It's pretty bad when a gallon of gas costs more than a person on minimum wage

[rateyes]

makes in an hour. The article linked below says analysts are predicting gasoline to go as high as $10 a gallon by next year. That means that a person working 8 hours a day at minimum wage would have to work almost two days just to fill up an automobile with a 15 gallon gas tank ONE TIME.

Hey Republicans---if this is OK with you, go ahead and vote for McCain and the other Repukes. Check your wallets and see if there is more or less there than there was when idiot-boy took office, and if you're OK with the way the economy is going---keep voting Republican, but don't bitch and moan about gas and food prices, and the depression we're headed for---BECAUSE YOU ARE GETTING WHAT YOU DESERVE---pricks.

http://www.nysun.com/news/business/gas-price-may-soon-cost-sawbuck

[gasperc]

1. Bush's CAFE standards change predicted gas would be $2.25

in 2025!! Liars and bullshitters every last one of them!!!!

[Crazy Dave]

2. Food prices have gone up around 60% in two years

"What did you spend half of your paycheck on?", "Filled up the car with gas, bought a gallon of milk and a loaf of bread"

The other half that's left will go towards mandatory health insurance.

[Texas Hill Country]

5. why we need to get rid of ethanol....

[uponit7771]

28. ...or make it out of something other than corn!!

[shadowknows69]

51. Like hemp.

It's really the plant that could save our world.

[Maine-ah]

56. that's what I keep saying too.

Medicinal, clothing, fuel, and other additional perks....

[bahrbearian]

3. How far do you think a person on Minimum wage could

push my car in an hour? I'm planning a long trip an this might save me some money.

[rateyes]

6. I think I'll go into the

rickshaw business.

[bahrbearian]

10. Ok I'm game

I'm going down the coast this summer, you run the 1st leg, Seattle to San Fransico, I run ya back.

[here_is_to_hope]

27. But they will have the wind at their back in the summer...

and isnt it all down hill to SF?

The original bike tour guys figured out that the north wind blows hard down the Coast in the summer and any one riding north is screwn!

[bahrbearian]

36. Shsss don't tell rateyes

I rode the coast once to Santa Cruz,, came back at the 1st of November. It was tough coming home, jumped Amtrack in Portland to get home.

[hfojvt]

30. yeah I could go ten miles an hour with a rickshaw for about six hours

That would be $36 for 60 miles whereas with a car and gas at $10 a gallon it would be $40 if you got 15 mpg, but only one hour of your time instead of 6. And I am pretty sure you don't wanna be in a rickshaw when a thunderstorm hits.

[rateyes]

31. I'm in Georgia.

How the hell am I going to get to Seattle? :shrug: :D

[bahrbearian]

37. Hey if you want to start a business you have to go where the money is.

P.S. Maybe you could get someone to ride share your rickshaw with you.

[rateyes]

39. I'll make a deal with you...

You give me the ride from Seattle to San Francisco, and once there, I'll buy a Moped and ride back.

[quantass]

4. On the PLUS side it forces people to FINALLY look at Alternative Fuels seriously.

Electric Car baby!

[Crazy Dave]

9. And that's because conservation isn't an American term

We can't even learn the metric system.

[frickaline]

7. its coming ...

available for lease only atm I believe, still a huge step.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

[high density]

8. Erm, where is all of that hydrogen coming from?

Let me guess... oil.

[msallied]

11. That is true...

Hydrogen isn't something you can just pull out of thin air. It all comes down to oil, the backbone of human civilization.

[Life Long Dem]

35. Hydrogen

Hydrogen can be produced domestically from fossil fuels (such as coal), nuclear power, or renewable resources, such as hydropower. Fuel cell vehicles powered by pure hydrogen emit no harmful air pollutants.

[frickaline]

13. as I understand their plans ....

they plan to roll out hydrogen dispensing augmentation to gas stations

they also plan to sell a converter to take natural gas and convert it to hydrogen fuel for both car and home (for heat, electricity, etc)

I'm not sure how they make the hydrogen that they plan to sell at the stations, but honestly its a similar argument with electric cars, that fuel comes from coal mostly.

[gordianot]

21. Who will be left and able to pay for infrastructure?

All of the great plans and viable alternatives will take decades to realize.

[frickaline]

25. for natural gas? I think we already have that.

people make this argument a lot, but look how fast ethanol rolled out

[dysfunctional press]

33. ethanol uses the same delivery system as petroleum.

other alternatives don't.

[gordianot]

40. Ethanol uses large amounts of energy and will always be expensive.

Also there is competition with food/ethanol production that may already be showing up.

[dysfunctional press]

43. i don't support ethanol as fuel- i was just pointing out why infrastructure isn't an issue with it.

nt

[frickaline]

44. I'm saying that they mean to use that infrastructure for H as well.

Its a lot further along than you think ... I was amazed when I started reading about it myself.

from their FAQ: http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/frequently-asked-questions/

Q. How and where do I fill up the FCX Clarity?
A. A number of hydrogen refueling stations can be found in Southern California with others in development. Honda is also working to develop a Home Energy Station that may eventually supply energy to the home while filling up the car right inside the garage.

about the home energy station:
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/owning/home-energy-station/

Here's a picture of one such station I believe:

[dysfunctional press]

45. it's not the same at all- ethanol goes right in the same tanks, and out the same pumps.

hydrogen is NOT going to be the fuel of the future- it's smoke and mirrors by the oil companies. the reason the cars are "lease only" is that they would be too outrageously expensive for anyone to purchase and own.

[frickaline]

46. if you think H is going to be outragously expensive, I'd say you need to check the price of gas

If the price of gas keeps increasing at the rate its currently going, I think you'll start to find this alternative quite affordable.

And by infrastructure I meant the distribution channel, not the pumping device which is easily augmented.

[dysfunctional press]

47. if you haven't seen "who killed the electric car?" yet, you really should try-

here's what they pointed out about hydrogen fuel cells:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

The hydrogen fuel cell was presented by the film as an alternative that distracts attention from the real and immediate potential of electric vehicles to an unlikely future possibility embraced by automakers, oil companies and a pro-business administration in order to buy time and profits for the status quo. The film backs up the claim that hydrogen vehicles are a mere distraction by stating that "A fuel cell car powered by hydrogen made with electricity uses 3 to 4 times more energy than a car powered by batteries" and by interviewing the author of The Hype About Hydrogen, who lists 5 problems he sees with hydrogen vehicles (these are his paraphrased claims, along with exact quotations):

1. Current fuel cell cars cost an average of $1,000,000. This cost, in his words, "has gotta drop."
2. Current materials cannot store enough hydrogen in a reasonable space to "give you the range people want."
3. Hydrogen fuel is "wildly expensive." In his words "even hydrogen from dirty fossil fuels is two or three times more expensive than gasoline."
4. The need for an entire new fueling infrastructure. He claims "someone's gonna have to build at least ten or twenty thousand hydrogen fueling stations, before anybody is going to be interested."
5. Competing technologies will improve over time as well. "You have to hope and pray that the competitors in the marketplace don't get any better. Because right now the best car in the marketplace just got a lot better, the hybrid vehicle..."


as for the current price of gas- the difference between the cost to the consumer of buying/owning/maintaining a new fuel cell car over keeping their existing car would put a whole hell of a lot of gas in it.

[frickaline]

52. I see a lot of flaws with there assessment and frankly, I have a lot more faith in human ingenuity

...than they do.

This is a defeatist attitude as far as I can tell. They are looking at what we have in 2006 with no further development. And there are already changes not to mention counter-points to their 5 points since 2006.

1. Current fuel cell cars cost an average of $1,000,000. This cost, in his words, "has gotta drop."

First, how come I can lease one for $600/mo?
Second, I can remember a time in my life when computers that barely had higher calculator functions barely fit in a single room. They also cost a huge sum of money, seems that came down to a reasonable cost with mere research and investment. Was a PC considered an impossibility in 1970? Probably.

2. Current materials cannot store enough hydrogen in a reasonable space to "give you the range people want."

Wait until the new cellphones and notebooks powered by H start coming out. Watch as we further develop the storage technology while making profits.
also see #1

3. Hydrogen fuel is "wildly expensive." In his words "even hydrogen from dirty fossil fuels is two or three times more expensive than gasoline."

2 to 3 times? That's all? Guess what, since we're talking about the 2006 price of gas there, we're just about running even here.

4. The need for an entire new fueling infrastructure. He claims "someone's gonna have to build at least ten or twenty thousand hydrogen fueling stations, before anybody is going to be interested."

This will be a challenge but with government investment and consumer interest, it will happen without much problem. There is no technical challenge here, only a monetary one. How about the next country we want to bomb for oil, we put the money here instead. Seriously, if we divert tax revenue to infrastructure, this one is easy. It simply requires the commitment and follow through which will happen once the technology is proven.

5. Competing technologies will improve over time as well. "You have to hope and pray that the competitors in the marketplace don't get any better. Because right now the best car in the marketplace just got a lot better, the hybrid vehicle..."

A fuel cell will boast great reliability and a 80-90% efficiency. Its going to be extremely hard to compete with. If there were better alternatives, I think NASA might have switched over to a non-fuel cell shuttle by now.

Also this: "A fuel cell car powered by hydrogen made with electricity uses 3 to 4 times more energy than a car powered by batteries"

...simply isn't true, I don't know how they are getting that. The fuel cell has an efficiency of 80-90% so how they derive those numbers is anyone's guess.

"Because fuel cells have no moving parts and do not involve combustion, in ideal conditions they can achieve up to 99.9999% reliability."

"Solid-oxide fuel cells produce exothermic heat from the recombination of the oxygen and hydrogen. The ceramic can run as hot as 800 degrees Celsius. This heat can be captured and used to heat water in a micro combined heat and power (m-CHP) application. When the heat is captured, total efficiency can reach 80-90%. CHP units are being developed today for the European home market."

"Phosphoric-acid fuel cells (PAFC) comprise the largest segment of existing CHP products worldwide and can provide combined efficiencies close to 90%<17> (35-50% electric + remainder as thermal) Molten-carbonate fuel cells have also been installed in these applications, and solid-oxide fuel cell prototypes exist."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

I believe we can make it happen, we only need to try.

[dysfunctional press]

53. you can lease one for $600 because it's a loss-leader, and honda retains ownership.

you seem to like to do research- if you don't believe that the cars cost $1,000,000.00- why don't you find out how much they actually would cost if you were able to purchase one- at cost.

electric cars make infinitely more sense that hydrogen vehicles.

i'll refrain from further comment until you find out what the "actual cost" of one of those cars would be to purchase. :hi:

[frickaline]

54. you are only diverting from the real issue

You cannot purchase them yet, and I'm sure you know that. Thus the title of my original post 'its coming' instead of 'its here'. Development takes time, you can't expect a magic wand to appear when you need some new solution. You have to work for it an earn it.

Electric cars aren't the answer and never will be. They just haven't the efficiency, its a barrier of physics and not of undeveloped technology. That's the difference. Believe what you like, but time and investment will make a believer out of you in the end whether you see it coming or not!

[dysfunctional press]

55. no, you are completely avoiding the cost issue.

if you don't believe that they cost about $1million apiece to manufacture- how much do you think they actually cost to build?

are you one of the select few pre-approved people that they're going to be leasing one to? or do you think that just anyone will be able to walk into a honda dealership and drive one home?

btw- here's a company that is producing fully electric, high-performance cars that you can purchase and own...without having to be screened and pre-approved by honda. (and apparently, nobody told them about the physics barriers that would be in their way to do so...:crazy: )

http://www.teslamotors.com/

[frickaline]

58. No I'm saying the cost will change as development continues

Don't get me wrong, electric cars are working fine for an interim solution, but the long run will see them obsoleted by fuel cell technology because it is far superior.

The physics barrier is efficiency. But thanks for not reading.

Please explain to me why the space shuttle isn't running with an electric engine?

[GeorgeGist]

42. Dihydrogen monoxide.

[dysfunctional press]

32. there's a reason they are for lease ONLY- they are way too expensive to be economically feasible.

nt

[Life Long Dem]

34. I like these cars. The fcx-clarity.

They don't need to be plugged in to recharge. They do need a hydrogen refueling station. And they are talking about a home hydrogen refueling station. They go 270 miles without refueling. Limited use right now - in California - because of the lack of stations for refueling. And emissions are clean as they get. This is a Zero-Emission Vehicle (ZEV).

[Life Long Dem]

38. On second thought after reading the underlying cost of hydrogen fuel and

the needed infrastructure, it's not looking so good currently.

Hydrogen is simply a method to store and transmit energy. Various alternative energy transmission and storage scenarios may be more economic, in both near and far term. These include:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel

[msallied]

12. Ten dollars??

I predict we will have a revolution by then. There is no effing WAY we could allow that. This country will look like Vietnam, with everyone riding bicycles through the towns.

Ha... in retrospect, that might not actually be a bad idea. lol

[Crazy Dave]

16. Here? Not likely

A long time ago here and still the case in many other countries, the government fears the people. They know that the people will gather in masses and throw them out of office overnight. But here in America people prefer to elect one person who says they'll do all the fighting for them and that what everybody seems to want.

[msallied]

17. Ah yes...

Often I have viewed the definition of Democracy as a million people saying that one person is smarter than they are. While it does have its merits, there is something of a sickness in it as well. It is a system that allows a lot of people to be easily swindled. I am a bit of an anarchist, I have to admit. I want to stick it to the man, big time. We need a Boston Tea Party... although tossing barrels of oil into a harbor would be bad. lol

[NatBurner]

14. i'm looking for a deal on gently-used, pre-owned horses.

[gordianot]

22. That works out great.

You can eat the horses when you get hungry enough. I am leaning toward oxen easier to care for and they make better hamburger.

[Vinca]

15. The whole thing is pretty frightening. I've heard of local people

who have kept their heat off most of the winter (and I'm in New Hampshire). If gasoline goes to $10 a gallon, both heat and proper nutrition will be out of reach for the average family. We're turning into a third world country.

[msallied]

19. That's exactly what will happen. Third world country, indeed.

We'll look more and more like India, with giant mansions of the few perched high above the squalor of millions.

[SoonerPride]

59. France had that too. It didn't long for heads to roll.

Really.

[gordianot]

18. By $5.00 an extremely irate public, by $10.00 there will lynch mobs.

Among those in the $10.00 per gallon lynch mob will be many former stalwart Pukes looking for someone to blame. Pukes never accept blame themselves.

Even today at $3.50 it is hard to get a Puke to admit they voted for Bush/Cheney.

[rucky]

20. An excellent question to ask...

How many hours do you have to work, just to get to and from work? And how about those independent truckers, and delivery people? Commissioned salespeople and other "road warrior" jobs?

For some, it may not be worth it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. You know what's really bad?

That our government has done nothing to encourage mass transit infrastructure. Private automobiles are a hideously inefficient and wasteful mode of transport, and our continued reliance on them makes no sense. The United States consumes twenty million barrels of oil a day while producing five million. Global oil production very likely peaked in the summer of 2005; it certainly hasn't increased since then, and total production and consumption are very nearly equal; there's not much overhead for increasing output. World demand for oil has surged in the past decade with the economic expansion of India and China, helping drive up the cost per barrel, as oil is a commodity traded on an open market. Anyone who thinks that Americans have a god-given right to cheap gasoline, and to continue using 25% of the world's oil while constituting 5% of the world's population, is deluded; the reality of the situation is that there will have to be a drastic and fundamental change in the American way of life.

[Historic NY]

24. Sucks it costs more to get there to make the minimum wage......

but we keep making ethanol that costs 1.79 a gal. to produce vs .95 for gas.

[Life Long Dem]

26. WTF is going on?

Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world.

Everything you touch is handled by a truck first. This means everything will go up in cost.

In one ad against McSame, McSame is saying I think we are better off than we were. Is he crazy?

[gordianot]

41. Not crazy but early stages of dementia and late stages of blind ambition.

[uponit7771]

29. Series diesel technology is 50 yrs old

[totodeinhere]

48. I think I'm gonna get a horse.

[Historic NY]

50. The feed will cost you plenty.........corn is expensive.

but at least you can get something usefull out of the other end, unlike the BS the government gives us.

[nebula]

49. It;s even sadder

that Rethugs will continue to fight tooth and nail to prevent any increase in the minimum wage.

[demwing]

57. Mybe there's a silver lining here - Telecommuters

I've always thought we'll need a kick in the pants to move telecommuting into the mainstream. If we can't reduce oil prices, we'll have to reduce our oil consumption.