Attack Bush But Can't Defend Kerry...

[hedgetrimmer]

How long will this take to lock? like last-night? link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=578046&mesg_id=578046&page=

What merit can the Democrats stand on... How do you convince your sludge slinging GOP uncle?

Don't be woooosies and "not indulge my Kerry hater-ness"... right now I am a Bush-man (hypothetical), stop attacking Bush and defend Kerry... bring it on! Convince me that Kerry is a respectable candidate that will let America be America again.

You nimrod flim-flamers can't defend your man... Attack Attack Attack but when you get it you whine like little prissies and lock a thread... Flip-flop Kerry can't even read his own Iraq intelligence papers and yet has the gall to attack Bush... defend him you cry baby liberals...

[Cats Against Frist]

1. It's "gall"

You are trying to flame.

This is my statement:

http://www.cursor.org/stories/fascismintroduction.php

The answer to this lies simply in the fact that the GOP has absorbed its extremists into the mainstream of the party, and they are flirting with fascism that must be put down -- by all voters.

All voters should vote against the GOP to send a message to their mainstream extremists, hate provocateurs and corporate handlers that Americans will take only so much before they smell a rat.

I am an independent, and I am not speaking on behalf of the left, but on behalf of the Constitution.

(This is for moderates. The far right has "left the building," so to speak. I don't worry about them.)

[hedgetrimmer]

5. Thanks for the Gall... indy attacker

bring the whole yim of the yam into it but you are not defending Kerry but yet still attacking the good 'ol boys...

side note: I agree with this countries people sending a message but what message is Kerry? Defend him, as against the mainstream extremists, the hate provocateurs and corporate handlers... put him as the hero in the mist who will make "America Stronger"...

[amber dog democrat]

2. I dont need to defend Kerry.

He arleady has my vote, but I do have the highest respect for some who may oppose the war but volunteers for combat assignments. - unlike someone who pulled strings to get in the national guard, got photographed in uniform for poiltical campaigns later on down the road and made sure to avoid combat.

I won't stop attacking Bush. He is an evil tht Needs to be attacked.
You can tell your uncle to go Cheney himself.

[hedgetrimmer]

7. How clever "Cheney himself" ha ha! how about we take it to the "john"

there are two of 'em, you got your pick... the flip flopper or the cash cow... are you into Kama sutra or bestiality?

Can you stop attacking the other side and embrace your guy like an inspiration? And let that be the driving force? or is the driving force "Down with Bush"?(pathetic)

[gate of the sun]

3. It used to be that an intelligent and well informed post

was the agenda here on DU......I think hedgetrimmer wants to hear you all defend our candidate......It would be helpful to me as well.....I have republican relatives and when they talk about Kerry I find myself going blank in adjectives that might encourage them. I can only find fault with bush and not alot to say about Kerry. The recent news that he didn't even read the intelligence report on Iraq is disheartening.

Let's not pretend folks.....here's what we are up against....it's not an easy line to cross..defending Kerry in the light of what he has and is representing.....Sure I want bush out more than anything. I'll vote for Kerry but I know our situation is not going to dramatically improve. There are huge issues to be addressed......WTO, Nafta, the patriot act......the invasion of Iraq and what's going on in Afghanistan.

What are we to do? these are such crucial issues.
Let's not fool ourselves in the fervor of getting Kerry elected. We want a country for and of the people and a lot of things must change to bring us back from where we are......

[Leilani]

8. Right, intelligent & well informed posts

used to be here pretty frequently.

I always enjoyed reading them, & sometimes got involved in some great discussions. Many of those posters are gone, or here infrequently.

Not much of that here anymore, sad to say.

[Cats Against Frist]

11. Jesus Fucking Christ

The person asked about the way to win voters. The way to win voters may not be to defend Kerry, and not to attack Bush, but attack right-wing extremism. It's pretty easy for anyone with half a brain to see that the GOP is tottering on the edge of some kind of abyss of power and ideology gone amuck.

They've decided to mobilize their base -- that is the Bush strategy, and they're going to alienate enough moderates with their "God" talk -- just like they did with Pat Robertson.

I don't mind moderate governance -- I am for one of two systems of governance:

1. A system like we had under Clinton, where left and right is balanced out, government is streamlined, but there is sensitivity to the poor and a liberal social attitude.

2. The crash of the whole system, whereby a radical compromise would be in order that would restore us much closer to the ideals of classical liberalism. Hopefully, states' rights would sequester conflicting ideologies in their separate corners, and I could live on a fucking commune on the Olympic Peninsula and no one would bother me.

So I'm OK with Kerry. I'm not left-wing pandering for Dennis Kucinich or Ralph Nader. I would prefer Kucinich for President, but I'm not FUCKING INSANE enough to believe that it is a reality.

I've also learned a few lessons from our blackshirts on the right, and that in asking them not to be so god damn extreme -- we should remind ourselves of our own extremity. Not that I believe that human rights, decency, environmentalism, et. al. is extreme -- but trying to engineer everything through big government is extreme. And the corporations feed off of big government -- they LOVE big government. If both the left and right would snap out of their collective ideological bullshit, and start trying to make this a better place, and practicing some tolerance, things might get better.

So Kerry is a good leader -- he believes in human rights, he's pro-choice, no matter what his convoluted rhetoric, he served bravely in a stupid war, he's smart like me, and he doesn't what to turn this nation over to evangelical Christians.

This is a good enough argument for a moderate. The Bush Kool-Aid fanclub has already made up their minds.

[hedgetrimmer]

14. You did it! (well the best to date)

"So Kerry is a good leader -- he believes in human rights, he's pro-choice, no matter what his convoluted rhetoric, he served bravely in a stupid war, he's smart like me, and he doesn't what to turn this nation over to evangelical Christians."

[Cats Against Frist]

16. You're God Damn Right I Did It

This election isn't about the cult of personality of a president. This election is a grudge match between the centrist and more sensible liberals and the infected-with-extremist right. Who can win the most centrist voters and eek out a victory?!

The best way to get voters is to tell the truth. Most people discussing this have no perspective but their own narrow minds -- left and right -- and are caught up in some serious ideological hoke that has nothing to do with governance but an idealistic "workers paradise" vs. "personal responsibility" model -- neither of which is credible or relevant to the classically liberal ideals upon which this nation was founded.

I hate to espouse the Constitution like a Bible -- but just spend some time reading the writings of the framers -- it's all there -- the role of God -- the role of virtue -- decency -- human rights. Then read some Enlightenment philosophy and the de Tocqueville rag on democracy.

We're not giving our framers enough credit for the rather brilliant government they created -- and we're trashing it through extreme ideologies of the left and right and how they intermingle with government. This battle isn't about GOVERNANCE, it's about fighting a cultural war between religion and modernity. This battle should take place OUTSIDE of government. The plan for government is already there -- in the Constitution.

The GOP extremist ideologues need to cheney themselves for the way they are treating our Constitution and our nation. The party leaders used to know better than this, but they've sold their souls for votes. Liberalism would have easily won, if they hadn't mobilized the Evangelicals -- ONE THIRD OF WHOM ARE VERY MUCH CANDIDATES FOR THE LOONY BIN.

I know this sounds weird, and maybe I'm stringing things together incoherently, but it is late, late, late, late.

It's not about Kerry. It's not about Bush. It's about the GOP absorbing their extreme right into their mainstream. They've given us all the ammunition that we need -- they think they're being so smart getting the "Democrats on Record" for who is for gay marraige -- but what THEY'VE done is put THEMSELVES on record for who is willing to try to play fast and loose with our most cherished document for political games and delusional votes. Just barely half the people in the country supported this amendment anyway.

I have a feeling they will end up destroying themselves, and in their desperation end up making themselves look like a caricature. Kerry and Edwards need to be careful with this, though.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

[sandnsea]

4. They this

A whole thread of Kerry comments. We've been writing the positive aspects of Kerry for a year now. If you don't know, you don't want to know. And my sludge slinging GOP uncle? I don't have one, but for others in my family, I just point to my 18 year old son and say he deserves a President who knows what it means to fight in a war. I haven't had one make a peep in response.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x578119

[complain jane]

6. Kidding, right?

You really ought to head over to Free Republic and ask the same of those dimwits. Your post describes Bush's entire campaign to a T.

[hedgetrimmer]

10. If you can't defend Kerry then we've lost...

for example: I got these shoes because I did not like the other pair that was available...

Why don't you go over to free republic and give it a whirl? Them "dimwits" I want to be able to reach, what is your point... Defend Kerry...

[beyurslf]

9. We shouldn't have the defend the Democratic nominee from Democrats

Go write in DK if it makes you feel better but I will gladly put JK on my ballot.

[hedgetrimmer]

12. ATTACKER! woof woof ... standing by your man but you can't say why.

Write in DK if you want(small minded comment)... Defend Kerry?... but, but why should I have to to other Democrats; Because I am taking it easy on you and if you don't want Georgie Porgie Kissing the girls you better be able to defend Hanoi Kerry the flip-flopping, ill-informed Democrat poster boy of a "Stronger America".

[cidliz2004]

17. You just don't get it.....do you?

This isn't a black and white issue. This isn't my guy is 100% good and your guy is 100% bad. It is coming down to his is best for the country. In the 24+ years that John Kerry has served as a Senator, I can safely say that he has been elected a few times. I can safely say that, while in office, the citizens of Mass. were not polarized and ready to throw him out of office. I can safely say that he hasn't had any "scandals" in his service in the Senate. I can safely say that John Kerry was ELECTED and then RE ELECTED without question.

John Kerry volunteered to put his body into Vietnam, when others were going to Canada to avoid the draft. Upon returning from Vietnam, he then courageously stood up against the establishment and the military to talk about the atrocities that were being committed in Viet Nam and openly protested a war that he sacrificed his life in.
A very unpopular decision that he is paying for 30 years later. A vet that went to Nam and saw active duty and then came home and protested what he saw.....COURAGE Some of the same courage that our soldiers in Iraq and Afganistan are using right now. John Kerry is not a quitter. When it all but appeared that he was going to lose in Iowa and his campaign was falling flat, he took strong steps MADE SOME CHANGES and FIXED his campaign and mortgaged his home to finance his continued campaign and then won Iowa. This is courage and intelligence.

John Kerry may not be "Mr. cowboy soundbite guy that everybody wants to have a beer with, but, he is a man that has shown stregnth by putting HIS OWN life, neck and finances on the line to get what he wants and to fight for what he believes in. He knew what he wanted and he was FLEXIBLE enough to know when he had to make changes to stay in the race.

Black ..... White...... I know this is a much easier concept for you to grasp. Looking at Bush I understand why you think this way and why you crave this type of answer. Do yourself a favor - grow beyond surface answers and questions. Know that things have many layers and to properly address issues, you don't answer in 4 - 8 word sentences and stop. Life is not that simple, although a large number of Americans are acting like it is.


Arianna Huffington says it so much better than I:

"As far as the "flip flop" name you keep giving Kerry... How about the flip flops for Bush?
On the 2004 campaign trail, it’s the pathologically inconsistent Bush
attempting to portray John Kerry as a two-faced flip-flopper.

It's become the Bush-Cheney campaign mantra. GOP talking points 1 through
100. The president's go-to laugh and applause line:

"Senator Kerry has been in Washington long enough to take both sides on
just about every issue," chided Bush at a spring fundraiser. "My opponent
clearly has strong beliefs, they just don't last very long." Ba-da-bum!
(Incidentally, how is this consistent with Bush's other contention, that
Kerry is a rock-ribbed liberal?)

Or as Dick "Not Peaches and Cream" Cheney ominously put it at a Republican
fundraiser: "These are not times for leaders who shift with the political
winds, saying one thing one day and another the next."

I couldn't f---ing agree more, Mr. Cheney. But it's your man George W. who
can't seem to pick a position and stick to it. He's reversed course more
times than Capt. Kirk battling Khan in the midst of the Mutara Nebula.
Gone back on his word more times than Tony Blundetto. Flip-flopped more
frequently than a blind gymnast with an inner-ear infection.

The list of Bush major policy U-turns is as audacious as it is long. Among
the whiplash-inducing lowlights:

In September 2001, Bush said capturing bin Laden was "our number one
priority." By March 2002, he was claiming, "I don't know where he is. I
have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important."

In October 2001, he was dead-set against the need for a Department of
Homeland Security. Seven months later, he thought it was a great idea.

In May 2002, he opposed the creation of the 9/11 Commission. Four months
later, he supported it.

During the 2000 campaign, he said that gay marriage was a states' rights
issue: "The states can do what they want to do." During the 2004 campaign,
he called for a constitutional ban on gay marriage.

Dizzy yet? No? OK:

Bush supported CO2 caps, then opposed them. He opposed trade tariffs, then
he didn't. Then he did again. He was against nation building, then he was
OK with it. We'd found WMD, then we hadn't. Saddam was linked to Osama,
then he wasn't. Then he was … sorta. Chalabi was in, then he was out. Way
out.

In fact, Bush's entire Iraq misadventure has been one big costly, deadly
flip-flop:

We didn't need more troops, then we did. We didn't need more money, then
we did. Preemption was a great idea — on to Syria, Iran and North Korea!
Then it wasn't — hello, diplomacy! Baathists were the bad guys, then
Baathists were our buds. We didn't need the U.N., then we did.

And all this from a man who, once upon a time, made "credibility" a key to
his appeal."

This campaign has been all about the pot calling the kettle "black".


Kerry is the only chance out of this mess. We already know what the Bush team is capable of.

cidliz2004

[ugarte]

13. I don't feel the need to defend Kerry or hype him

In my voting lifetime of some 20 odd years I cannot recall ever voting for a Democrat I loved. I've always voted against a Republican I hated.

[hedgetrimmer]

15. Bravo! Stop the hated... lifes mysteries ended...

What the hell is this party then if all it does is vote against the Republican it "hates"? Hype him... nah, embrace him... nah, I just don't like that other pair of shoes... so I'll buy the Kerry brand.

Defend him... the nimmies have got a hold of the whole fucking government and all you can do is say "I don't feel a need to defend Kerry" but yet that is the attack plan of those you hate and you can't do jack shit about it...

[ugarte]

19. Yep, can't do jack shit about it

I don't love Kerry, but hate Bush.

[blitzen]

18. Kerry: practical, public-minded solutions to real problems...example:

His proposal for Forest Conservation Corps. Would stop corporate welfare supporting commercial logging in our national forests, instead using those funds to create JOBS for people who would restore forests, streams, and habitat. Kerry also pledges to fully fund forest firefighting costs and to reduce fuels in overstocked forests (another plan that would provide JOBS), thus disarming the bogus right-wing claim that we need to log the hell out of our forests to prevent them from burning.

[cidliz2004]

20. Have you ever been in a situation where there are two people

One with a gun pointing it at you and the other one saying "come on over here, I'll help you".

The guy with the gun is really far away from you but he is getting closer and he is pointing the gun right at you, but he is smiling and he looks like Matt Damon. Behind this guy are bombs going off and alot of wailing and screaming.

The other guy looks like Clint Eastwood, he is squinting and he is kind of gruffly saying "come on over here, I'll help you". He has on a badge and he is standing next to a doorway pretty close to you. You can see bright light through the doorway and there are no bombs or wailing.

My question: Tell me why you would choose one of these guys over the other. Tell me what will DEFINITIVELY happen by choosing either one.

Don't tell me why one is better example than the other, because it is about PERCEPTION of the facts, as they surround us.

Above are all of the facts that you are going to get. Make the choice.

If you choose Clint, I don't want ANY of your reasons being that there was anything wrong with Matt Damon. I just want to hear why you chose Clint. and vica versa

[Mobius]

21. Its just a matter of good or evil

bush= evil
kerry= good

Is that simple enough for you? :shrug:

[JDPriestly]

22. A few things I like about Kerry

I like Kerry's positions on the issues -- access to affordable health care for everyone -- tax incentives to create and keep jobs in the U.S. -- a responsible foreign policy based on cooperation with and consideration for the views of friendly countries -- adequate funding for public education -- economic opportunity for all -- enforcement of environmental laws -- protection for nature -- action against global warming -- seriously working to be self-sufficient with regard to energy. I also like Kerry's personal qualities. Here are ten that I especially like.

1. Kerry is a Democrat. History shows that our economy flourishes under Democratic administrations, especially when Democrats control either or both the Senate and the House.

2. Kerry has had good character all his life. He has lived a public life -- as a soldier, a prosecutor and a senator. He is a devout Catholic who follows the tenets of his faith with regard to social issues. Although rich, he cares for working people. As a senator he has supported socially responsible legislation. This is extremely important to me.

3. Kerry is tolerant of the religions and beliefs of others. His stance on abortion reflects this. Although he doesn't personally agree with abortion for religious reasons, he respects women's right to choose.

4. Kerry is a healthy man, balanced spiritually, mentally and physically. He enjoys being physically active and has the confidence to act spontaneously. He loves sports. His mental health is evident in the love he shows for his children and their love for him and by the fact that, although he is quiet, he is a relatively positive man. Kerry disagrees with others, but I haven't seen him express hate toward anyone or be overly judgmental about anyone. His relationship with John McCain shows how well he can get along with people with whom he disagrees.

5. Kerry is not paranoid. He is unafraid to just take an unscheduled walk in a neighborhood and shake hands with perfect strangers -- regardless of their political affiliation. He did that in Los Angeles and elsewhere.

6. Kerry is humble. He is an elegant, educated, refined man, but he isn't full of himself. This is reflected in his quiet sense of humor and his gentle tone. He seems genuinely delighted to watch others do well. I noticed this especially in the recent 60 Minutes interview with Kerry/Edwards. He was overjoyed to watch Edwards talk. You don't get the sense that he feels insecure if he isn't the star, the center of attention, all the time. Kerry's humility is also proved by the fact that he is married to a strong, outspoken woman. A man who can give his wife the intellectual freedom and respect that Kerry gives Teresa is humble in a healthy way. This is particularly true of a man of Kerry's generation. Kerry isn't just a winner himself, he encourages other people to be winners. If elected president, Kerry will help America be a winner. Winning is a part of his mentality and spirit.

7. Kerry can be flexible and pragmatic. This is extremely important. He is intellectually curious enough to listen to, consider and adopt new ideas. As a swift boat captain, his flexibility allowed him to be creative and to go beyond expectations. He was able to startle the enemy to his strategic advantage. As president, he will seek out and consider all the facts. He will surprise his enemies. That is a great strength and even greater strategy. Kerry is not so scared of appearing weak that he can't change his mind. (Calling that "flip-flopping" is childish name-calling, like calling someone a sissy.)

8. Kerry is intelligent. He was able to get into and through a top law school and to pass a bar examination. Believe me. That proves he is smart. We need a president who is smart enough to understand this complex world.

9. Kerry is analytical, a logical thinker. That is prover by the fact that he was a successful prosecutor. His speech is clear. It reflects his ability to think clearly. Kerry is a good debater. He can stand up to the leaders of other countries and explain what he means not only to them but also to Americans.

10. Kerry is a uniter. He showed as a Senator that he knows when to compromise and when to stand firm. He doesn't always have to have his way. That is essential in a democracy.

I could go on and on, but if I discussed all of Kerry's positive qualities in detail, no one would be able to read all of it. I bet almost nobody made it this far. The more you learn about Kerry, the more you like him. Check out Kerry for yourself.

[JSJ]

23. kick and a punch

[InvisibleTouch]

24. I find your posts offensive.

I found your post last night offensive. I find this one, if anything, even more so. If you really want to open a dialogue, then insulting people isn't the way to do it. I for one am hardly going to "defend Kerry" upon your command, and in the face of your insults. There are other ways of asking "What is it that makes you support Kerry?" besides "You nimrod flim-flamers can't defend your man." Oh, super-classy. You think you can get away with it in the dead of night? You think nobody's reading at this hour, so who cares? You're wrong.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I Support Kerry Because He's Not Bush

The same way the center left parties should have formed a coalition with the communists against the national socialists in Wiemar Germany...


What part of that don't you understand?


The republic is under assault from the most pernicious forms of reaction and the Dems and Kerry are a firewall...

God help us all if the firewall doesn't hold...

American democracy will be a thing of the past....

[Skinner]

26. 9 hours and 15 minutes.

That's how long.