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Abacus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:26 AM
Original message
Myers-Briggs, Obama, & Clinton
Edited on Tue May-20-08 11:00 AM by Abacus
Anyone familiar with MBTI personality typing? When I read "Old friends recall Obama's years in LA, NY", Obama seemed to strongly resemble an INFJ type. I think Clinton may be ESFJ or ESTJ, with her fixation on loyalty aligning her more closely with the ESFJ type.

Edit: some votes below for Clinton as I. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISFJ


INFJ

According to Myers-Briggs,<4> INFJs are conscientious and value-driven. They seek meaning in relationships, ideas, and events, with an eye toward better understanding themselves and others. Using their intuitive skills, they develop a clear vision, which they then execute decisively to better the lives of others. Like their INTJ counterparts, INFJs regard problems as opportunities to design and implement creative solutions.


According to Keirsey,<5> INFJ Counselors are quiet, private individuals who prefer to exercise their influence behind the scenes. Intensely interested in the well-being of others, Counselors prefer one-on-one relationships to large groups. Sensitive and complex, they are adept at understanding complicated issues and driven to resolve differences in a cooperative and creative manner.

Accounting for 1–3% of the population,<6> Counselors have a vivid inner life that they may be reluctant to share with those around them. Perceptive of the emotions of others, Counselors are themselves easily hurt, though they may not reveal this except to their closest companions.

INFJs are affable people. They are generally well-liked by their peers and are thought of as close friends and confidants by most other types. Nevertheless, it is difficult for INFJs to let their guard down, which in turn makes it difficult for them to establish close relationships with strangers and new people.

Characteristics described in other sources

Below is a list of basic characteristics:<7>

* sensitive
* quiet leaders
* great depth of personality - intricately and deeply woven, mysterious, and highly complex, sometimes puzzling even to themselves
* introverted
* abstract in communicating
* live in a world of hidden meanings and possibilities - part of an unusually rich inner life
* artistic (having a natural affinity for art), creative, and easily inspired
* very independent
* orderly view toward the world but within themselves arranged in a complex way only they could understand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INFJ


ESFJ

ESFJs' primary mode of living is focused externally, where things are dealt with things according to how you feel about them, or how they fit in with your personal value system. The secondary mode is internal, where things are taken in via the five senses in a more literal and concrete fashion.

ESFJs are people persons - they love people. They are warmly interested in others. They use their Sensing and Judging characteristics to gather specific, detailed information about others, and turn this information into supportive judgments. They want to like people, and have a special skill at bringing out the best in others. They are extremely good at reading others, and understanding their point of view. The ESFJ's strong desire to be liked and for everything to be pleasant makes them highly supportive of others. People like to be around ESFJs, because the ESFJ has a special gift of invariably making people feel good about themselves.

The ESFJ takes their responsibilities very seriously, and is very dependable. They value security and stability, and have a strong focus on the details of life. They see before others do what needs to be done, and do whatever it takes to make sure that it gets done. They enjoy these types of tasks, and are extremely good at them.

ESFJs are warm and energetic. They need approval from others to feel good about themselves. They are hurt by indifference and don't understand unkindness. They are very giving people, who get a lot of their personal satisfaction from the happiness of others. They want to be appreciated for who they are, and what they give. They're very sensitive to others, and freely give practical care. ESFJs are such caring individuals, that they sometimes have a hard time seeing or accepting a difficult truth about someone they care about.

With Extraverted Feeling dominating their personality, ESFJs are focused on reading other people. They have a strong need to be liked, and to be in control. They are extremely good at reading others, and often change their own manner to be more pleasing to whoever they're with at the moment.

The ESFJ's value system is defined externally. They usually have very well-formed ideas about the way things should be, and are not shy about expressing these opinions. However, they weigh their values and morals against the world around them, rather than against an internal value system. They may have a strong moral code, but it is defined by the community that they live in, rather than by any strongly felt internal values.

ESFJs who have had the benefit of being raised and surrounded by a strong value system that is ethical and centered around genuine goodness will most likely be the kindest, most generous souls who will gladly give you the shirt off of their back without a second thought. For these individuals, the selfless quality of their personality type is genuine and pure. ESFJs who have not had the advantage of developing their own values by weighing them against a good external value system may develop very questionable values. In such cases, the ESFJ most often genuinely believes in the integrity of their skewed value system. They have no internal understanding of values to set them straight. In weighing their values against our society, they find plenty of support for whatever moral transgression they wish to justify. This type of ESFJ is a dangerous person indeed. Extraverted Feeling drives them to control and manipulate, and their lack of Intuition prevents them from seeing the big picture. They're usually quite popular and good with people, and good at manipulating them. Unlike their ENFJ cousin, they don't have Intuition to help them understand the real consequences of their actions. They are driven to manipulate others to achieve their own ends, yet they believe that they are following a solid moral code of conduct.

All ESFJs have a natural tendency to want to control their environment. Their dominant function demands structure and organization, and seeks closure. ESFJs are most comfortable with structured environments. They're not likely to enjoy having to do things which involve abstract, theoretical concepts, or impersonal analysis. They do enjoy creating order and structure, and are very good at tasks which require these kinds of skills. ESFJs should be careful about controlling people in their lives who do not wish to be controlled.

ESFJs respect and believe in the laws and rules of authority, and believe that others should do so as well. They're traditional, and prefer to do things in the established way, rather than venturing into unchartered territory. Their need for security drives their ready acceptance and adherence to the policies of the established system. This tendency may cause them to sometimes blindly accept rules without questioning or understanding them.

An ESFJ who has developed in a less than ideal way may be prone to being quite insecure, and focus all of their attention on pleasing others. He or she might also be very controlling, or overly sensitive, imagining bad intentions when there weren't any.

ESFJs incorporate many of the traits that are associated with women in our society. However, male ESFJs will usually not appear feminine at all. On the contrary, ESFJs are typically quite conscious about gender roles and will be most comfortable playing a role that suits their gender in our society. Male ESFJs will be quite masculine (albeit sensitive when you get to know them), and female ESFJs will be very feminine.

ESFJs at their best are warm, sympathetic, helpful, cooperative, tactful, down-to-earth, practical, thorough, consistent, organized, enthusiastic, and energetic. They enjoy tradition and security, and will seek stable lives that are rich in contact with friends and family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESFJ

Here's an online test: http://similarminds.com/jung.html


I'm an INTP; on this test I received the following:
Introverted (I) 78.13%
Intuitive (N) 71.43%
Thinking (T) 65.79%
Perceiving (P) 65.52%
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Sanity Claws Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. I see Hillary as more of an "i" than an "e"
Otherwise, the description sound pretty accurate.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. me too, and vice versa for Obama nt
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. agree
My guess:

Hillary--INTJ
Barack --INFJ


They'd be close in basic personality, IMO.

I think Hill goes more towards following her advisers like a good girl scout--analytical mode always-- consistent with INTJ. (thinking)

Barack is no less analytical but sometimes goes on intuition and understanding the "vibe" more than Hill
--which is more consistent with INFJ. (feeling)

People who like decision making at the highest levels are often "J." (judging)

Since MB is assessed on a relative scale, I think Hill and Barack may both be on the cusp of "E" & "I"--but being intellectuals probably title a little more towards "I." (introvert)
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faithfulcitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
48. absolutely an I, many people are try behave as an E because society rewards being an E more.
I'd say, she's an INTJ. I think Obama is a bit harder to define.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. myers-briggs is a poorly-implemented attempt to operationalize jungian horseshit
Edited on Tue May-20-08 10:44 AM by enki23
in other words, it's hackery, wrapped in quack-psychology, inside a steaming pile of dung. you may as well compare their horoscopes. this serves no rational purpose.
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I think there are more than 16 varieties of people out there. nt
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Abacus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Are you sure?
DU has given me the impression that there are only two.
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Abacus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. And
"GCGAATGCGTCCACAACGCTACAGGTG..." just doesn't have quite the same ring
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BadgerKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Afterall we're a bunch of
SNPs and snails and puppy dog tails.

/INTP :hi:
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Pisces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
49. There are levels of each variation which make up all people. for those who believe it is
quackery, they have never taken the test. There are many other communication and personality tests out there that are less in depth as Meyers-Briggs and they also can pinpoint many things about a people.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. jungian 'horseshit'? Let me guess, anything that isn't based on the purely physical is bullshit.
I feel sorry for your family and friends.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. er... it wouldn't have to be either or. jung could be bullshit, while magic fairies are real
Edited on Tue May-20-08 10:59 AM by enki23
but yes, only the material universe is testably real. and as for my family and friends... we all like each other just fine. we even respect each other enough not to imply that someone who doesn't believe in magic fairies doesn't have caring relationships. but that's because we're mostly not a bunch of clueless assholes, i suppose.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. ENKI from days of old,,,,Aloha..sending beers and cheers
ENFP here...all nuts and eyes roling around
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. heya opihihihi
Edited on Tue May-20-08 11:01 AM by enki23
all's quiet on the northern front. :) just don't count yourself one of my friends, unless you need some crocodile sympathy.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. All fin with your degree?? Jus askin? Still in La?
:toast:
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. finished that one, and moved north for the bigger fish
Edited on Tue May-20-08 11:15 AM by enki23
in a doctoral program now, and up past the other end of the mississippi. i guess i'm educationally bipolar. though truth be told, the actual fish were bigger in LA. not that i eat 'em much either way. how's the island life?
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
53. Life has gotten complicated in my ole age....stuck on altruism and how to promote
Doctorate even? Masters/then PhD? Good for you, wish you well...

Come, we go eat, laugh, vote Blue...
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izquierdista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. Even without it
I could characterize Dubya as a PDLM*.



PDLM = Psychotic Drunken Lazy Moron
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. whatever
it's still used all over the place for career planning...:shrug:

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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. unfortunately for those who use it
Edited on Tue May-20-08 11:44 AM by enki23
it's test-retest reliability is abysmal. it's based on false premises, and was designed by people who had absolutely no experience in psychometric testing. one of the most obvious is the fact that it divides every axis it purports to test into two "types". but there aren't two types. even using their own test questions, people are more or less normally distributed around a mean. that means there aren't two "types" at all. most people are right around the average, with smaller numbers in the tails of the distribution. yet, they draw a line down the middle of the normal distribution and say the two sides are fundamentally different. that means the greatest concentration of people are right on the dividing line of the two types, yet they get split there anyway. if there were actually two types, you'd expect a bimodal distribution. that's not what you get. not even with their own, awful, test.

that's at least part of the reason people retaking the test at different times, even different times of the day, very often get different results. yet, like a horoscope, it mostly spins all the traits in a positive direction, so people settle comfortably into a gentle confirmation bias. and since most people are right around the middle anyway, they can easily see things in themselves that go either way, regardless of the test outcome. just about as bad as reading a horoscope, though it at least *pretends* it's testing people on real answers to real questions, i suppose. not *quite* as bad as a horoscope. just... nearly as unreliable.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. I took it
20 years apart--results exactly the same.

I understand what you're saying. Fair enough. (INTJ aren't you?):)

The test attempts to measure some pretty subtle differences but then it does weight those heavily. Still, it's interesting. I've seen MB help people come to terms with what career path might be best for them. But of course you'd use it in conjunction with other assessments and interest inventories. I think it's helpful in getting younger people to even consider the notion that they might be better suited to one occupation than another. Often they have no idea of their own inclinations and cannot see the problem objectively. I don't understand being so against the test--it doesn't do harm IMO. You obviously think it should be thrown out...dunno, it still has some usefulness.
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Sanity Claws Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
45. Could you please site support for your contention
that people retaking the test "very often get different results," particularly when retaking the test close in time to the second test? I've never heard that and I know my results have been consistent over time.
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Abacus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
50. I've found its retestability fairly reliable...
I first took the test around the age of 14 and came up ENTP, I started coming up INTP in my latter teens and remain so at two months shy of 30. I think ENTP was a misdiagnosis for me, not a change. That said, some changes are more significant than others; the difference between an INTP and an ENTP is in the order of the functions: TiNe versus NeTi -- a minor juxtaposition. However, the difference between an INTP and an INTJ is TiNe versus NiTe -- a significantly different functional definition. The popular quizzes that measure behaviors are perhaps the easiest to design, but the most prone to gross error because they examine parts without the context. It is no secret that the behavior quizzes as a predictor of function order are more likely to be inaccurate when scores occur about the middle.
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BigBluenoser Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
55. Myers-Briggs is snake oil and tends to be only used...
for corporate "feel good" and teamwork training sessions and by consultants. The process of doing the MBTI can be beneficial in a corporate setting in that it gets people talking about how to better work together with different types of people (regardless of what the results actually mean or do not mean.)

As a personality test it worthless as it has no validity (we have no reason to believe it measures what it claims to measure). It has also been shown to be of little use for predicting anything at all.

Take a look at all the different typologies. Notice how cheery each of them are? Kind of happy huh? A bit like a horoscope one could say. It is a feel good exercise.

There are good reasons the Big-5 personality test is used in most personality research and why the MBTI is relegated to Slick Dick the Consultant's Snake Oil Emporium.

Basically it is about as useful as the "what color are you" garbage.

So yeah, I agree. T'is shit.

BTW, I'm an ENTJ :)
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Abacus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. I think he's an INTJ; a TJ of some sort anyway
you won't change his mind.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. i'm a "NIFWI" actually
non-idiot. fairly well informed. it's a good type to be, if you value genuine understanding.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. I'm married to an INTJ
do I ever know that truth!
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
33. Hah well said
Jung was an unscientific whack job. He had some lovely philosophies though. And he did manage to make a great deal of progress towards the general perception that Psychology is not a science.

But here's my personality for today:

Extroverted (E) 52.27% Introverted (I) 47.73%
Intuitive (N) 61.9% Sensing (S) 38.1%
Thinking (T) 62.5% Feeling (F) 37.5%
Perceiving (P) 59.46% Judging (J) 40.54%


Your type is: ENTP
Accuracy: - 5 high 4 3 2 1 low


ENTP - "Inventor". Enthusiastic interest in everything and always sensitive to possibilities. Non-conformist and innovative. 3.2% of the total population.
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woolldog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. Clinton is an I, not an E.
Her husband is an E, or course.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
28. I think you might be onto something there
n/t
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
14. I have the same personality type as Hillary
who would have known. I don't think I should be President either.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
15. The Meyers-Briggs test is bullshit. Thanks, though.
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City of Mills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
46. Because you say so? n/t
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
17. ENTJ here
Extroverted (E) 54.05% Introverted (I) 45.95%
Intuitive (N) 52.94% Sensing (S) 47.06%
Thinking (T) 56.67% Feeling (F) 43.33%
Judging (J) 55.88% Perceiving (P) 44.12%


ENTJ - "Field Marshall". The basic driving force and need is to lead. Tend to seek a position of responsibility and enjoys being an executive. 1.8% of total population.

Funny thing about this: I run my own company.
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
19. INFJs for Obama!
:toast:
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. it would make an interesting study
Edited on Tue May-20-08 12:06 PM by marions ghost
to see how many INFJ's voted for Obama (it takes one to know one...) I'm an INFJ too and I must say I felt an affinity in the headspace...

I'd do this as a poll on DU but all the ENTJ's would gang up and ridicule it....*

:toast:

*(example of a typical INFJ joke)
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. I'm an INFJ for Hillary. :) nt
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. LOL
:toast:
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
27. ENFJ for Obama here
I don't know precisely what that means, but I find it interesting.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
52. Me too!
:toast:
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. although, you know that Reagan was an ENFJ too!
Yikes!
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
29. Hillary is probably an INTJ. She's been typed many times by people
over the years and that is the general consensus. Hillary is a T through and through, and she is almost certainly an introvert. I know she is a J because of her commitment to detail and organization. I believe her to be an abstract thinker, which makes her an N. I have a couple of INTJ's in my life, and there are remarkable similarities between them and her. A good example of a male INTJ is Gore, but female INTJ's are of course a little different. Both Gore and Hillary have had difficulties in connecting with large groups. Both are better in smaller, more intimate settings. Both are also policy wonks, which goes very well with an INTJ personality. If you go back and look at some of the negative descriptions of Gore when he ran in 2000, you'll see a lot of the same criticisms that Hillary gets now.

IMO, Obama is too steady in his emotions to be an F, and I'm almost positive he's not a J by different things he's said. I assume he is an ENTP. I've seen him typed as ENTP and INTP, but I am pretty sure he is an E.

Bill Clinton, by the way is more than likely an ENFP.

http://michaelmelcher.blogspot.com/2007/12/hillary-clinton-misunderstood-intj.html

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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. I agree that Hill
is probably INTJ and now that you mention it, Gore too.

However on the T-F scale I'd put Obama slightly to the F side, just in the way he's run his campaign, at times making the right decisions under stress and time constraints. He's had to rely on his instincts
and that has worked for him. This isn't to say that he doesn't put thought into everything--but when you see that kind of judgment under pressure, I call it listening to intuition (or synthesizing--whatever you want to call that innate knowledge of the right thing to do).

Most lawyers tend to be "J" --not a bad thing, just an ability to make tough decisions and be fairly objective in the face of uncertain outcomes. People who like the world of heavy decisions tend to be "J" so possible for both Hill and Barack. Of course since it's a continuum he might be closer to "P" than Hill. But I don't see Back as strong "P" --ie. the anything goes, take it as it comes sort of personality. Not typical of lawyers. So what things has he said that make you think he's not a J?

Bill, definitely an EN--maybe ENFJ though (politician).
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Obama has said his desk is messy and has mentioned that
he loses things. Those things reminds me of a P. Other than that, I don't have specifics--just a general feeling about his overall personality. But after considering it further, I agree, he could be mild J. I am a mild J, and have some P tendencies, but ultimately I'm a J. Obama could definitely be an ENTJ. I don't see Obama as an F. He describes himself as very calm and someone who doesn't get ruffled when faced with difficult situations. To me, that's a T trait.

As for Bill Clinton, I think Hillary is the organizational part of that relationship. Hillary is a very strong J and almost certainly handles the details and a lot of the tough decisions in their marriage. Bill is so carefree and open-ended as a person that I just don't see him as a J. In reading over ENFP and ENFJ personality types as a whole, I see Bill as an ENFP, although I don't think ENFJ is completely out of the question for him. I've read rumors over the years that Bill took the MBTI and came out ENFP, but those are just rumors. I've also read that a few experts believe Bill is an ESFP, but I disagree with Bill being an S.

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Abacus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Messy Desks
Edited on Tue May-20-08 01:24 PM by Abacus
It is difficult to effectively judge type based on those sorts of individual characteristics. My INTJ father always had whole rooms filled with stacks of things; not because he is inherently disorganized, he just had too much other stuff to do. I think Is and Ns, less fixated on the concrete external environment, are particularly capable of mess as well, regardless of J/P. The most environmentally organized people I have known are an ESFJ and ESTJ; With an I, an N, & a P I am the messiest person I have ever known. Seriously, no contest. If I hadn't gotten married, I'd have ended up an 80 year old hoarder whose home barely had standing room.
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. LOL about your father's stacks of things. I am
married to an INTJ, and he also has stacking issues. It's all kind of organized in its own way, but in big stacks. I have to periodically hold destacking days.

Yeah, I know messiness isn't necessarily a P trait, but coupled with other traits, if a person loses things and is messy, I start leaning toward P. I'm an INFJ, and I have a mild to moderate level of messy, but there is an underlying order to it all. With P's, I haven't found the underlying order to their messiness (if they are indeed messy. I agree that not all P's are). But that's just an observation on the P's I know personally. I agree that IN's are probably more prone to being messy, although the cleanest, most organized person I know is a close friend who is also an INTJ, and she has no stacking issues at all.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. I seem to remember that photo of Gore and his messy desk....
...I'm a J and my desk is messy by most standards (actually it's organized in piles):). I'm not sure that's so definitive. To me P means "taking things as they come, reacting to what's presented rather than imposing or dominating, live & let live..." I think it's possible to be very organized in one's head while not always corralling physical objects tightly.

Obama could be mild F to T. Somehow he just doesn't seem the classic T type--calm and not ruffled he appears to be, but usually T types are not as good when they have to deal with "the irrational" -- and a lot of what happens in politics these days is just that. Check the Rev Wright roller-coaster. Obama seems to have an inner balance on that polarity. He understands a variety of emotions & has empathy (F). John Edwards does too.

It's harmless, this MB stuff. I've seen that it has applications. Nobody's putting any big emphasis on it in a damaging way IMO. We humans don't like to admit that there are certain patterns of behavior that can actually be analyzed and typed. Fear of stereotyping is at the core I guess, but on the other hand why feel the need to be totally unique? We all have things in common.
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. J's love piles and stacks from what I have gathered. LOL
Like I was talking about up thread, there does seem to be an underlying organization with J's, even if they seem messy on the surface. The P's I know just don't seem to have a method to their madness--at least not a method that I have been able to identify. :) That is why I would think P's are more likely to lose things, whereas a J might have things seemingly everywhere, but is able to find things fairly readily.

Obama is difficult to type IMO. He seems T to me, but I see what you're saying about a possible mild F tendency. John Edwards seems F to me all the way, and I have no questions about it. But Obama has several different possibilities--mild T/F, mild J/P. He could be mild E as well. The only thing I can say for sure with him is that he is an N.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. agree
Obama is difficult to type--maybe because he seems so much at the midpoint on the scales as you say. I'd buy that. He may attract a lot of different groups because of this innate balance. I hope this will help him heal & unify this country. We all need that. It will be interesting to see how his personality comes out when he gets to the Oval (I say "when"--I'm an optimist for no logical reason). That job could certainly stress a person...

I'll have to test your J 'piles' theory LOL. It certainly fits the few J's I know but that wouldn't be statistically significant :) I agree the P personality can be happy in total disorganization (ie. a very fluid environment), but they also tend to have empathy and play well with others...
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
30. This INTP says "First off, it's easy to get the score you want. Second,
it's ridiculous to rate someone on your answers for them".

Good day, sir!
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Abacus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Firstly,
Of course. My own examinations went far beyond the simple online test above, but I thought that sort of rigor was beyond the scope of this thread. I debated posting a link to the "test" for the reason you mention, but thought it would ultimately create more "buy-in" and I was curious to see some discussion.

Secondly, ridiculous in what manner? When I speculate on the types of other people, I usually look at the gestalt about which the quizzes are necessarily poor. Even when thinking of the particulars, I prefer to think in terms of the dominant functions -- some of which I comprehend better than others.
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lsusteel Donating Member (178 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
31. INTP here
Describes me perfectly.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
34. The problem with personality typing
such as Myers-Brigss, is that it has the potential for people use the same methodology as racism.

I'm a musician and at one point I was spending a lot of time with the Carribean community. Most were black, most had a good sense of rhythm, most danced well. I could make the case for "black people have rhythm".

Here's the problem. There was no way of predicting the rhythmic aptitude of the next black person walking through the door. We had one black dude who would get drunk, insist upon getting up on stage and doing something he called "dancing" and the rest of us called "get off the fucking stage - moron".

The sixteen classifications of Myers-Briggs, especially hanging names off them can lead to the same abuses. Several of the types mention being "creative". Once labelled with that type, one could easily get told, "oh, you're such-and-such a type so you must be creative that means you must be a really good painter, could you do my portrait?"

Yes, I'm INTX, I'm intensively creative musicially but put me in front of a canvas and a kindergartener's got me beat.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. "creative"
could be associated with being a scientist or a politician. I see Bill Clinton as a creative thinker. It's not a box. It's a mode.

"Creativity" isn't only found in art ... that's a really stereotypical view. And "creative musically" doesn't count as creative? That doesn't make sense at all to me. Nor does your analogy with black people often being talented in dancing or physical skills--how does that relate to Myers Briggs?

I wouldn't worry about this--it's only used as a tool mostly in career planning. It's not used in abusive ways. It's not used to sort people into any categories they don't want to be in.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #34
54. Aw right, ya got me with the X.....and BTW..to see both Enki and you on same thread warms my heart
Its been a long time....

ENFP
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
37. Hillary is a Scorpio, Obama is a Leo
But hey, if we are talking Myers-Briggs:

Hillary: ?? ESTJ = THE ENFORCER


Obama: ?? ENFP = THE VISIONARY
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