Motivation thread to help with the Dems moving towards the right

[cally]

We all knew we would be pissed off right now at the Democratic platform. I certainly am. Kerry thinks life begins at conception. :argh: Will send more troops to Iraq and promises to keep them there for a long time. :argh: His Israel stance is obscene, and now he supports pre-emption. :wtf:

This is not intended as a flame war. I'm working hard for the Dems and I truly like and respect both Kerry and Edwards. I knew I would be pissed at whichever Dem nominee at this time. I repeat, any nominee would move to the center. I just want to commiserate with like minded folks. I don't want to trash Kerry or Edwards.

[Radical Activist]

1. The platform makes me think my time is better spent

building the anti-war and progressive movement instead of spending my time helping Kerry get elected. We'll need that movement no matter who is in office. It doesn't look like Kerry will end the war in Iraq or do anything daring at all unless he is pressured to do so. Liberals shouldn't rely on a President to do everything for us anyway. We should find ways to get what we want no matter who is in office.

[cally]

2. The day after Kerry wins, I'll join with you

We have to defeat *. Then I'm going to focus on building a progressive movement. I actually already am. Many of the folks I know working on the Kerry campaign will join together right after the election. I've never seen anything like it before.

[no name no slogan]

35. It's already happening, too!

www.ProgressiveVote.org

There's a lot of state progressive caucuses forming, and they are not only planning for Nov 2, but laying the groundwork for Nov 3.

Just because Kerry's the new president doesn't mean that anything will really change. Sure, it might be a little kinder and gentler, but that only means they'll wear the silk slippers instead of the hobnail boots when they step on your neck.

[Liberal Veteran]

6. Veruca Salt would agree with you.

The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Wouldn't it be better to at least be moving generally in that direction instead of wringing our hands that we aren't at the destination yet?

[Radical Activist]

37. Veruca Salt the band?

Or is there a more serious Veruca Salt that I should have probably heard of?
It's a good quote either way. All progressives can do is keep pushing even when things look hopeless.

[Liberal Veteran]

39. No. I was referring to the character of Veruca Salt from Willy Wonka.

The spoiled little rich girl who wanted everything and wanted it NOW!

That's how I see a lot of the complaints. Like it or not, a extreme liberal or extreme conservative is going to scare of the majority that is more centrist for the most part. The process of moving the country to the left will not be quick and often it will feel like we are treading water. I'd like to snap my fingers and move turn the country around, but I am realistic enough to know that it's going to take time.

Slow and steady wins the race.....always remember that.

[Radical Activist]

41. extremists make change

It was extremists anarchists and union organizers who got us the 8 hour work day before FDR codified it. It was extremist abolitionists who made the country turn against slavery before Lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation. Those changes never would have happened without the outside agitators pushing moderates in office to do the right thing. It will be the same with Kerry. He won't make any major changes that don't come from pressure applied by agitators outside his administration.

[Jack Rabbit]

9. I agree about better spent time

EDITED for typing

However, I prefer to do it after the election. I am voting for Kerry not because I agree with the stands he is taking (I certainly don't), but because I think he is a pragmatist who will eventually do the right thing rather than an ideologue who will assume that if the facts don't fit his theories then the facts must be wrong. In short, I don't believe Kerry for a minute when he says he'll keep troops in Iraq. Circumstances will not permit it; once he realizes this, he will withdraw.

My vote for Kerry should not be interpreted as a blank check. I have protested Bush's colonial occupation of Iraq for months; I am prepared to protest Kerry's colonial occupation of Iraq as well. I reregistered as a Green in 1999, returned to the Democrats last year to underscore my belief that Bush needed to be defeated no matter who the Democrats choose and I can return to the Greens again next year if I think that would help make the world a better place.

For now, it is important to realize that Bush is something other than a merely obnoxious conservative. He is a genuine threat to American democratic institutions. Bush governs America not in the style a legitimate President (which he isn't), but in the style a banana republic dictator. In this respect, I am voting for Kerry in spite my differences with him for the same reason the French Resistance followed the lead of General de Gaulle, with whom most of the Resistance had profound differences, just not nearly as profound as they had with Nazis and collaborationists.

Neoconservatism is as antithetical to the principles of the American Revolution as Nazism was to the French Revolution. Kerry may do the wrong thing, but at least I trust him to do it within a constitutional framework rather than subvert that framework as Bush and the neoconservatives do.

[Liberal Veteran]

11. A wise and rational approach.

I think some people don't understand that unfortunately, a very moderate approach to campaigning is needed to win. I can live with that.

Better that than being driven over a cliff by a right wing whack job like Bush because we decided our candidate wasn't "liberal" enough.

I've already seen the damage done by Bush and anyone who makes arguments that Bush and Kerry are the same is kidding themselves.

[Radical Activist]

38. So come back Woody Guthrie

This weekend I heard Steve Earle play the song Christmas in Washington. Your avatar made me think of that. It has the chorus that goes "So come back Woody Guthrie, come back to us now." The opening line that makes me think of Kerry goes "Its Christmas time in Washington. The Democrats rehearsed gettin into gear for four more years of things not gettin worse."

That sums up of what I expect under Kerry. Another four years of things not getting any worse, and Democrats won't complain much about that lack of progress because he's one of our own. The only way I can get myself to support Kerry is to tell myself that he thinks he can do better than Bush in Iraq and with a lot of other things; and he probably will. So, I'll give him a chance. But, if we're still in Iraq in four years and things haven't changed with trade and some other important issues, then I'll be the first one to support a Democratic primary opponent against Kerry. If we're still in Iraq replacing Kerry will be the only way for Democrats to win in four years anyway.

Kerry is another ambitious politician who will only go as far as he thinks he can go and still get elected. That's why we'll need strong public pressure on the left to get anything done during the next four years under Kerry.

[Liberal Veteran]

3. Why do you care if he thinks life begins at conception?

I don't, but he has publically stated he supports the right for women to choose and that he doesn't feel his own spiritual beliefs should be imposed on others.

That seems like and EXTREMELY rational and logical and fair position.

[cally]

5. Because it's a sop to the religious right

And it's a diferent stance then he has taken before. He can believe what he wants but to state it publically for the first time is diferent. I do care because I think choice matters for my life and my daughter's lives. It's a decision, policy discussion, about what rights women have. Whether men should control women's sex lives and rights to decide whether they are breeders. This discussion goes so far beyond when someone believes life begins and those who don't see the broader implications are just choosing narrow mindedness.

[Liberal Veteran]

8. I disagree. I think he deftly tackled the issue of abortion.

And given the fact that his voting record supports his statements, I don't understand why you are upset with him stating his personal opinion on the issue and contrasting it with his voting record which has consistently favored the right to choose.

Seems like you are mad on that issue because you care more about his personal beliefs are more important than his voting record.

It's a stupid thing to be upset over.

[cally]

10. Do you have any idea how many conversations I've had

in the last few weeks about Kerry's stance on abortion rights? Many, many activists are pissed as hell over this. You may think it's stupid and not important, but many of us are furious and wondering whether we have any roll in the Democratic Party. Dems have to get the women's vote to win. Simple as that. Kerry still has to win women's votes.

[Liberal Veteran]

14. So let me get this straight? You are angry because his personal belief...

...doesn't march in lockstep with yours?

You are more worried about his personal beliefs than how he actually votes?????

He's basically saying that while he personally believes that life begins at conception as part and parcel of his faith, he doesn't believe he has the right to impose that on others?

Would you also be mad at him if he said "Well, I personally think drinking is a sin, but I don't believe I have the right to tell others they cannot drink?"

Jesus Fucking Christ! That's what freedom and democracy is supposed to be about! The ability to disagree with one another personally while not imposing your beliefs on someone else!

What part of that pisses you off?

You are sounding like the right wingers who believe that everyone must believe and LIVE exactly as they do! Don't you realize that?

[cally]

16. You are the one not trying to understand others positions

yes, I'm worried because I am not sure Kerry will not cave and abandon me in his goal of winning. What's wrong with my concern. You don't share it. Fine, then convince instead of saying I support rw beliefs. You are not convincing me that I have nothing to worry about. Instead you are making me very worried.

[Liberal Veteran]

19. I think your position and panic is unrealistic....

You are demanding he not only vote the way you want, but that he must share EXACTLY the same opinion on the issue as you, cause if he doesn't think in lockstep with your thinking he must be some kind of stealth traitor to your pet cause waiting to happen.

I don't like abortion either, but I have consistantly supported a woman's right to choose her own reproductive freedom and have even volunteered to block the fundies from getting in the face of women entering Planned Parenthood.

I am not your enemy on this issue and neither is Kerry. We democrats are supposed to be able to support FREEDOM and LIBERTY over differences of opinion, not trying to make everyone think our way or else.

People like you make me worried, because you cannot seem to fathom the notion that people can disagree on issues yet STILL support a person's liberty and freedom and not try to impose their beliefs on others.

[cally]

20. If I make you worried then we will lose

If we cannot discuss areas of disagreement then we have failed. I'm the biggest supporter of Kerry in the local campaign, not ABB but pro-Kerry. That does not mean that I support him always. Frankly, you scare me so much. What is wrong with you.

[Liberal Veteran]

27. I scare YOU? I am not the one demanding my candidate think exactly like me

and throwing up red flags because his motivations for voting pro-choice is a threat to women's rights.

Why does it scare you that I can understand how a person can be personally against something, but simultaneously be against limiting other people's freedoms?

I am not the one fretting over something that hasn't happened thus far and mistrusting the candidate because his opinions aren't a carbon copy of my own.

Don't try to put this off on me as though I am being unreasonable.

Kerry has consistantly voted pro-choice. Kerry has stated he will continue to vote pro-choice and he has eloquently stated why he will continue to vote pro-choice.

You have yet to offer a single rational reason why I shouldn't take the man at his word.

[Jack Rabbit]

12. I have no problem with Kerry's position on abortion

EDITED for typing

As one bumper sticker said: If you don't believe in abortion, don't get one. Okay, he doesn't believe in abortion. The important thing is that it is a personal belief and he does not think it is the proper basis for public policy. Kerry will not try to use the power of the state to prevent a woman from getting an abortion.

That's good enough for me.

[cally]

13. I'm not convinced of that

Kerry has changed his position and I'm no longer convinced he will continue to support a woman's right to choose. Yes, I will work hard for Kerry but I'm truly upset over his recent statements. I'm hearing my concerns by many voters.

[Liberal Veteran]

15. Why are you no longer convinced of that?

Have you looked at his votes on abortion rights in the last year?

Hell, he voted consistantly against the so-called "partial birth abortion" bill! Don't you think that if he was going to limit your rights that he would have started with that?????

[Jack Rabbit]

18. I think you're being a little too PC

(If I may invoke that term as it was originally intended to be used.)

There are many people who believe as Kerry does. In 1972, Sissy Farenthold, Democratic candidate for Governor of Texas, a feminist and a Roman Catholic, publicly took exactly the same stand. She took heat for it, of course, but firmly said she had no right to impose her personal morality on other people.

Our concern is that a woman have the option to terminate a pregnancy without the state prosecuting her. If Kerry believes in the right to choose, that's all we should ask of him. We don't need to demand that he would make the same choice you or I would.

Furthermore, I think it is a healthy contribution the discussion to point out that one can be personally opposed to abortion and still believe that the government should have nothing to do with the woman's final decision.

[cally]

21. I know many think like Kerry does

and I may personally be closer to his beliefs than you may expect. But this goes beyond that. I've been concerned that the Dems are focusing on the male vote and trying to move away from appealing to women. Look at what Kerry is doing. The man can appeal to women but his strategy appears to be to get the male vote and expect the women to come along. It won't work.

And I do think calling me too PC is an insult.

[Liberal Veteran]

24. Does it make a lot of sense to say "Not only must you vote my way...

....but you must also cast your vote for exactly the same reasons as mine!"?

That's what is not rational.

As long as he votes pro-choice, why must you demand his motivations for doing so should match your own verbatim?

[cally]

26. I never suggested that

I stated that I'm concerned that he will abandon the pro-choice position for political expediency. I just can't take if for granted that he won't. It's called politics. All of us have to push back when candidates start moving against what I believe. So, you don't agree. Fine. I'm not backing down and I will continue to make sure that any Dem nominee supports a women's right to choose.

[Liberal Veteran]

28. And I have stated that I think your concerns are unfounded....

You offer nothing other than a vague sense of panic to suggest he would.

For a pro-Kerry person, I find your lack of faith in his stated position troubling.

I realize that the current political climate breeds paranoia, but Kerry is one of the good guys.

Let's not borrow trouble on this issue.

[struggle4progress]

45. Don't drink the wingnut flipflop-flavored koolaid. Kerry hasn't ...

... changed his position.

The abortion issue is not simple for most people, and the simple soundbites are misleading. Kerry's position is just more complicated than a soundbite.

[Hello_Kitty]

43. Exactly! It's his PERSONAL belief - not forcing it on everyone (n/m)

[peacetalksforall]

4. Please add Cuba and Venezuela

Has he announced a Secretary of Peace yet?

Have we heard many words yet about Peace on Earth and Good Will Towards Man and a campaign to achieve it?

I say noo more killing - of people, their limbs, their organs, their immune systems, their hopes, their opportunities, their water, their reliability on science for good, their freedom, their vote.

I'm against killing and revocation of achievements.
I'm waiting for words that will make me feel more comfortable.

I am incensed about Cuba and Venezuela. I don't know what the answer is on Iraq except to avoid more Iraqs and to put the corporations in their place - they don't own us, they can't own us, they are only us. People who were promised a lot by our parents, teachers, religious leaders, scout and 4-H leaders. They didn't teach us that the corporations would sponsor politicians and pay billions for lobbyists and partner with media corporations who would stifle our news and help steal our votes.

[lastknowngood]

7. Remember you don't matter to the DLC/DNC/RNC cabala

your going to vote the way they intend you to as you really have no choice. We have to get the shrub and his criminal org out of as much power as possible so were stuck voting for repugnant lite.

[freetobegay]

25. Your not stuck voting for anyone!

If you don't like who's on the ticket don't vote! It's really that simple. Blaming groupd groups of people in a political party won;t cut it here. Stop the bitching & find a candidate you like. You even have the choice of writing one in. If enough people thought like you did & wrote a candiates name in then you would have your candidate. I thank God for the DNC/DLC & appearently the majority of Democrats do too.

[mzmolly]

17. Your missing some key points. Let's re-evaluate

Kerry is PRO-CHOICE and will remain so

Kerry wants more FOREIGN troops

Kerry supports pre-emptive strikes AGAINST ACTUAL TERRORISTS not soverign nations

Please let's get away from painting the issues in black/white terms. The world and the issues surrounding the presidency are far to complex for that.

As for his stance on Israel, I need more information.

What is obscene about it? I guess I'm not entirely familiar with the I/P issue. I do know that both Israel and Palestine have very valid concerns that need to be addressed. But the manner in which they are trying to solve their problems is ridiculous.

[freetobegay]

22. I just love it when a reasonable person steps in.

Thanks mzmolly. :)

[mzmolly]

31. I generally get a very different response.

THANK YOU! :hi:

[Forkboy]

23. Kerry fills me with as much excitement as a three day old sandwich

[mzmolly]

30. Yes, but what "kind" of sandwich.

That can make all the difference in the world :P


;)

[mike_c]

29. the real irony for me is that having been a democratic stalwart...

...for 30 years, the Democratic Party has finally, in the most unlikely of elections, produced a candidate (and a party platform) that I am compelled to vote against. I honestly don't know anymore whether I have become radicalized in my middle age or whether the party that I used to think represented me has simply slid away from me.

[Pastiche423]

33. The party has slid away

I watched in horror as the party I was a member of for thirty plus years began the slide to the right. It's left me wondering where I go from here. Is there a party that addresses my myriad of concerns? Will there be such a party ever again in my lifetime?

Until I find an answer, my time is spent on local and state concerns. I am backing a local and a state candidate w/website production and other volunteer work.

But my main thrust is in a watchdog citizen group, as well as a human advocacy group. Seeing some results is gratifying while I watch the national party go to shit.

When I mail in my paper ballot in November there will be a write-in vote for president. A 1st for me.

[troublemaker]

32. Kerry supports Bush's policy of pre-emption. NOT.

There's a dangerous RW meme being taken up by a lot of Democrats here who may not realize that it's part of a RW propaganda campaign. The lie has two parts:

1) The Bush doctrine is pre-emption.
2) Kerry supports the Bush doctrine.


Bush claims his policy is pre-emption because pre-emption is not controversial. Pre-emption is a good thing and always has been. Bush's policy is prevention.

Just because Bush calls his social policies compassionate doesn't make it so, so why do we accept his insane characterization of the Iraq war as pre-emptive?

Pre-emption is attacking someone who is in the process of mounting an attack on you. Prevention is attacking someone who is NOT planning to attack you, but who you fear may someday decide to attack you.

The WH spin is designed to blur the lines between sane people like Kerry and insane people like Bush, and it seems to be working.

Kerry cannot "support Bush's doctrine of pre-emption" because Bush has no such doctrine. There is no "Bush doctrine of pre-emption". Period. None whatsoever.

Reporters often say "bush's doctrine of pre-emption" because they are stupid and/or RW shills. Don't fall for it.

Of course Kerry supports America's doctrine of pre-emption because it's been our national policy as long as we have had a nation. Every nation in the world supports pre-emption. The UN supports it. The Vatican supports it. Desmond Tutu and Dennis Kucinich support it.

It's a right of all nations. Pre-emption is a legitimate form of self-defense and is permitted in the UN charter as such.

Review:

1) Pre-emptive war is legal.
2) The Iraq war was NOT pre-emptive.
3) That's why it was illegal.

[mzmolly]

34. Very informative post. Thanks.

:hi:

[no name no slogan]

36. I would LOVE for Kerry to move to the center

He'd be making a big step to the left by doing so. :evilgrin:

[TexasSissy]

40. Anyone have a link to the current draft of the platform?

[salonghorn70]

42. A Link For You

:hi:

http://www.democrats.org/platform/

[genius]

44. Kerry's attitude is disgusting and so is the platform

I'm voting Democrat but I want to make sure Kerry shapes up when he takes office.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

46. Likewise...

I am going to hold my nose and vote Kerry. It pains me, but to get Bush out is the first step. Pressuring Kerry to address the issues from the LEFT is the next step.


cheers,

TWL

[sandnsea]

47. What a distorted crock

Keep repeating this bullshit, I'll personally thank you when Bush wins again. If it isn't a flame war, I have no idea why you'd choose to distort his views. He said he expected to have a significantly less number of troops in Iraq in 4 years. He supports a woman's right to choose, unequivocally, always has. Any President would attack someone who was prepared to attack us. And the people who delusionally believe there would be peace and harmony in the ME if the Israeli's would just be nice have a pretty obscene stance in my book. I/P is alot more complicated than whether there's a fence or not. Grow up.

[Seven]

48. I'm not voting for president.

Kerry, Nader and Cobb are all unacceptable to me for a variety of reasons and I can't support their candidacies.

Oddly enough if the ticket had been Camejo/Nader..or Edwards/Kerry..I would have strongly considered supporting one or the other.

I probably could have held my noise and voted for Gephardt or Dean also.

Really the only Dems I didn't want to vote for coming out of the primaries were Joe, Clark and Kerry. Unfortunately I got Kerry, and I can't support him.

However, I have been in the odd position of campaigning for him in a sense with some people. When people ask me what I know about the candidates I always try to be honest and I point out that even though I don't think Kerry is any better than Bush on foreign policy, trade and other issues, he is certainly better on the enviornment and abortion..and of course at worst he could provide for gridlock with a Republcian congress assumign it stays in tact.

I do support many Dems in local politics and races, where I think they are generally more progressive and suspectable to preassure for real change from their constiutents. Even at the Senatorial level, I don't have a problem supporting people like Feingold or even Corzine, but I can't bring myself to vote for Kerry.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

49. Cally, I hear you!

I believe an effective Democratic candidate should have the ability to reach out to voters, to convince them of the benefits of traditional Democratic values and to bring them to the party -- to bring them to the mountain, so to speak.

I see too many candidates (Kerry included) moving towards those voters and parroting those voters existing stands/views, as of the candidates are ashamed of what the Democratic party has stood for.

I have cringed at some of what I've heard out of Kerry's mouth recently. I have been told to ignore what he is saying (after all, he is just trying to get elected) and look at his liberal record.

In November, I will be casting a "faith-based" vote for him, but he if gets into office and doesn't move back to his recorded stands, well, my name says it all.

I've given Bush 3+ years for hell for his bullshit.

I will have no problem giving Kerry the same.