say the current pro life agenda is more interested in the long term goal of refusing birth control even.

I agree as I have said over and over that it is a womans choice but that woman should not be able to make men support a child, if they truly have the ultimate decision and responsibility then the right to choice women ought to stand up for mens right to choose to opt out as well. I gaurantee you that there are more men involved in supporting children they did not want than woman having abortions.

[crankychatter]

28. Knuckle-dragging sperm donors for Jesus, Theocracy and the Second Ammendment

you get MY vote

[crankychatter]

29. they'll probably move this but I'm K/Ring anyhow

yup

[ekwhite]

30. I agree with you

Government should keep the hell out of the decision. It is amazing to me that the same right-wingers who always want to get the government off their backs have no problem with interfering with a decision as personal and difficult as terminating a late-term pregnancy.

[aasleka]

33. i agree also, it is personal nothing to do with government

[Skittles]

37. most men really do know that - they do

it's the vocal whackjobs that get all the attention

[sampsonblk]

40. Friend, I think this argument is the dumbest of all pro-choice arguments

Every single day we all make political decisions that affect others.

In this case, there is a man involved in every single natural pregnancy. For the life of me, I can't understand why some can't figure out why a man has a right to feel strongly about this subject.

[GoldieAZ49]

43. I agree,

preferably the man and woman discuss pregnancy prior to sex, but to exclude men from the conversation puts all responsibility just on the woman, again.

I have never known a woman to get pregnant all by herself.

[juajen]

53. That's simple. It's because most men just want the "problem"

to go away. Take a poll. I do not know a single male that wanted or wants a woman to get pregnant.

Even my own husband, the proud father of three wonderful, brilliant daughters, never wanted me to become pregnant. He had possession problems, as most men do. Women's bodies "BELONG" to them. They do not want to share until made to.

Of course, after the fact, they are usually proud papas; but, they are rarely excited over the event in the beginning.

I have an ex son-in-law who swore my daughter got pregnant on purpose, even though he was the won who used an old condom, and did not believe in abortion, being Catholic. Glad he's an ex.

[adoraz]

45. life begins at conception according to some, thats why

I'm catholic, and we believe life begins at conception.

other religions have similar views.

I, personally don't have a strong view either way, so I'm not going to get into an argument about this.

but really, whats the point of this topic here? both Obama and Hillary are pro choice.

[barack the house]

46. Well if we play it right stick together and gain some corssovers they'll lose that wedge issue.

[graycem]

47. Equally frustrating

are Republicans who like to pretend NO Republican has ever gotten an abortion. They just hide it. The Republican party is a party of hypocrites.

[Nederland]

49. Sick and tired of hearing this

Half of the pro-life people in this country are women. Why some people want to paint this as a men-versus-women issue is beyond me. This issue is not divided on gender lines, the issue is some people believe that life begins at conception and some people that don't.

And for the record, I don't. I'm just tired of the issue being misconstrued.

[hokies4ever]

50. Obama on partial birth abortion

I saw an interview recently with Obama discussing partial birth abortion. I think it was the Fox News interview. Chris Wallace was trying to trap Obama with his Tom Coburn reference and label Obama as a radical leftist since he didn't vote against partial birth abortion. Obama made the keen observation that the purpose of so much legislation is to force votes along party lines instead of trying to get real work done for the American people. So true, so true.

Reminds me of that Bill McCain sponsored earlier this year. The one where he proposed a 1-year moratorium on earmarks. The bill didn't have a chance in hell at passing, yet he still sponsored it. Obviously trying to score political points against the Democrats. Well, Obama and Hillary both voted FOR the 1-year moratorium on earmarks. Looks like they one-upped old man McCain. What do you think those other Senators were thinking though? You have to wonder if they were thinking that their precious time was being wasted to try to score political points, yet nobody visibly spoke out about it. That's part of the reason I'm supporting Obama, because he understands that we must change the game in Washington, not just try to play it better if we want to help the American people.

[Dyllyn]

51. Defintion of a partial birth abortion below

What is a Partial-Birth Abortion?

* The definition of partial-birth abortion in H.R. 1833 is "an abortion in which the
person performing the abortion partially vaginally delivers a living fetus before killing
the fetus and completing the delivery." A number of physicians were involved in the
drafting of this language to ensure that it is medically accurate and does not encompass
any other form of abortion or legitimate medical procedure.

yes i agree it's a woman's choice

[Sparkly]

54. Where'd you get that?

"A number of physicians were involved in the drafting of this language to ensure that it is medically accurate and does not encompass any other form of abortion or legitimate medical procedure." What number? Does Frist count?

It DOES encompass other forms of abortion, and that's the whole point.

[Dyllyn]

57. Doesn't matter . (i'm against it)

I believe abortion is a woman's choice . I however am against it that's just me. I just think partial birth abortion maybe crossing the line too much

[mkultra]

55. anytime you have sex, you should plan to get pregnant.

If you accidentally do, the father should have a say in his child's life.

[Cassandra]

56. I'm for the 24 hour rule.

Men should be required, before having unprotected sex, to think about it for 24 hours (and perhaps be required to watch propaganda films). I think the need for abortions would drop considerably.