Obamatrons! Please understand: YES, I will vote for the eventual nominee, and YES, ON TO DENVER!!!

[smalll]

For one thing, people who say they won't vote for Obama (or won't vote for Hillary) if it comes down to it are being stupid. Both Hillary and Obama are running on the same blah unimaginative moderate-moderate-liberal platform. No great paradigm shift in policy would come from either of them if elected President, but they're both miles better than McCain. It is so crucial that we elect a Democrat this time, especially after two terms of Bush.

So yes, I will vote for Obama, but also, I want Hillary to take this as far as she can - take it to the Convention, give the SuperDs the option of changing their minds three long months from today, preserve our Toricelli Option, keep the right to return the Obama product if it doesn't hold up well over the coming summer.

Some unknown Hillarite put it best in the recent Gene Lyons column that was referenced here on DU yesterday --

"Imagine if Obama had opted to run for vice president with Hillary. McCain would lose, Democrats would come close to 60 Senate seats and pick up 35 in the House. The Democratic left’s need to swoon after eight years of a moron, coupled with unbridled Clinton hatred, will produce a disaster for the party and country.”

A lot of Obama supporters look at Barack and see the Messiah – they see a Savior – they cling to things like a turnout of 75,000 latte liberals in Portland Oregon and dream of a bright new electoral map – visions of Virginia, South Carolina, Louisiana, and empty western states turning blue ----

But a lot of the rest of us look at Obama and see unelectability. We see, with Obama, Democrats snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. We see the new McGovern, gaming the primaries on a thin coalition of blacks, young people, and well-to-do liberals. We want Hillary because Hillary can win!

Some Obamatrons may feel that if we could actually elect their man, it would somehow bring industrial-strength “change” to this country: I just don’t see it. Where’s the policy differences? Where’s Barack’s revolutionary plan for the First Hundred Days? Too many Obamatrons, I think, in their heart of hearts, see Obama’s negatives as positives: he was against flag pins! (Until recently.) He’s black! His middle name’s Hussein! He hangs around with Pastor Wright, Michelle, and Bomber Ayers! He’s our kind of guy!

And these Obamatrons imagine that if we could elect this man, somehow, “the left” wins. Sorry, but no it doesn’t. If by some miracle we could get Barack to 270 in November, all that happens is that a certain well-educated, well-off section of the populace gains some intangible sociological bragging rights, we end up with a moderate Dem President (as we would if Hillary wins) AND we do all this by tearing the soul out of the Democratic Party – by finally once and for all turning our backs on the little guy, the common man, the working classes. Which would be a lot better than ending up with McCain. The looming disaster, however, which approaches, is that we pick Barack and he DOESN’T win.

This swoon you people insist on, this life-stylistic folly you seem hell-bent on pursuing stands to leave our party, our country and its people paying an unbearable price. Hillary and we Hillarites just don’t see the need. So yes, I will vote for Obama, but I am also rooting for Our Girl to take this all the way to Denver: by then maybe, just maybe, enough SuperDs will have come to their senses.

We're not giving up. Hillary's not giving up. She will FIGHT, FIGHT AND FIGHT AGAIN TO SAVE THE PARTY (and country) WE LOVE. At some point, she will earn the nation’s gratitude for her tenacity: I pray this happens before it’s too late.

[Adelante]

1. Good night nt

[Breeze54]

2. "Obamtrons"? What happened to using the word, 'Democrats'?

Or is that now 'old thinking'?

I want any DEM to win the GE but your tripe is obnoxious.

[Skip Intro]

22. Yeah, good thing Obama supporters don't call Hillary supporters names.

I mean, a Hillbot here and monster there. And liar. And repuke. And neocon. And racist. And insane. And traitor. and warmonger, and racist (yeah, that's worth saying twice), and so forth, all of us demons and satan herself having a wild time in Hillaryworld while plotting the destruction of the Democratic party.

Yeah, I see how "Obamtrons" could be deeply offensive. Really. I do. No, really.


:eyes:

[Breeze54]

29. Seeing as how I'm a Kucinich supporter... got a name for me?

:eyes:

And you missed the 'spirit' of my reply.

Let me make it clear:

You that are doing the name calling are not helping to beat McCain aka the RETHUGS!!

You are acting like idiots. (IMHO)

[GarbagemanLB]

3. So give ourselves only 2 months to not only fight McCain but also heal the party.

Yeah, we're screwed if this goes to the convention, and you are ignorant if you think otherwise.

Half of the party is going to be pissed in ANY event. The decision is: do we give ourselves 5 months to heal the party and fight mccain, or only 2?

[Breeze54]

7. Yes, conventions have always pissed people off....

:eyes:

The only people pissed off at the 2004 DEM convention were the anti-war protesters.

[GarbagemanLB]

lol.

[Crunchy Frog]

15. Yeah, that'll show those Obamatrons.

:eyes:

[muryan]

4. People understand shes tenacious

But gratitude? thats a little bit of a stretch

[sfam]

5. Maybe you look and see unelectability 'cause you're planning to fight all the way to the convention.

Just a thought here, but have you ever heard the phrase, "self fulfilling prophesy?" Said another way, who gives a crap if you're planning on voting for the eventually nominee after you've effectively buried them six feet under. This is what happens if we keep up with the ridiculous division through August.

If it comes to that, don't bother doing Obama any favors, as it won't really matter then...

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DJ13]

8. Your loyalty to a woman who has already lost will cost us the Presidency

And dont think the rest of us will forget who to blame when the GOP wins another 4 years as a result.

[splat]

16. Your loyalty is to a man who will cost us our best shot at the presidency

[smalll]

18. Exactamente and Certainment!

:applause:

[DJ13]

20. He won, she lost

Deal with it.

[smalll]

21. In other words, a thin plurality of lemmings opt for the cliff, so get with the progam and JUMP! /nt

[emilyg]

36. Nobody won.

[MercutioATC]

31. If you're willing, we'll start a new thread and go toe-to-toe on this.

I believe that Obama is hugely more electable in the GE.

I'll open with a weak salvo. "Sniper fire". How do you deal with this when running against a perceived war hero?

[murielm99]

26. You are the ones setting up the party for failure.

And like the republicans, you will blame Clinton. Why can't you understand that the reason many of us oppose Obama is that we are certain he can't win?

[PVnRT]

46. Which is the same reason many of us oppose Hillary

You said it yourself - Republicans blame Clinton. They still hate that family, and I can guarentee you they would be whipping up their little brownshirt brigades to bring out the vote against her.

[murielm99]

54. You twisted my words.

The republicans blame the Clintons for everything. They do. They blame them for everything since the Garden of Eden. We used to laugh about it here. Now more than half of the people here argue against the Clintons using republican talking points.

The Obama supporters are getting ready to blame HILLARY Clinton for Obama's LOSS OF THE ELECTION in November. They are setting the Clintons up to take the blame. You know perfectly well that is what I was talking about, and do not twist my words!

Obama supporters are not taking into consideration their own part in the splitting of the party. They have played the race card in order to split off the large African American support that the Clintons have always enjoyed. They have spit in the faces of the baby boomers, the blue collar workers and the older women who have always been the backbone of the party. You cannot win without us. But you will, like republicans, blame Clinton for your own failures when you lose in November.

Stop the hate. People will only be insulted for so long before they get angry and leave the party. They do not owe you anything. Calling them stupid and saying they are voting against their own interests will not win them. There may still be time to mend fences. But you have to do it yourselves. I do not see any attempts at reconciliation by Obama supporters in real life or on this board. The fate of the country and the world may depend on it. Grow up and see that politics are about the art of compromise as much as anything else.

[PVnRT]

56. What?

My point was that the Hillary-hate from the right-wing will turn out the vote against her, even if they don't like McCain. I believe for that reason she isn't electable. I don't know how that translates into "I hate Hillary supporters," but if it makes you feel better to put words in my mouth, whatever.

[emilyg]

35. Accept blame. Be a man.

[K Gardner]

9. Oh for pity's sake. I'll never get those 2 minutes of my life back.

[Terry_M]

10. I would be fine with taking it to Denver

If along the way Hillary didn't try anything she possibly could to destroy Obama. Do you not see what the next 3 months will be like? It's going to be 3 months of McCain attacking Obama, Obama fighting back, and from the other end Hillary saying over and over and over that he is not ready trying to drill that into as many people's heads as possible so that even if Obama comes out winning in Denver, a large chunk of potential democratic voters will lose any enthusiasm they had and not show up to vote.

[GarbagemanLB]

12. No, it has to be decided in June. We need to heal the party, and taking this to August DELAYS THAT.

[splat]

17. The nominee is selected at the convention in August.

[GarbagemanLB]

19. But almost always is known MONTHS in advance.

2 months. That's how long Obama or Hillary would have to get half of the party to get behind them while also going after McCain, who as a 'maverick' will appeal to some of the Democratic voters who are pissed. Or Nader. Or just stay home.

We will lose.

[sfam]

14. Well heck, take it all the way to November then!!!

Why not! It'll be fun!!! Its not like we really care about winning or anything, right?

Who gives a fuck if our sons and daughters continue to die in Iraq, and probably will for years to come. We want our contest to go as long as humanly possible, 'cause its just really fun!!!

[AllentownJake]

11. Listen Hillbot

It isn't up to you. This ends June 3rd. Whether you like it or not.

[2rth2pwr]

37. Heehee.

[AlCzervik]

13. sorry but i'm just not that into you.

you sure sucked up a lot of space to say nothing.

[Thrill]

23. If it goes to the convention. McCain will win. Not enough time to get ready for the GE

[Splinter Cell]

24. Wouldn't it be more simple...

To just come out and say you want McCain to beat us?

[Hippo_Tron]

25. I don't follow your argument that electing Obama is turning our back on the working class

You said it yourself, they are the same on policy, particularly economic policy. I get that the working class preferred Hillary. But they don't have a god given right to pick our nominee for us. As long as Obama will advocate policies that are as beneficial to the working class like Hillary will, I don't see where we are turning our back.

And where you see another McGovern I see a candidate that has endured the Reverand Wright crap from the mainstream media and yet still has a 4 to 5 point lead on McCain with plenty of undecideds to tip the balance either way. It's not like people don't know about Reverand Wright and it's some trump card that McCain will be able to play against Obama in October. People know who he is and frankly there are people that the only thing they know about Obama is Reverand Wright or the rumors they hear that he's a closet Muslim.

Let me put this another way. Obama and Reverand Wright are already scaring the living shit out of some white people that may have considered voting for a Democrat this year. And despite that, Obama is still 4 or 5 points ahead of McGramps with plenty of undecideds who remain undecided despite the fact that they know about Reverand Wright. That means Obama has a chance to win them over by campaigning and we all know that he improves when he campaigns. His convention speech will be worth at least 10 points if not more.

Wright and Ayers will be wonderful tools for McGramps to turn out scared white people and the GOP faithful. But that's not going to win him the election. He has to give those undecideds a compelling reason to not vote for Obama and if Ayers and Wright were that compelling reason, McGramps would be 10 points ahead right now. Maybe there's something else damaging that we don't know about Obama but I don't think so. If anything, McGramps' negatives will go up when Obama starts hammering him on Keating Five and Pastor Hagee.

[AndyTiedye]

27. So If We Go With Obama It's a Replay of '72, If We Go With Hillary It's a Replay of '84

The common denominator is a divided party. Divided we're toast.

[quaker bill]

42. Perhaps a replay of 1984

but also a replay of 2004. Same map, same credentials, same approach. It is "electability".

"Electability" is a curious concept. It relies on voting for the person that you are convinced the majority of other voters will be more likely to support. This notion has resulted in multiple failed candidates in sequence. The faulty premise, and you can see it all over the OP, is the notion that voting decisions are made rationally. Now if this actually were the case, George W. Bush would only have gotten into the Whitehouse on a visitors pass during a tour. Voting decisions on the large are not made rationally, they are made empathically.

The ability to inspire is the only calling card that matters in this. The best resume in the world will only get you to 47 percent. Only the ability to inspire will get you above 50.

[AndyTiedye]

57. Do you think we would have done better in 2004 with Howard Dean?

Would he have somehow been able to fight back against the Swift Boat Liars or the election thieves?
I doubt it, considering how the Mighty Slime Machine was able to sink his candidacy over "The Scream".
Didn't see much fighting-back then. From front-runner to also-ran within a week.

What IS "the ability to inspire"?

Everybody found Dean really inspiring until "The Scream" happened. After that, nobody felt inspired to vote for him.

A lot of us found George McGovern really inspiring back in 1972. It wasn't enough to beat the Nixon machine.

You imply that there is something inspiring about Dubya. All he inspires in me is :puke:

McCain reminds me of the really old and decrepit vampires climbing out of their coffins in the next-to-final scene of "The Hunger".

Unfortunately, the chorus of Repiglickin' media pundits singing their praises in perfect harmony seems to inspire some people. :(

[Lucky 13]

28. See you in Denver.

[casus belli]

30. Hey Jerk! We are glad.

I mean, since we're starting off all our sentences with insults.

[palindrome]

32. well spoken. k&r

[smalll]

33. Mercy buck-ups!

:hi:

[The River]

34. How You Escaped My Ignore List

escapes me.
All fixed now

[2rth2pwr]

38. If I'm not already, put me on ignore please. Thank you in advance for your prompt action.

[gaspee]

40. Make sure to put me on it too

Any moron who needs to ignore anyone with a different point of view than their own should make SURE to put me on ignore.

[smiley_glad_hands]

39. Why do we still have to put up with this shit? eom

[maddiejoan]

41. amazing post

and rec'd.


Thanks for speaking my mind as well.

[zulchzulu]

43. "like a turnout of 75,000 latte liberals in Portland Oregon"

This kind of assheaded stereotyping is fucking Repiglified dogma. The same with the assheaded "Obamatrons" meme.

Maybe you need to leave the Democratic Party with Your Girl.

:puke:

[WeDidIt]

44. "Take It To The Convention" = CERTAIN LOSS

EVERY TIME a party "took it to the convention in the past 40 years, THAT PARTY LOST!!!!

So what you are saying is you want John McCain for president.

[PVnRT]

45. It's all those damn lefties! Stoopid commies!

It used to be that only a few individuals on DU actually held that opinion around here. I'm getting sick and tired of the attitude that blacks and liberals who aren't members of the working poor are expected to just shut up and get in line while the DLC keeps shifting the party rightward. Fuck you. If that's what you want from this party, count me out.

Oh, and take your "Obamatron" horseshit and blow it out your ass. Shouldn't you be bitching about how the damn young people these days aren't getting off your lawn?

[cali]

47. Grab a clue. Hillary is toast. It's fork time.

The writing on the wall is clear and you are so wrapped up in hillary adulation you can't see it. It's sad. Were Obama in her position, I would already have switched to Hillary.

[roseBudd]

48. Your use of the latte liberal slur, which is GOP playbook shows you have no soul

Clinton's negatives are higher than Obama's, her husband ruined their brand. She will never step from behind that shadow.

Her own big mouth sunk her in the honesty dept. with Snipergate.

[jefferson_dem]

49. TRANSLATION: I will vote for the nominee after I work to destroy him...and the party itself.

Rejected.

[greguganus]

50. Thank you for your vote, Hillbutt. n/t

[IsItJustMe]

51. Questionable intelligence.

[Butch350]

52. Your Full of Shite...

I am an Obama supporter and don't speak for me, and you can take the Messiah and Savior shite and stick it up your wazoo.

I see Barack as a viable, intelligent candidate for the POTUS. I will not ever vote for any candidate now are in the future
with the last name Clinton, EVER! If individuals won't vote for a candidate because of his color then we'll just have to
suffer through McCain for 4 to 8 years.

So Hillary can FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT all the Fu** she wants.

HERE IS MY FORECAST! She will not be THE PRESIDENT of anything YOU GOP TROLL! And I will never vote for HRC! Period!

GFYS!!

[smalll]

53. Kick for the daytime crowd. /nt

[saracat]

55. Kick and rec!