The Joseph Wilson revelations.. How damaging?

[PE]

There have been two big revelations this week regarding the Joseph Wilson-Niger story. I was wondering what some of you feel about both (1) the Butler inquiry in Britain which says that Iraqi officials were in Niger in 1999 and (2) the Senate report that stated that they discovered a memo that revealed that Wilson's wife did recommend him for the mission to Niger, something that Wilson had denied.

While none of this justifies the outing of his wife, this is getting big play among conservatives. I was wondering what some of you think this says about Wilson's credibility.

[murielm99]

1. It reeks of red herring. nt

[BurtWorm]

2. I'll reserve judgement on it. I don't know whom to believe.

And as you say, none of it justifies the outing of his wife.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

3. The Federal crime which affects national security outweighs all

outweighs all else by far.

[emulatorloo]

4. As you state, "none of this justifies the outing of his wife"

It is diversion and beside the point.

[Old and In the Way]

5. Iraqi's also visited the US.....so?

Niger yellowcake is a total red herring. As far as her recommendation goes....who was this to? Her superiors at CIA? I confess ignorance on this one....

[rinsd]

6. Matters but doesn't.....

Fitzpatrick's report(the proecutor) and if indictments are handed down will be the bigger deal.

If that doesn't happen though, Wilson's cred attack will take on a larger life in the mainstrem media(though likely it will still be a story)

[styersc]

7. First the memo-

I've not read any mention of a "memo" rather the report cites an unnamed official who claims his wife suggested he be involved in the investigation. Wilson, however, provided several upper level CIA official who went on record stating she was not involved.

Second- the US always claimed that the Niger story was a result of British inttelligence- this is nothing new. The fact remains that the documents that were used to pin an attempt by Iraq to purhase Uranium from Niger are absolutely forgerties, and poor forgeries at that.

When arguning ewith dim-witted Freepers about this claim- all you have to do is ask why Iraq would buy Uranium when they hve no existing nuclear program- no equiptment, no reactors- nothing!!!

And as an aside- regardless of anything that Wilson did or did not do- exposing his CIA agent wife to the press is a felony- that is true and certain. Can an administration that cannot even track a mole in its upper levels be trusted to find terrorists across the globe- you decide.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Credibility? Compared to what? Using a forged document in an SOTU address

to convince the nation to enter into an unwinnable guerilla war?

[xchrom]

9. he committed no crime

now exposing his wife as a cia agent -- THAT'S a crime.

[punpirate]

10. Don't know about the memo recommending him...

... but the stuff about Iraq officials in Niger in 1999 comes largely from the British. The British still claim that because the information came from two separate intelligence agencies (Italy, where the forged memo first appeared, and France), they were justified in passing it on to both Blair and Bush.

What isn't being said that France later admitted that their analysis of the 1999 claim was based on the forged documents, and when they compared the forgery to the reports of the French company with control over the uranium mines, they independently discovered the memo to be forged, after they had informed the British.

But, both the Butler and Senate reports are meant to make the case that the governments and their leaders should be held harmless--it was just bad intelligence--and both reports ignore the pressure for invasion in the White House, and how that might have affected the development of the evidence, exactly what the reports were intended to do.

Cheers.

[Dudley_DUright]

11. Josh Marshall (TPM) has an excellent post on this matter

<snip>

The truth is that we simply don't know whether the Iraqis ever 'sought' uranium in Niger or Africa in the years leading up to the war, though all the evidence we thought we had for such a claim has turned out to be baseless. (There remains the Brits' evidence which they stand by yet won't disclose, and we'll address that later.) And part of the uncertainty is based on the capaciousness of the term. 'Sought' can mean a lot of things -- everything from purchases and active negotiations to vague feelers which might have been intended to lay the groundwork for later attempted purchases.

One bit of evidence that weighs heavily against such claims that Iraq was hunting about looking for a uranium seller in the years just before the war is the simple fact that Iraq seems -- after a rather intense investigation -- not to have had any active nuclear program, thus rather diminishing the need to go around trying to buy uranium, with all the risks that would involve.

<snip>

One other point that deserves mention: quite a bit has been made about the portion of the SSCI Report that says that Wilson's wife recommended him for the assignment. As a matter of substance, who recommended Wilson is irrelevant. Yet, Wilson's credibility would be undermined if he said X were true, when in fact he knew Y was the case. The LAT article notes that Plame's bosses at the CIA continue to insist that the idea to send Wilson was not hers, but rather theirs. The Times quotes a 'senior intelligence official' saying that "Her bosses say she did not initiate the idea of her husband going…. They asked her if he'd be willing to go, and she said yes."

What the truth of it is, I don't know. But the larger hullabaloo over this secondary point is simply intended to distract attention from the administration's persistent attempt to use weak and ultimately discredited information to muscle the country into war on a timetable which had precious little to do with preventing any sort of standing threat to the United States.

more...

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_07_11.php#003161

[DinahMoeHum]

12. It doesn't change the fact that the 'Pukes outed a CIA agent

out of spite, and that's a felony, no matter how you slice it.

:evilfrown:

[creeksneakers2]

13. The story about Wilson's wife

came from a CIA agent. CIA agents are high on my reliability list lately.

[TacticalPeek]

15. "A " CIA agent? OK.

"Plame's bosses at the CIA continue to insist that the idea to send Wilson was not hers, but rather theirs."

Bosses at minimum doubles "a CIA agent". So coming from them, it's at least twice as reliable, by the standard you mention.

This straw man is not even well constructed, is easily dismissed by reference to the paper trail (the Plame memo comes AFTER Wilson is already selected), and is a clear indicator of sheer R fear and trembling. I mean, why else would someone quote a memo 'out-of-order' in a sleazy attempt to deceive people, unless it were an act of utter, final-act desperation?

[coeur_de_lion]

24. Tactical Peak, linking to your post on the Wilson rebuttal

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1999438&mesg_id=2003524

[TacticalPeek]

14. Republican lies from the scandal plagued Bush administration.

Josh Marshall nails this drivel in the post up-thread. Don't see any 'questions' about it after reading that.

But the question that one might consider is: why are these creeps so touchy about this particular element in their web of denial and deceit? Of all the false claims they made, why does this one rate such fiery battle?

Pork Chop Boy knows. Him and his bunch, they're sweating bullets. Bigtime.

Bwaahahahahaha! Piper paying time is here.

GIMME EAT!

[TexasSissy]

16. Neither has anything to do w/retaliating against him by outing wife.

If those things are true. I find the British report skeptical insasmuch as it pretty much mirrors the U.S. Report. An accident?

[TacticalPeek]

17. About that skanky British report.

"We have reliable information on this, but we cannot tell you anything about the source, thereby allowing independent evaluation of the source's reliability."

That's almost childish. Are they afraid that revealing it might tip our hand about invading and occupying Iraq?

[quaoar]

18. Niger's premier denies any meeting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3891503.stm

[featherman]

19. Why does the Butler Report have any credibility in this matter?

It is commonly assumed by most of Britain to have been a befogged and inept whitewash designed solely to cover for the Blair government's culpability. I thought this was pretty much understood. Am I missing something? It now has more credibility than, say, a Jerry Falwell sermon?

[Zorra]

20. Bottom line: Iraq had no WMD. Bu$h is a war criminal for personally

making the decision to invade a sovereign nation that was in no way an imminent threat or clear and present danger to the US.

Bu$h lied, tens of thousands of innocent people died died, and our nation is now about $500 billion in debt.

[sandnsea]

21. read more

What was said in 1999 has nothing to do with Bush including nuclear weapons threats in the SOTU after the CIA told him they were unsubstantiated. Wilson was recommended by a variety of people, maybe they were just running it by his wife after they had already decided on him, who knows.

They blew the cover of a CIA operative, endangered an untold number of lives and an important network in detecting WMD. Let me scream that right in your face, they BLEW THE COVER of a CIA operative. They intentionally DAMAGED the war on terror. Now that, THAT is treason.

Bye now.

[fujiyama]

22. I heard them

going on about this shit on FOX News, when I was flipping past it (I can never be on that station for more than 15 seconds without getting sick to my stomach).

[jacksonian]

23. and there's a prosecutor looking into the outing?

I can't see how any bashing of Wilson, especially with argumentative crap like this, is going to make an investigation go better.

My guess: things are going badly for them, and PR groundwork has to be laid for the deniability. They've reached the "nothing left to lose" stage, no way they want to rehash this in the middle of an election.

[Pepperbelly]

25. One thing that struck me ...

in one of the articles I read regarding Wilson of late, the author indicated that among the papers found after the war was a note from the head of state in one of the African countries (not Niger) where Saddam was offered uranium. In a note scrawled in Arabic on the letter was noted that Iraq could not take them up on it due to the international scrutiny. The implication is that Saddam had no need to find someone to sell uranium to him because he already had a source but would not utilize it because of international pressure.