People seem to forget the large contingency of us who don't much like either Hillary OR Obama

[Cronus Protagonist]

Every time I criticise something Obama did or said or whatever, I'm a "hillbot". And if I say anything bad about Hillary, I'm an "Obambi".

Wake up and smell the coffee you partisan beeatches! There is a larger contingent than either of you who are not happy with either choice. Apparently you have overlooked noticing that.

Who do WE want, that is the real question of this election. WHO do WE want?
Are we STUCK with THESE TWO?

[Forkboy]

1. Yes, we're stuck with these two beacons on centrist ideology.

Both of which are safe as milk and wont rock any boats.

The only plus for me is that we'll have a woman or African American as president, which is admittedly cool, and long overdue for either group. As for their policies though....prepare to be underwhelmed.

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. I'm so underwhelmed already

I'm not even sure we can get there.

[Tesha]

38. I haven't been "whelmed" by a politician in a long, long time.

I could be whelmed by Gore, but he's apparently decided
he's no longer a politician.

Tesha

[Mezzo]

112. makes me miss John Edwards EVEN MORE

but this is supposed to be where the shit gets flung...and...it relieves stress.

:hi:

[mattclearing]

34. How else does one expect to win the Presidency?

Leftists have a pretty poor record of appealing to the mainstream electorate. It goes to show how effective Republicans have been at dictating the terms of the debate over the last thirty years.

[Enthusiast]

35. The media is under their control. nt

[mattclearing]

40. Yeah, it's pretty effective, isn't it? n/t

[Forkboy]

106. I know. It's a sad state of affairs.

By the time the country realizes we need something bolder it may be too late.

[reflection]

84. Best post today. n/t

[PurityOfEssence]

138. How's the term "ultramoderate" work for ya?

They really area two peas in a pod, being on both sides of most issues and ducking the hard calls as they cozy up to corporatists.

At least people KNOW she's a bit of a stinker, whereas he's presumed to be sweetness and light itself.

The sheer cultlike frenzy of the extremists in the Obama Camp leaves a bad taste in my mouth, though. Two days ago, Wright was Great Gallopin' Ghandi himself, but now that Simon Says he's out of line, well, he's just, well, you know... Look over there! Hillary's munching Monica and lynching for pure sport. Damn her! (Uh, well, perhaps that phrase'll be a bit avoided for awhile.)

Religion gives me the willies: it's an intellectual shortcut, and it's whipsawed savagely on a guy who thought he could use it to ride the wave to a casual glory. Bummer. Maybe people will think twice about dancing with the forces of self-absorbed certainty.

We're stuck with them now. It'll be a season of hard knocks and soft support.

[Zookeeper]

154. The best post in the best thread of the day.

Thank you, I feel better now. :)

Edited for a salute:

:patriot:

[Carrieyazel]

139. Neither Hillary nor Obama are "centrists" by most definitions

On domestic policy issues they're both establishment mainstream liberal Democrats. They won't rock any boats, but most liberal Democrats in office don't do that either.

[merwin]

2. I get called a Hillbot because I dare to point out a flaw in Obama, or point out something that

Hillary has done right.

It's amazing what DU has come to recently. However, this happens predictably every election cycle.

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. Well, to some extent, yes, but DU's never been so vehement before

It's as if we've been invaded.

[merwin]

7. You are right about that. I've not seen the behaviour at this level ever.

I could understand it if they were bashing GOP candidates, but fellow Democrats? Come on, there are better things to worry about, like winning the damn election.

(To those who say this IS about winning the damn election, don't even bother responding...)

[democracy1st]

17. Did you tell Hillary and Richard Mellon Scaife that

or Rush and his Operation Chaos

[Cronus Protagonist]

121. Yuo reveal more about your background thant you think, perhaps

:P

[Tesha]

39. I think it's that the DLC has finally really, really worn out its welcome.

I've noticed that the tone has shifted dramatically in
the past few days. Example: People used to make at least
a cursory effort to respond substantively to the DLC
bullshit. Now, they just post "Drop dead!"

And frankly, I think that sort of response was long-since
overdue. I wonder if that post is still "standing"?

Tesha

[cascadiance]

59. I do think the DLC is getting more brazen now. Whether that's due to arrogance or desperation...

is a debatable question.

But in the past, a campaign like Hillary's wouldn't find itself behind and taking very partisan personal shots at someone like Obama, or have their agenda appear more and more self-serving instead of differentiating herself from Obama on meaningful issues that the public could support.

Either that's arrogance that's being exposed to us more and more and being rejected in ways that they don't quite get just yet, or its them going to plan C and plan D when plan A and plan B have failed.

I really truly hope that that is one positive thing that happens as a result of this election, whether or not McCain wins or we can get someone like Obama in instead. That we yank down the DLC to size so that they either have to play honestly as the centrist element they claim to be (but which I would argue is more corporate than "centrist"), or take a hike back to the Republican party where they belong to appeal to their shrinking base of supporters of lobbyists and more lobbyists.

[QC]

51. "It's as if we've been invaded."

Hmmmmm.......

[Carni]

67. It's pathetic eom

[Zookeeper]

155. No kidding!

This is my first extended visit to DU for months. It should be renamed, "Obama Underground" and if you haven't signed a blood oath, prepare to be stoned to death.

[sushi]

6. You're right!

I haven't posted for a long time. When I got back a month or so ago, I was shocked how many pro-Obama posters there are. To them he's just perfect. He is a politician! Politicians make promises, many of which they find out later they can't keep.
He also reminds me of Daniel Craig. Both have big ears! I think he would make a great preacher, like his 'uncle,' Pastor Wright.

[eridani]

62. Not so much pro-Obama as pro dealing with the obvious fact--

--that he has out-organized progressives this time. There's very little difference between them on policy and both are centrist triangulators who believe in continuing US military hegemony over the world even though it's destroying us as a society, so I'm supporting Obama on the grounds of his campaign organization. He wants more people to be active participants in politics; she wants "activists" to just go away. He spends his money on organizers; she spends hers on shitstains like Mark Penn. He can manage money; she pisses it away. He occasionally and effectively breaks Rethug frames; she uses them all the time and seems deluded into thinking that this wouldn't come back to bite her in the general election.

[Cronus Protagonist]

136. Come on now,

Mark Penn's hardly a shit stain. He doesn't rise to that level. He's more like an infected blanket, (harking back to the early days of America.... )

[eridani]

137. Correction accepted. You can fertilize flowers with shit, after all n/t

[MADem]

13. I disagree. I've been here since the beginning, and I have never seen it like this.

This is by far the worst.

[Tyler Durden]

28. You and me both, chum.

If 2004 was creepy, 2008 is like the "Gunfight at the I'm-Not-OK Corral."

The worst part of all is that we used to say that DU wasn't the general population or the real world. Well that's true...Outside is much worse.

Tell you one thing: I'm getting my hidey-hole ready for next Summer, which I figure will go anywhere from just ugly to downright hazardous to your health in the big cities.

[Carni]

71. 04 was a lovefest compared to this

And quite frankly that was pretty disturbing at the time.

[Tyler Durden]

76. It was a "hanging offense" to call someone a "Deaniac," remember?

What happened this time? I think Skinner screwed the pooch by letting the level of animosity become so vile.

There are wonderful people I will never read again or hear from again because they will never be HERE again, and I have lost friends.

THAT is a true tragedy.

[Carni]

80. Yes! I do!

I tried very hard to keep my big mouth shut over the last few weeks but have pretty much lost it over the last few days (so I guess I am not without *sin*)

In this cycle it seems to be A-OK for posters to just come right out and attack people who don't agree with their candidate on a personal level...they are everything from morons, old and stupid, uneducated, poor, rednecked, racist...
and on and on and on.

Then to have the unmitigated gall to crow about not needing the votes of those they ridicule?

I have to wonder what in the name of God they think they are accomplishing by insulting voters openly and in an arrogant manner with their obnoxious tactics?

One thing I do know is it isn't going to garner votes for their guy if he should win the nom.

[MADem]

86. Yeah. I was one of those "D" words, even though my Senator was in the race!!

My whole family was a bunch of Deaniacs. The guy just made sense, and he spoke in short, plain sentences, not talking DOWN at people, like a regular guy. When he imploded with the faked-up scream, we did what intelligent Dems do, and followed the party over to Kerry. Like I say, he's my Senator, Kerry, but I could see him getting his skinny ass handed to him well before it happened. The GOP just love to play that Limo Lib card, and he was ripe for being played in that regard.

I agree that the vitrol has gotten to be too much here. I also think that the sock puppets (you know, the ones with five posts who know enough to hide their profiles so one can't get a clue about where they come from or how long they've been here, and who can use all of the board tricks, like bolding, indenting, putting pictures in, boxing text, coloring it, all the shit that took most people months to feel comfortable doing) are over the top, and they're here so that the partisans get more than three lousy posts in GD-P!

Hell, I oughta sell my three posts for a donor renewal! I'm not contributing to this place, even if I had the money to do it, which I don't right now (all our spare cash is going to help a terminally ill friend). It's just too mean, too shitty, and too insulting to Democrats. I try real hard not to insult the candidate who isn't my favorite, I use proper names and titles, or initials when referring to both, and I can't believe that insulting Democrats in that fashion is "OK" here.

A lot of nice people left. Wish I knew where they went, I'd go visit...

[Tyler Durden]

92. PM me if you're interested.

I have to say it depends on your preferences.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

135. There would be about 100 people left here if Skinner kicked the flamers out.

Just about everyone has participated in the crap.

[chimpymustgo]

45. HOWARD DEAN WILL BE THE NOMINEE!!!! (Primary '04)

[Art_from_Ark]

5. I'm still hoping for a brokered convention

and the man who was actually elected by the people to be President in 2001 gets another chance at it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

24. This Arkansan would also love to see that happen n/t

[jobycom]

8. It could be worse.

You could be Republican. Imagine having to choose between McCain and nothing else.

[Tesha]

41. If you're a Republican, especially of the old sort, McCain's actually a pretty good choice.

He's not so good a NeoCon, but if you're looking for
an old-styled Republican, maybe of the Barry Goldwater
ilk, McCain's actually a very good choice. His one real
disadvantage is his age; they'll need to finesse that
with a good Veep choice. (And if they chose the Veep
from among the orignial field, I'd bet on Huckabee,
but I'll bet they go outside of that field.)

Absent Gore (or maybe Edwards) somewhere in the race,
I'm pretty sure McCain wll beat either of our two
"cool kids".

Tesha

[dflprincess]

107. If you're an old style Republican Clinton or Obama probably seem like good choices to you

I think Nelson Rockefeller was more liberal than either one of them.

[Tesha]

110. I deliberately suggested Goldwater rather than Rockefeller...

...because McCain is definitely a war hawk, like
Goldwater rather than a New-England (or NY) styled
laissez-faire Republican like Rockefeller or Lowell
Weicker.

Obama fits well in the New Englad Republican mold.

But I believe that Clinton is far more comfortable
with the NeoCons ("Power for power's sake") than
with either stream of old-line Republicanism.

Tesha

[Hippo_Tron]

146. The Nelson Rockefellers of the world are now Democrats

As the GOP moved to the right, they were basically exiled from the party and became Democrats. On the other hand, many working class "Reagan Democrats" left the party and became Republicans.

That's one of the reasons that it's difficult to maintain a coalition for New Deal style economic populism. The New Deal coalition doesn't exist anymore.

As much as a dislike the DLC, their very existence is a reaction to the fact that we hold together a coalition increasingly more based on social issues than on economic issues. I do think that at some point we will have to again turn toward economic populism but I'm just not sure when that will be.

[cali]

9. Start where you are

work with what you have. I would have preferred others. Didn't happen. And how do you know there's a large contingency of people who want someone else? Sounds like you're extrapolating based on your personal feelings. I've seen no evidence to support that.

[splat]

10. Yes, the 1st black and 1st woman can't battle to stalemate and have a white man step in to 'fix' it

[thunder rising]

11. There is a third choice ... door, butt, out ... bye

[JANdad]

20. I see this how you got your post count so high so fast...

One liners in the subject line...adds a lot to the discussion

[Cronus Protagonist]

122. Haha you just don't know who you're dealing with, apparently

Often, when people show me the door, they're the ones who step through. I wonder why?

[travelingtypist]

12. I was a Deaniac in 2004.

I got my heart stomped on. Vowed that wouldn't happen this time.

Hell, I don't really believe we'll have an election this year. Dick
Cheney didn't go to Saudi Arabia and warn them what to do in the event
of a nuclear attack for the fun of it.

[democrattotheend]

105. I vowed the same thing after Dean. But I couldn't resist getting behind Obama.

I tried to stay on the sidelines after getting my heart broke in 2004, but after Iowa when I saw Obama speak I just could not stay on the sidelines anymore. Belittle inspiration all you want, but it's a powerful force and an important quality for a leader, and I really believe that Obama is something special.

[travelingtypist]

160. Oh, I agree.

Special enough that they're gonna do to him what they
did to Bobby in '68. There's no way the nutballs and
whack jobs are gonna let an "uppity black man" become
President of the United States.

Yeah, I have tinfoil hat for every day of the week.

[FrenchieCat]

14. What is it that we should do "for you" folks who don't like anybody, exactly?

What is it that you are looking for, and do you think that this person will be running this year?

It is easy to complain, but do you actually have a solution to your own problem, or are we supposed to come up with answers for you?

[Clark2008]

21. I don't think anyone's asking what you would do.

I think the OP (and I know this for my own opinion) is lamenting: "Why didn't a viable change agent run? What can we do next time to ensure that someone of character and real change runs."

:shrug:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

25. Be polite and don't make assumptions

I think the point of the OP was that when those of us who are lukewarm on Obama and Clinton post a comment, don't automatically assume that we are supporting one or the other of them. I was bashed a while back merely because I used "Clinton" rather than her first name--somehow that made me sexist and an ardent supporter of Obama. No, what I was doing was using both candidates' last names, as I personally felt uncomfortable using a first name for one and a last name for the other. Plus I can never remember how to spell her first name. But to hear some posters, you'd think I'd committed the crime of the century.

[Bobbieo]

31. What I am looking for is the guarantee that one of our 2 Dems will be the next president of the US

and I'm asking you to be sure you are not giving ammunition to McCain to enable him and the Repugs to defeat our candidate. Stop the infighting!!!

We need a Democratic president and Congress to get this country out of the mess that the Bush admin has put us in. Give us Democratic leadership!!!

[Stinky The Clown]

61. Your graciousness and magnanimity are surpassed only by your pleasant disposition and ......

.... sense of inclusiveness.

[Cronus Protagonist]

123. hahah, don't worry about her/him - they're on ignore already :P

[MrSlayer]

15. I've been whittled down to Obama but I like him.

I started out wanting Clark or Gore to run. And I went with Edwards because Kucinich was simply not viable. When it came down to the last two standing Obama was the clear choice. Hillary has always been my last choice.

[izzie]

16. They are not liberal enough for me as they speak.

I am not so much looking at what these two say but for their so called thinking.I think who ever is in Congress will start doing its job once more. I do not see either Clinton or McCain with an open mind on anything but I see Obama as a man of our times who will see a problem and look for ways to fix it, with us in mind, with out a shut mind like the others and Bush. That is the rare part of Obama that seems to get to me. I can not put this into words just why I get this feeling about this man. McCain and Clinton have a closeness of mind that I just feel the country can do with out right now. We see what shut minds have done for us just look at Bush or read your history books. It is rare to get some one with a freeness of mind that gets this high in Govt.

[Red Zelda]

18. Get lost

along with Kucinich, Edwards and the rest of the losers who got 10 votes.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

26. so you think that DU should only be for those who like Obama and Clinton?

Just curious. Because it will take the votes of people like me for the Democrats to win. Shutting us out will not help your cause.

[Red Zelda]

30. No, but they are who we have

... they got the votes, they got the support. Not Kucinich, Gore, Edwards or any of the others.
They're toast, like Dean was in 2004 without winning a single primary. They got NO SUPPORT. Get over it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

33. But the whole point of the OP

wasn't to laud the candidates you list, but rather to ask the supporters of Obama and Clinton not to automatically assume that we are in one camp or the other and to read our comments with some respect. Actually, I think it would be wise for the supporters to heed our comments and not trash them, because our goal in either praising or critiquing the campaigns is to make sure that the Democrats WIN in November. I like to think of us as representing more the general public in our reactions to what is done, and it is the general public that is to be won over. To merely ignore our concerns about the campaigns is folly, I believe.

[Cronus Protagonist]

125. THIS POST SHOULD BE THE OP ^---------^

haha, said better than I could. Good job!

:)

[Zookeeper]

156. I admire your restraint.

That made me want to put him over my knee and spank him. (And not in a fun way.)

Very well said, Ayeshahaqqiqa!

[Tesha]

44. Just so I'm clear on this, do you understand the concept that...

Just so I'm clear on this, do you understand the concept that
it is possible for the candidate most likely to win in the
General Election doesn't win the prmaries, right?

For example, let's assume that 45% of the people have Obama
as their first choice, 40% of the people have Clinton as
their first choice, and 15% of the people have Edwards as
their first choice. Clearly, Obama should be the GE candidate
right?

Wel, not necessarily. Because the data that you really needed
to know and which *IS NOT PRODUCED BY OUR CURRENT SYSTEM OF
PRIMARIES AND CAUCUSES* is how many people will "accept"
(approve of) each of the candidates. It is quite possible
that:

95% of the Democratic voters would have approved of Edwards
while only (say) 55% approve of Obama and 45% approve of
Clinton. In this scenario, Edwards would *CLEARLY* have
been the far better candidate for the General Election
even though he couldn't win a single primary or caucus.
It would be even better for us if we could collect valid
"approval" data from Republicans, but that truly accurate
data about that is unlikely to ever be available to us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting

(By the way, I believe the numbers I've cited above are
acually pretty realistic.)

Tesha

[dflprincess]

108. Because the media picked the candidates

at least some of us were able to think for ourselves.

[Tesha]

42. Wow! That helps! (NT)

[QueenOfCalifornia]

115. You are

quite a shit stirrer.

Who are the real losers?

The American people.

And people who put down me like Kucinich or Edwards.

:wtf:

[Cronus Protagonist]

124. Ah, such wit and wisdom

:sarcasm:

[Clark2008]

19. Amen...

What's worse is that I felt like I was stuck from the get-go. I never much cared for ANYONE running. No real change agent was ever in the running, save maybe Kucinich, who wouldn't be able to get elected dog catcher in the vast majority of districts (thanks to the media).

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

27. The media steered us away from any real choice, I think

I find it so very curious that all but these two (and Gravel) dropped out as quickly as they did, while Huckabee and Paul and even Romney stayed in the race much longer. I do believe corporate interests used the MSM to make sure we wouldn't have real choices. Just look at the air time afforded the other candidates, for heaven's sake!

Our one hope is the unraveling of trust in the MSM and the rise of alternative sources for news, like youtube. Kucinich used this quite effectively, and because of it became so much of a threat in the eyes of the corporations that they fronted a carpetbagger to try and unseat him. If Dennis was such a "loser", why would they bother? No, they realize voices like his are being listened to--same thing happening on the right with Ron Paul, who also doesn't like the military-industrial complex.

[seaglass]

60. I agree Clark2008, they all seemed like re-treads. I had lukewarm

support for Dodd, liked Kucinich's ideas but felt he would not be a good leader and preferred Edwards over the 2 remaining.

I think we've squandered the potential we've had since 2006 (and it took me a long time to admit that - I was ecstatic about the 2006 results) and I'm afraid we've squandered this opportunity too.

[Perry Logan]

22. And here I like them both! I guess that makes me happier than you.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. It is ridiculous

All the bashing between the two sides, because in matters of policy, they are closer together than any of the other candidates. Personally, I prefer Kucinich to either of them, and plan to spend part of my Bush bribe money to support Dennis's bid for Congressional re-election and to find others in his progressive mold to support.

[Bluenorthwest]

88. I'm interjecting...

I think that the bashing is happening because they are almost exactly the same in policy. They have nothing to talk about but personality. If they differed on issues, they could talk about that. But they don't, so they have to talk about church and Bill and flagpins. In fact, the two candidates themselves are to blame for that. On Obama's side, they roll with this message of 'I'm change, she's the status quo' but that is harder to sell when one looks at Obama's yes vote on Cheney's Engergy Bill, her no vote, and a gas pump.
The other day an Obama backing friend of mine, assuming I back Hillary for having questions about Obama, went off for a few minutes on the subject ' she is not a Democrat because no real Democrat would vote for the Patriot Act'. When he finished I pointed out that Obama voted for it as well, and I thought he was going to slug me. He finally had to admit it. He was absolutely slamming her for a vote Obama also made, but then he called Pelosi a traitor for the continued war funing that Obama also voted for.
Just saying I am about issues and principles. These two twin candidates are not really for me, I'll vote for one if I must, but that is it.

[Bread and Circus]

29. That's because Hillary and Barack are what we have left. Dealing in fantasy talk is not productive.

[HousePainter]

32. Let's start with decency

and go from there. Barack Obama may be more centrist than some of us like but he is the one candidate in this race who shown that he is a genuine and thoughtful human being. McCain and Clinton are horrors.
So let's take the first step toward reclaiming the moral high ground by getting behind someone who will not sell us down the river for their own twisted ambition or their warped sense of life and history.

[Tyler Durden]

48. You aren't helping EITHER.

9 posts do not a pundit make.

An equal number (In the REAL WORLD) think the same thing of Obama. I think the the time for your sort of hyperbole is over, and a good thing too.

[Carni]

74. This is the kind of shit I am talking about...

Reclaiming the moral high ground?

And just who prey tell are you Mr or Mrs 9 posts who danes to tell us what a *monster* Hillary Clinton is and what a savior Obama is.

You people just don't get it which leads me to wonder if there are a bunch of Limbaugh operation chaos types running at large here at DU.

[Tyler Durden]

Someone's "sockpuppet," likely.

Another unpleasant practice that was not done back then with the same regularity.

[Zookeeper]

157. "Twisted ambition?" She's "twisted" for daring to run...

for President, but a younger MAN, with less time in the Senate, has an acceptable level of ambition?

As to a warped sense of life and history, I suppose Obama could be accused of the same, depending on which version of his life-story you choose.

Some of us don't love either candidate, we just want to see a Democrat elected in November.

[MadBadger]

36. I think you are overestimating the size of your contigency

[bpeale]

118. oh no he's not overestimating the contingency. in fact

i think he's distinctly UNDERestimating it. everywhere i go, everyone i talk to is disgusted by BOTH candidates. that is not a good sign. this Edwards democrat elects to vote Edwards in the GE because no one else has EARNED my vote. oh no, its underestimated everywhere...on or off the web.

[smalll]

145. (Constituency, not contingency.)

:hi:

[Zookeeper]

158. Umm, no. We're a large group who isn't bothering much...

with DU right now, because we're tired of being attacked (especially by Obamaniacs) when we try to actually discuss the candidates without relying on talking points.

[Dawgs]

37. That still doesn't make you right.

And, what makes you think it would be any different if we had someone else; someone that you would prefer?

[Cronus Protagonist]

126. I'm not trying to be right

And it would be a LOT different if we had someone that MOST Democratics would prefer, instead of these two buffoons.

[Vinca]

43. So if you have a choice between either of our candidates and McCain,

where does that leave you? Install McCain, lose your health insurance. Install McCain, more war. Install McCain, oursource more jobs. My original choice was Edwards, the I went to Kucinich when Edwards wimped out on single payer healthcare. Obama and Clinton each have baggage. The only reason we don't hear about Hillary's is she refuses to talk about it. That doesn't mean we won't be bombarded with cigars and blue dresses during the general. A new candidate won't come out of the sky on a flaming pie during the convention, so you might as well come to terms with that fact.

[Tesha]

47. I'm not the original poster, but I'll answer the question.

If the "main choice" is McCain versus Obama, I'll
certainly be voting for Obama. (Based on the voting
methd I described above,) I approve of Obama and can
offer at least my vote to the man. I would have
preferred any of several other candidates over Obama,
but he still has my approval. And I think in the
worldwide realpolitik situation that America finds
itself in these days, the election of a black man
would greatly help in the reforming of America's
"world image" after eight yeas of having a white
asshole as our public face..

If the "main choice" is McCain versus Clinton, I
will be voting somewhere farther to the left for
the Presidential Race and voting downticket for
the rest of the Democrats. I do not approve of
Clinton and believe she would be a disaster for
both our country and our party, and I believe
the political career of the Clintons (and the
rest of their DLC cronies) muct be stopped now.

Tesha

[Cronus Protagonist]

127. Gosh, you're not the sharpest knife on the christmas tree, are you?

It's impossible to reach some people. *plonk*

[high density]

46. Boo hoo.

My first, second, and third choices didn't win either. We've got what we've got, and it beats John McCain.

[Cronus Protagonist]

143. You are correct to refer to our candidates as "it"

They don't even rise to being called "either one", as you so poignantly noted.

[LWolf]

49. We're not stuck until one of them gets the "magic" number

of delegates.

I, for one, am writing to all of the super delegates from my state, asking them to support neither; to nominate someone else.

At this point, I'll compromise on MANY. Gore is the obvious choice, but I'll take Edwards or any of the others who dropped out before super tuesday.

I never did "much like" HRC or BHO. The longer this primary season goes on, the more I dislike them both.

[CK dexter]

50. And that contingency is called angsty rebellious adolescents

and adults who never outgrew that stage.

Save it for the next election, when you have a chance to work for someone new who you really do like. But for now the primary's over, and this about whether or not you want to elect McCain.

Don't like HC or OB? Fine. Now get over it. Shut up and do something helpful.

[Tesha]

70. You understand that what is helpful in the long run may be painful right now, right?

For example, sometimes the best long-term outcomes
come from losing elections (especially if, say, the
next four years are likely to be a depression).

Tesha

[SammyWinstonJack]

72. How about you shut up?

:eyes:

[Tyler Durden]

94. Yet ANOTHER "Get over it" asshole.

You know what, newbie? You can take your amateur psychology and shove it up your ass.
Don't tell ME to get over it. I've worked for campaigns since RFK

Oh yeah. Welcome to fucking DU, shithead.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

100. I find your remarks really off topic

Kindly remember that the OP was about those of us who are not committed to either Clinton or Obama being bashed by one side or the other because we interject comments about the campaigns that a particular group doesn't like. Personally, I find it very helpful to point out the strengths and weaknesses of both campaigns, because I am interested in winning in November. But it does become tiring when some poster assumes I'm pro-Obama or pro-Clinton because of a comment made.

Oh, and by the way, thank you for calling this 57-year-old an adolescent. Made me feel young again, even though in my youth I was taught to be polite to other people, something that appears to be sadly lacking in posting on the internet.

[racaulk]

117. You call others adolescents and in the same breath tell others to "shut up."

Here, take a good look at this:

[Cronus Protagonist]

128. Hey Dexter, you're real name is Bill O'Reilly, isn't it?

Call it a hunch. :P

[Zookeeper]

159. What are you talking about?!?

Maybe you haven't been around DU long enough to know to whom you are lecturing.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom of 97 posts, though.

[Armstead]

52. The reality is you're stuck with one of these two or McCain -- Deal with it

Sure in an ideal world, we might have some widely regarded giant who has just the right mix of positions to satisfy everyone.

But at this point, that's in the realm of wishful thinking. And aside from the parlor game of "Who would be your ideal candidate?" that's the reality we have to deal with and work with.

It's a waste of time and energy to be slamming both candidates. I've picked one who I think is the best of the lot. (and who I get to respect more over time.) My first choice of all the possibilities? Nope. But one eitehr has to pick a horse to ride, or else walk.

If one really is totally against both Democratic prospects, then it might be a better use of time to forget the whole process, focus on your life or otehr issues and hold youe nose and vote...or not.

[Tyler Durden]

53. Much to our pain and regret.

Here's to the DNC, the DLC, our two Candidates and their Campaigns...SUCKIN' MY DICK.

I wish I'd never heard of ANY of them.

[Armstead]

54. If you feel that way, you'd be a lot happier forgetting about it

If the electoral process hasn;t tosseed up a candidate you can at least tolerate, then you might be better off following baseball in the coming months.

Seriously, apathy (or at least detachment) is preferable to bitterness when things are not exactly as one would like.

[Tyler Durden]

63. 39 years is a long time in Political Activism to finally realize its futility.

I've canvassed, caucused, run for office, foot soldiered...

Sad to see so much effort over time has finally come to THIS.

[Armstead]

89. I'm fairly cynical -- But you make me feel like Polyanna

My attitude for a long time has been that National Politicians are a necessary evil, and the only way they will change is if the expectations and demands of the public force them to change.

I think Bill Clinton sealed that for me in the 90's.

So I've tended to focus on issues and people closer at hand, on the theory that enough little ripples might causer larger waves, that would force the fuckers to at least take us ("the people") into account.

In terms of the current race, I support Obama because IMO he is the most likely to be pushed by such things. I also think he "gets it" in terms of the systemic meltdown, and is -- at least -- closer to what I believe really needs to be done to change things.

So, I'm not holding my breath that either of them would go for the full-out reforms that are necessary. That's up to you and me and the neighbors.

[Tyler Durden]

91. I have given up on Republics.

We need a Parliamentary Socialistic Democracy.

Sure it won't come soon and maybe not in my lifetime, but it is the dominant form of government in one way or another in peaceful and successful countries today, to a more or less degree.

Republics FACTIONATE to coin a word. You can't factionate if you have to form coalitions simply to have a government.

[Armstead]

93. I agree with that

IMO, that's the biggest flaw in our system, and has led to "one size fits all" politics that doesn;t allow for real coalitions over real issues.

The winner-take-all two-party straitjacket is a major obstacle to progress.

[Tyler Durden]

98. And we wonder why England has largely been internally intact since Cromwell fell.

A polite and stable form of government.

Then we can limit the campaigns to 2 months.

I can dream, can't I?

[Stinky The Clown]

55. :::Raising hand::: Proud to be rec numero five

The candidatimaniacs really **are** the minority except in Echochamberville where they rule their respective roosts.

ABBBorH

[greguganus]

56. You are all dead to us. n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

57. No worries, you can always vote for Nader or McCain. n/t

[Tesha]

66. Ahh -- a content-free reply that bolsters the OP's point. Thanks! (NT)

[Cronus Protagonist]

129. Sometimes do wonder if some people think before posting

There is little evidence for it sometimes. :P

[MNDemNY]

58. NO we are not stuck!

Gore/Edwards

[Stinky The Clown]

64. Some of the replies in this thread are amazing

Essentially .... "Fuck You"

Nice.

That's helpful.

[SammyWinstonJack]

73. Typical and not surprising at all.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

102. The ones I love

are the ones that talk of posters being immature and then making immature, unhelpful statements, such as "shut up". The poor language used by so many is indicative of the downward spiral of what passes for discussion here. Too bad. There is much we can do to help elect not only a Democratic President but also a strongly Democratic Congress--I'm open and willing to discuss strategy--but I've been reluctant to post because it seems any sort of serious OP attracts the unhelpful types.

[Cronus Protagonist]

132. I tend to bring out the best in people

And when their main outlook is nasty, their best is often just plain nasty :P

[Carni]

65. Oh how DARE YOU!

I started out in this promary thinking ALL the candidates looked good then gravitated to Edwards because I liked his populace message.

The utterly foul attitudes of the Obama groupies is what eventually guided me into the Clinton camp once Edwards dropped out...but truth be told Hillary would not have been my first choice and I am quite frankly really pissed off that we are stuck in this situation.

I have been told repeatedly that the Obama camp will not need my vote in November if he wins the nomination and I will GLADLY be obliging them by writing in Edwards name on my ballot.

[SammyWinstonJack]

75. I might do the same. I have stated that I would vote for Obama if he is the nominee, but

that would require me to "grow up". :silly: Edwards was my only choice, maybe I'll just write him in.

[Carni]

78. Funny you should say that

Because I kind of feel like expressing my actual opinion in this race would be the more mature thing to do as opposed to voting for someone who I cannot stand.

If my party can't get it's act together then I am done marching in lockstep, writing checks and wasting time.

[GihrenZabi]

68. ?

How is this even a question anymore? Are you not paying attention?

Yes, you are stuck with these two. Pick one, or pick McCain, or stay home. There are your choices. :)

[bpeale]

119. no we don't have only 2 choices. we have Nader & write-in Edwards

get over it. you can't force someone to vote your way.

[Cronus Protagonist]

142. I beleive Edwards only SUSPENDED his a campaign

He's still in the running at a brokered convention.

[SammyWinstonJack]

69. I don't want either of them! I don't like being played and we were!

x(

[GihrenZabi]

77. Why complain?

It is what it is.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

103. Better to take action

What I have chosen to do is support Kucinich in his Congressional race. I also intend to support other "down ticket" progressives whose views are like mine. Change will come-but it starts in small steps.

As for "Why complain?" It is constructive if it is an impetus to positive action. Without action, nothing changes--if we had accepted "It is what it is", we'd still have slavery, no rights to vote for women, no choice when it comes to family planning. These injustices were all changed by people who took a step beyond complaining and took action.

[ourbluenation]

79. OH Please. It isn't that large of a contingency or we'd be talking about different people right now.

In reality, I'm part of a small contingency who voted for Edwards. Wish it were different but he just didn't get the votes.

[OneBlueSky]

81. not necessarily true . . . I (and I suspect many others) very seldom post . . .

about the election campaign because I don't have a horse in this race . . . I believe that the Democrats are self-destructing with this Clinton-Obama pissing contest, and that whichever one is the nominee will ensure an election close enough for the Republican corporations to steal quite easily . . .

while I don't particularly like either candidate, I will probably vote for the Democratic nominee, but it won't make a whole lot of difference . . . in a close race, the Republican tabulators will have an easy time finding a few key districts in a few key states in which to work their magic . . . and, voila, a McCain presidency . . .

that we Democrats allowed this race for the nomination to come down to two underqualified corporatist/centrists will prove to have been a huge mistake come November . . . we should have -- and could have -- done much, much better . . .

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

104. why post when whatever you say you know is going to be bashed?

Frankly, I rarely post in GD P because of all the bashing and name calling, etc, even when I state that I am attempting to look at the campaigns objectively because I don't have a horse in the race any more.

[redqueen]

82. Uh... yeah... we're stuck with these two.

This your first election?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

83. There's always Ralph Nader ...

Or, we can settle for one of these two.

As for who do WE want? This WE would like a Kucinich/Edwards or Edwards/Kucinich ticket. But those seem unlikely at this stage.

:hi:

[dflprincess]

114. We have to settle

just on the assumption that any Supreme Court appointments Clinton or Obama make would at least be marginally better than McCain.

I have to admit that, if you put a gun to my mother's head and told me I had to choose a candidate (if you put a gun to my head, I'd tell you to shoot me) I'd go with Obama. Only because I hold out a faint hope that I could be wrong about him and he would be a pleasant surprise once in the White House...I have no such hope for Clinton.

[bpeale]

153. no. we don't have to settle. vote for the candidate you actually WANT for president

[bigwillq]

85. I am not a huge supporter of either.

But I feel at this point, Obama has earned the nomination more than Clinton.
Obama is leading in elected delegates, has more support from the supers and has won more of the popular vote so far. I feel that Obama deserves the nomination.

But neither is as progressive as I would like them to be. But either will be much better with McCain. I am going to vote for the DEM nominee.

[dflprincess]

109. Neither one of them have the votes the rules require for nomination

(and the Obama fans like to remind us of the rules). Until one of them does, we can hope for a deadlocked convention and the nomination of an acutal Democrat.

[rinsd]

87. How dare you not like my moderate candidate or their moderate candidate!

:evilgrin:

[JimGinPA]

90. There Is Only A Small Number Of You Here Who Can't Decide...

Maybe 3 tops.

[Cronus Protagonist]

134. Isn't that a pic of Obama's campaign strategists?

Looks a lot like them.

[bpeale]

152. i've decided ... not to vote for either of them

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. We Don't Forget You, We Just Think You're Really Really Silly.

:silly:

[Cronus Protagonist]

131. You're the sock puppet for who?

I'm just wondering who the "we" is in your statement. You and the hand up your ass?

:dilemma:

[Scout]

96. THANK YOU!!

it doesn't matter who i support anyway, i'm in Michigan, and my vote won't count.

[snooper2]

97. Yeah...we call you..

The Naderites :rofl:



GOBAMA!

[Cronus Protagonist]

133. Still got that head in the sand, huh?

I wouldn't spit on Nader if he were on fire and begging me to do it. I would, however, vote for any Democratic candidate. That concept appears lost to you.

[Solon]

99. I noticed the response to this thread, it looks like Obamatons and Hillarites hate...

independent thought, which doesn't surprise me, they traded in their brains for campaign stickers, they have no need to think anymore.

[Cronus Protagonist]

130. "They traded in their brains for campaign stickers"

That made me laugh out loud. Thanks for posting it. :P

[Solon]

144. Its the truth, and that's the sad part...

Its just fucking pathetic, what people reduce themselves to, to support a fucking politician, of all things, and not even a politician they agree with on the issues half the time.

[Jed Dilligan]

101. Neither one was my first choice,

but of the choices remaining I see a pretty big difference between the two.

[knixphan]

111. ditto.

from a Dennis-to-Barack guy

[Jed Dilligan]

113. Same here.

[Freedom Train]

116. yes, it really is sad

that out of the bunch we started with, we ended up with the two WORST! Barring the miracle of a brokered convention that would nominate a third compromise candidate (Gore? Edwards?), we are stuck with them, too. I voted for Hillary because her chances of winning the general are better, especially because of her blue-collar support, but the Obamites are too blind to see it. Neither would make a very good president policy-wise, but at this point I just want to WIN, damnit!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

120. Yep. Two moderate politicians running to the center.

But, Hillary has a commanding lead in the sleaze factor.

[Carrieyazel]

140. Of course we're stuck with them. They're both highly flawed, vulnerable candidates who can't win.

Neither one can get a real edge on the other, because all of their different weaknesses and strengths tend to cancel each other out.

[EndElectoral]

141. Just once I'd like to vote for a candidate who didn't vote for the IWR and keeps defending it!!!!!

[depakid]

147. It would have been hard to choose two weaker candidates is we tried

I hear sentiments like that a lot IRL.

Unless something is done at the convention, I don't hold out much hope for November, absent a McCain meltdown.

[barack the house]

148. The only comments I've come across are wright and he's not running really.

[Unbowed]

149. Aren't those people called Republicans?

[mmonk]

150. Those are the two left. So you aren't going to choose?

[bpeale]

151. nope. i will not settle for less than the candidate i want.