The person the Hillary backers should be pissed at is Hillary

[rurallib]

She stepped into the ring with a huge lead and access to big people and big money.
She then proceeded to run one of the worst campaigns in history and taking to heart some of the worst advice ever given. And when crunch time came instead of offering a vision, she offered a version of warmed over Karl Rove politics. She cuddled up to the Republican nominee while totally trashing those in her own party. She climbed in bed with Scaife and Fox News. She blew through money like a kid in a candy store and then cried when her opponent still had money left.
And yet like true blinded lovers, her followers blame all her ills on her others claiming that they somehow cheated.
I have no doubt her campaign will be studied as the finest example of what not to do.
And of course the irony is that she will owe money for this campaign probably for years. And one person she owes huge money to is one who gave the worst advice.

[dkf]

1. Look at her health care task force...that is also a great example of what not to do.

[rurallib]

4. Which is why I would have great concerns if Obama were to

have Hillary try to run his health care plan through.

[dkf]

9. Me neither.

Frankly, I don't want to give her any cabinet position, regardless of my dislike for her. She just doesn't seem to be a very good manager.

She does seem okay on policy though.

I honestly don't know where she could be best utilized.

[bvar22]

50. Ambassador to Tuzla?

!

[depakid]

7. An Obama supporter harping on health care- now that's some irony

Obama looked into 75,000 people's eyes in Portland, Oregon and lied to them about universal health care.

It drew huge applause, but of course, that's not what he's proposing or supporting.

Sad thing is, the embellishment was unnecessary- much like Hillary's sniper comments.

[dkf]

16. The Dems had both houses of congress back then.

If you want to know why our health care system is still a shambles, take a look at how botched up that earlier effort was. Her secrecy and over-board control deep sixed the best chance we had.

[Rageneau]

22. Sen. Phil Gramm took credit for defeating health care -- he was a Republican.

On the day of the vote to knock the legislation down, he was quoted as saying, "Okay, we killed it. Now, we've got to get our fingerprints off it."

IOW,it was a combination of a solid Republican Party and a handful of quisling, vaccilating, wimpy, cowardly Democrats that combined togetrher to defeat Health Care -- not the Clintons and not majority of the Democratic Party.

That situation hasn't changed either. That's why the GOP gets what it wants in Congress -- no matter WHICH party is in charge.

[dkf]

34. George Mitchell didn't support it. Said it had no chance.

She didn't work with Dems, but instead handed it down basically by decree. And then she couldn't sell it to the public. Sad but true.

[rurallib]

17. Uh - Hillary herself said there was little difference in the two proposals

maybe you missed that?

[depakid]

20. There's a significant difference

in terms of recognizing the fundamental nature of risk pools and adverse selection.

That said, neither plan deals with the underlying problems- and both are doomed to fail for that reason.

My beef here is about being disingenuous with regard to what's being proposed and what might be accomplished. Unlike some, I've managed to retain my ability t think critically, and not blindly hop aboard the bandwagon.

[rurallib]

26. Thank you for the insult!

[depakid]

30. Not meant to be an insult, just an observation

I understand that not everyone is a policy wonk- but at some point, it becomes dysfunctional (and sometimes embarrassing) to misunderstand what your candidate is advocating and why.

[rurallib]

52. While Obama's health care is not exactly what I'd like there is more than one issue

There is not enough of a difference to cause me to support someone who has done all she could to tear the party apart in her grab for power. Were Hillary elected I personally doubt you would be getting the policies she currently espouses. I believe you would be getting more of the welfare reforms, NAFTAs and telecommunications acts that took place in the first Clinton Admin.
If Health care is your big schtik then start working for HR676. Just because Obama says he won't go all the way, no sense in not trying to persuade him. From what I have observed he does listen. He and Edwards.
And you may be a wonk - but most of us here are. And some of us are practical enough to realize that we cannot get everything we want today. BTW, I am working for a health care advocacy group. That group is endorsing Obama.
So because by your own admission, you are much better than I, I will have to put you back on ignore, as I am only an ignorant peasant who does not understand such mighty business concepts.
Buhbye

[Lerrad]

25. Please tell me what the lie was...

I would like to know what he said in Oregon, that was different from what he is proposing or supporting.

[depakid]

39. Calling his plan universal health care is dishonest

ANY WAY YOU LOOK AT IT.

And, as I mention: it was also unnecessary, as the most in the crowd would have eaten up anything he said (which I find somewhat disturbing- but all too typical in America these days).

[Lerrad]

55. Why do you not consider his health care plan universal?

>>My plan begins by covering every American. If you already have health insurance, the only thing that will change for you under this plan is the amount of money you will spend on premiums.

>>Quality, Affordable and Portable Coverage for All
Obama's Plan to Cover Uninsured Americans: Obama will make available a new national health plan to all Americans

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

[Lerrad]

60. Are you speechless?

[cliffordu]

37. Wrong....But thanks for playing. HillaryAin't44 is looking for help...

you could go play over there...

[depakid]

41. My thoughts are that people who post things like this- and make unwarranted assumptions

Need to stay FAR AWAY from political campaigns IRL -because all you'll end up doing is hurting your candidate and cause.

[cliffordu]

43. And you're comparing anything Obama said to the Tuzla sniper

fire lies, mr/mrs. sockpuppet....

[depakid]

46. Some of us know how to think abstractly

which in this case involves the use of analogy and "compare & contrast."

Indeed, one can argue that Obama's "embellishment" is worse, because it's substantive- and reflects on actual policy.

Now, Hillary took a lot shit over her false statements, but the fact remains that the Clinton's policies (aided by Wes Clark) in the Balkans were (eventually) an astounding success- as were many of their foreign policy initiatives.

My guess is that this is why Obama felt the need to praise Bush and Reagan- because he thought it would hurt his campaign to give credit where credit was obviously due.

[cliffordu]

48. BWAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAH Do you have a relevance issue??

[depakid]

49. ???

I have no idea what you're talking about... though I have noticed that people who post objective criticism or analysis are often subject to derision in GDP if one candidate's supporters or another's doesn't like what they're reading.

[cliffordu]

58. Objective criticism requires som basic facts, maybe or a concrete

stance on issues. You have shown none.

Have a nice snack!

[BklynChick]

2. She's in charge of her campaign, her message, and her people. She screwed up period.

[virtualobserver]

3. to be fair to hillary, like Monty Python says,....NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[dkf]

11. She barely got scrutinized.

Except for her pantsuits I guess, which is inane.

[virtualobserver]

14. yes, but she was blindsided by a radically different campaign model

the Dean model to the third power

[dkf]

15. She got blindsided by youtube.

She and Bill aren't used to having video of themselves used against them. Years of being able to say one thing here and exactly the opposite there have turned it into a bad habit.

[roseBudd]

21. What was she thinking when she uttered the Tuzla lie 4 times, there had to be video

[dkf]

36. Look at the video of her talking about it...she's laughing.

She knows she isn't telling the truth, she's telling a tall tale.

[rurallib]

53. That is also true. But Hillary's campaign was and is a mess.

And Obama actually had to have such a miraculous campaign to overcome such a deficit.

[Arugula Latte]

5. She aligned with John McCain and went into the gutter.

"Not a Muslim, as far as I know ..."

Sniper fire.

"SHAME on you, Barack Obama ..."

And on and on and on it went ... until finally it seems to be mercifully coming to a close. Not a second too soon.

[helderheid]

12. In today's Salt Lake Tribune

[dkf]

19. Oh my. That last one is a hoot.

[Tatiana]

23. Oh my that is funny! n/t

[Arugula Latte]

45. That is spot on!

That cartoonist encapsulated her whole nasty campaign in a nutshell.

[Vattel]

27. Do you really believe

that she was trying to suggest that maybe Obama is Muslim? If you saw the interview, then surely you can see that you are reading that into her remarks and that you don't really have good reason to conclude that she was being sneaky. If you can't, you need to learn how to think.

[roguevalley]

35. yes. unlike some, I take people at their word. Saying "as far as I

know" when you know differently is stating, yes, believe it. why do you find it hard to believe what comes out of her mouth?

[Vattel]

62. sorry I didn't make myself clear

my point is that if you think she was deliberately trying to encourage people to think that Obama is Muslim, then you are trying to read her mind, and you should leave mind-reading to the psychics.

[scarletwoman]

38. I saw the interview right when it happened. My jaw dropped when she said that.

I didn't even like Obama at that point, and I was willing to grant that Hillary was probably a fundamentally good and decent person in her own right -- even though I have railed against the Clintons and the DLC for many years.

But that coy little, "as far as I know" was so outrageous, so blatant, it absolutely blew me away. She knew exactly what she was doing with that phrase: sowing doubt and feeding fear.

That's when I realized that she was going to fight dirty. I have zero respect for those kind of repug innuendo tactics, none.

All she would have needed to say is, "Of course, he's not a Muslim!" in a tone that implied what a stupid question it was. But that's not what she did, she accepted the implicit frame (Muslim - OMG!) that the question represented, and made sure to answer ambiguously enough to keep doubts alive.

I don't "need to learn how to think", thank you very much, I can see quite clearly what is right in front of my own eyes.

Peace,
sw

[Arugula Latte]

44. I DID see the interview and of course she was insinuating that, gosh, maybe he WAS a Muslim.

She could have answered "Oh, no, Barack is definitely a Christian. He attends church regularly," or "No, of course he's not a Muslim, and that rumor is a rightwing lie," or any number of ways. But, instead, she gave her sneaky "He's not a Muslim, as far as I know. I'll take him at his word." That to me is a wink, wink, nudge, nudge answer designed to avoid outright denial of the meme in order to keep it going.

[Vattel]

61. Here's the problem

When you say, "that to me is a wink, wink, nudge, nudge answer to avoid outright denial of the meme to keep it going," you are trying to read Clinton's mind. It is especially problematic given that she was adamantly denying that Obama was a Muslim. One cannot reliably read minds.

[Enrique]

6. I'm not pissed she lost

someone has to lose.

Obama's a great nominee.

[Xipe Totec]

8. Are we there yet?

No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?
No. Are we there yet?

[scarletwoman]

33. Oh!

:rofl:

[redwitch]

51. That's me!

Also, "I gotta go to the bathroom". 2 minutes after you pass the last rest stop for 45 miles!

[iamthebandfanman]

10. how dare u suggest people taking responsibility

shame!

hah

[skooooo]

28. here here!!

:rofl:

[kenny blankenship]

13. She's just not a good politician

She never has been a good politician. People make excuses saying she's a "policy wonk" but that's a figleaf. Her instincts are bad and her ear is made of tin. There's actually a good reason for that:
She's a CORPORATE LAWYER, not a politician.

[ecdab]

18. I disagree with the idea that Hillary ran one of the worst campaigns in history.

She ran a very typical campaign. The style of her campaign was conventional and representative of many campaigns that were run before her. It was replete with mistakes - but most of those came after she was already substantially behind.

Obama won this nomination - Obama ran a spectacular campaign - Obama understood going in exactly what he needed to do - Obama redefined how to run a primary campaign. Those things have absolutely nothing to do with Hillary - nothing. Hillary lost because Obama won.

[scarletwoman]

42. I think you've made a very good point. And it makes me very happy to think that we have a new model.

Obama is running a Sun Tzu campaign, very elegant and nimble.

Peace,
sw

[ToddinWI]

63. Good Post

To me, the way the Obam campaign has been managed shows executive skills which are required of the job and contrasts sharply with what has been lacking with Bush.

[Mme. Defarge]

24. I've said the same thing -- a textbook case...

"I have no doubt her campaign will be studied as the finest example of what not to do. And of course the irony is that she will owe money for this campaign probably for years."

[janetblond]

29. Billary's such a 8*tch, I can't stand turning on the TV

If I hear her name one more time, I'm gonna scream.

[Carolina]

32. I feel your pain

I was such an ardent supporter --mainly of him, though I defended her-- in the 1990s. Now I loathe them both and react to them as I do to Bush: mute, off, change channel!

[scarletwoman]

40. Put a sock in it. That language is unacceptable, period.

[Fredda Weinberg]

31. At the end of this day ... I'm happy w/my candidate. Life's not fair

but we keep going. I'm also delighted that Barry left his hateful congregation ... maybe he'll grow up in time for the GE.

[NanceGreggs]

47. The man's name is Barack. n/t

[rurallib]

54. Grow up? To be like Hillary, maybe?

:wtf:
I believe he conducts himself as an adult and he focuses on issues. So is McCain a grownup?

[Catherina]

56. Actually. Here's hoping you'll grow up instead. Fat chance I know n/t

[salguine]

57. You realize that big debt of hers will be paid for her, right?

What we can really hope for now is that she loses her Senate seat too, and just goes the fuck away.

[TexasObserver]

59. Not likely.

She only has a few months to retire the debt or eat the loans she made to her campaign. She'll probably eat at least $11 million of her debt, and maybe more.

Many of the debts will never be paid. She'll get some fundraising help, but not that much. She's going to eat millions, and so are her creditors.