Clinton Newly Defiant Against Her Own Party Leaders

[K Gardner]

Defiant Against Her Own Party Leaders



SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) — Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton, newly defiant against her own party leaders, sought a victory Sunday in Puerto Rico's presidential primary that would give her a toehold on an increasingly slippery path to the nomination. The island territory, once a political asterisk in presidential contests, stood as Clinton's last best electoral chance. She, former President Clinton and their daughter Chelsea have spent a combined 15 days in the commonwealth hoping to keep her relevant in the contest.

Sunday's vote follows the decision Saturday by a panel of the Democratic National Committee to give each Michigan and Florida delegate a half vote at this summer's convention. It was a compromise that did no harm to Obama's near claim to the nomination but infuriated the Clinton camp and prompted new threats to carry the fight to the August convention.

"This decision violates the bedrock principles of our democracy and our party," the Clinton campaign said in a joint statement from Harold Ickes and Tina Flournoy, two of her advisers.

In a sign that her supporters were unwilling to give up, an outside group financed by her labor backers bought $150,000 worth of television ads on the island promoting her views.

The group, the American Leadership Project, was also spending $300,000 on ads in Tuesday's primary states of Montana and South Dakota, states where Obama is deemed the favorite. Clinton planned to campaign in South Dakota Monday.

<snip>

Hillary is going nowhere. She will not leave the stage on her own, nor will she leave gracefully. The divisive and hyperbolic language they are using (hijack, violates principles of democracy, disenfranchising 600,000 etc) guarantees that in whatever manner she exits she leaves behind a scorched and gaping hole in the party she claims to represent.

[LaurenG]

1. Well she is a fighter alright a dirty fighter

I've noticed the same thing out of the Hillary "McCain crowd." Nasty people, yikes. :scared:

[K Gardner]

7. Watching the angry mob yesterday was like seeing a book made into film... we've

seen them 'here' for months. We knew how nasty and violent they were. Yesterday, they jumped off the internet and into our living rooms.

It felt like a Stephen King moment to me.

[GoesTo11]

27. The silly mob reminded me of Bush's Florida protesters

[K Gardner]

31. Yup.. and when I watched Recount last week I knew that's what it would look like.

[mac2]

34. The Florida Republican protestors were trying to stop the vote.

The people at the DNC committee protest were trying to get theirs counted. See the difference?

[Labors of Hercules]

45. Correction: The protesters were trying to get votes for Hillary counted.

See the similarity?

[mac2]

51. Now you are a mind reader?

[Labors of Hercules]

67. I don't have to be. Their arguments were to "count all the votes"...

but not those who stayed away because it didn't count, or those who wanted to vote for Obama but couldn't because his name wasn't on the ballot, or those who would have changed their vote to Obama had BOTH of them had campaigned.

Both elections were flawed and biased in favor of Clinton, so counting "all the actual votes" is simply wrong, and noone who really gives a shit about the rights of voters would suggest otherwise.

[mac2]

70. A stolen primary before the convention even occurs.

This was all planned ahead of time. I don't think Obama could have won it the usual way.

[Labors of Hercules]

71. it would have been a 1/2 sanction regardless.

and all indications are that he would have gotten more delegates had it gone "the usual way".

[stillcool]

77. that is just rich...

the decision was made in June of 2007 to strip Florida of it's delegates, and now you blame it on Obama. Jeezz...the guy won. But then come November when some people's votes are not counted, they can only blame themselves..just like Florida and Michigan.

[stillcool]

76. that is the real problem...

conflating the two issues, cheapens the argument for accurate voting systems. Florida and Michigan knew they would play no part in the selection of our democratic nominee. Those votes were counted, but those votes did not count. Big difference. Unfortunately come November when once again our votes are not counted, we will have no one to blame but ourselves...very much like Florida and Michigan.

[mac2]

81. Orwellian or Greenspanese?

[stillcool]

82. difficult to understand?

[GoesTo11]

48. The DNC protestors were trying to fabricate an election

Choosing positions based on tactical advantage, not principle -- as is clear from what they said before these primaries vs. what they say now.

So, no difference.

[mac2]

53. If I lived near there I would have been there....

and I'm no supporter of Obama or Hillary since my candidate was asked to leave for the "good of the party" before Super Tuesday. Now I see them doing that to Hillary. I want fair elections with every vote counted.

If the party can't do that...then they will be the same as the Republican cowards.

[berni_mccoy]

72. Wrong. The protesters were trying to allow people to get away with breaking the rules.

That's how they are the same.

[BeHereNow]

74. They probably bussed the same protesters in...

Nothing would surprise me.
BHN

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

2. We Love You Hillary!!!!!

[TahitiNut]

42. The Borg Have Spoken

:eyes:

[GoesTo11]

59. What's this cult of personality Love thing about.?

I love my family, my best friends. I don't love people I have seen on TV but do not know. Frankly, I care more about the fortunes of the people I love than I do about strangers. Why would I care more about Hillary's fortunes than about those of some waitress in Iowa?

What has she done that's loveable? Ran for president? Send her freakin' roses for that?

Approve of her, fine. Love her policies, fine. But be a grownup and don't make Hillary the object of whatever fantasies you have. You and Hillary are never going to hang out, go shopping, have coffee or anything like that. And she doesn't care about you personally. She cares about your vote. Generously, she cares about you in the abstract -- in the way that many people care for others in the human family.

Love. Lord above. Now you're trying to trick me in love.

[JackORoses]

68. haven't you always claimed that you weren't a Hillary supporter?

Why the charade?

[writes3000]

3. At any point today, did Harold Ickes actually ADMIT that he voted for the DNC's punishment

re: Michigan and Florida.

His posturing is perhaps the most hypocritical display I've seen in years.

[BlooInBloo]

4. (shrug) Think of all of the wonderful moments we would have MISSED had she dropped out though!

I mean, watching Ickes get Wexlered was CLASSIC!

:rofl:



EDIT: Typo.

[K Gardner]

10. I didn't watch the first part.. I need to go find that video cuz I've heard it was priceless !

[BlooInBloo]

11. Oh jeez - yah it was. Just youtube "wexler".

[Thrill]

5. She is spending a ton of time in Puerto Rico. She better win there

Or its going to be embarrassing

[K Gardner]

18. I keep hearing pundits say she'll win PR and might win MT. Go figure.

[roseBudd]

Turn out is projected to be only 20-30%

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. How does this help her or her husband in the long run?

This campaign has appeared to tarnish the reputation of her husband, which he has so carefully worked to burnish since he retired from office. And if she wishes for any political future, how does this type of campaigning help? It seems to me she is alienating folks she would later need as allies, even if her ambition is reduced to serving in the Senate.

[K Gardner]

8. It is truly amazing, astonishing even. The looks on the faces of the RBC members, even

those on the committe who supported her, said it all. How she is taken seriously in ANY capacity now is nearly unimaginable.

[Thrill]

12. I think its really hard for her. She thought she was inevitable

[mac2]

28. The Florida delegation leader left with tears in her eyes.

Does that make you feel good and she's a Republican?

[sniffa]

33. Poor thing

Makes me feel awesome.

:woohoo:

[K Gardner]

35. Maybe she was embarassed over the conduct of Hillary's Mob. You're obviously

still very upset. Take some time and try to get a grip.

[mac2]

83. I had a grip on the loss of my voting rights before Super Tuesday.

[JerseygirlCT]

24. It doesn't. It doesn't.

It's nothing but a childish temper tantrum. If she can't have it, no one can.

[Higher Standard]

9. "This decision violates the bedrock principles of our democracy and our party"

My own view is that ANY decision that does not reflect the actual will of the electorate does that. The problem is that there's no accurate picture of what the actual will of the electorate was. You can't use polls, we've seen that polling is far from infallible. Exit polls, as well, for that reason and the fact that voting on that day was influnced by the fact that the voters knew their votes weren't counting and that there were limited names on the Michigan ballot. The only truly fair options in the Michigan case were no delegate votes or a 50/50 split between the two remaining candidates. As it was, the ruling that passed was favorable to Sen. Clinton. Was it representative of the will of the electorate? Probably not, but neither was the outcome of the vote there, which was what Harold Ickes was pushing. There was never going to be a solution to Michigan that was going to properly reflect the voters there without an actual revote.

[K Gardner]

14. I think you summarized it quite well. I agree completely.

[mac2]

19. Agree with you.

It's all so Orwellian. The party caused the problem and now has the solution.

This wound won't heal but divide by wishing it so. We've been though too many stolen elections since 2000. Oh yes...that's what it is meant to do once again. The back room politicians rule!

[Donkeykick]

21. You said...

There was never going to be a solution to Michigan that was going to properly reflect the voters there without an actual revote.

Hillary was all set for a revote too. BTW: Welcome. :toast:

[mac2]

32. Backroom politics at its worst.

[K Gardner]

38. Are you going to spam every subthread on this post with your bitter snark? Just like the

people yesterday, it looks a bit desperate.

[mac2]

40. Bitter against having every vote count?

[cliffordu]

56. Too bad you're not interested in the way the process was supposed

to work and how your girl stabbed the voter in the back. Hmm??

[Donkeykick]

47. Why?

Just because she wanted a re-vote?!

You still got it the way you wanted it. Does this mean that your frame of thinking is just as "backroom" as well? Heck! Even Barack said that he wasn't frightened of a re-vote. Does this mean that he smokes in the "backroom" as well?

mac2: I'll tell you what I'm really ticked off at; it's not that delegates were not fully seated; it's not that the two states got 1/2 votes; it's that this whole fiasco happened to start with. How many mistakes have you seen in the GOP primary so far, that is identical to ours? :eyes:

My father showed me a questionnaire that he received in the mail; he filled out the form and sent it back to them along with a handwritten letter on how disappointed he was with the leadership so far, and how the Party is not going to receive any more money from him or his family until signs of intellectual caring is seen in this Party.

Do you know what they're most likely going to do with that questionnaire and handwritten letter? They're most likely going to throw out the letter without even reading it, and they are going to NOT read the questionnaire; they're going to keep the address so that they can bum $$$ off our family this Summer through postal, email and phone calls.

Where does disenfranchisement begin--the candidates or the Party? Think about it.

[JustAnotherGen]

13. Ahhhh - The American Leadership Project

A 527 at it's (barf) best.

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/02/more_from_the_american_leaders.php

<snip>ALP official Roger Salazar e-mails:

The American Leadership Project is a committee of Americans who have come together to shine a backlight on issues that matter most to our nation's middle class and do it in a positive way. These are positive ads that serve to raise awareness about these issues at a critical time in our nation's history and in places where they are paying the most attention. Right now that's Ohio and Texas. Sen. Clinton is a champion of these issues. ALP supports her positions and we say so in the ads. <snip>

From The NY Times
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/outside-group-helps-clintons-ad-campaign/

<snip>Most of the money for the commercials comes from a pair of unions that have endorsed Mrs. Clinton, the American Federation of State & Municipal Employees and the Machinists Union.
As a 527, the designation given to such groups because of the part of the tax code they fall under, American Leadership Project is barred from coordinating with the campaign and cannot explicitly call for Mrs. Clinton’s election. Instead, it is limited to advocacy on issues.
</snip>

[K Gardner]

15. Gah!! Thank you for providing this information. I didn't know what group the article was

referring to.

[newmajority]

78. Just look at the name

They might as well come out and admit that its a merger of the "American" Enterprise Intstitute, the "Democratic" "Leadership" Council, and the Project for a New "American" Century.

[TexasObserver]

16. Her campaign is BROKE, and now they're using 527s to skirt the law.

Way to go, Hillary. You're a cheater to very end.

[HockeyMom]

17. As a woman and a former New Yorker

I just don't get it, i.e., her supporters (especially female) fanatical loyalty. So what? Big deal that she is a woman. So is Ann Coulter.

Incidentally, I am also an older woman who went through all that in the 60s and 70s during the women's movement. It was never about just ANY woman.

[mac2]

22. How about loyal that their vote is being stolen?

By some back room rule made undemocratically. Not by delegates but appointed party elite.

[K Gardner]

25. Oh good lord. Give it up.

[roseBudd]

26. My theory is she appealed to a certain type of female....

The HRC type of female supporter

Is the women who screamed for The Beatles & Elvis when everyone else wanted to hear the music.

[FlaGranny]

39. Hey!!

:-) I was one of those who wanted to hear the music. I wanted a mic so I could yell - "Just shut up so I can hear the music, stop acting like idiots."

[Clark2008]

41. Nope.

My mother screamed for The Beatles and Elvis, but voted for Obama.

:hi:

[mac2]

54. You are walking on thin ice here.

Hillary types? You mean aggressive women (they must be shy and silent behind her man)? How about type casting you as being a sexist?

[roseBudd]

69. Whatever, I am a white female Obama supporter, I hate chick flicks, would never scram at a concert &

think the women who showed up yesterday are self centered.

[shadowknows69]

79. You mean like how Hill "Stood by her man"

As he was getting hummers in the Oval Office?

[still_one]

20. A person is as good as their word. If they agree or in fact help make the rules

and the rules go against what you want, one would expect them to obey those rules

Can we really trust someone who indicates they won't necessarily abide by the rules?

[dansolo]

29. Ickes position is like McCain on Mcain-Feingold

[still_one]

36. Excellent analogy. The actions of mccain in that regard speak volumes /nt

[JerseygirlCT]

23. She's such a hypocrite

Of course, these rules that meant MI and FL didn't count were fine by her beforehand, when she was sure she didn't need them.

Once ST comes and goes and she's not the nominee, suddenly it's time to recalibrate. Oh! Every vote must count! Especially when I'm the only one they can vote for!

[madrchsod]

30. another hollow victory for her and the people of puerto rico

their vote counts for nothing because they can not vote for the president...it`s time for puerto rico to decide if they want to be a state or a country

[K Gardner]

49. I wonder how many people listening to the "I won popular vote" argument know how

TRULY flawed that system and mathematical conflagration is.

[Hepburn]

37. Hillary....

...you really need to stop wearing white pants. They are not your friend.

[melody]

43. I guess our masters won't allow us to have any President who isn't a corporate sell-out

So Hillary is opening up a second front on Obama.

She's going to run as an independent or "new Democrat" or some crap like that. She's going to make certain we lose in the fall to her friend McCain.

[high density]

44. Her best "electoral chance" is from a place with no electoral votes?

What ever happened to that electoral votes argument, HRC?

[K Gardner]

46. It's surreal, isn't it...? McAwful on ABC This Week confirming that

"Hillary will win the nomination.. we'll have a BIG DAY here in PR with the popular vote..this is NOT the Democratic Party *I* know..."

Refuses to answer the question if Hillary will drop out when Obama reaches the Magic Number.

[Politics_Guy25]

80. They don't even accept 2,118 as the magic number K.

This is outrageous. They are heading right off a cliff and you are absolutely right.

[papapi]

50. Lawdy Miss Maudy!!! I aint never seen anything like it!!! Can't she take a hint?

[L0oniX]

52. Hillary ...always the asscarrot.

[mac2]

57. That's good reason to support another one?

[avenger64]

55. No justice, no peace!

"The divisive and hyperbolic language they are using (hijack, violates principles of democracy, disenfranchising 600,000 etc)" - sounds like a damned good description if you ask me, except I would point out that Howard Dean is the new Scalia.

"guarantees that in whatever manner she exits she leaves behind a scorched and gaping hole in the party she claims to represent." Yeah, that's the hole where 'electability' used to be, before the party went with The Anointed One, who can't win the big swing states, or working-class voters.

To the convention!

[EFerrari]

61. Have you ever thought of how silly your face would look

without your nose?

[avenger64]

63. What the hell does that mean?

I'm reporting that comment as a threat.

[EFerrari]

66. LOL. Put yourself on Red Alert because you are in extreme danger

of cutting off your own nose to spite your face.

[billyoc]

58. Newly!

:rofl:

[K Gardner]

I know !! LOL...

[BlooInBloo]

60. Sounds like the kind of mind-set America has had quite enough of, after 8 years of it.

[MilesColtrane]

62. American Leadership Project...

...run by ex-Clinton assistant press secretary Roger Salazar, is being sued by Mike Gravel and others because it is essentially advocating Hillary Clinton in it's advertising, and has done so in the past.

Fred Wertheimer, president of Democracy 21, a campaign finance reform group, said of ALP, "This pop-up 527 group clearly has been created to spend unlimited soft money to influence the presidential election. As far as the duck test goes: It looks like a campaign ad; it sounds like a campaign ad; it's a campaign ad."

It took the FEC three years to investigate similar claims against some 527s in the 2004 election.

If you'd like to talk to the people at the American Leadership Project their number is [phone].

[Bullet1987]

64. I'm beginning to wonder whether she'll even acknowledge Obama

WHEN he wins the nomination!?!

[K Gardner]

65. It's certainly not going to be an effective endorsement. It will, in her own "as far as I know"

way, be conditional and limited, with barbs.

[walldude]

73. So is Puerto Rico another "key state" ?

You know one of those states that Obama can't possibly win but is a must for Democrats to get elected?

[barack the house]

75. Our side needs a organization that will make more personalized ads for Obama....

They need to be done by women too, those are the voters to reach.