What price unity? (for those that would hold their own votes hostage)

[ExPatLeftist]

Over the past couple of weeks, and rising to a fever pitch in the last few days, I have heard many people here that describe themselves as supporters of Hillary Clinton threatening to hold their own votes hostage. These threats have been both outright - such as, "I will vote for McCain!" and subtle - such as, "How are you going to win in November if you talk to me like that?"

The underlying fallacy seems to be that Obama supporters are a hive mind - that somehow we are all under singular control and decide as a unit how to treat Hillary supporters. Therefore, this point of view is obviously fatally flawed. As we know, people are individuals that speak for themselves and should take responsibility for what they, and they alone, say and do.

Many people here and in the "real world" are reaching out, including Obama himself. Many people here post messages of unity and complimentary messages to the opposition candidate. There are some people on both sides, however, that post nothing but bile and broad-brush representations, proving for all around them that they do not subscribe to logic and view the world in terms of black and white - an intrinsically childish attitude.

So some supporters are being "nice", some people are being "assholes". And this applies to all candidates, ever, everywhere, since the dawn of man.

My question, therefore, for those that would threaten those members of the party that will support the party nominee with not voting or voting for the opposition is the following: What is the price you are putting on your own head? Are you honestly saying that if one person says something "mean" about you on the Internet (of all places) that you will throw out your own convictions and not vote or vote for the opposition out of pure spite? Do you realize that that is an absolute impossibility? Or is it something more nebulous that you are demanding? Do you really take the words of some nominal supporter as more important than those of the candidate himself or the future of our party and country? Or do you mean these threats at all?

I have heard this threat repeated as almost a mantra around here lately, yet it is never specified in any greater detail than basically, "If you (collective "you" - i.e. hive mind assumption) don't knock it off, then I will...". I cannot fathom what is being asked for here, as I know that some here on the victorious side are trying there best while others are not - as it is and always will be, not only in elections but in society in general.

I would greatly appreciate it if any Clinton supporter that is making these threats would respond to this thread with the actual terms of your threat so that we can understand what we are up against. I would also like to know what you expect of those of us that ARE conversing civilly here - what more do you demand from us?

What is the price for your vote?


(Disclaimer: This is directed only at those making these threats, not supporters of Clinton that will vote for the Democratic nominee (who have my respect and best wishes). Also, of course all of these hostage-takers have their own terms or concept of what is needed for unity, and I will not lump them together, so it would be good to hear from as many of you as possible - I am trying to understand this.)

[JustAnotherGen]

1. recommend

What is the price you are putting on your own head? Are you honestly saying that if one person says something "mean" about you on the Internet (of all places) that you will throw out your own convictions and not vote or vote for the opposition out of pure spite? Do you realize that that is an absolute impossibility? Or is it something more nebulous that you are demanding? Do you really take the words of some nominal supporter as more important than those of the candidate himself or the future of our party and country? Or do you mean these threats at all?


Not an Obama supporter or a Clinton Supporter - just a Democrat in the White House Supporter.

I don't understand it either.

We have the potential for a Supreme Court Justice nominee during the next Presidential term. Do we really want another activist Conservative judge on the bench?

Do you really want to go to war with Iran? Do you NEVER want to see our soldiers pulled back over the horizon in the Middle East?

What about alternative energy sources?

What about Poverty? (Edwards girl here!) - Do you think McSame will handle it any differently than Bush and basically say, "You were born poor in America. Why don't you just die and do us that favor?" <---- Sorry but that's how I felt after Hurricaine Katrina.

What about this silly little 'War on Terror'. Oh yeah! HOW'S that working out for us? Sort of like the war on drugs. . . :-) And on that note, I lost a good friend in 9/11. To date - his killer (if still alive) has not been caught. I want freaking justice. There will be NO justice for those who died that day. There hasn't been to date. Just stupid wars that have placed us into total financial disrepair as a country.

I want justice. I want equality. I want the RESTORATION of civil liberties within this country. I want the inclusion of all Americans to all institutions of our country.

For that - I was willing to drop Edwards and Richardson and get behind Obama and Clinton. And now it's time to drop Clinton and get behind the presumptive nominee. BTW - my first and second choices have too . . .

[ExPatLeftist]

2. I agree - this is far bigger than any individual.

And we need to work together for our own future.

Thank you very much for your input.

[suston96]

3. A democrat in the White House is the least of your worries...it's really about the Congress...

....and especially the Senate.

Drive away enough Hillary supporters and come November there may be serious problems.

As for me, I will certainly support the Democratic nominees in both presidential and congressional elections.

But they will only get 1/2 votes each from me.

[ExPatLeftist]

4. OK, but I would really appreciate it if you have any input on the question posed...

I know that this does not apply to you, but as a Clinton supporter, I thought you might understand the view... Do you have any input on the questions posed in the OP?

You say, "Drive away enough Hillary supporters..." But the question is, how are they being "driven away"? Personally, I thought people voted based on the merits of the candidates, not the statements of a handful of his nominal supporters... Maybe that is naive...?

[suston96]

5. I did input: I am giving 1/2 vote for president and 1/2 vote for congresspeople....nt

[juajen]

20. That was funny!

Thank you very much. I needed a laugh this morning. Have a donut and cup of joe on me.

[roguevalley]

32. this board is a big board but not big enough to affect any outcome

of an election. To assume that we are 'driving hillary supporters' away is ridiculous on the face of it. To assume that people who cast their vote for hillary are somehow this monolithic beast that will lurch her direction even when she loses is preposterous. People are smarter than that. they will vote for the nominee and Obama will win. Also, his coattails will sweep dems into all kinds of offices. I am always amazed to hear people talk about Hillary supporters as if they were one body with a million heads.

There are people here who were more passionate about their candidates than the hillary people who have moved on. Most of the hillary people, 95% I would imagine, will do the same. How do I know? Precedent. This is the way it always was and always will be. they had the thrill of voting for their candidate but this is now. They will do the right thing and vote for the nominee. ANything else is magical thinking and to disrespect hillary voters as somehow less smart than others in the past is sad to me.

No one talks for more than themselves.

[polmaven]

38. The problem about which I worry

is when these same supporters go "out there" if you will.

Don't you think that, if they are this vile and hateful here, calling every HRC supporter a racist for the mere fact that we support her, don't you think that will carry over to the General?

If that kind of attitude is brought out to the neighborhoods, and a voter...be it a Clinton supporter, an Independent, or maybe even a fed up Republican asks a question about one or more of Senator Obama's policy stances...or better yet...about Jeremiah Wright, or his religion, and the answer is "Fuck you - We don't need you anyway...go away...you racist!"

If they do it here, they will do it out there too.

Hillary supporters...true Hillary supporters... will, of course do the right thing and vote for the nominee. Many will not, however, remain here, at DU, where we have been called venomous things, and told we are not wanted. For Democrats to treat other Democrats like that is not only sad...but if the tactic carries over to the General Election, and out in the real world, it will be very detrimental to the candidate and the party.

[JustAnotherGen]

6. Considering

The unprecedented Presidential "Powers" Bush has had -

Congress is worth n-o-t-h-i-n-g. If I've learned anything since 2006 - Majorities mean nothing when our :mad:pRESIDENT can defy the will of the people and do what they want anyways. I think right now our pRESIDENT is probably trying to count all those delegates won by Clinton and Obama and is TRYING to figure out why he still hasn't run out of his little fingers and his itty bitty toes. :rofl:

At least with Obama or Clinton having those powers we can be assured it's not a freaking idiot pissing on the backs of Congress and the American people then turning around and trying to tell us it's raining.

[hokies4ever]

10. Both Obama and McCain have vowed to not overstep the powers of the presidency

which is a good start. A legitimate question still remains though. It seems like future presidents could decide to abuse signing statements if they wanted to. Something needs to be done about that.

[ExPatLeftist]

12. I am hoping Obama will address that

during his review of all of Bush's signing statements, which he has already promised to do in his first 100 days as president.

[hokies4ever]

14. I think that Congress will have to take the initiative

plus there won't be too much of an emphasis on passing this type of legislation. Just needs to be done before the end of his first term.

I think this election will go down in history as defining how much long-lasting damage Bush did to the Republican Party.

[JustAnotherGen]

15. Go Obama!

But honestly - Clinton would do the same thing. I guess going back to the OP - I have a deep pride in who the final two are.

Only MY party and my belief system could have given a bi-racial man and a caucasian woman the opportunity. We are about opportunity and opening doors - and neither would be where they are today if they didn't clearly understand how dangerous Bush has been to not just America, but the world.

In all of the back and forth the past few days at D.U. - I think to the OP point . . .

Aren't we all populist and progressive with a sense that the world is bigger than just what's going on in our own backyards? At the end of the day - we KNOW we can do better but that's only going to happen with someone in office with a D after their name! :toast:

[hokies4ever]

16. I agree, black men wouldn't stand a chance in the GOP.

Alan Keyes is a great example. I don't agree with his political views, but he clearly reflects the views shared by those hard right-wing religious fanatics in that party. He's always much smarter than his GOP opponents in debates yet the party tries to keep his influence muffled.

[hokies4ever]

7. 1 Kawasaki 800 SX-R jet ski

Just like the one John Edwards wanted. :rofl:

[JustAnotherGen]

8. Hey!

You picking on my boy Edwards? :rofl: I still love him! :pals:

[hokies4ever]

9. I thought that Colbert skit was kind of funny :-)

Plus he even mentioned it during his endorsement of Obama. :rofl:

[ExPatLeftist]

11. I cracked up over that skit :)

John Edwards is a great man with a wonderful sense of humour.

I supported him initially, but am now very happy with Obama. I still am holding out hope for an Obama/Edwards ticket.

[JustAnotherGen]

13. Edwards for AG!

I want him as the AG. Seriously. Also, if any sheeeet goes down this election - I want that fierce trial attorney going after the GOP's jugular. He couldn't the last two times (seated in Congress and the Veep Cand) - but this time . . .

I want him just outside the circle and ready to pounce on those bastards.

[NashVegas]

17. AFAIC, It's All About Leverage

As a Hillary Clinton supporter, I have no demands on you, unless you're a delegate and if so, my sole demand is that you treat my candidate with respect.

As a DUer, I have no demand to make upon you for my vote, because there's nothing you can do to fill any demand I could make except for your own personal behavior.

You want to throw the burden of this on Hillary Clinton's supporters. We're the ones making threats, so we're supposed to give you, ExPatLeftist, a check list of things needed to drive us to the booth in November? And what exactly do you have the power to do with such a list and get such things accomplished?

I expect civility and I expect not to be treated with hostility for laying out legitimate reasons for not believing Barack Obama poops apple butter.

Obama fought low. If we were to pay credence to to his campaign surrogates, his online supporters, and parts of the "liberal" news media, we'd believe Bill and Hillary Clinton are the second coming of the Nathan Bedford Forrest & Co., as are the people who voted for Hillary Clinton.

The Obama campaign pushed this. You know that news byte about how Bill Clinton was asked, "what does it say that the two of you (Bill + Hillary) couldn't beat Barack Obama," and he, after initially refusing to rise to the bait, spoke of how Obama was expected to win South Carolina, and how it wasn't the first time a black candidate had done that, that Jesse Jackson had done it twice. Oh, the horror! Bill's playing the race card!

What very few people know, or acknowledge, is that immediately prior to that question, Bill Clinton was asked by a reporter "Can Barack Obama win as a black candidate?" He refused to answer. That part is conveniently ignored, because it doesn't play in so well to the "Clintons are using racism" narrative.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/01/28/intv.clinton.out.of.context.cnn

Many people here and in the "real world" are reaching out, including Obama himself. Many people here post messages of unity and complimentary messages to the opposition candidate.

Talk is cheap. Hillary Clinton is a candidate for the Democratic nomination until she drops out of her own volition or a vote is taken in Denver. Until then, look to your own behavior.

[hokies4ever]

18. Does Bill love black people as much as you do?

:rofl:
Bill knew what he was saying. He's a career politician. He should have been aware that the media was looking for him to make a gaffe about Obama being black.

[ExPatLeftist]

19. I have no power to do anything with what you say.

I am simply trying to understand. Understand why so many seem to be threatening so much and yet not putting out any specific demands. And also understand how so many can view millions of people as all responsible when a few people call them a name.

How is this election different than any other in the area of unity after the primary? Why all the threats?

These are the type of things I am trying to understand.

As I have stated, I am completely content with my own behavior, but of course we must realize that everyone has their own understanding of what is "acceptable". It just seems illogical to me that some would try to force their boundaries on someone else - but it is, IMO, horrific that anyone would do that and threaten to change their own vote based on it.

In the end, people will vote how they vote. If people want to vote for McCain because someone on the Internet called them a name (which I do not, BTW, condone), then I feel that that says a lot more about the person casting that self-destructive vote than those that they claim "pushed them" into their vote.

Anyone who votes for McCain or stays home is part of the problem, IMO. And doing so based on the actions, not of the candidate, but a few nominal supporters, is absurd and childish.

[NashVegas]

22. Then There's No Purpose, Really

Like you have no negotiating power for the Obama campaign, I have none with Hillary Clinton's, so this is all rather silly, isn't it?

How is this election different than any other in the area of unity after the primary? Why all the threats?

If I may paraphrase Mr. Carville, "it's about the double standards, stupid."

If you cannot see that the campaigns, the media, and many DUers engaged in and/or approved of sexist and gender-based attacks on Hillary Clinton and her supporters while not only were race-based negatives coming from the Clinton side booed and jeered but anything that could possibly have been construed as a race-based negative was seized upon as proof that Clinton and her voters are racists, there's no talking to you.

If you can see it, you might realize why (some) women - both Clinton and Obama supporters alike - are upset enough to give the Democratic Party a big FU. If that is the case, the best thing you could do is back off until we're cooled off.

[ExPatLeftist]

23. Then there's no purpose to this entire site, really.

This is a place for discussion and sharing ideas. I was attempting to understand something that I do not understand. THAT is the purpose of this site. I am hoping for some genuine discussion on this issue. It's too bad that you choose instead to claim that "there's no talking to" those that disagree with you. Reminds me of the attitudes of many about not talking to nations with which we disagree. It makes no sense.

[roguevalley]

35. If any do, then the draft is on their heads. its that simple. however,

i think you overestimate the number of women out there who will be that selfish. We only speak for ourselves.

[juajen]

26. That was a great post, and I love the "Obama poops apple butter" remark.

Thanks I really love that laugh this Sunday morning.

[roguevalley]

33. how is denver going to happen for her when she has no standing

to bring a challenge forward. Last time I looked, she lived in NY.

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Democrat for President

As a person who supported Kucinich and is not that thrilled with the two remaining, I would say that if you've ever been in a hard core and important negotiation in which one party is weaker than the other, you might recognize the tactic. A person's vote belongs to them, and that is at a certain point all they have left. It is fairly common in business to say you will walk away when you will not actually do so. Saying and doing are two different things.
I will also say that I have read many posting by backers of both candidates that say they will not vote for the other. The 'vote as hostage' ploy is not unique to one side. In fact, while it still looked more up in the air, I constantly read posts that said 'I will never vote for Hillary, Hillary is not a Democrat' and even ' I want her out of the Party'. Just saying. I myself would never in a million years say I'd not vote for a Democratic ticket, but backers of both remaining candidates have said it over and over. I am repulsed when I see it. Another favorite of mine that might go unnoticed due to bias is this statement ' I would never vote for anyone who voted for the IWR'. You do know I assume that person did not vote for John Kerry in 2004. Never means never. So either that person helped install Bush again, or that person is a liar who means 'I would never again'. Such statements are disgusting to me as a Democrat. I opposed the war from the fist drumbeat, but I found a way to vote for Kerry anyway. I did not say 'I'll never vote for some war monger who did Bush's bidding, Kerry's another neo-con, mega rich hawk.' but I sure could have.

A movement for change that says it can reach out to the GOP, no less, should be able to speak to other Democrats with respect, don't you think? Obama asks that we activley engage those who disagree with us the most, don't you think he includes the rival Democrats? He asks the GLBT community to tolerate the intolerant religionists in order to change their minds, if he can ask that of us, gee wiz it seems the ardent Obama supporters should be rushing in with political first aid, promises of respect and prehaps even light refreshments for those voters that must remain Democratic.
You see a one sided thing. I see two side engaged in the same sort of ploys. I read a poster here who is sure that Obama will be able to make nice with the GOP and get all things done without partisanism, who also posts a constant stream of bait designed not to win Nov, but to make more acrimony and gain more praise from the peanut gallery for the poster. If you are preaching just to get the choir to shout amen, you are of no value to any but yourself and the choir. Those who don't win votes and instead make division are of zero value to our Party.
As the winning 'side' all responsibility now lies with the Obama folks. The winner is the one who is now the leader, and must lead. What you have been fighting for all along is great responsibility, not a door prize but a ton of work. You won. The work is yours. No time to fish for apology or to shame the vanquished. You won the job of beating McCain. Doing anything else is a dereliction of a duty you just finished fighting for so very hard. Job one, win Hillary's voters to Obama. Actually, job one is her delegates. They need to be won, and this DU-GD-P style will not get that done.
So is this about victory or about doing a victory dance?

[NashVegas]

27. Thank You For That Wonderful Post

:thumbsup:

Especially this part:

A movement for change that says it can reach out to the GOP, no less, should be able to speak to other Democrats with respect, don't you think?

[ExPatLeftist]

37. While I agree that it is not uniqure to one side...

...I would say that what you mention about the "I will never vote for Hillary" people (which I think is lame as well, BTW) is not what I was describing in the OP. Yes, there are people on both sides that say they will never vote for the other candidate. But those saying it about Hillary, at least those that I have read (all of them that I have seen, though I may well have missed some as I do not read all threads) base that on disagreement with the candidate herself - either on the issues or based on tactics. There are those that feel the same about Obama - so be it, and although I think it is short-sighted on both sides, I was not talking about that.

What I am talking about are those people that say that they will vote for McCain or not at all based on things supporters of Obama have said - and I keep emphasising "nominal" supporters because at least on the 'Net, we only know about people what they themselves tell us. It is that which I am addressing here, as I feel that people should vote for the candidate, and not base their decision on what some unaffiliated people that claim to support Obama may say on the Internet.

This also applies to my characterization as "hostage takers", as those that simply state they will never vote for Clinton or Obama seem to have a fundamental disagreement with the candidate him/herself and will not vote for them, period - asking for nothing to change their vote. On the other hand, we have people saying "I will not vote for Obama unless...", and there we have the hostage situation, along with an implication that their votes are somehow for sale - or available for those that "play ball". I think that is a shame of a waste of a vote, as I hold my vote sacred and would not bargain with anyone for my vote - I make up my own mind. Holding it over others' heads is most likely often disingenuous, but it needs to be called out. And it is a very different thing than simply stating that one will never vote for a certain candidate based on philosophical differences.

To be completely blunt, I am so appalled by this vote blackmail that I view it as similar to terrorism (to a different degree, of course) - the attitude is, "Give me what I want or I will blow us ALL up". I will not play that game, and I am sure that not many will here. Almost as puzzling is the fact that the demand for which the votes are taken hostage are either entirely nebulous or imply that any further comments that the hostage-takers do not like will sway their votes toward McCain. Probably tantrums, yes, but these tactics should be condemned, IMO, by all sides. I can only hope that the people making those kinds of statements will calm down and see the big pictures in a few days when they get over the fact that their candidate lost the primary.

[tedoll78]

24. No price.

I'm a Clinton supporter, but I have no price because I hold no threat. I'll vote for the Democratic nominee, period.

The only thing that has ever made me consider defecting in the Fall is the absolutely incredible levels of unprovoked nastiness I encounter from so many Obama supporters online. Don't jump on me - I know that not all of his supporters are this way, just as not all Clinton supporters are redneck/racist/uneducated/older/white/female/etc yokels. Those feelings, that temptation to drop-out.. it's always for just a split-second. Reason quickly returns (cue the DU remarks about reason & Clinton support intersecting), and I know in my heart that I'm not willing to screw-over our country and the globe just because of some anonymous assholes' not-so-magnanimous-in-victory behavior online. Should he win, Obama will be a fine president. Not my first choice, but heaven compared to the hell we have right now.

I also stick to our candidate, no matter whom, for another reason: there are portraits of of John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsburg here in my office, and I owe them my vote.

Just being honest.

[Swamp Rat]

25. Fool me once...

Some are members of Operation Chaos who never intended to vote for Hillary. It on takes a few, here and there, to cause trouble.

For instance, take a vat of delicious, homemade ice cream with all natural ingredients, then add 1/4 cup of dead cockroaches and stir.

[Tatiana]

28. Recommended. I refuse to be blackmailed or held hostage. That is not going to work any longer.

Want to negotiate the platform at the convention?

Cool! I'm all for bargaining on that. What are your issues? What positions are important to you that we need to include (OTHER THAN HILLARY CLINTON ON THE TICKET)? Women's issues? Voting rights? Economic justice? Gay rights?

Let's talk. Let's negotiate. I fervently commit myself towards making sure our nominee represents the broad diversity of ALL of our constituents.

But I draw the line at emotional blackmail. A vote for McCain is a vote for death: for the death of millions more civilians in an illegal invasion, the death of thousands more of our troops, the death of many women in back rooms when they cannot obtain safe and legal abortions. Vote for the Democratic nominee or vote for death. That's the choice.

[NashVegas]

29. Yet You're Just Fine With *Being* the Emotional Blackmailer

A vote for McCain is a vote for death: for the death of millions more civilians in an illegal invasion, the death of thousands more of our troops, the death of many women in back rooms when they cannot obtain safe and legal abortions. Vote for the Democratic nominee or vote for death. That's the choice.

[Tatiana]

31. That's the truth. n/t

[roguevalley]

36. you can't handle the truth. a vote for mccain IS a vote for death.

[azmouse]

30. I feel the same way.

I'm not going to beg any HRC person for their vote. They're adults. They know what is at stake in Nov.
It's time for them to grow up.

[LWolf]

34. Can a non-Clinton supporter answer?

I made that threat, about Obama and Clinton both, 3 months before the primary season opened. I haven't changed my mind.

What price my vote? There are so many crucial issues on the table that it's hard to choose. I can't expect the nominee to do the right thing on ALL issues. I'll settle for these:

1. Hard, consistent work to reinstate the fairness doctrine, or craft a new one.
2. Endorse, and campaign for, HR 676.
3. Repeal NCLB, and do not support any rw goals for public ed like merit pay and charter schools.
4. No more NAFTA/CAFTA; return to fair trade based on environmental and labor standards.
5. End the war on terror now. No more war as an instrument of international policy.

That's what Obama, or Clinton, needs to do to earn my vote.

What do Obama supporters need to do?

Stop promoting him as anti-war. Stop promoting him as liberal. Stop promoting him as the 2nd coming of JFK or MLK. Tell the truth. Campaign for him on what he is: a centrist.

[ExPatLeftist]

41. I both agree and disagree to some degree...

But what I do not understand is the concept of voting for no one because no one fits your bill as dream candidate (that is to say, no one with a shot. I support Kucinich as well, but unfortunately pragmatism needs to play a role at some point, IMO).

If no one fills your criteria (which they do not) and you do not vote (or vote for a third party candidate), you are enabling McCain. Your choice, obviously, but I would not be able to deal with that. The US system is flawed in that, as a de facto 2 party system, it often falls to us to vote for a candidate that is not our dream, but far preferable over the other. I think that choice is quite clear in McCain vs. Obama.

[LWolf]

42. I've never not voted.

As a matter of fact, I'm 48 years old, and have always voted for a Democrat for President.

I'm uncertain this time. Just about every candidate I've ever voted for has been a compromise, and too many of them have been while holding my nose for all I was worth. I'm willing to compromise, but there are limits. These two are beyond my limits.

The best case scenario to come out of the current mess, imo, would be for the delegates, super and otherwise, to nominate a 3rd compromise candidate that is neither of the current two dividers.

I'll wait until after the convention to mull over my options.

[AllHereTruth]

39. Breath People.

Thank you "ExPatLeftist" for this post.

Truly thankful. People need to take a step back, take a breath, and take a second to realize their vote in november will decide the future of America.

I am a 20yr old male. The world of my future will be decided in the next election.

The world of your children's future will be decided in the next election. When Clinton drops out, the next logical choice is Obama. Please don't ruin this great country because of your own ignorance.

[ExPatLeftist]

40. Agreed, and thanks for the kind words. :) n/t