I just want to say one thing about Wright and Obama and twenty years

[cali]

not that I expect it to get much attention. It's not punchy or inflammatory enough.

Personal relationships are complex. I don't know about you, but I have at least one close personal relationship with someone who I disagree with profoundly on some very basic issues.

It's impossible to second guess why bonds spring up between people who are quite different and why those bonds are maintained. People are complicated; fondness has its own rules and those outside a relationship can never fully know that relationship.

I am not one of DU's great Wright admirers. I find some points of agreement with him, and that's about it. But I know I can't judge Obama's relationship with him anymore than I can judge Hillary's relationship with Bill- or with her good friend Mark Penn, for that matter.

Why did Obama go to Wright's church for twenty years? Perhaps because it was the church as much as Wright. And because he saw the good that Wright did and that was important to him. I don't know. I can't know. Neither can you.

I do know that Wright is getting this much attention, in part, because he's black. Hell, Huckabee was a minister for years. He was an actual candidate, and the press, by its own admission never reviewed what he said in his sermons.

Wright sabotaged Obama. I can't see it in any other way. He chose to go public at a truly inopportune moment and to be as provocative as possible. He could have waited a couple of weeks. There was no real urgency to his speaking out now. Obama reacted by "throwing Wright under the bus". Was it the right thing to do? I don't know. And I'm not talking about the right thing to do politically. E.M. Forester once said, "If I had to choose between betraying my friend or my county, I hope I'd have the courage to betray my country". Did Obama betray Wright? Did he do so for political expedience? I don't think so, but I'll never know. And neither will you.

Personal relationships are complex. And the ways of the heart are mysterious.

[Bensthename]

1. Wright threw Obama under the bus yesterday and Obama responded.

People are trying to make out like today was just a political move or something.

I agree with you.

[Cha]

33. That's more accurate...Wright tried

to throw Obama under the Train but Obamba defended himself, victoriously.

[Mooney]

2. The "20 years" criticism is disingenuous.

It's a focus-grouped faux argument that's designed to make Obama look dishonest. The people spewing it don't actually believe it themselves, and surely have people in their lives with whom they disagree profoundly, just like you. But they see an area of possible vulnerability for Obama, so they pretend it matters.

Don't fall for it. It's "Hillary Clinton Argument That's Full Of Shit" #465,936.

[paulk]

3. it's almost like Wright forced Obama into this

possibly Wright understood that their relationship was hurting Obama and decided to force Obama's hand.

Obama needed a "sister souljah" moment and Wright gave him one?

[tbyg52]

36. I've wondered that myself. In any case, I think it's for the best

although I'm still furious at the M$M that it ever was an issue.

[BOSSHOG]

4. This is not a statement about our 2008 primary battles

but my wife and I quit going to church about five years ago because we were sick and tired of hearing what was coming from the pulpit. We voted with our feet and our wallets. No doubt our experience and Senator Obama's aren't identicial but the Priest pissed me off so fucking bad I have no desire to ever go inside a church again. I am a better Catholic then those who get dressed up and preen for their neighbors in church on Sunday Morning while I stay home and watch ESPN. I don't have any desire to be told which group of Americans I should hate.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. Did the same thing you did, Boss, only about 25 years ago

after some anti-Semetic remarks were made. Never regretted the decision. But my brother is still active in the church, and I've gone to church functions when I visit him. Relationships are complex.

[BOSSHOG]

10. Every freaking week

this little smarmy Priest would rag on one group or another, Gays, Liberals, newspaper reporters, people who had themselves cremated. FUCK THAT! Never a peep about pedophiles though.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. What I love about Sufis

is that you find something good to say about everyone. And you dance instead of listening to boring sermons.

[cboy4]

28. Yup . . my parents sacrificed a lot in order to afford to send

me and my sister to Catholic schools.

And now, my sister and I feel the exact same way you do about church.

We just can't sit through the homily without fuming.

So I know exactly what you mean BOSSHOG.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. Exactly

I have a good friend who will be a Right to Lifer to the end. But then she was adopted and brought up by a couple who did walk their talk on that issue by adopting babies. I can understand her position on the subject, and can admire the fact that her parents did stand by their principles. But that doesn't mean that I think choice is bad--I am still 100% for choice. On this point, we agree to disagree.

[cali]

7. yep. I have a friend like that too, and on top of it she's very born again

and she believes all that crap about how everyone who isn't is going to hell. But she's actually very bright and very funny. We've had some hilarious conversations about who populates heaven and hell in her world, and who would be better company.

[gateley]

8. Excellent, Cali. nt

[Pirate Smile]

9. Did you see the MSNBC reporter talk about attending the church and her surprise at Wright yesterday?

"For what it's worth, MSNBC anchor Tamron Hall, who lived in Chicago for years and heard Wright preach at Trinity several times, said she was shocked by Wright's National Press Club performance yesterday, too. She says she suspects that lots of her and Obama's fellow parishioners had the same reaction. It'll be interesting to see if other Trinity members come forward with similar responses--and, in general, whether the church membership sides with Obama or Wright in this back-and-forth."

[cali]

13. Thanks for that very interesting bit. I hadn't heard it.

It certainly will be interesting to see if other parishioners speak out.

[speedoo]

23. Yes, saw that.

It was an important independent observation that supported Obama's position completely. And I was pleasantly surprised by MSNBC's coverage of the Obama presser... even Tweety made sense!

[Aloha Spirit]

24. That's exactly what I have been thinking about all afternoon.... Tamron Hall said that she's heard

from people in Chicago, people that had attended TUCC for years, that they, too, were shocked by some of Wright's statements and sermon clips.
Hall also said a lot of people have told her that if they had to choose between defending Obama and Wright, that obviously they would support Obama.

[northzax]

11. Obama denied Wright

earlier on. I suppose the reason that Wright sabotaged Obama was because he didn't think that Obama had shown enough loyalty to him when the whole thing first came out.

remember all the threads here the last three days about how brilliant Wright was? he set everyone up like bowling pins and then threw a grenade down the lane. I can't think, from everything I have heard about Wright, that this was either completely intentional or the man is going senile. Wright is a charismatic religious leader, one who is probably not used to being denied by any of his followers, so he struck back.

Do I think this represents Obama's views in any substantive way? nope. will it hurt him anyway? yup. (hey, this is politics, ain't no one ever said the game was fair)

[zerostar]

19. He is put on a pedestal by the congregation.

yes... I think you hit part of it right there.

To the OP, one thing is to have a friend, even a good one... another is to have a "spiritual adviser" who married you, gave you childs rearing advice and counseling.

I hope this shows people that he is not perfect and he lies just like the rest of them.

[SeaLyons]

14. Wright betrayed Obama...

and I think it's very sad. I support Hillary, but I think what Wright did to Obama was wrong.

[cali]

17. thanks, cricket. I think it's sad too.

[Mz Pip]

15. Well said

How many personal relationships that are much closer than Wright and Obama have ended when things came out that were a big surprise?

How many interviews have we witnessed following some fiasco where family, neighbors, friends come forward and say "I had no idea..." "He was never like this before." And those tend to be much more serious and egregious offenses than anything Wright has done or said over the past 20 years.

And in relationships people do tend to disregard the negative and focus on the positive. Perhaps the good the church did outweigh any concerns Obama may have had about Wright's rhetoric.

What is unfortunate is that I doubt people will really take the time to really think this through. In their minds Obama should have known. Should have doesn't mean he did or even could have. There is a difference.

[cali]

18. right back at you- excellent post

yeah, I agree that people won't look at it in this light. I just wanted to point it out.

[msmcghee]

16. Darned good post. n/t

[merbex]

20. Speaking as someone who sees a hard slog through to Nov, it is better NOW

for this to be dealt with than later.

Obviously many Obama supporters would have preferred this had not come up at all but as a Democrat who will vote for whomever gets the nomination, and I mean any Democrat, because the undeclared supers must take all of this into consideration, then I just am thankful this isn't the week before Halloween.

[cali]

21. I'm actually curiously uninterested in the political aspects and

riveted by the personal. Really, there's something terribly sad- at least to me- about this whole Obama/Wright drama.

[merbex]

26. The book about it can come later and it is riveting and interesting on a personal level

with just enough information that makes one wonder about the whole dynamic,but the focus on this race should be electing a Democrat to the White House

I'll let myself be "distracted" later with the details.

Barack Obama today was in full salvage mode because this IS a political problem and if it continues and impacts IND and NC then that brokered convention that I see as possible just rose as more likely - not inevitable - but more likely

[moondust]

22. "Do you remember what your pastor talked about last Sunday?"

I thought it was one of Wright's sharper moments at the National Press Club Q&A. I'd guess that an awful lot of regular churchgoers would honestly have to answer no, don't remember much if anything.

[Frustratedlady]

25. I agree. If we denounced and "divorced" every friend or relative who

said things we didn't agree with -- particularly during this crazy election process -- we wouldn't have any friends or relatives.

How many Catholics quit their church because of the sex scandals with young boys? That's far worse than what Wright was espousing. He is more of an irritation and showman than pastor.

How many people have gone to church and spaced out...acting like they were listening, but thinking of things they had to do as soon as you were home? Could they quote what the pastor said during the service? Could they quote him a year later? Come on.

I want to know if McCain believes everything Hagee says? What about Hillary's connection to some of the lowlife characters during Bill's stay in the Oval Office? Before Bill's stay in the Oval Office?

I'd say that Hillary and McCain have the dogs out on Obama so they don't turn on them. My message to them: Clean up your own house before you criticize Obama.

[Aloha Spirit]

27. Cali--I appreciate your post. This is the one piece of real drama from this campaign, it seems. I

certainly hope that this ends well, I expect it to, but I also know that cable news is even more enraptured by this than I am--MSNBC talking points just now:
Obama "taking a knife to a gun fight"
"Showdown" with "Pastor Disaster"

[cali]

29. all that makes me glad that I unplugged the cable years ago.

Pastor Disastor? Ugh.

[Aloha Spirit]

32. Yep, Pastor Disaster. I kid you not.

[butterfly77]

30. What gets me is that..

there seems to be a double standard for Obama but not for Hillary,McCain nor Bush...

[Aloha Spirit]

31. I've kind of decided it's because people see Obama and he kind of asks to be held to a higher

standard, just the way he is. He comes off as a kind, diligent, thoughtful, determined human being. I definitely hold him to a higher standard.

[Bucky]

34. Despite the double standard, yes, Wright sabotaged Obama.

I think Wright comes from generation of black leaders who were used to not mattering & thus had license to make their points in whatever way they thought could get their points heard. On the whole, he's probably a pretty decent man, but accountability is a hard thing to learn about when you don't encounter it until after your 15 minutes of fame starts.

Of course it wasn't just Obama being smeared--this was primarily a prolonged media attack on Wright himself. It's not Wright's fault that he presented such a soft fat target for hit pieces with his over the top rhetoric, but it was his responsibility, once the distortions started, to take cover and guard his reputation (and his parishioner's) more carefully.

Instead, he pranced in the spotlight, like a sober, educated version of Anna Nicole Smith, without regard for the consequences of his words. He brought this on himself. But most of the damage is still going on land on Obama. What a shitty way to sell his books.

[cali]

35. spot on.

really found his media hog act unappealing.