Time to think the unthinkable...

[quark219]

The Unity Bubble is out there, and virtually every pundit is saying that, "When the time comes for the party to come together, Hillary Clinton will work her HEART out for her opponent. I think the Democrats will close ranks very quickly."

That would be nice. But in light of everything I've seen these past two months, I no longer believe it.

So: If Hillary Clinton and her supporters cannot win the nomination, and they are determined to prevent a Democratic victory in November, what do we do? Let's think of this logically, folks, and see the world for what it is: If someone is working tirelessly for your destruction, that person is your enemy.

And so it's time to speak the unspeakable: What should be our strategy if we are facing not one enemy in November (McCain), but two (McCain and Hillary--either working in concert or separately).

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

1. I Know It's Heavy, But Please Remove Your Tin Foil Hat, Ok?

Ridiculous thread. You don't believe it because you're so wrapped up in your own little bubble, that you've lost all sense of reality and reasoning.

She will absolutely work her heart out for a Dem victory in November. Try and get a grip.

[quark219]

6. Hunh?

*I've* lost all sense of reality and reasoning? I've just watched Hillary supporters screaming "McCain 2008" on national television because their candidate didn't get ALL the delegates from a primary where her opponent's name wasn't even on the ballot.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. Take The Hat Off, K?

:crazy:

[quark219]

63. Hey: At least I'm not flinging Michelle Malkin soundbites at fellow Dems... {N/T}

[movonne]

9. Please tell when this will start....and what makes you think that

she will work her little heart out for the dems...when mc cain is president...or will it be after Tues???

[CakeGrrl]

23. Exactly. The problem, and Hillary knows this pretty damned well,

is about her so-called "broad base of support", whom she still has her surrogates whipping up into a frenzy today over the notion that this is being "stolen" from Hillary based on a (flawed) popular vote.

The longer she allows this to go on, regardless of her own personal statements, the harder it will be for her supporters to come to terms.

And Hillary knows this.

She can make whatever conciliatory statement she wants on her own behalf, but if she's sincere about any efforts to unify the party, she needs to convince those whom she's pushed to the brink of fanaticism that the important thing - the best thing for their long-term interests if they even remotely consider themselves "feminist" or "progressive" - is the Democratic ticket, period...NOT just 'Hillary in the White House'.

I'm convinced she's in no hurry whatsoever to brige the divide.

[quark219]

25. Well said. Great post. Thanks! {N/T}

[Growler]

41. Great post!

I wish I could rec it!

[sweetladybug]

14. OPERATIONMINDCRIME, I agree with you. Hillary will work her heart out

for the nominee. There sure are alot of Hillary haters on the DU. I seldom come on the DU because of such hate.
Gayle

[movonne]

46. She sure isn't doing anything to alleviate this situation..she is only

making us dislike her more and more with all this nonsense...

[Genevieve]

65. Um, Ii's not the "Hillary haters on the DU" --

It has to do more with Hillary's track record.

Just click the link in Post #59.

[TwilightGardener]

17. Her surrogates are on national TV claiming women will be upset

because the nomination was "stolen" from Hillary. That doesn't sound like the seeds of "working her heart out", that sounds like the seeds of discord and a convention/general election disaster.

[Changenow]

18. Why do you think so?

Seriously, what in the world would make you think that?

[ecstatic]

31. OMC...when she's telling blatant lies about sexism from Obama, lying about pop vote

Insisting that MI delegates be awarded ONLY to her... and at the same time, riling up millions of bitter women and the "working class"...

And she's doing all this even though it's been clear for months that Obama will maintain the pledged delegate lead (does she really think the SDs can overturn the will of the voters without destroying the party and the process?)...

If she was sincere, she would have fought tooth and nail for the DNC to come up with other options LAST YEAR.

She has lost my trust and the trust of millions of other progressives! Please forgive us if we're no longer willing to give her the benefit of the doubt...

[calmblueocean]

43. If she takes it to the convention, it's too little, too late.

This is sort of like driving a car towards the edge of a cliff, and promising that you'll hit the brakes before it flies off. You can't agitate your supporters for months on end, and then expect them to switch on a dime. She knows that as well as anyone.

[quark219]

44. I agree 100%. Great analogy, too. {N/T}

[goletian]

67. lol, she sold you on that too? hillarys a fuckin fraud. wake up.

[rug]

2. I would think the unthinkable if I could read the unreadable profile.

Flamebait.

[quark219]

11. Point taken. Profile updated. :)

I just joined a little while ago, and I'm still figuring out how this site works so bear with me. I was interested to see that we're both from Pennsylvania.

Although it raises a sensitive topic, my post is not flamebait. I think it's a legitimate question that needs to be asked and thought about.

[WeDidIt]

3. Relax, that's not going to happen.

Tehre is no reason to waste time and energy planning for something that will never happen.

[papapi]

4. Support our candidate and follow his example.

[Thrill]

5. I think she will work hard for him. Trust me. She knows how terrible it will be for everyone

if McCain becomes president and appoints a couple justices. The country as we know will never be the same.

[w13rd0]

8. "She knows how terrible it will be for everyone...

...if McCain becomes president and appoints a couple justices." No, I disagree. I don't think she knows, and if she does know, I don't think she cares. The woes of wee common folk are not the woes of people like the Clintons. They will fare fine no matter who serves as the next President.

No, I do not take it as a given that the Clintons will work to help the Democratic Party. Hell, I'm not even convinced that they would not actively seek to damage the nominee and any downticket dems that didn't toe their line in the nomination process.

[Thrill]

16. McCain goes against everything she has done in her life. I think she will do what is asked

[billyoc]

7. If you succumb to your fears, then the terrorists win.

:rofl:

[Rageneau]

10. Hillary will work to unite the Party. But her supporters won't.

Hillary -- like Bill -- is big enough to overlook the attacks on her character and still work for the good of the Party.

But many Clinton supporters have had it with a Party that seems to be full of Lieberman-types -- people who disrespect the Clintons in public and yet still expect them to contribute their loyalty and energy to the Party.

For a GREAT many formerly active Democratic activists, the behavior of the Obama Campaign -- not BO himself, cause he's too smart to do his own dirty work -- was the last straw.

So you don't need to worry about Hillary. She will not abandon the Party.

But I'm not so sure about people like me.

[cali]

13. so you're petty. bfd.

no matter what I would have vote for Hillary had she won- and I think she's pretty damned dirty.

[GoldieAZ49]

30. you got that right!

Hillary will go through the motions she has to, when she is ready, as a politician, just like Obama has with Wright and Trinity Church.

Political rhetoric does not mean much.

[muryan]

34. I'm sure the McCain camp will be happy to count your vote

I'm also sure that by doing so, you fly in the face that everything Hillary stands for politically. So ask yourself, what would Hillary do?

[GoldieAZ49]

42. I just posted what Hillary would do

I guess you didn't read it.

[PFunk]

12. The answer is simple start getting more indie's and PO'd repugs to replace the rabid Clinton folks.

While many Clinton folks will probally rally around Obama. One should now start to accept the fact that the rabid ones won't (and will probally work against him). So IMP you're not going into 'tin foil' territory for thinking this. Infact one would be stupid for NOT thinking this.

[quark219]

20. Thank you.

Yours is the first post to offer a strategy in response to the queston I raise. I appreciate it. And it does seem that making further inroads into the indie and republican camps is the way to go. But how? E-mail campaigns? New websites that target those camps specifically?

Point of clarification for those other responders saying I'm a Clinton hater: I voted for Bill in 92 and 96 and defended the man every step of the way. Six weeks before the PA primary, I was certain I was going to vote for Hillary.

[MethuenProgressive]

19. "and they are determined to prevent a Democratic victory in November," You read too much DU.

Take everything posted here by the HillHaters with several grains of salt.

[stillcool]

21. Work to get our nominee elected...

Register new voters. It is still our party, even if it is not theirs. I am tired of their threats. We have an election to win.

[quark219]

24. That will certainly help.

I'm guessing that Obama's has more of an ability to draw in new voters ("Change") than Clinton, so new voters seems like a good approach. Along these lines, the Obama compaign needs to figure out how to get young people to the polls like never before.

Some new strategy is needed there because it seems like the young voter turnout--no matter how much hype there is, no matter how many MTV *Rock the Vote* events are held--is always abysmal.

Getting new/young voters into the polls, IMHO, could make or break this election, particularly if there is a solid block of embittered Hillary supporters staying home or voting for McCain.

So to summarize (both your suggestion and PFUNK's)--

1. Work to bring in independents.
2. Work to bring in disaffected Republicans.
3. Work to bring in new voters.
4. Work to get out the youth vote like never before.

If those four things can be done with some real success, it might be enough if we're facing that worst case scenario.

[stillcool]

28. I think sometimes we under-estimate Obama's strengths..

This article appears in the January 1993 issue of Chicago Magazine.
Vote of Confidence
Gretchen Reynolds

A huge black turnout in November 1992 altered Chicago's electoral landscape-and raised a new political star: a 31-year-old lawyer named Barack Obama.
--------------------------------------------------
None of this, of course, was accidental. The most effective minority voter registration drive in memory was the result of careful handiwork by Project Vote!, the local chapter of a not-for-profit national organization. "It was the most efficient campaign I have seen in my 20 years in politics," says Sam Burrell, alderman of the West Side's 29th Ward and a veteran of many registration drives.

At the head of this effort was a little-known 31-year-old African-American lawyer, community organizer, and writer: Barack Obama. The son of a black Kenyan political activist and a white American anthropologist, Obama was born in Hawaii, received a degree in political science and English literature from Columbia University, and, in 1990, became the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review. In 1984, after Columbia but before Harvard, Obama moved to Chicago. "I came because of Harold Washington," he says. "I wanted to do community organizing, and I couldn't think of a better city than one as energized and hopeful as Chicago was then." He went to work for a South Side church-affiliated development group and "was heartened by the enthusiasm." But barely three years later, Washington died, and Obama, convinced he needed additional skills, enrolled at Harvard Law School. The African-American community he left, rent by political divisions and without a clear leader, went into a steep decline. By 1991, when Obama, law degree in hand, returned to Chicago to work on a book about race relations-having turned his back on the Supreme Court clerkship that is almost a given for the law review's top editor-black voter registration and turnout in the city were at their lowest points since record keeping began.
--------------------------------------------
The name Barack Obama surfaced. "I was asking around among community activists in Chicago and around the country, and they kept mentioning him," Newman says. Obama by then was working with church and community leaders on the West Side, and he was writing a book that the publisher Simon & Schuster had contracted for while he was editor of the law review. He was 30 years old.

When Newman called, Obama agreed to put his other work aside. "I'm still not quite sure why," Newman says. ''This was not glamorous, high-paying work. But I am certainly grateful. He did one hell of a job."
-----------------------------------------------------
As for Project Vote! itself, its operations in Chicago have officially closed down. Barack Obama has returned to work on his book, which he plans to complete this month. He also is teaching a class at the University of Chicago law school, and is an attorney at Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland. But he continues to consult with the church, community, and political groups involved in the monumental registration drive. "We won't let the momentum die," he says. "I'll take personal responsibility for that. We plan to hold politicians' feet to the flames in 1993, to remind them that we can produce a bloc of voters large enough that it cannot be ignored."

Nor can Obama himself be ignored. The success of the voter-registration drive has marked him as the political star the Mayor should perhaps be watching for. "The sky's the limit for Barack," says Burrell.

Some of Daley's closest advisers are similarly impressed. "In its technical demands, a voter-registration drive is not unlike a mini-political campaign," says John Schmidt, chairman of the Metropolitan Pier and Exposition Authority and a fundraiser for Project Vote! "Barack ran this superbly. I have no doubt he could run an equally good political campaign if that's what he decided to do next."

Obama shrugs off the possibility of running for office. "Who knows?" he says. "But probably not immediately." He smiles. "Was that a sufficiently politic 'maybe'? My sincere answer is, I'll run if I feel I can accomplish more that way than agitating from the outside. I don't know if that's true right now. Let's wait and see what happens in 1993. If the politicians in place now at city and state levels respond to African-American voters' needs, we'll gladly work with and support them. If they don't, we'll work to replace them. That's the message I want Project Vote! to have sent."

[quark219]

29. Great article. Thanks for posting it.

It is absolutely true that Obama has shown a strong ability to motivate voters and a lot of political savvy. I remember when I first read about his campaign's use of hairstyling salons as bases of operation for connecting with female black voters--simply brilliant. That's the kind of thinking that has allowed his campaign to triumph against an opponent who, out of the gate, had every advantage in terms of name recognition, money, and connections.

I just hope Obama can continue to muster that magic of his into the fall. His primary performances of late have been a little underwhelming. And if Clinton continues to work against him in the general election (God forbid), he'll need to be on the top of his game.

[roseBudd]

58. With Obama as the nominee we are going to have increased turnout as we have already seen

among African Americans. Between now & November we need to

1. Educate first time voters. In Ohio, GOP controlled County offices have been caught disseminating misinformation regarding former felon voting rights. Many former feloens are not aware that they can vote and thus are not registered. We need flyers about this issue, not in DMVs but in Barber and Beauty Shops. Owners of African Ameruican businesses can be counted on to post pro Democratic candidate flyers.

2. Register as many voters as you can between now and the deadline. I like to stake out bus stops for voter registration.

3. Hit the pavement. In Ohio for instance Democratic voter walk lists are not reflective of the actual likely democratic voters because unless someone has formally registered or asked for a Democratic ballot in a primary they aren't counted as Democrats.

[thoughtcrime1984]

22. You are hearing the loudest, boorest supporters.

They are not representative of the masses, IMO. There will be, for the most part, unity in the Democratic Party.

[Taxmyth]

26. So what's the big deal?

I see so many Obama supporters at DU arguing that Senator Clinton and anyone that supports her is a Republican anyway. Surely he has enough solid support to win the GE on his own without any help from Senator Clinton and what few supporters she has, right?

[quark219]

27. I'm afraid you've lost me there...

I'm a little confused by your post there. Hmmmmm.

I, for one, don't think HRC is a closet Republican or anything close to it. Nor do I think her supporters are (excluding, of couse, Rush Limbaugh's "Operation Chaos" operatives).

Left to his own devices, I think McCain will lose this election. The tide of history is against him: $4 gas, weak economy, unpopular war, and an enormously unpopular president of his own party that's been in office two terms. I think the polls showing a close election are way, way off.

What concerns me is what will happen if Clinton decides to run as an independent or if she decides to continue to work behind the scenes against Obama. Aided by Clinton, I do think McCain could win the election.

And that's the worst case scenario that my original post addresses.

[pnorman]

32. AS distasteful to my personal beliefs as it may be, until the election is over

and the winner is clearly established, I will NOT take seriously ANYONE with a suspiciously LOW posting count.

pnorman

[quark219]

37. Understood.

Can't say that I blame you. Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do to move back the date on which I finally began to post here (instead of just sitting back and reading).

[grassfed]

33. Support the Obama Registration Drive

[Medusa]

35. Like she worked her "heart" out for

Kerry? The Clintons lived in mortal fear JOhn Kerry would win the GE in 2004 because they were setting up for 2008. It's utter bullshit to think that as embittered and angry as she is that she will work her heart out for Obama (news to me she had a heart).

[sufrommich]

36. I often wonder what some here would do

without the pretend drama of the internets.In a GD-P reduced to thread after thread of silly,vitriolic hyperbole and over the top hand wringing,this one may be the best yet.

[quark219]

40. You know, I have to take you on.

That is way off-base.

"Silly, vitriolic hyperbole"? Where in my original post have I made any use of "silly, vitriolic hyperbole"? Please feel free to quote liberally.

"Over the top hand wringing"? Considering the behavior or the Clinton campaign over the past three months, how can you possibly suggest it's "over the top" to suggest that maybe, just maybe, Hillary Rodham Clinton has no genuine desire to see a Democrat-other-than-her in the White House in 2009?

[sufrommich]

48. "Take me on" all you want...

I call saying Clinton is "determined to prevent a Democratic victory in November " or "working tirelessly for your destruction" silly,vitriolic hyperbole.I also call "What should be our strategy if we are facing not one enemy in November (McCain), but two (McCain and Hillary--either working in concert or separately)"over the top hand wringing.
I tell you what,I'll bookmark this thread,and we'll see if Hillary joins ranks with McCain or in any way campaigns against Obama as the democratic presidential candidate.I'll say the odds are against your OP not looking completely ridiculous.

[quark219]

52. Fair enough :)

A couple points, however, in response:

(1) The first quote of mine you use leaves off the "if" that preceded it. That's a big distinction. In light of what we saw yesterday and today, I think it would be foolish (as another poster has stated) NOT to raise the question, "What do we do IF it turns out Hillary Clinton is opposed to any Democrat winning the White House that isn't her?" That's the whole point of my original post.

(2) Regarding the bookmarking of the thread, that's a good idea. If I had to place odds, I'd bet that Hillary Clinton will mouth the words "party unity" at some point very late in the game--and work behind the scenes to damage the Obama campaign, in a fashion similar to what she and her husband did to Kerry in 2004.

[Genevieve]

59. Will Hillary, in any way campaign against Obama

or join ranks with McCain? Yes, Undoubtedly. Explain this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg


Yet, she still has the gall to call herself a "Democrat".

[quark219]

60. Bingo!

Thanks for posting the clip. My original post has been called "ridiculous" and "over the top," and I've been told I'm wearing a tin foil hat.

Yet we're all supposed to imagine that Hillary Rodham Clinton is getting ready--any minute now--to join hands with Obama and "work her heart out" for him.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

If history's any guide, at some point very, very late in the game, Hillary will mouth the words "party unity"--and then do little or nothing to assist an Obama campaign. And as seen in the clip you've posted, there's a very real chance she'll work to undermine Obama. After all, she's already publicly stated that she thinks McCain is more qualified than he is.

[Genevieve]

64. Some people have very short memories!

:hi:

[anonymous171]

38. Two words: Hagel VP.

[quark219]

49. Good thought.

From what I'm reading on the Web, he would almost certainly bring over a fair share of disaffected Republicans, which would advance Strategy #2 for an Obama victory.

1. Work to bring in independents.
2. Work to bring in disaffected Republicans.
3. Work to bring in new voters.
4. Work to get out the youth vote like never before.

[anonymous171]

50. Yep. Since white women are part of the traditional coalition, we would need to bring in more white

males, traditionally a conservative demographic stronghold.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. This Hagel

Voted YES on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on barring HHS grants to organizations that perform abortions. (Oct 2007)
Voted NO on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
Voted YES on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
Voted YES on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. (Mar 2003)
Voted YES on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000)
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)
Voted YES on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998)
Rated 0% by NARAL, indicating a pro-life voting record. (Dec 2003)
Rated 100% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-life stance (190 members). (Dec 2006)



Voted YES on recommending Constitutional ban on flag desecration. (Jun 2006)
Voted NO on adding sexual orientation to definition of hate crimes. (Jun 2002)
Voted YES on loosening restrictions on cell phone wiretapping. (Oct 2001)
Voted NO on expanding hate crimes to include sexual orientation. (Jun 2000)
Voted NO on setting aside 10% of highway funds for minorities & women. (Mar 1998)
Voted YES on ending special funding for minority & women-owned business. (Oct 1997)
Supports anti-flag desecration amendment. (Mar 2001)
Rated 60% by the ACLU, indicating a mixed civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
Issue a commemorative postage stamp of Rosa Parks. (Dec 2005)
Rated 0% by the HRC, indicating an anti-gay-rights stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 11% by the NAACP, indicating an anti-affirmative-action stance. (Dec 2006)


http://www.ontheissues.org/Chuck_Hagel.htm

[anonymous171]

53. It's plan B in case of a mass pot banger defection.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. I'd Rather Have A Colonoscopy Without An Anesthetic Than Vote For A Homophobe

~

[quark219]

56. *LOL*... Okay, maybe we need to rethink the whole Hagel thing :) {N/T}

[MattBaggins]

66. So your not voting for McCain

Good to know you will be supporting the Dem candidate.

[apocalypsehow]

39. For the longest time now, this has been all about 2012 for HRC. She's going to do everything she can

to sabotage Obama's campaign between now and November.

[barack the house]

45. Wiser not to assume enemies but work for friends.

[quark219]

47. I admire the spirit of your post, but...

...at what point do you recognize that Hillary Clinton has no intention of being Obama's friend?

[Beregond2]

54. How anyone could possibly believe Hillary

will work hard for Obama's election is beyond me. If she gave a damn about anything but her own ambitions, she would have stopped her own campaign WHEN SHE LOST, IN FEBRUARY. This is self-evident. Oh, she may say the right words, and put-in a token effort, but her supporters will know she doesn't mean it, and will take away the real message: "Aren't I a wonderful woman for being such a sport, when I was ROBBED of this nomination?" They will not vote, or vote for McCain, and pin all their hopes on 2012. By then, of course, it will be too late to save our constitutional democracy, not to mention our environment, but hey, they finally have a WOMAN in the White House, who will wave her magic wand and make all their dreams come true.

[Zavulon]

57. Hillary doesn't care about anyone but herself - not you, not me, not any constituent.

I can't see her actively sabotaging Obama, but the idea that she'll bust her ass to help Obama is just as ridiculous as the OP is accused of being.

Maybe nobody here remembers Bill Clinton's lukewarm speech in "favor" of John Kerry at the 2004 convention? I didn't see a lot of effort to help an DOTH (Democrat other than Hillary) there, either.

Hillary wants to be president. An Obama win would likely set her back eight years instead of four. She's not going to do anything but symbolic gestures to help him, period. Work her heart out? Bust her ass? Not happening.

[VotesForWomen]

61. please find out how the nominating process works. Saint Obama is not the nominee. nt

[quark219]

62. It's a matter of delegates. Obama's won the majority. Give it up already. {N/T}

[GoesTo11]

68. I wonder what kind of deal she made with the Republicans.

Right around mid-February, something changed. Rush called for donations to her and she started getting big internet inflows. Rush called for people to vote for her, and they did and tipped a few states. She and McCain started with coordinated attacks, and sharing advisors, and she was talking with Rove.

Ever since, she has been acting more consistently with the theory that she wants McCain to win than with any other theory.

Why?

Supreme Court Justice maybe? 2012 - with RW support maybe? Maybe pull a Lieberman and run as an R who pulls a lot of Ds?

I don't know what happened, but something's very fishy.