Did Wright say that black kids learn with the right side of their brain and white kids

[2rth2pwr]

with the left side, or was it the other way around?


I'm Hispanic which side do I learn from?

[GarbagemanLB]

1. Apparently you are missing half, if you didn't understand his speech.

[annie1]

5. i didn't watch it, can you explain within the context? thanks.

[2rth2pwr]

30. Why aren't people answering?

[mcctatas]

61. because it's a silly question?

:shrug:

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Political Heretic]

35. The best suggestion I can make is to watch the speech first, then come back

It is already (I think) up on youtube, or will be soon. It was a very long speech, and I think that anyone trying to paraphrase wrights words who hasn't opted to listen for themselves first would be doing a huge disservice.

I've watched the full thing, so go check it out, and the PM me or call me out in some way and I'll come back and talk about it.

EDIT -- oh. I didn't realize it was you. You've already show yourself to be a disingenuous partisan more times that I can count, so I'm not even going to bother.

[annie1]

71. lolol! is that a new label for people who don't support Obama? disingenuous partisans?

bizarre.

[jasmine621]

192. Big mistake for Wright to try to put himself and message "in context"

Over two thirds of the voting population does not think or understand "in context." If they did, they would have seen early on that Bill Clinton's remarks about the Jackson races of '84 and '88 were not racist or playing the race card. A lot of what he said in another campaign could have been said about Dukakis and even Al Gore.

[Forkboy]

195. Well maybe we should start encouraging people to do so instead of dumbing ourselves down for them.

Color me revolutionary.

[Texas Hill Country]

227. I will explain... he is racist.

[indimuse]

201. Well I understand! I know a hater!

He is a HATER! Now, Trying to White Wash his Obvious HATE for whites! STFU!!! Insulting people won't sway them...duh!

[Cali_Democrat]

2. If you didn't understand what he was saying then you obviously learn from neither side

[HardWorkingDem]

17. I didn't watch it all (caught the last few minutes)...

but am curious what he did say about this. Can you fill me in?

[hokies4ever]

51. Lesson to learn from the media this primary season

is to stop depending on everybody else to tell you what to believe. Watch the speech yourself and decide for yourself. Otherwise you will be easy to dupe by the media.

[HardWorkingDem]

65. Here's the thing...

I'm not asking the "media" to interpret what he said for me; I'm asking a member of the DU to do that. There is a difference.

[redstate_democrat]

103. Well, he said black kids, for the most part, are "right brain"

learners, meaning, the creative side of the brain. White kids, for the most part, are "left brain" learners, meaning, the more logical side of the brain.

Right brain learners learn through the subject.

Left brain learners learn through the object.

This is what teachers are taught while in college. It is relatively new (perhaps 20 years?) methodology. There are different learning styles: kinetic, musical, auditory, visual, etc. These "learning styles' correlate with either the right or left brain learners. There can be different learning styles under each type of learner: right or left brain.

Wright basically said that black kids learn differently because of the culture of the kid. He connects this with African culture and the tradition of the griot, oral storytellers who passed down history through spoken word. Also the tradition of music and dance in Africa to impart stories. He said, a black kid will be more likely to ask someone to TELL them a story, instead of wanting to READ a story. They will be more "energetic" as opposed to a left brain learner who is comfortable sitting alone in the quite reading. These black kids will be labeled ADHD or ADD or learning impaired because they learn differently because our educational system is built, for the most part, on "traditional" i.e. left brain learners, teaching methods. Paper, book, pencil, desk. The End. Because black children may have difficulty with this, they are deemed "different" and therefore "deficient" and are thus labeled as such. He talked about how blacks were said to have incorrect English back in the day, when that same label was not put on others who spoke in a different type of English. He named JFK, LBJ, and Ted Kennedy. He talked about how people from Boston might speak in a different dialect, but these people aren't considered to be speaking in incorrectly. But "ebonics" is considered deficient...and he implies that this is simply because it is spoken by blacks...and blacks are considered different, and therefore deficient.

[HardWorkingDem]

110. Really, Thank you...

Thank you for your reply and information.

[polmaven]

202. It really shouldn't have been

all that hard, should it?

I guess all of us "typical white, bitter, gun toting, bible thumping, Hilbots are just too ill informed to bother 'splainin stuff to.

[2rth2pwr]

116. Finally, thanks for the breakdown.

It's like pulling teeth to get an answer around here.

[JCMach1]

159. So we can conclude that Wright is not an education expert

:eyes:

Among other things...

[JoFerret]

183. Is there any evidence for that?

I need to check this out. Frankly it sounds like specious racist nonsense and the kind of empty theorizing used to explain under performance in black kids - something that may be better ascribed to other circumstances.(e.g.poverty and racism itself.)

However, more work to be done. It does sound akin - as a theory - to the "sun' people" and the "ice" people. It is true that schools are built around hierarchies of skills and learning styles. What I am not so sure of is whether those ways of thinking and learning styles break down along racial lines.

[Chalco]

196. It's based on brain based research.

That's all. Response #103 put it very well. Sure poverty, etc is a factor, but because the way the brain processes information is slightly different between European and African brains different approaches to teaching helps facilitate learning. There's no hidden agenda.

[JoFerret]

218. I wasn't suggesting a "hidden agenda"

and I have no interest in dumping on Rev. Wright. He is a minister not a cognitive scientist.

But I don't this this is good science.
I actually think we have had way too much of Rev. Wright. He has been vilified and treated unfairly without a doubt. He is not running for office and we should leave it at that. I realize there are people who want to keep this alive but I don't think that serves Obama at all. Just a personal view and not to be construed as an attack on Obama or wright.

[Chalco]

224. You said it sounded like "racist nonsense." That's why I used the term "hidden agenda." nt

[JoFerret]

229. That's what it does sound like

We have had plenty of race based theories on all kinds of things over the last couple of centuries. Most are total nonsense.

[Chalco]

249. It's called research. Someone tests the subject with tests

that differentiate what part of the brain works best at solving problems, the right or the left. Then, they tabulate the results and come up with a conclusion.

Myself, I'm equally good at everything. My left and right brains are equally well developed. My husband is dramatically better at left brained tasks--reading, talking, writing than right brained tasks. He can't solve a non-verbal problem to save his life. If there's ever an emergency I handle it. Since he has no non-verbal problem solving skills when faced with a problem his first response is to panic, then get frustrated, then call me. If something needs to be fixed I fix it or I slowly give him instructions about how to do whatever it is.

All brains are different and have different strengths and weaknesses. That's all.

Since this country was founded by Europeans who were mostly left brained, our schools were designed to facilitate that kind of individual, ie. mostly word based as opposed to picture based. As non-Europeans cultures have been assimilated we have been slow to accommodate them prefering to call them stupid rather than determine how to help them excel in a left brained culture.

[JoFerret]

250. I understand the so-called theory

I am just not sure the theory has any scientific basis.
It sounds very essentialist and therefore has potential to be misused.

We have to be VERY careful before engaging in this simple minded easy thinking. Very careful.
Race based biological theory is usually more than misguided.

[Chalco]

253. It's called neuropsychology.

[rucky]

208. Check out "What is it about me you can't teach?"

Which was a textbook I got in grad school for urban education. I gave away my copy, so I forgot the authors name - but it explains the differences well.

[JoFerret]

221. We need peer reviewed science

Not sociological explanation on this one.

There are many factors why poor children (of all races) under achieve and under perform.

[rucky]

222. Does it really matter why?

The differences are there. There are approaches that work.

Should we just pretend there isn't a difference until the rat-counters tell us there is?

[JoFerret]

223. It matters a great deal

It matters a great deal. but should not be a part of this political campaign.
Race based theories of science do not need to be back in fashion.

But let Wright have his view. He is a minister. We need to get our science from the data nd the research not opinions and preferences.
I hope his view of science sinks and that this controversy sinks. It helps no-one. it is a terrible distraction.

[LWolf]

255. There are some current ideas about "right brained/left brained" people.

I have two books on my professional shelf that delve into this topic:

Teaching For The Two-Sided Mind: A Guide To Right Brain/Left Brain Education by Linda Verlee Williams,

and Right-Brained Children in a Left-Brained World by Jeffrey Freed and Laurie Parsons.

Just two of many. Neither focuses on race as a determining factor of brain processing.

Both focus on the suggestion that many students identified with ADD/ADHD and other learning disabilities are right-brained learners, and require instruction and learning activities that they can access the way their brain processes to find success.

The first title briefly mentions SES and Title I students, noting that minority children and children from lower social classes are often considered "culturally deprived," and that the impression that their culture, their experience, is somehow not good enough sets them up to fail. That we should, instead, give them opportunities to learn in ways that meet them where they are and allow them to recognize and use their strengths.

This is the first that I've heard, or read, about a racial connection to brain process. I wouldn't count it, or discount it, without looking a lot further. If more black people seem to be right-brained than left, and I don't know if that is true, they certainly aren't the ONLY people.

[Aloha Spirit]

256. Hey there, I had a thread about this earlier today. Nobody is/can argue that brain development is

race-based. Cultural norms can and do shape brain development though.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5717196

And thanks for your post! I'll check out those titles.. Cheers!

[rucky]

205. As a former urban educator...

I can vouch for this. In fact, there's a separate specialty at many grad schools for urban education, because it is different.

You should also check out the works of Howard Gardner, who has identified 8 streams/types of "intelligence". Once you break it down that way, you can see how badly the system is missing the boat on what is possible in education.

[JoFerret]

234. I am very familiar with the work of Howard Gardner

and multiple intelligences.

Is the suggestion that Gardner believes they are race based?
Where does he suggest this?

[chimpymustgo]

209. That is fucking ridiculous. This man needs to take his pseudo-religious/psychological BULLSHIT and

stuff it.

[livingmadness]

109. Or perhaps from the back-side? N/T

[JoFerret]

252. I understand what he was saying

But it is still pseudo science.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peoli]

6. wow, that is a keeper.

[JeffR]

4. You don't seem to learn much one way or the other.

That has nothing to do with your ethnicity. Probably you're just willfully obtuse. Don't feel bad, though. Most of the willfully obtuse people I know are white. Does that make you feel better, snookums?

[ej510]

7. The ignorance makes you wanna

Holla!!!!!!!!!!

[oasis]

8. Wright's on a PR campaign blitz in an effort to salvage his reputation. He

should wait until the general election is over but apparently his ego is twice the size of Obama's.

[bigbrother05]

11. Yes, of course, wait until it won't matter to tell the truth

No sense in forcing the MSM to report on the reality of Rev. Wright's ministry, that will just confuse folks and make it harder for Obama.

The more the public sees the long-form version of Rev. Wright, the more foolish his detractors and their media enablers look.

[DebJ]

28. Yep, but only to those with a brain and a heart.

[oasis]

40. The less of Wrightgate on America's TV, the better for Obama. (eom)

[JoFerret]

186. I think you are right

Wright was unfairly treated. His views are not exceptional or unAmerican or seditious. Some of them a bit whacky perhaps but then he is a minister. He has had an unfortunate close connection with a presidential candidate. What he has to say, and what he has said, is just fine for a pastor. It creates controversy for a candidate.

Obama is better off with this being long gone. Harmless though it is. Unfair though that is.

[PurityOfEssence]

54. That speech, in its entirety, will not help him or Obama

He says many cosmopolitan and honorable things, but he says them with a hammering, bombastic DEMAND that you agree with the undeniable TRUTH. The emphatic and thunderous delivery is all fun for those looking for a cathartic experience, but if he was intending to appeal to reason, it was the wrong tack for anyone but those who like their thought lathered up with righteous aplomb.

For those of us with little taste for fire OR brimstone, being TOLD how things are in the repetitive threes that one uses on simpletons and serfs causes a full-body cringe; at least he didn't use the cutesy rhyming schtick, too.

Let's just put aside the cocksure supernatural godcertainty for a second and just feel the anger and puffery of the delivery: it's demeaning. He's not speaking to us as equals and presenting his case in a respectful way, he's DARING us to differ. Yes, he's including us as those who presumably agree with us, but by doing so he's including us in some special coterie while pointing out how wrong everyone else is.

It was bad theatre. This is one of the reasons fundamentalist fulminating rubs me the wrong way in such a big way: I don't hate myself enough that I need to atone by tolerating the anger and I don't need or want to belong with such an aching hunger that I crave being part of the roiling audience.

If you didn't understand English, you'd ask (in some other tongue) "why is this guy so angry and why is he talking to us like we're stupid, disobedient children".

I suppose these cadences are comforting to those who come from a fundamentalist background, but how many of the target voters do?

[DebJ]

57. Good grief I am anything but a fundie . . . . but I agree with what

Rev Wright says. I'm white, and I'm old, and I agree, and don't see how anyone would not. . . anyone with an education in education and history.

[IsItJustMe]

78. I think you over react and over think. To me, it was a very simple message. I didn't care for his

delievery, but the message was honest and good. His message: We come from different cultures. Just because we are different, it does not make us inferior or superior to one another, just plain old different.

[PurityOfEssence]

101. Probably so, but so do many others.

Think of popular music. Think how many people listen to the moment and the tune and the performances and never even really think about the lyrics. MANY people think like that, and many people react like that.

What is the net result of this speech? The summation will be a quick value judgment and a couple of clips. By sheer probability, those clips will probably be loud, emphatic and bossy. That's not gonna help.

Even the asides were demeaning; when he quoted Bush's speechwriter's line about the "haves and the have mores" he tossed off a little dismissal to anyone who thinks that Bush himself came up with the line, with the obvious assumption that many out there were thinking that he did. It's the rhetorical equivalent to insulting a student in class.

From sheer ambient feeling, it was self-righteous pontificating about being one of the few who really understands how things really work and it was angry and combative.

Not good.

[bigbrother05]

94. You clap on the first and third beat don't you?

Just as there are different ways to learn, there are different ways to teach, different ways to preach. Rev. Wright was speaking (as an invited guest) to the NAACP and his style was geared to his audience. Would they have responded to a measured, subdued presentation? Of course they would, but this is a group that appreciates and often enjoys such a delivery. When Rev. Wright speaks to you annual meeting, I'm sure his delivery will be geared to provide the optimal learning experience for the majority of those attending. As was clear from his speech this evening, he can connect with either side of your brain and sing from any hymnal.

[anonymous171]

96. Different does not mean deficient

[redstate_democrat]

108. What you consider "bombastic" may not be to someone else.

What is different does not mean deficient. This is exactly what he was saying. In comparing the musical styles of blacks and whites, he made this clear. In comparing the church traditions of black and white churches, he made this clear. Black preachers yell and scream. They dance. They joke. They act a fool at times. This is a tradition. Black people might look at a white church and think the calmness, quietness, and seemingly boring nature of it to be odd. The Bible says enter into thy house with praise. It is supposed to be a happy time, an upliftment. People express happiness, upliftment, and joy in different ways. A people who share a common culture understand this. They understand the yelling and screaming because it is apart of their culture. Someone not familiar with it will be put off. We are different, but not deficient to each other. That was the message. But instead of listening to the message, you are stuck on the method of delivery of the message...a message which happened to explain WHY the delivery was given in such a manner.

[LooseWilly]

130. Thank you POE...

I was rubbed the wrong way by the generalizations about the right vs. left brain learning styles propounded by Rev Wright being ascribed to a racial bias. Reading some of the responses to your thread, I gather that some are interpreting it as a cultural bias... and while I still think of it as a lot of simplification and defensiveness... you, POE, have helped bring it all into focus for me.

Your reaction is precisely the POV that justifies Rev Wright's continued determination to make this argument.
And thank you, for making me feel like Mandrake, to your General whatever his name was... POEPOEPOEPOE...
You see... your argument that the "hammering bombastic DEMAND" of the delivery of his speech was a problem... simply justifies his calls to recognize that different does not mean deficient. And, the greatest irony of all is that, in your attempt to criticize him, all you did was justify him in the eyes of all of us who thought that the other side to his argument had long since given up the fight.
If anything, it sounds like you're trying to respond to him like he's a "stupid, disobedient child"... though, perhaps a label like ADD would better suit your tastes?... Perhaps you'd prefer it if he gave the speech in the voice of Al Gore, rather than the voice of a Black Minister? After all, fire & brimstone is not to your tastes.. so Everyone should now speak only in "Academic cadences"?....

[Aloha Spirit]

23. Oh man, I love it when people think black folks should wait their turn and shut up.

[oasis]

32. (1)What does waiting his turn have to do with it? (2) What does being black have to do with it?

:crazy:

[Hoof Hearted]

24. He doesn't want to lose that $10mil credit line gifted to him by his church.

Just like Mr. Wright said - he says what he has to say and Obama, the politician, says what HE has to say.

[oasis]

46. Looks like the "chickens came back home to roost" and left him a sizable nestegg.

:wow:

[goclark]

126. No ~ he is smart and did not allow the MSM to continue to define

him.

This after being nailed to the cross and BINGO!

Up he popped. It was brilliant and he is awesome.

He is the Comeback Pastor! :bounce:

[CakeGrrl]

9. You missed the point, and the findings were NOT Wright's if you listened to the source of the info

For just this reason, he was careful to point out a couple of other things that he knew the M$M would be happy to attribute to him. He's a step ahead of the fools who are looking to smear him by misinterpretation and willful ignorance of what he's saying.

[2rth2pwr]

27. OK, he didn't do the study. Did he bring the study up to refute it or to make a point

based on the findings?

[CakeGrrl]

105. He brought it up to make a point that

there was research that concluded, as ONE example, that learning methods between two cultures, in this case European and African, were different, hence the reason that a "one size fits all" teaching approach would put some students at a disadvantage. NOT because they are intellectually deficient, but because they are used to another way of learning.

[FlaGranny]

10. Well, I don't know if it will help

but I'm sure that not a full 100% of black people learn with the right side and a full 100% of white people learn with the left side. I'm sure there are a percentage who do the opposite. I don't know if the studies included Hispanics. You're not ridiculing scientific studies are you? Wouldn't be too surprising.

[2rth2pwr]

18. There is a study that says black brains are different than white brains and Wright

is using it?

[boppers]

25. Do you want serious, academic, answers, or not?

I can point you in some interesting directions if this is a serious inquiry.

[2rth2pwr]

29. Yes or no's would be helpful.

[DebJ]

36. yes or no instead of genuine understanding, hmmm

[2rth2pwr]

48. For the love of God, I still haven't recieved an answer to a simple question im my OP

white= left brain or right brain and vers vicsa black. I am not looking

for a masters degree in human genetics or sociology. Just regular everyday layman's answers would be

awesome.

[boppers]

89. See #69

It's a complex topic. Trying to reduce it to "yes" or "no" is an easy way of getting the wrong answer.

Here's a simple test, when you remember something super-intense, are you remembering:
Sounds/Words?
Pictures?
Sensations of touch?
The emotions you had at the time?

Different things stick out for different people, because different brains work in different ways. Reducing it down to "white people = images", "black people = words" can help to demonstrate a trend in the data, but by no means is it accurate to apply such a thing as a universal rule.

If you want it in layman's terms: "You may have to get a degree before you can accurately understand it".

[FlaGranny]

206. No, you don't need a degree to understand it.

:-) This degreeless person understands. It is a given. All living creatures have differences, no one living thing is the same as another.

[JoFerret]

251. Very dangerous stuff to oversimplify

And no one but a fool would try.
A degree does not do it. How about four and a peer review before even launching in.

[Hoof Hearted]

104. Please, just allow me to say - . . . LOL never had as much meaning to me as it does tonight!

You freakin' rock.

[anigbrowl]

58. There's simple, and then there's simplistic

It's not the sort of question that can be reduced to just 'yes or no' without providing a distorted picture. If you look down-thread, though, I did give you a comprehensive answer.

[Skittles]

67. DO YOU LOVE AMERICA OR DON'T YOU?

YES OR NO?

LOL - I agree. That black and white thinking (pardon the pun) is FREEPERISH - yes INDEED :o

[boppers]

69. There are hundreds of studies that say different people, of different genetic and ethnic makeups...

...perform differently under different kinds of testing. Some of the studies have shown clear ethnocentric bias, others have not. Some of the studies show a clear genetic bias, others have not.

The super-short answer is "Yes."

The short answer is "Yes, Wright has done his homework, and tried to reduce it down to something easily digestible".

Did you know Protestants score higher on IQ tests than Catholics... in Protestant countries?

Here's a starting point for a much longer answer, it's an absolutely huge field of work:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

Learning, intelligence, communication styles, the whole shebang is a messy interaction of genetics, culture, class, expectations, diet, etc. For the sake of expediency, Wright chose one example to highlight his point that 'difference is not deficient'. Yes, on the average, different genetic makeups show different results on different tests.

The point is not that the results are different.

The point is that such a difference doesn't mean that one group is better than the other.

To answer your OP, you didn't clarify where your 'Hispanic' comes from, so you likely (as a guess) have some European brain traits, African brain traits, and various Native American brain traits, since those three groups are the dominant ones in most Hispanics. (Before anybody bothers asking where Africa comes in, please read up on the Moors)

[JCMach1]

165. I don't believe he was talking about testing-- Cultural differences are one thing

Fundamental Genetic differences in brain function are quite another. If he is talking about the second, he is whacked!

And frankly, that falls right into racist arguments concerning intellect.

[2rth2pwr]

170. See- "The Bell Curve".

[JCMach1]

172. Precisely...

[boppers]

177. Thank you for embodying this.

You have, with your brilliance, stopped thousands of scholars.

Go you.

[cali]

178. Sorry, your post is way nutty.

As far as I'm aware there is NOTHING in scientific research that bears out your claim that different ethnic groups have inherently different brain structures Throughout your post you confuse cultural differences with genetic differences, nature with nurture. ugh.

[JoFerret]

185. Yes. I would be interested

.

[JoFerret]

187. Yes. A few links to peer reviewed scholarly articles

would be much appreciated.

[Tatiana]

33. This is about cognition, or learning styles, not brain size or capacity. n/t

[IsItJustMe]

88. exactly. Glad someone here understands.

[cali]

179. cognition and learning style cannot be seperated from

the innate functions of the brain. There is no evidence that those from differing ethnicities learn differently. It's culture we're talking about. And I don't think anyone has said anything about brain size which is completely irrelevant.

[IsItJustMe]

82. I think that was a metaphor. One culture using one set of cognitive skills, while another culture

using another set of skills to learn. Left brain and Right brain are used as metaphor es.

Just like the heart is associated with love.

[2rth2pwr]

90. hahaha, good one!

[Hoof Hearted]

12. He also said white teachers are scared of black kids because they can't stay behind their desks and

because they want to hang on them and ask for stories.

Can you fucking imagine for ONE FUCKING SECOND how these comments would have gone over if Hillary had said them?


ARE YOU LISTENING SUPER DELEGATES? HE. CAN'T. WIN.

Obama wasn't just married BY J. Wright, he's married himself to him as well.

[anonymous171]

16. Obama didn't say them either, so you're wrong.

[Tatiana]

19. Of course you've got the facts wrong.

He was referring to specific segment of white teachers and made the connection between subject and object based learners.

So, do you know any people of the Arabic religion?

[Hoof Hearted]

38. Let's go over this step by step Tatiana. First, I would like you to find me credible evidence

for Wrights theory that the color of a persons skin is somehow determinate of the methods by which they are ABLE to learn. You can't. You know why? Because it's racist, discredited, indefensible bullshit.

In addition, I had never EVER heard ANYONE refer to Arabic as a religion until J.W. started ranting about it tonight. He sounded like a moron.

[DebJ]

49. there are identified social /.cultural styles that are linked to the

skin colors that are predominant in those cultures. Call the education department of any good university and ask them
if they can give you info on it. From an education major.

[Hoof Hearted]

66. Did you not catch the part where I was addressing my post toTatiana?

But please, do re-read my post. Do you notice any words in caps or bold?


For myself, I reject Wrights racist view of humanity.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoof Hearted]

92. Frenchie! I was just thinking about how I need to clear the litterbox.

I love my Persians, but just like on DU, sometimes they do tend to stink up the place.

[Tatiana]

76. DebJ is absolutely correct.

This is Methods of Teaching 101 - Diverse Learning Styles.

Should we conclude that you subscribe to the Eurocentric one-size-fits-all education system, then?

BTW, differentiation is not racism. Understanding the correlation between culture and learning styles is not racism.

It's good, sound, pedagogical, established, well-researched teaching.

You illustrate, my friend, why education is so important and why a certain powerful segment of our society has a vested interest in keeping Americans dumbed-down and ignorant.

From a Biblical perspective -

Hsa 4:6 "My people are destroyed (perish) for lack of knowledge"

[Hoof Hearted]

97. Do YOU subscribe to J.Wrights view that black children can't stay behind their desks?

Do you subscribe to his view that black kids are not good at learning things from books?

[Tatiana]

121. As a parent of one of those kids (who has often been frustrated with the public education system)

I would say that there are definitely some African-American students who do not learn best from sitting behind a desk and reading 30-50 pages of textbook material. I was also one of those kids. Could I force myself to sit still and read the books for hours on end? Yeah. But that took years of developing self-discipline and focus.

Actually, about a year ago I had to have a conference with my daughter's teacher and the principal about my daughter not staying seated in her classroom. My advice: let her walk around. She'll sit back down eventually.

I really resented the implication that there was something "wrong" with my child because she wouldn't "stay behind her desk." She's a gifted student, high achieving, and tests years above her current grade level. But because she felt the need to get up and move around, the teacher somehow thought she had a "problem."

Well, you better believe I set her straight. And I'll set anyone else straight who feels like our children (be they latino, black white, purple or whatever), because they don't fit into the one-size-fits-all curriculum, have something wrong with them.

Fact of the matter was that my child was BORED.

I find it interesting that Dr. Wright spoke, yet again about things that are true (and I know they are true because I work in public education, I see the problems he described on a daily basis, and I deal with them in my own daughter's educational experience), yet here comes the chorus of people saying he's a racist. No. The man is educated. He is DESCRIBING what is going on in the real world, in the real lives of African-Americans and it seems like some non African-Americans WERE NOT AWARE OF THE PROBLEMS HE DESCRIBED.

Who's fault is that? It's not Wright's fault that there is a lack of understanding of the educational concerns students of color face and he shouldn't be blamed for having the temerity to articulate those VALID concerns.

[Hoof Hearted]

139. Newsflash, your little genius DOES have a problem.

Fact of the matter is, your child needs to learn how to interact with the wider world, boring or not, and God knows, sometimes it IS.

Those who hope to excuse their own extraordinary childrens difficulties by means of Mr. Wrights appeals to racism do their children no favor.

[Tatiana]

145. DING DING DING!!!!!!!!! We've got a PERFECT ILLUSTRATION of what we're dealing with here.

"your child needs to learn how to interact with the wider world"

Sitting behind a desk is not "interacting with the wider world." But your Eurocentric, missionary-style, arrogant perspective probably lets you believe that it is. Don't worry. It's not your fault. That's just what you learned.

No. My kid does not have a problem.

She's in a class where the new (better) teacher DIFFERENTIATES (you be sure to look that up, OK?), and guess what?

She stays seated.

Bless you, Hoof Hearted. I hope everyone reads this post and, specifically, our exchange. You illustrate exactly why our educational system fails so many minorities.

P.S. I hope you're not in education.

[mcctatas]

147. ....

:wow:
I'm speechless!

[Tatiana]

152. LMAO. I'm not! I'm gonna pull a little rodeo here:

139. Newsflash, your little genius DOES have a problem.
Fact of the matter is, your child needs to learn how to interact with the wider world, boring or not, and God knows, sometimes it IS.

Those who hope to excuse their own extraordinary childrens difficulties by means of Mr. Wrights appeals to racism do their children no favor.

Look at it, fellow Democrats.

This is the mentality and perspective that we have to confront and engage.

Proof that Dr. Wright is indeed RIGHT.

[Hoof Hearted]

153. explain then your alternate verson of reality as it pertains to your childs education and future

I'm abuzz with anticipation.

[mcctatas]

158. The only thing you are "abuzz" with is nastiness...

I am sure that in real life you are a decent person, but holy shit, snarky doesn't even begin to cover it...

[Tatiana]

160. "Alternate version of reality."

And who determines the "reality" of the educational system and the curriculum teachers follow, pray tell?

It is clear that facts and research don't matter to you because plenty have been presented in this thread. Your arrogance, combined with a serious lack of knowledge regarding this topic upon which you have developed such a strong opinion, is sadly common (Republican).

The disappointment is that you don't even realize it.

[Hoof Hearted]

164. Reality is what happens AFTER the educational system.

And you have no idea, no knowledge of any of us.

[Tatiana]

167. Who determines the "reality" of the educational system?

WHO?

[mcctatas]

155. I have to say I admire your maturity and restraint...

if some internet blowhard tried to diagnose my child on a POLITICAL message board, especially after making sooooo many uninformed comments about our education system, I would not have been able to be as gracious. I would like to apologize to you for the fact that ANYONE has the temerity to say such a thing about your or anyone elses child with so little to go on. Everything is a fucking argument with some of these people!

:yourock:

[Tatiana]

163. In my field, you need a health dose of patience combined with compassion and understanding.

We can argue till the pigs fly and cows come home. But if we aren't at least ATTEMPTING to engage, to educate, to elucidate, then we become part of the failure.

Now this poster has the information. He/she can decide to further study and revise their (INCORRECT) opinion or they can choose to remain ignorant.

Either way, I've done my part.

:toast:

[cali]

181. er, that's not a white thing or a black thing

because there are obviously also some white kids who have trouble staying behind a desk or plowing through text. Different children do learn differently. Culture and homelife is certainly a factor, as are many other things. I do sympathize with you re your daughter. My son was much the same way. Luckily, his school(s)were willing to work with us. In 7th grade his math teacher simply started him on HS Algebra 1, and other tinkering was done that benefited him.

[Tatiana]

204. I never said it was. I said it was cultural. Certain other supporters took it to a black/white

brain-size/capability thing.

It's a fact that African-American makes are disproportionately referred to special ed in this country. It is also a fact that African-Americans (and latinos) have an achivement gap as compared to white/Asian students.

Pointing this out does not make a racist. Nor does culturally-competent, project-based or inquiry-based instruction.

[Tatiana]

70. Step one: Think more in terms of CULTURE than RACE. (African vs. European)

Step two (Read this book): Black Children: Their Roots, Culture, and Learning Styles By Janice E. Hale-Benson, Janice E. Hale

American educators have largely failed to recognize the crucial significance of culture in the education of African-American children, contends Janic E. Hale in the revised edition of her groundbreaking work, "Black Children." As African-American children are acculturated at home and in the African-American community, they develop cognitive patterns and behaviors that may prove incompatible with the school environment. Cultural factors produce group differences that must be addressed in the educational process. Drawing on the fields of anthropology, sociology, history, and psychology, Hale explores the effects of African-American culture on a child's intellectual devlopment and suggests curricular reforms that would allow African-American children to develop their intelligence, pursue their strengths, and succeed in school and at work.

http://books.google.com/books?id=oXvZI9KbIeYC&dq=education+dr+hale&pg=PP1&ots=7ZsSp-AjBV&source=citation&sig=d0vDZgLVyeNb29cLjHa79oDEq3c&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?q=education+Dr.+Hale&hl=en&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=2&cad=bottom-3results

Step three (Read this book): Learning While Black

In Learning While Black Janice Hale argues that educators must look beyond the cliches of urban poverty and teacher training to explain the failures of public education with regard to black students. Why, Hale asks simply, are black students not being educated as well as white students? Hale goes beyond finger pointing to search for solutions. Closing the achievement gap of African American children, she writes, does not involve better teacher training or more parental involvement. The solution lies in the classroom, in the nature of the interaction between the teacher and the child. And the key, she argues, is the instructional vision and leadership provided by principals. To meet the needs of diverse learners, the school must become the heart and soul of a broad effort, the coordinator of tutoring and support services provided by churches, service clubs, fraternal organizations, parents, and concerned citizens. Calling for the creation of the "beloved community" envisioned by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Hale outlines strategies for redefining the school as the Family, and the broader community as the Village, in which each child is too precious to be left behind. "In this book, I am calling for the school to improve traditional instructional practices and create culturally salient instruction that connects African American children to academic achievement. The instruction should be so delightful that the children love coming to school and find learning to be fun and exciting."--Janice Hale

http://books.google.com/books?id=5dsjaCD-jE8C&dq=education+dr+hale&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0

Step four: Come to the conclusion that cultural factors influence learning style.

Early Childhood Today: What role does culture play in forming a child's learning style?

BOWMAN: An enormously important role. Much of how one learns is individual, it's in the genes, in the wiring, of the individual. But a great deal more comes from what one learns from one's family and one's community, and that is largely influenced by cultural issues. For instance, an observation has been made that in the African-American community, people are much more tolerant of gross-motor activity on the part of children than in some other communities. In the Chinese culture, for instance, there is much more emphasis on fine motor activity. Though not true of all African-American or Chinese children, if you look at the sweep of the cultural influence, you'll find that more African-Americans tend to be gross-motor oriented than Chinese kids. Certainly, how kids think about things is culturally affected as well.

http://content.scholastic.com/browse/article.jsp?id=3746237

God help your non-majority students if you are an educator.

[HardWorkingDem]

86. Can you elaborate a bit more on this...(I find it fascinating)..

Most likely I could go to the links you provided, but can you offer some examples of what things need to be changed? In the paragraphs you pasted there are some explanations, but their limited scope does not offer the things that could be done.

For example, in the middle one it just sort of explains that schools are lacking, but it does not show examples of how they could change.

And what is meant by "gross-motor" versus "fine-motor"...

Thanks in advance.

[Tatiana]

113. This is what education majors spend years studying.

I could never do it justice in one response. But first off:

Gross control means the ability to make large, general movements (such as waving an arm or lifting a leg). It requires proper coordination and function of muscle, bones, and nerves.

Fine motor control is the coordination of muscular, skeletal, and neurological functions to produce small, precise movements. An example of fine motor control is picking up a small item with index finger and thumb.

Another good book to read is The Mis-Education of the Negro by Carter G. Woodson. The latest version of the more than 70 year-old classic book has an introduction by Jawanza Kunjufu.

There is a good deal of research that indicates (and in my own experience in the public educational system) African-American students learn best by doing -- that is, learning the content area subject matter through actual application. Math can be learned through music (scales, notes, beats, etc.). Science through experimentation, writing through poetry (or "rap" for the hip-hop generation), history through dramas or plays, and so on.

Many of the students of color I have worked with will not sit and read forty pages of textbook material and grasp the concept. This connects with Wright's point of how we label the kids that won't just sit down at the desks and read quietly (oftentimes students of color, though not always in my experience) as ADD/ADHD. Then we want to medicate them with things like Ritalin. The problem is not the kid, it's the way we are teaching them, which is Eurocentric, missionary-style.

Recognition of our students' diverse learning styles is one of the reasons the Project Approach has gained such popularity in Early Childhood Education. The students learn through activity. This suits those who learn better through the investigation or "doing" of things. Another popular concept is inquiry-based learning.

[HardWorkingDem]

118. Thank you....

I was concerned this thread was going to get locked before you answered.

Thanks again

[Hoof Hearted]

98. We have to stop at your step one, because Wright framed it as

white European-American kids and white Europeans

vs.


black African-American kids and black Africans.





start over.

[Tatiana]

127. That is how YOU are framing it. In other words you deliberately "misunderstanding."

Eurocentric vs. Afrocentric. There is a cultural correlation.

Address the substance of my response, if you please.

[Hoof Hearted]

141. Those are the words that WRIIGHT USED. - HE -- framed it on the terms he picked..

damn.

[TheDoorbellRang]

39. LOL

The Arabic religion. That was another good one in his speech:rofl:

[sushi]

74. Arabic religion?

I've never heard of it, and I've lived in the Middle East.

[Hoof Hearted]

87. Neither has anyone else, but J. Wright is HOT on the trail of those who call Arabic a religion..

:wtf:

[MADem]

111. Of all the religions in the Arab world, and there ARE many, which one gets the title? NT

[Hoof Hearted]

119. I guess we'd have to ask Wright, he's the only one who's heard of Arabic being called a religion.

[MADem]

135. Well, I am torn between the Zoroastrians, the Coptic Christians, the Chaldeans, and

Ibadis...but then, the Arab Jews might get annoyed at not being permitted to compete for the top slot.

This Sunni-Shia thing is just so...I dunno...overdone! Time for some other bunch to play lead (forgive the expression) dawg!

Unless he was inartfully trying to reference the pre-Islamic polytheism that was common throughout the region in the areas where Judaism and Christianity hadn't reached, you know, the old idol worshipping...I don't know where he was going with that.

[Hoof Hearted]

149. Zoroastrianarianism. That's where it's at.

[JCMach1]

169. I actually had an Iranian student whose family was Zoroastrian

As you can imagine, it is very difficult for them in Iran these days.

[MADem]

236. Bahais as well. The Jews in Esfahan are taking a lot of shit lately, too. NT

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DebJ]

34. actually many teaching students were terrified of the students

they would be facing in the classrooms in teacher's ed, and were terrified solely because their skin was black. This was in my school
in guess where - Pennsylvania ! - and they did not hide their fear from other students. These future teachers had simply just never
been around any African Americans (and hardly any other races) at all. I was amazed, but I grew up thank goodness in Maryland where
people are people not categories (and all but white is somehow subhuman or other).

Seriously, the students were scared of black skin. What a tragedy.

[Hoof Hearted]

84. I honestly appreciate what you are saying but do you not get the damage Wright did tonight

to the kids out there, in all the schools right now? He just said, black kids won't stay behind their desks because they are different.
Black kids don't do well learning from books because they are different.
Black kids want to hang on their teachers and hear stories because they are different.
Black kids have different brains because they are different.


He is simply indefensible. I think he's the WORST thing for liberalism in this country since the 30's. I think he has almost single-handedly obliterated Obama's chance - ever - of becoming POTUS.

[IsItJustMe]

93. You totally mangles everything that was said. You are not interested in the truth.

[Hoof Hearted]

115. If I totalllly mangles- your language, not mine - everything he said

Expalain YOURSELF.

Don't wait and hope for someone to do it for you. EXPLAIN YOURSELF.

[mcctatas]

107. Jesus...

he was talking about 40 friggin years ago when schools were first desegregated! Of course, if you're stuck on outraged, context doesn't freaking matter anymore!
Also, there is plenty of scholarly research that acknowledges different cultural learning styles, there are also scholarly papers that reject that hypothesis, but talking about it doesn't damage anything! (try : Learning While Black
Creating Educational Excellence for African American Children by Janice E. Hale)

If you reject different learning styles, how then do you explain the achievment gap? Poverty is only half of the answer. If the topic is not familiar to you, because it is so complex, perhaps you should engage your research skills before you engage your outrage button!

:wtf:

[Hoof Hearted]

117. Jesus indeed.

Where was his affirmation, his belief that black students are JUST AS CAPABLE as we live and breathe today of meeting and EXCEEDING in the classroom?


NO.

We got "right-brainedness" racist BULLSHIT.

[mcctatas]

124. Either I am being punked, or you are so enraptured by your own

narrow view of what he said that you cannot be rational....

What any sane person heard was that black students and white students have different learning styles (based on culture, not race which is an artificial construct), and that because the white European model of instruction has been dominant, we as a nation have failed our minority students, but I suppose that doesn't matter, you seem to be stuck on your personal meme that Rev. Wright thinks black students are stupid....

[2rth2pwr]

128. Whoa, time out. If race is an artificial construct..... when you say the nation

has failed minority students, a minority of "what" are you referring to?

Are you describing the majority as Euro-slash-Phallo-centric culturally, and the rest as minorities based on culture?

[mcctatas]

129. .....

:banghead:

If I have three M and M's and you have six, I have the minority portion...
when applied to culture, yes the "Euro-slash-Phallo-centric" is the MAJORITY culture which has shaped our educational system and teaching practices, and others belong to a disparate minority, if you do not see that, I cannot explain this any further...

[2rth2pwr]

134. Just clarification. How should we measure this?

I haven't seen questionnaires that include a cultural question.

[mcctatas]

137. Now you're just being silly....

You are obviously an intelligent person who understands the concept of culture and knows that people in America have different cultural backgrounds. I can't even remember where we started this back and forth...

[Hoof Hearted]

144. The former.

But please do tell me what all his discussion of the (supposed) physiology of black brains was about?

[mcctatas]

150. .....

Look up^ or if that is too much for you I'm sure your local library has "Learning While Black: Creating Educational Excellence for African American Children" by Janice E. Hale which is a good starting point...

there are plenty of responses that answer your question, but of course, that's not the point with you is it?

[Hoof Hearted]

154. of course, you skipped over the point. Expected.

[mcctatas]

156. ...

seriously? The whole thread is filled with answers to your question! :banghead:

[mcctatas]

166. What the hell are you on about?

Physiology of the black brain? I know you aren't that obtuse, even you know he was talking about cultural learning styles! But kudos for out hannitying hannity :wtf:

[2rth2pwr]

175. What was Wright describing when he said that people clap to music

differently, racial difference or cultural difference?

or

"Africans have a different meter, and Africans have a different tonality," he said. Europeans have seven tones, Africans have five. ?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/rev-wright-deli.html

[JoFerret]

188. It does sound as if he posited an ill-formed

theory to explain an educational tragedy.

[cali]

180. oh dear. you are a confused little hoofie. Wright is not Obama

and Obama is not an extension of Wright. And of course Obama can win. So can Hilly and McCain. As hilly's campaign tanks the frantic nature of her ardent supporters reaches a fever pitch.

[mcctatas]

13. Wow...

who would have thought I could get a Hannity preview on DU?

[anonymous171]

Aren't his words. Citing the work of another

[bhikkhu]

14. A valid question

but the answer would be that the study's findings cannot be generalized.

"Hispanic" can mean Spanish ancestry, which is European, or it can mean American Indian ancestry, which is more or less closely related to Asian, or it can mean any level of admixture between the two. It isn't important in the end as far as individual traits.

One of the most well-studied disproofs of racial characterizations extended to individuals is that the differences between individuals within a racial group will always - always - be greater than the sum of the differences between races. Put simply, you are much more an individual person than you are a race, and racial characterizations, however they might be founded, do no good at all when understanding or defining individuals.

[DebJ]

56. If you don't think it is important, go observe an inner city diverse

classroom. It is important when deciding upon which teaching styles are the most effective. There is a social cultural norm that makes a difference in the
effectiveness of a teacher's efforts - you need to use the manner in which the students learn best - social cultural norms do also have associated skin colors
because this is the way that human beings have idiotically socially constructed our world over the centuries.

[bhikkhu]

91. I agree with you

but it is a very fine or fuzzy line to draw - what is more significant: individual characteristics or racial/cultural identity. That there are no general solutions (and so racism has no factual basis - people are individuals first and foremost) was what I meant to say, and what a multitude of studies indicate.

On teaching I do understand - I studied for an education degree and taught at a local college briefly, eventually finding that I didn't have what was needed. For those that do, I have nothing but admiration.

[Ronnie]

112. ""Hispanic"...can mean American Indian ancestry."

????? That's a new one on me. The Hispanics in my family will be surprised to hear this.

[bhikkhu]

No offense at all intended

and no intention of appearing more intelligent than I am. But I take my definition from the common use when I lived in California, and particularly Los Angeles: any individual from Latin America (anyone from the Americas south of the Mexican border) was labeled Hispanic. In Los Angeles this included large numbers of Mayan Indians, large numbers of mestizos (mixed heritage), refugees from various South American countries of other ancestries, etc, generally termed by "Hispanic", at least by Angelinos. I don't recall any controversy or objection to the term "Hispanic" by any group, or any question of its applicability.

I am entirely open to a better education on the matter.

[MethuenProgressive]

214. My Penobscot grandparents are Hispanic??

Genetically, we're closer to Asia than Europe.

[bhikkhu]

248. Sorry for the poor use of the term...

As in another reply, my use of "Hispanic" is from my years in California and Los Angeles, where it means generally anyone from the Americas south of the Mexican border who self-identifies as such. Of course it is really a cultural term used to label very diverse groups and individuals. There are large Mayan communities in Los Angeles, for instance, who are referred to as "Hispanic" by the media and in casual conversation and by themselves when speaking in English to English speakers. There are also many of European ancestry who are by geography and cultural heritage bound to parts of the Americas south of the Mexican border, and consider themselves Hispanic.

Much as my ancestry is mixed but generally European, while I am by culture and self-identification an American (odd that when spoken in English we know it means "a citizen of the US", as if the rest of the Americas don't count!)

This is probably a bad clarification too...it is so much easier to just treat people as individuals and throw out all the dated and compromised labels.

[blogslut]

15. Why don't you watch the speech?

Hmmm?

http://www.hiphopmusic.com/2008/04/rev_wright_naacp_speech_video.html

[Moochy]

21. "Which side do I learn from"

Based solely on your judgment and posting history I'd say neither.

[FrenchieCat]

22. Here.....

This post answers your question.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5713002

[2rth2pwr]

26. 23 posts and no one will clarify if whites are right brained or left brained?

How about just answering this: Blacks are left brained- 1. True 2. False

[Tatiana]

37. This has to do with THINKING. Rephrase. n/t

[Hoof Hearted]

42. That's not what Wright said.

[Tatiana]

131. "COGNITION." n/t

[Hoof Hearted]

161. OBFUSCATION - SUBJIGATION - n/t

[JoFerret]

190. I think the answer is

Rev. Wright is not a cognitive scientist and he does not know what he is talking about on this topic.
However - he DOES know that many black children are not receiving the education they deserve. He has adopted a false theory to explain why.

That's what I think sounds to be the case. It does not come from a bad place but it is a bad theory.

[MADem]

237. That's probably closest to the truth. NT

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[2rth2pwr]

43. Hang on, where you are born affects the side of the brain you learn from?

Serious?

[anonymous171]

47. It's a cultural communication thing.

[JackORoses]

173. no, but your culture and genetic predispositions do

[DebJ]

44. Spanish and Asian cultures also promote a more social style of

learning and living, more community based versus 'me first' hubris American cowboy approaches.
If you don't believe this, go observe a classroom in a diverse inner city environment and
just see for yourself what the studies are talking about. Different strokes for different folks.
More than one way to skin a cat.

[HardWorkingDem]

77. Can you provide a brief explantion of "subject" vs "object" learning style...

Can you elaborate on this?

Thanks

[cali]

182. that's still a gross generalization

Children are individuals and have individual learning styles that are influenced to one degree or another by gender, culture, how much TV they watch or don't watch, nutrition, etc. I don't like simple, and much as I do like and admire Wright, I think it's important to keep those influences in mind.

[Political Heretic]

41. My suggestion would be do a post search on this user and then decide if you want to waste your time

:eyes:

[DerekJ]

45. Fuck

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[ProSense]

50. "I'm Hispanic which side do I learn from?"

The side that doesn't support Obama. Didn't you get Hillary's memo?

[ruby slippers]

125. I'm for Obama but that was a right brain response.....

:rofl:

[ClassWarrior]

52. He said teaching methods of European cultures play to the left, or logical, side of the brain...

...and that the teaching methods of African cultures play to the right, or creative, side of the brain.

NGU.

[anigbrowl]

53. You ask, DU answers

It's impossible to say for a given individual (not least since I don't even know your gender, which is a factor), but in general research suggests that Latino people are somewhat predisposed to right-brain thinking.

Interestingly, this left-right brain dichotomy (known as 'hemisity' is actually widespread even within societies - european society for example. You'll notice that the European composers Wright mentioned in his discussion of ethnomusicology were all Teutonic or Slavic. Obviously he could only go into limited detail in his speech, but a picky musicologist would probably have pointed out that Ravel, Puccini and other composers were European as well, but hailed from cultures within Europe where right-brain thinking has been found to be more prevelant.

Hemisity has extremely wide-ranging implications which are beyond the scope of a DU post, but are deeply interwoven into the social and cultural fabric of a population. Interestingly, the study of hemisity suggests that violent social conflict (ie war) most commonly tends to occur between populations which have opposing biases.

Here's a rather weighty but extremely interesting extract from a book on the subject by a medical researcher at the University of Hawii: http://www2.hawaii.edu/~bemorton/Polarity/12WarChapter.html

[boppers]

99. Yay, another one of "us" on this thread.

:hug:

[2rth2pwr]

114. Are you aware of any reliable physical way of measuring where the

brain's Executive system is located? Hemispherisity apparently had fallen out of favor for a time, but came

back as a working theory in the mid 1980's.

Hemispherisity sorting seems to be done, in the majority of cases, with simple questionnaires. Are there any reliable scanning techniques

now available?

Also with Familial Polarity suggesting that there is a genetic element involved, how strongly weighted is the cultural effect when the

thickness of the corpus callosum is considered?



Thanks.

[CreekDog]

55. this is such a fun primary

Obama supporters quote Clinton and criticize her for things she says and does.

Clinton supporters misquote Obama, make up stuff and quote associates of Obama (either out of context or misquotes).

I like your candidate more than I like you.

Heck, you aren't even helping her --that's the sad part. I mean I can't think of anybody your posts help, except for...:think:

[2rth2pwr]

59. All I did was ask a simple question, a little clarity would be helpful.

I'm having fun.

[libnnc]

64. watch the speech yourself.

I'm not doing your homework for you.

Cheaters do that.

[2rth2pwr]

68. I watched it, and can't remember which side was which. What's so difficult?

[libnnc]

72. you didn't watch it

[2rth2pwr]

80. ?? Cnn live on my computer. I googled before I posted looking for a transcript

could not find one, searched with Wright, speech, naacp, transcript- nothing. Searched different variations

of wright, speech, right brain, white, black, left etc..etc.. and got conflicting descriptions from yahoo boards and some poster at mydd.

Why is it that no one will touch this?

[BlooInBloo]

62. "I like your candidate more than I like you." - Yah, but it's a low bar to set.

[locker13]

60. actually

he said that african and europeans cultures are different so since hispanic is not a race the answer to your questions would be whether the hispanic person is of african or european decent

[2rth2pwr]

63. Ok, thanks for the answer. Is he asserting that the black kids in the United States

are raised in an African culture?

If he does then what he is saying could make sense.

[anigbrowl]

83. More or less; there may be genetic factors involved too

It's a complex subject. See my #53 for a (slightly) more involved explanation and some references.

[2rth2pwr]

95. Alright, I have read most of the posts here, and if it is not genetic and we want to improve our

schools, should we separate kids out for different instruction based on skin color, some kind of cultural testing to determine

the cultural "style" of the home, family tree research, IQ testing or simple double blind experimentation?

[Tatiana]

132. NO. You adapt your curriculum to account for the various learning styles of the students. n/t

[boppers]

133. Why separate?

Why not teach in a way that works for a given set of pupils, and teach them to cross-learn in other cultural styles?

[2rth2pwr]

136. How is teaching people to cross-learn culturally done?

Sounds cumbersome.

[boppers]

138. I had to learn it.

I'm a spatial guy. Poetry had no "space" for me, so I was weak on it. I had to learn to read poetry, then translate that into images, and then into spaces, just to understand why poets weren't just throwing words on paper.

I agree it is cumbersome.

However, I posit that teaching children to think in global spaces, and how to operate within those spaces, raises the capabilities of future generations.

Giving children an education is cumbersome, and yet we do it.

Giving them a better education seems like a no-brainer.

[JoFerret]

189. No. That can be done and should be done

We all need a higher level of cultural competence.

[Lady-Damai]

140. Skin color has nothing do with race or intelligence. Most American schools are separated by race.

I think more studies should be done. Not everyone is only one race.

[locker13]

146. no

he is saying that they are raised in an african american culture, and he is suggesting that african american culture is derived from african culture

[Lady-Damai]

75. Hispanic is not a race but a culture.

Hispanics come in all races. Didn't you know that?

[2rth2pwr]

85. Hey, thanks.

[ProSense]

100. "Hey, thanks"?

That's your response?

What race are you?

[2rth2pwr]

123. Human.

[Lady-Damai]

148. Well, everyone is human...

Didn't you want to know which side of the brain you learn from? Are you not curious anymore?

Quote from your first post.

I'm Hispanic which side do I learn from?

[mcctatas]

151. Well...

I'm not so sure about Dick Cheney being human, at least not anymore...

[2rth2pwr]

162. Historically I would have been been included in the Caucasoid or Europid

race as I have some Spanish lineage. Based on the Huxley essay written in 1870 see- http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/SM3/GeoDis.html

because I also have Mexican ancestors I may also be described as Mongoloid Class C. Being that I also have German and Native American

blood, it gets a bit more complicated. However based on appearance and the spelling and pronunciation of my last name, I refer to

myself as Hispanic as a description of ethnicity for simplicities sake. Futhermore, The Office of Management and Budget defines "Hispanic

or Latino" as "a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of

race. To make the issue more opaque, although most questionnaires are looking for self identifiers based on race, they include the

Hispanic ethnicity circle to fill in. Europoids/Europids are more generally recognized as "White" and as a classification for racial

measurement I would , based on the the common usage be "White". However, because I was raised culturally as a Mexican-American, I do

not describe myself as "White". Moreover, because I don't generally subscribe to the view that we have different brains based on our

birthplace, what language is used in the home, or whether the family eats black eyed peas or refried beans, I included my second

question in the OP as a humorous way of showing my disdain for the theory.



edited to fix link.

[Lady-Damai]

219. I don't think it's that complicated.

Genetic testing is the key to making it less complicated. The term Hispanic was originally used to separate white hispanics from the white population. I would compare it to when the term "one drop rule" began. White slave owners didn't want mulatto's claiming to be white or having power. This racist rule transformed America and South America.

Classification of race is part of scientific racism. These theories were made to support political and ideological positions of racial supremacy.

Rev. Wright didn't say we had different brains. He said we used it differently.

[2rth2pwr]

225. How early should we begin genetic testing? Would the time of birth be the most convienient?

[Lady-Damai]

244. Well, I'm not a doctor.....so it would be up to the parents.

Genetic testing has been very popular. Many ppl are very curious about their genetic roots and inherited diseases. I believe some parents would consider genetic testing if it could help their kids in school. I sucked at math all my life. I had countless of math tutors. It just didn't want to stick in my brain. So, if there was a way to stimulate the right side of my brain to understand math.... I would jump at the chance. :bounce:

[ProSense]

231. "Rev. Wright didn't say we had different brains." Your comprehension skills are lacking. n/t

[Lady-Damai]

241. Are you referring to me?

n/t

[ProSense]

230. The same race as Wright, huh? n/t

[2rth2pwr]

232. I am working under the assumption that he is human, yes.

[mcctatas]

120. And for that matter, race is an artificial construct...

there is NO SUCH THING AS RACE!

*snip*
From its inception, this modern concept of "race" was modeled after an ancient theorem of the Great Chain of Being, which posited natural categories on a hierarchy established by God or nature. Thus "race" was a mode of classification linked specifically to peoples in the colonial situation. It subsumed a growing ideology of inequality devised to rationalize European attitudes and treatment of the conquered and enslaved peoples. Proponents of slavery in particular during the 19th century used "race" to justify the retention of slavery. The ideology magnified the differences among Europeans, Africans, and Indians, established a rigid hierarchy of socially exclusive categories underscored and bolstered unequal rank and status differences, and provided the rationalization that the inequality was natural or God-given. The different physical traits of African-Americans and Indians became markers or symbols of their status differences.
*snip*



http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[libnnc]

102. see, this is what they're going to do now

they will parse, twist and dissect every syllable from now until Hillary is hauled into court for not paying her creditors.

They've got nothing but nonsense left in their quiver. And they know it. Pathetic, silly, small minded people.

[anonymous171]

106. At least it reset the "narrative"

[goclark]

122. He was speaking from the Black perspective during that

part of his speech because his main message was still that we should not put down anyone,that we are all valued.

[Hoof Hearted]

157. that's helpful.

[McCamy Taylor]

142. Except that we are all mixed race in the US so it is more a statistical probability.

[BlooInBloo]

143. If true, then bi-racial kids should either be geniuses or idiots.

[2rth2pwr]

168. Idiot Savants?

[JCMach1]

171. Can we at least dump the St. Wright meme?

Whatever you may think about him, he is NOT an expert on education, terrorism, and _________ (fill-in the blank).

[Forkboy]

174. I think you learn from the Right.

[2rth2pwr]

176. {applause}

[Jamastiene]

184. OMG,

:spray: That was a good one. :thumbsup:

[susankh4]

191. This kind of dichotomy is typically counterproductive....

it would be much better to argue for the rights of ALL learners... to learn as best they can. And for individual evaluation.

It's often said that women are more likely to be right brain learners... and men left. But, if we approach ALL women as artists and all men as scientists.... the effect is educational discrimination.

[Fyddlestyx]

193. From "Standardized Minds" by Sacks

I just read something about this view a few days ago in Standardized Minds by Peter Sacks.

His book is actually a criticism of the U.S. testing culture. In Chapter 9, however, Sacks talks about the impact of learning styles/brain symmetry on standardized test performance, at one point referencing a paper by Jerome Schiele that was published in 1991 in the Journal of Black Psychology. The paper was titled, "An Epistemological Perspective on Intelligence Assessment Among African American Children."

Here's a link to an abstract of Shiele's paper: http://jbp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/17/2/23

[oviedodem]

194. It is based on learning and linguistic studies that is used heavily in the

academia side of things. I can tell you that education scholars and those that study linguistics know exactly what studies and research he is pointing too.

[Maribelle]

197. Our right brain and our left brain are not part of our subconscious. We have control over both.

I thought that scientific racism was totally debunked?

We all lean from both sides. Our analytical capabilities, our love of music, nurturing our children, dancing, designing large computer systems all the while loving the love of our life - - we all swap back and forth. And our young children today seem to be learning from both sides at the very same time - - it's seems they might have gone up a new evolutionary step or two.

[scheming daemons]

198. Why am I surprised that a Clinton supporter didn't "get it"?

[Maribelle]

200. Didn't get what? Scientific racism?

Pathetic, truly.

[Fyddlestyx]

203. Unless you're an expert on this topic

its rather bold to dismiss the theory as "scientific racism."

[FlaGranny]

210. Not bold at all.

I have another word for it. I'll use a different word than the one I'm thinking though, so I'll call it "misinformed."

[Maribelle]

216. There are no 'experts' on this topic. It's all unsubstantiated hypothesis

And it has been disproven by everyday life, over and over again. It is all last century and will fade to oblivion shortly, the sooner the better.

[ImpeechBush]

228. Is Wright an expert on brain structure?

He certainly displayed no uncertainty in presenting his rather bizarre theories about blacks and whites having different brains.

But when someone questions Wright you say they have to be an expert?

[rodeodance]

211. OP was asking for clarification. Stop smearing his words.

[Snarkturian Clone]

199. There's a book on the subject I read once...

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Students-Middle-Class-Teachers/dp/0913543810

called Black Student, Middle Class Teacher by Jawanza Kunjufu.

It had some interesting points but Kunjufu has a bad habit of citing other books he's written as a reference, which isn't really a reference at all. He also makes whacky claims and has nothing to back them up. Still worth a read.

I work in an inner city school and I'll say that the number one difference is culture.

[Maribelle]

212. '... the number one difference is culture' 100% correct

I went to Venezuela before Chavez. Heavily armed military were scrutinizing each person disembarking from our plane. Our trip out to the resort on the Caribbean brought us past mountains literally dripping with abject poverty, and past large walled mansions where armed guards were patrolling on the walls, bars on the windows of most homes. The crime rate, we were told, was high; watch your valuables; don't tour around the city wearing lots of jewelry; don't dare wander off by yourself. Touring the capital wa quite and adventure, but it bothered me that the local people seemed extremely tense and unfriendly - not at all what I had expected.

One day we took a jeep ride along the coast. All morning we traveled east, stopping occasionally to enjoy the magnificent areas, swimming in a fresh-water natural jacuzzi, walking along deserted white-sandy beaches. Remote Venezuela is truly paradise. Around lunch time we arrived at a small village, spotless, well cared for. The first thing that amazed me as we entered the village was that all the doors and windows in each house were wide open. The people that greeted us were joyful, grown ups and children alike. Our lunch was a broiled King fish one of the villagers had just caught that morning, served with a fresh salad grown by the villagers and home made bread. I could continue with lots of stories about this little village and her beautiful people in the few short hours we spent there. They truly left a warm spot in my heart I will carry forever. But the point I am making is the dichotomy of the culture, how significantly it governs everyday living and enjoyment of life.

When I was in the capital, the population appeared to be mostly white and olive skinned, a lot perhaps some combination of spanish and indian. In the remote village they were all appearing to be of african descent.

[Swamp Rat]

207. Ninguno de los dos, y no te creo

[2rth2pwr]

233. No hablo español, mis padres pensados eso un acento me obstaculizaría en los Estados Unidos.

[Swamp Rat]

242. Que tonteria y una lástima para tí.

Hay más de 380 millones personas en las Americas que hablan el español. Lo hablan como entre 450 y 500 millones de personas en el mundo. Es muy útil.

[MethuenProgressive]

213. So Obama learned with both sides of his brain? Or no side of his brain?

I'm 1/4 white. Am I smarter or dumber than Obama, Pastor Wright?

[Maribelle]

215. According to Wright's rant, you might be a better bowler than Obama.

[MethuenProgressive]

217. At least I'm smart enough not to order a pint of Guiness in Latrobe, PA,

What part of Obama's brain told him to do that, Pastor Wright?

[rodeodance]

220. Prob. just reinforces the latte liberal label of his.

[ImpeechBush]

226. He said black kids crawl around on their desks while white

kids sit in their seats too.

It was like listening to some jerk from the KKK spouting off in bar somewhere. Blacks and Whites have different brains? Didn't this come up during The Bell Curve? Only that was about a test.

[msanthrope]

235. Within a week, Obama supporters will be accusing Wright

of accepting payments from either Rove or Clinton to make that speech.....having watched it, I'm appalled. Not just at the content...but at the utter naivete that 1) Wright would make such a public speech; and, 2) that posters on this board would think this a politically smart move....

Look, I 'get' what the Rev. Wright was saying. But he's a preacher, not a scientist. Generally, complex educational studies are best not glossed over and used for sound bites. This speech came across as ill-informed and ill-timed...

Sure, I understand that Wright is not Obama....but that's not the point. Wright and Obama are inextricably linked at this point...right or wrong.

[goclark]

238. I'm sure that there have been studies, Rev. Wright

was referencing two African American studies, he was speaking to the NAACP.

I was an administrator at a school that was 85% hispanic.

When I was assigned there, I asked how many Gifted Hispanic students they had identified, they told me 14.

I was furious!

I set up workshops for teachers and parents, I visited each classroom to see why there were so few when it was easy to see that there were many extremely bright students in the population.

I had speakers come in to talk with us and give the staff new strategies.

I was promoted the next year and had to leave but it gave me great pride that from 14, in one year we magically had 34 identified(on standardized tests) students.

Minority children sit in classrooms like "raisins in the sun" waiting for someone to recognize how talented they are ~

Does that happen to White students, of course it does. But for minorities believe me, it is not a level playing field.

[msanthrope]

239. Okay, so you say that "Rev. Wright

was referencing two African American studies, he was speaking to the NAACP."

What does that mean, really?

1) Was he unaware that there were cameras at the event?

2) Was he unaware of his linkage with Senator Obama?

3) Is the NAACP less deserving of reasoned, cogent debate than others???

4) Are his crazy-ass racial/educational theories somehow excuseable because they are delivered to a a roomful of predominately African-Americans???

[goclark]

240. Thanks for inspiring me to make annother donation to Obama

and to the NAACP today!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

243. he also compared AA kids as "apples" to EA kids as "rocks"...instead of oranges

a racist slip..European American(white kids aere dumb as "rocks"?!?

[Aloha Spirit]

245. Nope... comparing apples to rocks is commonly used to emphasize how different two things are, as in,

they're not even both fruit.

[2rth2pwr]

247. commonly? never heard it before.

[SeaLyons]

246. ...

:thumbsup:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

254. OBAMA'S EDUCATION EXPOSES THAT FALLACY