Amidst the angst, where are my sisters?

[Number23]

I live on the other side of the world, but I have been riveted by this election. This is the reason why after several years of reading DU, I finally got an account a few months ago.

I have watched the videos of protesters at the Rules Committee meeting and I have seen the angst and the anguish of many white women who have participated and who now feel disenchanted by the entire process. It's really quite sad.

But what I want to know is, how do the black women on DU feel about this? What are your thoughts on this entire process? Are many of you hurt, bewildered and angry as some white women (at least the ones shown over and over on tv) appear to be, are you more disengaged from the process, or are you gleeful that things seemed to have turned out for Obama's benefit? Are you torn by the whole black/woman thing as some folks have alluded that we are supposed to be?

This is open to everyone, but I live in a country where I can count the number of black women I see in a week on one hand, so I'd really like to hear from the DU Sisters. I know there aren't very many but I'd love to hear your thoughts on all of this.

[MadMaddie]

1. As a Black American woman.....the whole Democratic process

of 2008 has been quite fascinating.

I voted for Hillary in the WA caucus and had great hopes for her campaign. However; (my chosen profession is that of an IT Project man gager) my thought process of organization and mitigation keeps rearing it's head when I think of Hillary's campaign.

1. Her campaign assumed they were the winners before Super Tuesday occurred so they didn't plan on a long withdrawn process.
2. Due to the failing in #1 they had not long term money raising plan. They assumed all of their money would come from big donors not the little guy.
3. Hillary not once but many times has voiced out-loud that McCain would be a better President than Obama.
4. Hillary jumped on the bandwagon of the Repugs way too many times, Pastor Wright, Michelle Obama and the list goes on.
5. The people that Hillary surrounded herself with left much to be desired.


There are more but I don't want this to be too long.

The point is Hillary has had many opportunities to take the upper road and she didn't.

I don't support Obama because he is black:
1. I am supporting him because of the two candidates Obama ran the better campaign,
2. Obama has been able to respond on a dime when required.
3. He has surrounded himself with a bright staff.
4. Finally, of the two candidates I think he can pull the party together.

Thanks for asking it's a great question.

[Number23]

3. Thanks for answering

It's a great answer! :o

I asked because I saw Donna Brazille's comments about "playing by the rules" and I know that she has spoken about people trying to put her in one box or the other because of her gender/sex and how she has been opposed to that. I completely agree with her.

Hillary not once but many times has voiced out-loud that McCain would be a better President than Obama.

I can only speak for the one time I saw her do it but it was bad. When she made the comment about Obama having made a speech as if that was the only thing he'd ever done. It definitely made me stop and pause.

The thing is, until recently, I really liked Hillary. I thought she was brilliant and capable. But then she morphed into this... THING that I just can't help but shake my head at when I see her now. But it annoys me to no end that there are many people, including professed Democrats and "progressives," who will decide that because I am melanin-rich, that will be the primary reason I'm supporting Obama.

MadMaddie, do you know that until about 3 months ago, I was perfectly happy to have EITHER as the candidate?? That's how much I liked both of them and thought that the Dems were good as gold this year with two top-quality candidates on the ballot. And then the better Obama started to do, the more he started winning, the more Hillary started to show her @ss. It was a sad sight to see.

[KaryninMiami]

33. There are a lot of us who were huge Hillary fans at the beginning- she is brilliant.

And as you said, she is also very capable. I remember hearing her at an event 3 years ago. She spoke for over an hour and it appeared that she was totally ad libbing- there was no telepromter, she had no script. She told stories about family trips to Florida, she was funny and warm. She eloquently managed to weave serious topics (lack of security in our ports, health care, Iraq, etc.) with charming personal antidotes. I was enthralled- I remember feeling chills during her standing ovation. I also remember looking around the room and at my table and realizing how many women were thinking the same thing that I was thinking- the fact that were all very possibly looking at our next President-- it was thrilling.

The last thing any of us expected (or wanted) was the way things unfolded. But once it all started unraveling things just got really ugly. We began to notice some very disturbing and frankly, surprising traits in just after Super Tuesday- about Hillary and about her horribly run campaign. We also saw new traits in her husband- who should have been a HUGE asset to her campaign-for goodness sake- he's Bill Clinton--- a rock star- (or was a rock star.) It's like something snapped for them- perhaps it was a combination of the shock and disbelief- I mean after all- EVERYONE assumed she would be the nominee. Who would have imagined that someone would show up out of nowhere and simply change the course of history (her-story)?

Disbelief turned into desperation as reality started to set that it really might happen that she might not win the nomination. Then it just snowballed as the days and weeks dragged on- her fans got more and more angry (and hysterical), her campaign team went into "Denial Spin" and more mistakes started to be made from the RFK comments, to the screaming about counting every vote and comparing the FL primary to the nightmare of 2000- complete denial of reality (and a serious memory lapse about agreeing that neither state would count once they broke the rules). She just became this totally different person- or perhaps (and this is the part I'm still not sure about)- we just never say Hillary-- or Bill Clinton as they really were. I still wonder if I idolized them so much I totally overlooked - or didn't see who they really are.

I switched to Obama once Edwards dropped out. I would have been fine with either of them. I'm thrilled now about Obama- I see in him qualities I haven't seen in a candidate in a very long time. He's brilliant, articulate, progressive, compassionate- and most of all- he is a leader. He has the ability to inspire people to pay attention- to motivate people to consider becoming actively involved in things- look how many people have registered to vote and how his campaign contributions are coming in- donations averaging $28-- breaking all historical records. Plus he's surrounded (and supported) by wonderful people like Dascle, Richardson, Kennedy, Bonier (who was wonderful today) and of course, my favorite Robert Wexler (who was FABULOUS today).

We women have a big job ahead. We need to work together to inspire the many women now threatening not to vote or to vote for McCain if Obama gets the nomination. The idea that any of them would even consider the possibility of voting for McCain is beyond horrifying. Not voting is just as bad - since that's also like voting for him. Some serious "party healing" is going to be needed in a very big way and it needs to come from within - as well as from our party leaders. Beating McCain is not going to be easy- and we need everyone on board if we are going to make it happen.

Good thing there are an equal number - (maybe more) of women of all ages and races, in many different locations, who are ready and willing, with open arms to welcome them back.

We can do this- YES WE CAN!

[Number23]

52. Yep

I still wonder if I idolized them so much I totally overlooked - or didn't see who they really are.

Thanks, Karyn. I think there are probably a few million people wondering the same thing right about now.

The idea that any of them would even consider the possibility of voting for McCain is beyond horrifying.

I agree, but what can be done? Their anger is so far-flug and aimed at everything from Obama to the media to the Democratic party. They feel completely victimized and disenchanted. And it's difficult for people who feel that way to see that they may be engaging in some fairly destructive behavior as a result.

[PretzelWarrior]

54. I remember reading stories about their yelling matches

in front of staffers. She could get really mad at Bill. But you just think that's part of the tough job that only huge egos can take on....

but it's been sad. I thought she was on the way to a pretty graceful exit about 2 months ago. Then she just kicked it into this new nasty gear as she accelerates to 90mph toward a big brick wall.

[KaryninMiami]

61. It's true- the anger issue is a problem that we all need to help diffuse

I imagine there are some that are just so angry, there's nothing we can do- they will lock themselves into their angry dark boxes and not allow any light in. Look- I know what it's like to feel cheated and victimized and that votes were stolen from us- that's exactly how I felt in 2000 (I'm in Florida so it was even more horrible for us), then when they stole it again in 2004 the wounds were re-opened- it's a deep hurt that frankly, for me, has never been healed. But, it doesn't stop me from being involved again and hoping (praying) that this time, our votes will count and we will take our government back from the criminals currently in charge. We HAVE to move forward and hopefully, with our guidance, compassion and support- and gentle reminders about how Obama and Hillary are identical on most issues- certainly on the issues progressives and feminists care most about- and how voting for McSame is a continuation of the Bush nightmare, we can shift most of them back and help them start to let the light back in.

Remember also there are many fabulous women supporting him- feminists, activists, political women, thought leaders-Caroline Kennedy, Naomi Wolf, Toni Morrison, Kate Michelman, Jane Fonda, Susan Sarandon, Joan Baez, Gov. Sebelius, Alice Walker, Maria Shriver, Barbara Ehrenreich, Oprah and soon- hopefully- Hillary Clinton-- not to mention pro-women organizations and union-- I truly believe many of these women will, after taking some time to get over their disappointment, sway back in our direction.

We can do this- Yes We Can.

[Number23]

63. I certainly hope so

I truly believe many of these women will, after taking some time to get over their disappointment, sway back in our direction.

The videos I've seen show a group of women who are hurting, and we all know how people respond when they are hurting. So that video of the woman calling Barack an "inadequate black male" I can only hope is just an isolated emotion, but who knows? Maybe she has always had these feelings about blacks, but I feel that some of these women feel so violated that this could be THE thing that kicks them over to the "R" side of the ballot where they may feel more at home with their prejudices. If that's the case, then so be it.

And Obama does have a great list of very strong women backing him. Don't know if that will make a very big difference to the Disappointed Hillary Supporters but it makes a difference to me.

[Tatiana]

9. Co-sign to this.

I would just add that with an Obama administration, we will likely get Edwards, Biden, Richardson and the competent candidates we liked in the primaries anyway.

I am satisfied with today's resolutions.

Alexis Herman kicked ass and showed why she has deserved all of her positions of leadership.

[goclark]

37. I co - sign to this too my sister

One of the issues that continues to annoy me is that African American WOMEN are not included in the thought process of the Media and HC.

When they refer to the WOMEN's VOTE for HC, they are not speaking about us ~ that steams me.

If they truly cared about WOMEN than they would embrace us but they don't.

I was so proud of Alexis Herman and Donna Brazille today!

In fact I was proud or all the women and men that spoke truth to power in the Meeting today.

:patriot:

[cyndensco]

40. Actually, early on we were "highlighted" in the press.

Remember when the race was close (just starting)? The question of the day was who will the black women vote for - the black man or white woman? Bill Maher, among others, did pieces on it.

[Tatiana]

44. Well, at that time black women (especially professionals like my older sister) were for Hillary

Plus the older black women (like my grandma) were in the Clinton camp.

But as Obama began to roll out his campaign and positions in earnest and the Clinton campaign decided they could afford to sacrifice the African-American vote in favor of voters who would never vote for a black man... well, what is a woman of color to do?

NONE of the women in my family, both African-American and latina are supporting Clinton now. Too bad most voted for her on Super Tuesday, but better learn the truth later than never.

[goclark]

58. Then they put us all in the same basket

Now we are just African Americans for Obama.

And they also say that we are forcing our fellow African Americans to vote for Obama.

I don't know about any other AA but I have not "forced" r even encouraged others to vote for Obama.

Have you?


They just are drawn to him.

The funny part is ~ he has promised our race nothing that I have heard.

I just want him to win because I love "the content of his character" and so many other qualities that I admire.

[cyndensco]

60. I personally know only 2 of us not supporting Obama.

One, a female lawyer, was solidly behind Clinton, but within the last week has recognized the race is over. She and I have had interesting, respectful conversations and no, I never encouraged her, nor she me. The other, a 45-ish year old male security guard, hates Obama. The whole muslim thing. I don't waste my time on him though his viewpoint(s) amuse me. :)

I think it is healthy that not all of us are on the same page. (Though, I must admit I wonder, after all that has happened, how we are not).

And you're right, Obama has promised us nothing. He doesn't have to (and actually couldn't have). I do not see much changing for us as a race except having a POS who we can be truly proud of. Go Obama! :hi:

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

18. I feel EXACTLY how you feel !

I co-sign completely.

[Doityourself]

67. As black female...you summed it up for me!

I don't support Obama because he is black:
1. I am supporting him because of the two candidates Obama ran the better campaign,
2. Obama has been able to respond on a dime when required.
3. He has surrounded himself with a bright staff.
4. Finally, of the two candidates I think he can pull the party together.

[FrenchieCat]

2. I love all of my sisters, Black and White.

In particular, I love my Obama supporting folks the most.

Where do you live, on the other side of the world?

[Number23]

4. Down Under n/t

[Tatiana]

11. Frenchie we are all gonna have to meet up and celebrate come Victory Day.

Seriously.

[FrenchieCat]

22. Yep! Hopefully in washington DC!

:hi:

[Tatiana]

23. We're getting closer...

:hi:

[Heather MC]

49. Are you in DC?

[Adelante]

27. All of your sisters love you, too

:hug:

[PretzelWarrior]

5. AWESOME THREAD. this question was mentioned by Taibbi or someone else

in the media recently--that we're not hearing enough about how black women around America feel about all of this.

THANKS for the perspective.

[Number23]

12. Happy to help!

Plus I'd like to know myself. ;) Talking to friends and family back home gives me a good perspective, but I'm very curious how other sisters are feeling about all of this.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

6. Checking in here!

Amid all the wrangling about (white) women not being treated fairly or black (men) not treated fairly, black women ought to be pissed off for being ignored and exploited by both race and gender. This discussion was not held and our voices, as always, were muted. We were asked to take sides, not even given credence to the fact that not all of us are even Democrats. Some of us are Independents and some are even Republicans. But still the media framed this election as either/or. It's ridiculous.

These are my thoughts. The entire process is appalling.

[Number23]

17. Excellent point

We were asked to take sides, not even given credence to the fact that not all of us are even Democrats.

Don't you know that we are interchangeable, indistinguishable, and not to mention completely dispensable?? ;-)

I'm an independent myself so I know exactly how you feel. There has been so much attention given to white women, and that's understandable because many have been VERY passionate and vocal of their support of Sen. Clinton. So I get why much of the attention went there, but it's certainly very telling that the media actually talks about the "black" vote and the "female" vote without seeming to have the faintest clue that in many cases, those two things are not mutually exclusive.

[Heather MC]

51. When I first Heard a black man named Barack Obama was...

going to make a run for the presidency, I laughed and laughed, and I thought, he can kiss it good bye everybody knows Hillary is taking the White House this year.

And because of that assumption, I didn't even bother to pay any attention to the elections until the day of the primaries in my state. I am in VA, and the was the day Hillbilly declared that the only state that mattered was Texas. That was the big state to win, and she camped her butt down in Texas, and began denouncing Obama's incredible 11 state win. And the press at that time and still today, repeated everything she said.

I decided that on issues Barack and Hillary were very similar so I had to make my decision of who would get my support based on other things. I decided I would base my decision based on who ran the better campaign. And it was clear hands down the winner was and is Barack Obama.

I came to the conclusion, if she a wealthy woman, can't manage the funds of her campaign, how on earth would she be able to handle the funds of the entire country. I found her reckless careless nature with money to be quite frightening. Having worked in the Financial industry for many years, I have seen lots of people piss away their money for the dumbest of things. And to know that she started the campaign with 118 million, and by Feb 5th she was loaning her campaign money, well it was unnerving to say the least.

Well, that was all the proof I needed to know Obama was the Democrat I was going to support with my vote and money. The bible says to sow your seed in fertile ground. In this campaign, you can not get more fertile than Barack Obama.

Wow, I say all that to say this it's clear I am voting for Barack because he is Biracial
Like my kids!!!

[PretzelWarrior]

7. THIS THREAD DESERVES REC'D!!!

and kicked. Done and done.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[woolldog]

10. I'm amazed at the sense of entitlement

emanating from Hillary's older white female voters. They feel as if it is owed to her. The attitude is revealing some really ugly attitudes.

[janx]

14. Please don't make assumptions.

Question everything.

[woolldog]

19. I'm not assuming; I'm observing. n/t

[NotThisTime]

28. Not all of them, don't worry, plenty of women checked in for Obama above the age of 50!

As a woman? Personally, I say the rules are the rules & if they lost their entire delegations because they moved their primary up, well, they broke the rules.

But that would be me, that is how I am with my children, but I understand this is an election that all of a sudden has taken a turn in the road, so they had to do SOMETHING to seat the delegations... I get it....

Obama always does better he campaigns in, ALWAYS... well, he didn't get to campaign in Michigan or Florida, so how would he have done? Who knows, we'll never know. Personally, Michigan should have gone 50/50, but they went 69/59 delegates, probably since Levin threatened with bringing it to Credentials if they didn't...

Both got their entire delegations seated at 50%, okay, I get it, they had to change the rule mid stream. Should they have? No, they shouldn't have. They should have made a decision early on and stuck with it, but they couldn't... so, based on that, I think they did fine... as a woman am I upset? No, not at all, and I'm a white woman.

And, as a matter of reference we come to your country fairly often :)

[ampad]

13. Checking in

I'm accustomed to not being counted in the woman category so that is not an issue for me. No, I am not as angry as some white women are. I feel this process has brought out quite a few hidden feelings towards AA and frankly I'm happy to see the true face of some people who call themselves liberals. All in all I'm ready for this phrase to be over with. My hubby is in the military and I'm a little worried about the McCain factor. I would like to get the GE going already.

[cyndensco]

39. "I'm accustomed to not being counted in the woman category.."

What does that mean, ampad? :)

[ampad]

41. Oh sorry let me clarify

I've noticed that the MSM puts black women and women in two separate categories. When they say Obama's AA support they lump all AA in that category no matter the gender. When they talk about "women" I notice they say white women. They make if very clear that when they speak of women they mean white women.

I don't want to get into the media portrayal of black women, feminism and beauty but that has something to do with it as well. That is for a different thread in a different forum. I hope I was able to clarify what I meant for you.:)

[cyndensco]

47. Oh, you were talking in general terms.

I got ya. Just slow tonight, I guess.

[Number23]

53. I know

I'm accustomed to not being counted in the woman category

That's so damn SAD, isn't it?? And the fact that we actually get accustomed to it is even worse....

[ruby slippers]

15. where is the angst among our whole entire country that we have not

overcome racism in the year 2008 and we have white women to thank for it?

[Number23]

24. Hi Ruby

where is the angst among our whole entire country that we have not overcome racism in the year 2008 and we have white women to thank for it?

Can you elaborate just a bit? What specifically has happened to prompt you to say this?

[JustAnotherGen]

16. I'm checking in as a bi-racial woman

White/Black and touch of Cherokee Indian thrown in there.

To me - it is what it is.

I know this may be hard for some to understand - but a BI-RACIAL person is up there. *GULP* Never again will I have to hear that snotty comment questioning my mother and father's judgment because "Whaaaaat about the children???"

One of those children, regardless of his gender - proved we aren't weak misfit foundlings.

There - I put it out there. And several other black/white people of both genders that I've spoken to/know IRL have expressed the same thing.

Stop thinking of him as black, regardless of the archaic laws on our books - think of him as bi-racial. That's unity.

[PretzelWarrior]

20. that is so cool. I mean, that is MORE important than

him being African American. He will excel largely because he's had to do so much analysis of who he is...what "tribes" he's a part of, how he fits in to the larger world.....and most civilizations have looked with scorn on "half breeds" etc.

It is terrific point you bring up.

[JustAnotherGen]

25. I really truly believe

That a large part of my success in the business world (I work in Telecom in an international 'area') is because I CAN relate to so many people. I also think he's tough as nails. Don't get me wrong. I was a huge supporter of Edwards. Huge. But this guy? He's tough as nails and he gets people. And if he doesn't, I think he'll try. He's had to all of his life. I don't think that tiger is going to change his stripes at his age. :wink: And finally, he LIKES women. He RESPECTS women. It's obvious. The charges of sexism - eh? Hmmm . . . I don't buy it. That man likes women.

[Number23]

29. So true

He RESPECTS women. It's obvious. The charges of sexism - eh? Hmmm . . . I don't buy it.

I'm right there with you on that point. Obama has not done one d@mn thing to make me think that he is a sexist. So Feraro et al who like to throw that term around in an attempt to dismiss or minimize his success are just making themselves look foolish in an attempt to play everyone else as a fool.

And as for your comments that Barack is a bi-racial man, I understand that too, but he has described HIMSELF as a black man. I sympathize. My daughter has a black mama and a gorgeous white father. We will consider her bi-racial, mixed or whatever, but when the time comes and she wants to identify herself as one or the other based on her experiences, I can't see my husband or I TELLING her what she is.

[eridani]

34. What Ferraro and others are doing is blaming media sexism on Obama

--whihc is ridiculous. Media sexism existed long before 2008, and won't go away after the election just because we want it to.

[Writer]

38. What do you think about sexism in the general public?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

21. AMEN!! Hats off to you. Something to think about for sure! n/t

[WatchWhatISay]

26. I've always wondered why he is defined that way

Is it the one drop of black blood thing?

[MadMaddie]

31. Yes - unfortunately that train of thinking is still prevelent....

well and the obvious his skin is dark. This goes all the way back to slavery.....people get upset with the topic but a lot of the poison from that era still impacts America today.

[fortyfeetunder]

30. I second your comment.

When I heard that woman screech "inadequate black man" in reference to Obama, I thought, did she have a clue he is bi-racial? What about his maternal heritage?

Oh, I get it, she probably ascribes to the one-drop theory....

The only good thing that came out of this primary season is confirmation the USA still has a long ways to go for resolving its racist heritage.

[BlooInBloo]

32. :) Glad to be the 5th rec.

[otohara]

45. Most Excellent Post

[papapi]

46. K&R! Mostly informative and insightful. (excepting disruptors)

[cyndensco]

35. I started out firmly against clinton. I thought we needed a change.

I watched Obama's Jan. 2007 announcement and was drawn to him after c-span ran an interview he had done prior to the war. Not only was he against it, he talked about how the Shia, Sunni, and Kurds would fare as a result. He seemed thoughtful, but I did not think he stood a chance. This WAS America.

I was amazed at the results in Iowa. With each passing primary it seemed perhaps I was wrong and things weren't as bad as I had thought. I saw Michelle in Milwaukee when she made her "first time she was really proud to be an American" statement. I knew immediately that it could be a problem, but I totally agreed with her. I felt the same exact way.

Recently, though, things have not been sitting right with me. Hillary's mention of RFK to "justify the June primary time-line" bothered me. Also, I am horrified by the women I hear claim they have voted democratic all their lives but will write in hillary's name or vote mccain. Certainly their candidates did not always become the nominee but they managed to vote their party. For some reason, they do not plan to do it this cycle? :shrug: That bothers me.... But, this IS America.

[Number23]

55. Girl

I knew immediately that it could be a problem, but I totally agreed with her. I felt the same exact way.

You and about 10 MILLION other people....

[JeffR]

36. A belated welcome to DU.

And thanks for an interesting thread. Now, as a guy, I'll butt out and let the conversation continue.

[angee_is_mad]

42. Feminism is a bad word now

and we wonder why the younger generation of women refuse to call themselves feminists even if they agree with the feminist ideology.

I am a PROUD BLACK WOMAN who has seen injustice and discrimination and has had it directed at me. But, I refuse to play the victim card when things do not go my way.

How can you be a victim when everything you have came from a man. If there wasn't a bill, I feel very confident that there would not be a Senator Clinton. If there wasn't a Senator Clinton, there wouldn't be a hillary clinton for President. Just keeping it REAL!

[OzarkDem]

48. Limbaugh and Obama supporters agree

Feminism is bad. Sexism is good.

[PretzelWarrior]

50. you're retarded

and I'd even say that if you were a guy

[TBF]

43. White sister here - giving a kick so you can find more :)

[SaveAmerica]

56. This is a most excellent read, thanks for the discussion. Several of the

responses could go as their own posts to highlight how many have viewed this primary season (especially the response about all the black/latina ex Hillary supporters who are no longer with her - I'm hearing that in the black community in my area. Is that making it into the news? NOPE). Thanks for starting it and Welcome to DU.

[Number23]

65. Ex-supporters

Especially the response about all the black/latina ex Hillary supporters who are no longer with her - I'm hearing that in the black community in my area.

If that ever does make it to your local paper, please share the link. That'd be a hell of a read, if only for the fact that it would probably be the only news outlet in the entire U.S. that has given a thought to how minority females are reacting to this election season.

[fight4my3sons]

57. morning kick for you, my friend

:hi:

Love reading through this thread. Happy to recommend. Hope you get some more responses.

[Number23]

64. Thanks for that

Love reading through this thread.

I have too! I've now learned the names of at least 5 more DUers that I will look for more in the future thanks to their interesting and very insightful comments here.

[FlaGranny]

59. K & R n/t

[fortyfeetunder]

62. Sad and not surprised

The behaviors I've seen in this campaign are not unlike I see every day. And it's not just the under $50K types either. The sense of entitlement is smothering.

Particularly troubling were the insinuations from the Clinton campaign: "catastrophic", "shame on you" "assassination", "as far as I know", to name a few. These words were not necessary in any election.

I am speechless today but maybe a few days from DU (coming soon) will give me new perspective.

[Erin Elizabeth]

66. A great article..

http://www.newsweek.com/id/138514