I won't vote for McCain and I won't vote for Obama

[blues90]

and I'm not a hillary supporter. what I am is sick of media picked candidates and all the bashing and name calling going on.

I don't follow crap like Hope and change as I did not follow the flower power over done crap in the 60's.

All of these candidates are corporate bought and all will do nothing to change what damage has been done.

Dean has completely screwed this election up with his rules.

People seem to think that all their name calling will now all be forgotten and the party will heal. That's crap as well.

People who display this sort of behavior make me sick to death and I want nothing to do with anyone of them. You are not adults or educated nore do you have free will or control.

To call anyone a fucking whore is as low and classless as one can be , it is not funny and never will be. It only displays the lack of a control and use of a language when one cannot think of words to reason with.

It has gotten to the point where I can't tell a 14 year old from a 60 year old if I read many of these posts.

I really have to wonder still who of the 70% of this country who were all for attacking Iraq are now for Obama or Hillary and what it was that got them to reach this point, what happened , they did not wake up or learn so what is left, is that they were finally hit in a bad way by the bush admin.

The way people put all their focus in these primaries only shows me that one more attack no matter what it may be will bring them right back into fear mode once again.

What are you going to do if there are no elections come Nov?

[Bicoastal]

1. Man, no pleasing some people.

[Ian David]

2. Kyle can go fuck himself. n/t

[MercutioATC]

3. Interesting choice of avatars, considering the second line of your OP.

...just sayin'...

[Ravy]

What? That isn't Jesus? nt

[MercutioATC]

18. No, it's the guy that's "more popular than Jesus"

I haven't heard Obama make that claim yet...

[Ravy]

25. Yah, I get 'em confused sometimes. nt

[Hoof Hearted]

152. Give him time. Jesus will end up under the bus too.

[Tatiana]

9. Was thinking the same thing

Imagine?

:shrug:

[rurallib]

36. lol

"imagine there's no hope; no changes, too"
"imagine all the people having nothing to hope for"

[blues90]

37. Show me where Lennon was flower power .

He was about finding peace and reality not the hype and insanity.

[newmajority]

41. OK, since you asked...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLxTpsIVzzo

[MercutioATC]

46. Damn! Beat me to it!

:hippie:

[blues90]

57. That is not flower power . How about I don't believe in

Fill in the blanks? How about just power to the people? Or just give me some truth?

[newmajority]

72. So he's sitting in a studio, surrounded by flowers, singing "All You Need is LOVE"

and that isn't "flower power"??

Hell, that's probably where the phrase originated from.

[Genevieve]

61. ........

:thumbsup: :)

[lumpy]

84. How I miss the spirit of those days.

Where has all that love gone?

[MessiahRp]

125. Most of the anti-war hippy idealists of the 60s became the selfish Reagan Democrats

Me, Me, Me.... greed overruled idealism.

Man are the Baby Boomers the biggest disappointment ever.

Rp

[blues90]

154. where do you get your info?

and why a photo of Kerry then?

[MessiahRp]

172. I said "Most" not "All".

Kerry's one of the great ones.

Besides someone who said, "I don't follow crap like Hope and change as I did not follow the flower power over done crap in the 60's." while having John Lennon as their avatar dare not speak of being poorly informed by their inferences.

Rp

[blues90]

181. what the hell do you know about the 60's ?

Did you live through those times or is this just your take based on what is fed to you by people who think as you do?

The hippy flower power thing was a small group in San Francisco it was not Lennon who came up with this. He had his way of promtion peace and trying to tell people they had the power to change or end the war if they wanted it.

It is the same thing with any form of cult following . Lennon knew well that the crowds who went nuts when they performed was not what he was about so they stopped performing live , it only lasted a few years when they stopped live performances in 1966. He grew up and admitted it. But in now way was he the founder of the hippy movement. That was an entire different mindset. Just like the mod period was all media promoted crap.

When you say most this comes very close to all , not some. This is where you are way off base.

I don't support mass anything or group think or cults or any such form of mind control. I know it when I see it.

[JackRiddler]

210. Kerry? It's Max Headroom, I thought.

[Oak2004]

219. Not true... it's a lot more complicated than that

Most of the "political heavies" I know remained involved in the progressive side of politics in some way. Look around, you'll find plenty of them here and elsewhere, older, more experienced, but still fighting the good fight.

On the other hand, many of the "counterculture" people moved on a much more me-me-me trajectory, moving through the new age movement, or the human potential movement, or to evangelical Christianity via the "Jesus freaks". Many on this trajectory end up in some sort of "if you're poor you deserve it, if you're pure you get rich" type of cult (for lack of any better word), such as "Prosperity Theology" or "The Secret".

The biggest bunch of boomers were, of course, neither political heavies nor involved in the counterculture. They were squares, apolitical, not interested in the counterculture except to the extent of borrowing some of the fashion and music. Their trajectories look nearly indistinguishable from that of their parents (except that they may have been better educated). Many of them became Republicans. Some of them are running this country right now (running it into the ground, but...)

Where you fell, age wise, determined a lot about what you were. The younger boomers are nearly indistinguishable from X-ers, and like X-ers voted Republican in large numbers. The older boomers had a much higher percentage of political heavies and counterculture folks (collectively called "hippies" by the popular press).

[nebula]

137. It died along with JFK, RFK, MLK, Lennon, etc.

all of the left's icons had been murdered and most of the spirit and movement died along with them. as Bush would say, "Mission Accomplished."

[stray cat]

4. There will be an election and those who show up to vote will decide it

and everyone else will be stuck with the outcome decided by the voters. Al Gore would have been better than George Bush or do you disagree - I know longer think they are all the same. I learned something from the last 4 years.

[roguevalley]

86. If you don't vote, don't complain. just STFU because you will have

no say that means anything. there. your nihilism is complete.

[Crazy Dave]

Do you ever take a stand on anything then?

Or do you just sit back and complain about everything?

[blues90]

35. Absolutley , I take a stand .

I just did. Just because i don't follow the rainbow you might does not rule out principals.

It's either black or white with many people and I choose reality and balance, not whatever seems to be on sale this week.

This primary is new alright , it's now hit an all time low in the mentality of the population.

I guess after 8 years of bush low standards and anything goes is acceptable.

[roguevalley]

89. hey, sanctimonious, its principles, not principals. Don't hide your snit in

high principles. You are abandoning your country at her hour of need and so you have nothing to say to me that matters.

[earth mom]

108. The U.S. has already been taken over by the corporations that Hillary Obama & McCain already serve.

Get a clue.

The U.S. as we all knew it is GONE-HISTORY.

You can go ahead and sell your soul to the devil, but some of us still give a damn about doing the right thing.

[blues90]

111. I am not speaking to you . I don't care if what I say matters to you

You are the one who came here and added your insulting comments and now I should have any sort of respect for someone like you .

You dig for spelling errors and this is what you stand on as some sort of power trip.

I voiced my opinion, you don't like it, so? I would not call what I have high principles , I don't resort to name calling to get my point across , if this is sanctimonious than so be it.

Hour of need , how about decades of need?

[dbmk]

107. Reality is going with whats in front of you and making a pick

You are the one thats making it black/white with your view.

[blues90]

113. That's your definition of reality.

This entire thing is not reality, it's man made in setting just like global warming. The reality is mans greed and progress.

[Goblinmonger]

182. Don't bogart that J, dude. n/t

[Butch350]

5. SO...it's your vote...

Use it like you want!

[Thrill]

6. Do what ever the hell you want. But blame yourself when the country continues in the shitter

But then again. Wonder how many are kicking them self for voting for Bush TWICE or Nadar

[PretzelWarrior]

7. no problem. you'll join the 50% of America that doesn't participate.

[virtualobserver]

8. So you are voting for Nader, then?

[PoliticalAmazon]

63. Don't forget Bob Barr. He will siphon off a chunk of GOPers....

Actually, I think it's a good thing for the GOP. There are many GOP voters who won't vote for McCain, Hillary or Obama. Bob Barr is basically an old-school Goldwater Republican, and that will be a good fit for many GOP voters.

If Barr siphons enough off of the GOP voter base, it hopefully will send a wake-up call to the RNC.

I think Obama and his supporters have sent a wake-up call to the DNC, and I think our party will be better (certainly more responsive to its voters) because of it.

[mzmolly]

10. So the media voted for Obama in record numbers?

That's interesting. :eyes:

[Iceburg]

51. Yup ...the same sales staff who promoted the Iraq war /nt

[mzmolly]

71. Really? I now support Obama yet marched against the war.

As did many Obama supporters I imagine?

Does the name Reverend Wright ring a bell? How about the weeks focusing on his controversial sermons? What was a like controversy about Hillary that was discussed in this campaign?

Hillary Clinton was the presumptive nominee until Obama came along and kicked her political rear end. ;)

[azmouse]

11. Waaaaahhh... the world isn't perfect.

I'm sorry you're so willing to throw your vote away because life and the world aren't perfect for you.

[still_one]

12. Dean screwed it up? Bullshit. Maybe you should look at the Clinton camp who helped write the rules

I am one who was against Iraq from the start

I am also one who realizes that the Supreme Court is at stake

Stevens and Ginsberg will most likely step down in the next four years

You think it doesn't matter, just wait. Corporations will become more entrenched in the government. Civil rights and gender rights, will be thrown out the door

If you cannot see the difference between the issues mccain stands on verses the Democrats, that is quite sad

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blues90]

26. your response is a prime example of what I am talking about.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blues90]

39. No, it is typical responses in attack mode such as yours

Do you actually think for one second I don't know where you are coming from or what your game is?

[roguevalley]

91. that ax swings both ways. we know why you are here too and that

you are either a nihilistic whiner or a troll disrupting. unlike you, we CHERISH our franchise. We know what it cost to have it. People like you are cowards. If you aren't going to vote, fine. Just don't come here and plop that cow pat down here and expect a free ride.

[blues90]

119. This really bugs you doesn't it ?

You talk of we , and just who are the we you speak of? You are the cowards who all jump on anyone who has a different opinion and instead of just expressing that you go on the attack, that is a coward.

So far you have said nothing that makes any real arguement. All you are doing is raging because you can't handle the fact that someone does not think just like you.

I don't expect a free ride . This is a forum , I expect all the bashing you can hand out but this does not make your position valid or mine invalid.

I have voted the Dem party for many years , it to me is no longer the Dem party in it's values. Now you want to be called progressives.

[illumn8d]

189. Go back and read your OP

That was in attack mode, too. I will give you credit for not name-calling, but it was an attack.

[roguevalley]

90. so, you don't like the responses? its a free world. don't come and

post an opinion on an OPINION board and expect a free ride. Since no one is on your side, you might want to do some introspection. this isn't about YOU. this is about the country and the world and all the vulnerable people who DEPEND upon us to make change. if that doesn't include you, fine. don't be surprised if you find your wishes fulfilled.

[blues90]

120. How many ways are you going to continue to say the same thing?

[dionysus]

175. prime example of cali pwning you hard actually...

:rofl:

[blues90]

183. Then you are just as blind as the rest .

Attacks get you no where because they are a lazy childish way and a lost attempt to be rational. It's real easy to come off with a remark as if it really means anything at all. It takes thought to come up with an actual argument. The easiest thing to do is come up with one liner empty remarks and then post some silly little laughing icon in a post.

[dionysus]

184. hey, you're the crybaby here. you forfeit your right to vote, you forfeit your right to complain

[blues90]

191. Since I was born in this country and voted ever since I was old enough

To do so , then I have every right to challenge the political realm and complain when I feel things are out of control. I have the right not to vote for people I feel do not represent this country , so don't come off with that old worn out you don't have a right to complain crap.

Go tell that to the representatives who vote present which is not voting at all either.

[H2O Man]

42. You find more good

in the OP than I could.

[graywarrior]

14. The egos around here are really getting out of control.

It's not about one person, it's about the country, in fact it's about the entire rest of the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. I'd stop at our borders, we are not an Empire any longer

:-)

And thank goodness for that

[graywarrior]

38. Whomever we elect will have an effect on the rest of the world.

[newmajority]

199. The Iraqi people might argue that with you

:evilfrown:

[blues90]

60. No , Shit , tell me something I don't know.

Just for your information and not that it matters but I have spent enough years dealing with wars and politics to know when things are far out of control. They have been for many years and each politican who has been in office just starting with Reagan alone has made what better?

I voted enough times holding my nose. I voted in 2006 and went along with the crap that the Dems would end this occupation , has it ended , no , it has gotten worse. They can't even be bothered to listen to the people once they get their position. Tell me I'm wrong , I'd really like to hear it.

I don't hear anything from any of these candidates that indicates to me that they will do one bit better.

I have seen movies where script writers have written just as good as or better speechs as any one of these candidates so words don't mean a damn thing to me anymore , actions do and when I see a change come then I will eat my words.

Once one of these candidates gets the office then actually does something I will then believe it.

This is not about me, it is about candidates lying to the people and not doing their job since after all they do work for the people but you would never know this based on their actions now would you?

[roguevalley]

93. you act like you figured it out first. Some of us can actually

remember the Old Republic and have never given up working toward restoring it. You can write all the treacle you want and say anything about yourself that suits your self image but the bottom line is, when your country needs you most, you are deserting her. Every vote counts. Period.

[blues90]

106. Calling me an ass does nothing and proves nothing other

Display your own personal problem.

You are free to do whatever you damn well please but don't ever get the idea you have the right or the invitation to tell anyone other than your children if you have them, what the hell they should do.

You are so bent on forcing your opinion that you don't even understand what I am saying. I am not the one who deserted this country because I don't trust politicians and their words , they are the ones who have allowed the constitution to be shreaded and did it willfully.

I have one vote and they made the choice to toss not only mine to the side but yours as well.

Deserted my country, my ass.

"You can write all the treacle you want and say anything about yourself that suits your self image " I could very easily say the exact same thing about you or anyone else here. I don't , I don't go off with the rage and anger tantrum you have done here. I voiced my thought's and opinion but since they clash with your opinions mine are void according to you and others.

Every vote count's , well really , if this were so than how is it that in 2000 and 2002 and 2004 and 2006 many were not? Do you think this time will be any different? we still have the damn black box machines and have since they were tested in the entire state of Georgia in 2002 and what has been done about this by the house and the Dems. All the effort has been from the people who took it upon themselves to act.

This is just another very important issue that is ignored still to this day, one only a very few talk about as if it just went away.

People are still being turned away from voting
and now there are all sorts of ID people don't have that are required. So don't tell me every vote counts , only the ones counted count not everyone gets to vote. And the ones counted , who the hell knows who you actually voted for was the one you chose?

[roguevalley]

110. you did. you desert the country in its hour of need if you don't vote

and not voting because OTHERS DON'T HAVE A VOTE is bs. you are either a drama queen or a sad sack. Not voting because of the voting issue problem is bullshit. drama queen.

[blues90]

122. Man , I did not say I was not voting because others can't .

Can you read or not? Drama my ass. If you're so confident in Obama then why on earth are you so bent because I don't happen to buy into anyone of these candidates claims?

[Lerrad]

143. Excuse me...

>>I don't go off with the rage and anger tantrum you have done here.

I have been following this thread with interest and you have gone off with rage and anger from your very first post.

[blues90]

158. I look at my post as expressing disgust about what I see.

I expressed that, which is how I feel where it is quite easy for people to ignore. People here have some idea that any post they don't agree with is a target for their personal attacks.

I am not buying the political hype. I don't like gang mentality.

My post does not display any of the personal attacks I have got for posting it.

I don't expect anything, I am just sick of the remarks people post on this forum when someone does not agree. I can find people on my own block that might not feel at all the way I do but I would pass it off.

I'm not here to change anyone , this has never been my purpose in life.

You can look at what i said anyway you want. That is your right and I respect that.

This forum does say general discussion primaries. It does not say for Obama supporters only or Hillary supporters only.

Discussion does not mean personal attack free-for-all either. It is DU and I am still a registered Democrat who is completely sick of tactics.

[Lerrad]

171. I agree, and understand your frustration. n/t

[Texasgal]

114. You do realize that whomever takes

office this november will have a hell of a job trying to right all the wrongs inflicted by the Bush admin... right?

I mean changes are not going to happen overnight, as much as we would like it to... it just ain't gonna happen. Eight years of one bozo will cost us a lifetime of cleaning up.

You are either on board or not, that is your right as an American. :shrug:

[blues90]

124. I am well aware of the state of everything in this country

I know it will take decades to even begin to fix this disaster.

The only difference is I don't feel any of these candidates are the ones who can do what is needed. If you do,I have not told you not to vote or have I implied this. If I did I would have said so.

Peoples idea on this forum is you are not on board if you are not for Obama. So I should just go along because now in 2008 this is the thing to do.

Well we would not be here if the people who now are going out full bore about Obama were fighting against all the crimes the bush admin has committed. We would not be here if 70% of the people were not for this war. Now that it's all so very screwed up and Obama has been made into a super human I am supposed to just buy into this new hope. WEll I don't see this new hope. I see a push for the popular who was made popular because of the push. I see the only way to praise him is to de-grade the others.

I see people who over decades that I've beem around become more greedy and self absorbed , more poor , more homeless and more lies than ever before.

This is what has to change and this is something Obama cannot change.

The insults I have got on this thread alone only prove this more to me than before.

If people choose to attack and insult and bash and call someone names because of a difference in choice and opinion then what does this tell you about the people who are out voting , that is if this forum has any relation to the people out there voting for Obama or Hillary.

I have had enough of smear campaigns and now it's the people doing the smearing not just the politicians. Have the politicians become the people or the people the politicians?

[Texasgal]

174. I thing you are being a tad too sensitive.

I honestly do not care for whom you vote/sit out/write in... whatever, you are an American, this is your right.

I for one refuse to sit at home and not do anything, I just cannot. I don't see Obama as the great "messiah". I can think for myself thank you very much. There are many of us that are not mindless dolts. My opinion is just as valid as yours. I also have strong feelings about what has happpend.

Have you ever heard the expression that you "have to start somewhere?" Bottom line, it is high time that we start to fix this mess.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

If we just throw our hands up and say to hell with it, I fear that we will be in for a big surprise in the coming years. :shrug:

[DaDooRonRon]

129. Well,well. well - who'd a thunk I'd find another kindred spirit

Dear blues90,

You're absolutely correct in everything you say.

The candidates are nothing more than Corporate Red and Corporate Blue. No one here who fawns over Obama has done a shred of research on his advisers, his policies ("I will work to get all non-combat troops out of Iraq" - gee, guess that means we'll still have a presence there, eh?), his contributors (anyone realize that Obama is #3 on the Exxon-Mobil list of who gets their contributions), his laughable "no lobbyist money" pledge (read the fine print, there's a hole big enough to drive a bus through),etc.

No need to even discuss Clinton - hell, Obama is E.V. Debs compared to her.

Some folks here will try and run that bullshit that if YOU vote for someone other than the party-approved pre-determined savior then YOU are at the root of the downfall of democracy, as if they (by doing everything in their power to marginalize true outside the mainstream progressive candidates) aren't leading the demolition team. Some here still cling to the tired "it's the Supreme Court, stupid" line, as if either side will give up its meal ticket (this just in: Bush had 8 years to kill Roe v. Wade. He didn't even bring a test case up. Even he isn't stupid enough to kill the mother of all wedge issues).

You're not wrong, and they won't listen. They don't have to. As long as they have passionate followers who still believe that one side is Satin and one side is Shit we will get nowhere. We'll change the curtains in the living room and everyone will think the house is just like new.

Of course the house is still falling down and the contractors are taking kickbacks and pocketing the money, but what the hell.

Let's just stare at the curtains and pretend.

[End Of The Road]

130. Great post, thanks. nt

[October]

157. Wow. Awesome post.

Sad, but true.

I'm so weary of how divided this party has become. Never thought I'd see such a deep divide in our Party. It's heartbreaking how ugly it has become. While I'm glad we don't walk in lockstep like the GOP, this lack of unity is ridiculous.

[BlooInBloo]

15. Did you model for that Vanity Fair article "The Cynic"?

:rofl:

[democracy1st]

16. Take care man,time to move forward

[dkf]

17. Sounds like you are not voting?

Or maybe voting for Bob Barr?

[AllentownJake]

19. Wow the world isn't perfect

and we are the children :shrug:

[Doityourself]

21. Okay

[blm]

22. That 'rule' you blame on Dean was set up by Clinton loyalists in 2003-4. McAuliffe and Ickes

were part of the set up of the 'rule' you want to blame Dean for. You blame Dean for the 2003-4 rule that the STATE CHAIRS voted to KEEP in place.

Try blaming ACCURATELY - TeamClinton set up this entire problem because they thought in 2006 they could use the problems that would arise from a controversy to push Dean out as DNC chair. You'd have to be an utter fool to not see it happening after Nov2006 when thet first tried to push Dean out as chair. A few of us predicted this trumped up controversy back then and Clintons proved us EXACTLY RIGHT, especially obvious after she didn't win Super Tuesday.

Blame YOURSELF for looking thru a narrow tunnel on this.

[kitfalbo]

40. Logic

Logic does not work with these type of people. They make their false assumptions outside of facts. Then when told the facts 99% of them will plug their ears and sing LA LA LA LA LA LA LA! Maybe this person will be the 1% who can look at something truthfully and make a better choice. But I find it highly unlikely.

[blm]

104. I have lost patience for Clinton devotees who haven't cared about the years of SABOTAGE Clintons

have performed against the Dem party, its candidates and its voters for YEARS as they actively protected BushInc at every turn.

[high density]

23. The media picked Obama...

Yeah, that's it: The guy that had to quit his church thanks to the media has been picked by the media..

[blues90]

55. Did I say the media just picked Obama ?

Did you even read what I said or are you just another over reactionary Obama supporter? I said the media picked the candidates.

[roguevalley]

95. Kiss old barr for us. I am SURE he will meet every criteria your

trembling heart requires.

[anonymous171]

24. Write-in?

[Catherina]

27. Fine It's your vote. Do with it what you want but why bore everyone

with your hissyfit :shrug:

[Liberal Veteran]

30. I think I can sum it up like this.

[blues90]

43. Look , no one forced to to read this did they?

You display your lack of self control just by responding.

All it tkaes to get what seems to be mostly Obama supporters to creap out of the wood work and once again force their opinions on others is a post that you don't agree with and I get it's not a perfect world.

I know this, no kidding , when you find one let everyone know.

[Catherina]

56. Lack of self control lol.

Look buddy, You're the one on a discussion board thinking YOUR sour grapes are good enough to fascinate everyone.

Get over it. They're not. They're as boring as hell. Do you seriously think the world turns around your one piddly-assed grapes?
:yawn:

LMAO!

[habitual]

75. Absolutely agreed!!!

take your damn ball and go home already.

[roguevalley]

96. Learn to spell. that said, this is a PUBLIC FORUM and you cannot

expect to come and take a poo and not have everyone else comment on the smell. No one is forcing opinions. They are commenting on yours because this is a PUBLIC FORUM and you obviously want discussion or you wouldn't have posted it. Right? Right? Right.

[blues90]

132. Obviously you have not read all the replies

Don't tell me opinions are not being forced. This is not a discussion, perhaps in your world it is, not in mine.

I voiced my own opinion and if anyone wants to ask why it may be I feel this way or has something to add or say with any disagreement welcome, then fine.

This is not what this is. You are part of the insult team, one who does not want to discuss but instead insult and add more distance than there was before.

Hell I can almost picture each of you here and yes I have seen all your names many times before , PM'ing each other just to do as you have done since there were two candidates left standing.

You don't want , desire or know what discussion is, this has never been your intent.

The simple matter is , you don't like my view and this is fine, but you can't express just that, you feel the need to continue on saying the exact same thing over and over like a broken record. You are consistent and persistent , that i will give you. But I will never agree with your view and this was not my intent of this post. This was my own person view and I don't need attention on a forum of people I will never see, but I have every right to express myself as you do and do it without the attacks.

[Liberal Veteran]

28. Your petulance just embiggens my vote.

:rofl:

[WeDidIt]

29. I guess you won't be on DU much longer either, huh?

Seeing as how the shit you just spewed runs counter to the very reason for this site existing and all.

[AZBlue]

So you're ok with 4 more years of Bush?

There will be an election and the two choices will be Obama & McCain.
Even abstaining is a vote for McCain. Inaction = action when it comes to elections. And McCain is just like Bush.
It may not be the choices you wanted to have, but these are the only choices before you.

[Buzz Clik]

31. Not voting Democrat, eh? Whatever.

I'll put this thread under the rug, thank you.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blues90]

47. Now there is a real intelligent response and class too.

You have all your old and worn out and lame talking points all in order, good for you.

[zulchzulu]

80. So why are you even interested in politics? Seriously?

I've run into Doom and Gloomers like you that think it doesn't matter...blah...blah..blah...

It's the same fucking dumbass argument people made when they voted for Nader in 2000 over voting for Gore. Look what fucking happened... yes, there is a difference... if you have a brain.

[roguevalley]

98. I thought Zilchzulu was hilarious. In fact, I sent ZZ a pm telling that

I needed the laugh. Why do you come here, spew nihilistic rw bs and expect agreement? You have the wrong board, hon. Take a right turn over at Stupidville and you will find standing ovations for your point of view. Trust me.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

34. You obviously don't have children of draft age.

But by all means, please continue your self-righteous bullshit. After all, it's not going to be you who dies. It's someone else's kids. And that's A-OK as far as you're concerned.

[Yael]

44. The blood of our troops will be on your hands then.

Begone.

[blues90]

50. No, I did not vote for bush and protested more than this

one insane war and lost many friends in Vietnam. Show me who is going to end this occupation and who has done anything in this government to stop it up to this point. Don't hand me words spoken in some campaign , I have read them all. show me the plan to get out and who has it. I want to see the damn thing.

I'll tell you what. Since this is some new time now and move forward campaign then let the candidate who claims they can end this insanity make a contract in writing and sign it and then hand it to the people , if they can't do as claimed then quit, how's that?

[roguevalley]

100. show us YOUR bonafides. then we might talk.

[DaDooRonRon]

133. You're "arguing" like Hannity or O'Reilly would

The "attack the questioner" defense is one of the lamest in the books, and it's how the right wing makes its living. It is not what I hope for here, but sadly it is what I have come to expect.

You've been asked a bona fide question.

If you pride yourself in the ability to discuss/debate the onus is on you.

Show the plan to get ALL U.S. occupation and peripheral forces out of Iraq.

It's not there.

You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. More crybaby bullshit from the supposed adults

You're acting like my two-year old.

[MattBaggins]

48. Blaming Dean is silly

Do you really think he wrote all those rules and bylaws all by himself?

[DiverDave]

49. Then go away.

people like you just make me wanna vomit...do you hate whats going on in this country?
If not, by all means, stay home.
oh, and by staying home, you give the rw'ers what they want...way to play into their hands.
Course, you just might be a fucking rethug anyway...

[NEDem]

65. I second that.

Just Go away.

[skygazer]

52. So why are you here?

[Patsy Stone]

53. Every party needs its pooper

At least you're not voting for McCain.

[datopbanana]

54. dumbass

[billyoc]

58. Was there ever a candidate that you liked?

[blues90]

66. Yes , JFK and RFK and Clinton

Two were murdered and one was slamed endlessly by a repub house and the media. At the time Clinton was a hell of a lot better than bush sr just as now , any candidate is better than bush.

All I see is the bar on everything has been lowered so close to the ground that anyone looks good now.

Anyone looked better than the 109th congress too but look how well the 110th turned out.

Sorry but I have run out of hope , I hope and I know it's a crutch to get through a day.

I joined a few groups to go out and canvas and found reality . These people were not interested in anything other than a credit for school or a career opportunity. I was the oldest guy in the place and by quite a few years. They were nothing like most of the people out there in the 60's.

[roguevalley]

101. I'm glad RFK, Malcolm X and MLK never felt like you or we would

have a world you wouldn't recognize. Nothing like the 'glories' of Jim Crow. If they never said die, why the hell should we? Some of us HONOR our elders and contemporaries for their SACRIFICE to ENSURE that all of us get a chance. You spend eight years with a dumbass in power and you fold your tent? Black people spent about 160 years with no hope and it took women over eighty years to get this close. You know how it happened? No one ever stuck their head up their butts and whined about the smell. They kept going even in the face of great adversity and even death and they won out. So shall we with OBama and we will do it with or without boo-hoo'ers like you.

[blues90]

121. I already live in a world I don't recognize.

How the hell do you know what anyone of those men would have felt like if they were alive today.

Just what the hell are you doing to change the world besides voting for Obama? This is all you are focusing on , other than to give me history i already am fully aware of.

Never mind, this is the internet and you can say whatever you want about yourself.

I am not making claims here, I am free to express my views and can do so without attacking others. I don't feel the need to insult someone else to express myself as you do. This tells me all I need to know about your patriotic position and you as a person.

[EnviroBat]

204. So you're this guy?

"Your world frightens and confuses me..."

[Beregond2]

59. More childish

nihilism. It's so much easier to affect a pose than to actually deal with reality, isn't it?

[Turn CO Blue]

62. Childish. Vanity. Post.

[dcindian]

64. What kind of delusional fuckwit bases his or her vote on some anonymous internet user?

What the hell is up with you people?

[blues90]

68. I can't argue with that .

[G_j]

67. in many ways I agree

but part with you on the voting issue. There are degrees to how awful things can be, and McCain promises to be the worst.


I do share much of your cynicism about a population that bought a bogus, completely illegal war, and then went out and bought brand new SUVs. That is scary!

[blues90]

77. There were a lot of horrors going on in 2003 that I was sickened

by and many people where I worked who were all for bush and the damn war machine and in awe of the military hardware. All with their cheap american flags flapping of their cars, flags all over the roadways, this showed a lot of respect for the flag.

Then there was Kerry, this was when I lost it. To tell people all votes would be counted and then turn an run was it for me.

If I were to do that I would never be able to live with myself. It was not only lying to the people it was allowing this war to continue to the worst point ever imagined and allowing this country to go so much further down the drain than it already had.

Now comes 2006 and the same thing happens. So no, I don't trust what a politician has to say. I looked for a reason in all of the Dem candidates and one who actually came out to speak to the people at the DC demonstrations was Kucinch , this told me one very important thing.

But because he is not star quality he is ignored. This is how I see this country and see it for what it really is. I cannot kid myself one second longer. I will prepare for the worst and hope people make it, but it will be the people who make the change if they are ready and willing not some DC figure.

People will follow a politician and gather in huge numbers but when it comes to anything else it's a no show and everyone for themselves.

[G_j]

88. haven't things been this way for a very long time?

I thought I could not feel more disappointed in Americans, than during the Reagan years. That was an utterly bleak, and abysmal time.
I've never really had "hope" after that. Not much seems to have been learned. I've always voted for the lesser of evils.
I'm still an activist, demonstrate etc. because IMO, you have to be, if you care.

[roguevalley]

102. good thing you are a minority. a sea change has happened and

this country is going to punt fuckers into orbit around saturn. you can either be part of the team or get lost now. either way, we will persevere and win. And when we do, stay home from the celebrations that are going to engulf this planet. we don't need you, sonny.

[GardeningGal]

69. Then you must not care about the Supreme Court. n/t

[gristy]

70. lame

"To call anyone a fucking whore"

Please provide a link to the post or news report that shows us the individual who did this, if you can, and then tell us why this individual is relevant to the broad-brush swipes in your post.

[Think82]

73. Obama isn't bought. He raised money from ordinary americans using the internet.

[EmilyAnne]

74. I love schizos!

[JimGinPA]

76. You Know What, I AM Going To Vote For Obama - And Not Only That...

I am going to register 100's of people between now and the election, just like I did before the primary here, and I am going to make 1000's of calls to voters to try and convince them to vote for Obama too. So I'm not in the least concerned with the sore losers like you and your weak threats.

[roguevalley]

103. and you, JimGinPa are my new hero

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Buck Rabbit]

79. I don't get your train of thought.

1-) The Media picked candidates were Hillary and Rudy. Neither one will be on the ballet in November.

2-) The people who are screaming about Dean's rules, were the dominate voting block in establishing those rules. No matter what the rules had been, they would have put up a stink if they did not in the end favor their candidate.

3-) No one from either campaign called anyone a fucking whore? Are you referring to statements from anonymous posters on barely moderated message boards catering to the outlying segments of the political spectrum?

4-) If there are no elections in November, I will probably be dead, fighting, fleeing or hiding. How about you?

[Blue-Jay]

81. Selfish pricks UNITE!

[EnviroBat]

206. Dyxlexic Selfish Pricks UNTIE!

:rofl:

[RichardRay]

82. You have my deepest condolences.

I will keep you in my daily practice, as I do all sentient beings, in the belief that in some lifetime you will have an end to suffering.

However, in this lifetime and on this political Internet discussion board the evidence of the grip illusion has on your mind is pretty stunning!

[americanstranger]

83. Be sure and hold your breath while you're at it.

Because at the end of the day, it's all about whether or not you still have something to complain about once the election is done.

And you seem to want to guarantee yourself that, because no matter who wins, you can complain that 'you didn't vote for him.'

Go ahead, then. I'll point out that I'm probably just as old as you are, and I still somehow see the value of my vote. Too bad you lost that.

- as

[cstanleytech]

85. What am I going to do? Vote for either Hillary or Obama

as I just cant stomach the chance of potentially 4 more years of Bush policies.
Anyway lets be honest, our government is not perfect nor are the parties and yeah their are alot of assholes on the forum attacking people but try to ignore them, they are not the person you vote for anyway.

[Snarkoleptic]

87. Look...it's Obama vs. McSame.

From a purely pragmatic point of view, we're fucked if McSame fails his way into the WH.
You go to the primary with the candidate of your dreams.
You go to the general with the candidate you have, which is not necessarily the one of your dreams.
SCOTUS is reason enough to back Obama.
Here's a look at McSames health policy for younger women-

[Swamp Rat]

92. Learn how to bandage severed limbs.

Volunteer to bury 100 million dead bodies in Iraq and Iran and here at home.

[Thrill]

94. So? Why should we care? Why are you telling us? Do whatever the hell you want.

[npincus]

97. good for you.

perhaps there'll be enough like you to abstain so McCain can win, keep his 100-year war going and expand it into Iran. Hip, hip, hooray!

[Adelante]

99. Pat yourself on the back nt

[tpsbmam]

105. That would make you part of the problem.

Your approach is NOT the solution -- all it does is help elect McCain. Get to work -- we ALL need to get to work. We need to get progressives elected locally -- it all starts there. Yes, we need to oppose the entrenched Washington Dems and Reps, but we need to get to work in order to do that.

You may have been working already. I know I have. And I know a lot of people like me. And I know that many of us have burned out and thrown in the towel, at least for the moment.

I know you're fed up and discouraged -- many of us are. But please explain to me how handing the election to the greater of what you see as two evils gets us? You think things are bad -- just wait until the Supreme Court is fully loaded.

I hope you rethink your stance. I didn't enter the "Obama camp" until late in this process, and it was after 2 of my choices were ousted (Kucinich then Edwards). And Edwards was frankly too establishment for me (given his Senate record). There are things I like about Obama and things I don't. But you can bet I'm going to vote for him, as I'm going to vote for my horrible Dem Congressman (Shuler) because his Republican opponent is a nightmare and a half. And I'll continue working with local progressives to find better candidates locally and will continue to be a pain in the ass to the Dem establishment, who must be VERY sick of hearing from me by now.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

109. blues90 calls off 2008 General Election.

:* :radio:

[earth mom]

112. Couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for some sanity around this loony bin!

You do realize that the Obamanuts around here have scared off most DUers who feel as you do, don't you?

The denial and mind control I'm seeing around here really makes for quite the freak show. :crazy:

[blues90]

128. Yes , I realize it, and it's sad and sorry .

There is not one liberal radio show left either that i can listen to without a flood of Obama supporters and raging Clinton bashers.

It would be one thing if it was fair and balanced as everyone always claimed they wanted the media to be once again but it's not. This is the hypocrisy I see in all of this.

I have seen anyone here who supported Hillary bashed to hell and then they went away for good reason.

Another thing I have seen is all the people for the most part said in the begining of this entire craze that all the Dem candidates would make a great president but this is hardly true now. They are only worth a damn if they back Obama.

The people here can call me anything they want but I would suspect any candidate who had this much of a push.

Of course calling me names or telling me I'm deserting the country because i don't believe the way they do only tells me they are the problem and one reason we don't have free choice or free speech without invoking a firing squad.

I wouldn't waste my time with people who act this way in public , I would avoid them because they are no different than the people who got us into this mess in their approach.

[dionysus]

185. uh, yeah dude, let's coddle selfish whiners who declare they won't vote... helps the party and all

keeerist...

[tyedyeto]

115. Why is the Op not given the granite pizza?

He/she states up front he/she will not be voting for the Democratic nominee. That is totally against the site rules.

And who called anyone a 'fucking whore'? Please post the link to this ugly person.

[kenny blankenship]

117. The Mods ate tainted shellfish, dropped acid, and threw themselves from a cliff

it was a suicide pact.

DU without moderation. Nothing is true; everything is permitted.

[Hoof Hearted]

176. We don't HAVE a nominee yet, Einstein.

I agree with the OP. I will NEVER vote for McCain. I will NOT vote for Barack Obama.

[itsrobert]

116. Make like a tree and leave

okay?

[oasis]

118. Dean needs to take his tired ass back to Vermont and raise chickens. (but he'd

probably screw that up too).

[End Of The Road]

123. You are a realist, and

:yourock:

So what are you doing here?

[blues90]

153. Trying to see if anyone else is looking at the big picture.

[End Of The Road]

169. I think you're right on, but (there's always a but)....

In a weary way I empathize with the rudest, die-hard Hillary-hating Obama supporters because they do have a GLIMPSE of the big picture. They feel in their bones that something is terribly wrong, and oh! are they right. But some of them are lacking the context (historical or personal, take your pick) in which to hone their insights. Obama is going to be the nominee, and I WILL vote for him with a prayer for his success in accomplishing any meaningful positive change. But unlike his biggest fans, I don't believe he has the machine behind him to pull it off. Sadly, grass-roots support has been without effect for a long time now.

[Butch350]

126. I won't vote for McCain and I won't vote for Obama

Lay off the CRACK pipe!

[Bleacher Creature]

127. Not Voting for Obama is THE SAME as Voting for McCain.

If you enjoyed the last eight years, fine -- stay home. If not, get off your damn high horse and show up.

[blues90]

135. Where have I heard this before.

That's your take, it's your choice. I don't feel there is much difference between Obama and Hillary. Not voting is my choice to express that fact that this time I am sick and tired of the same old thing.

People were fine with Clinton when they had jobs and we were in the black and were not off to some war. Now somehow he has lost his mind so I hear. Hillary is now a monster. Yet somehow Obama is complelety without fault or flaw. There is something really wrong with that picture and I don't care who the hell it is. That is not human.

I can't recall one post unless I missed it that someone who supported Obama even suggested he made a mistake or lied or just may be not entirely honest. I do recall people who supported Clinton finding fault as well as JFK and RFK and all the others. Everyone used to say everyone loved Reagan too but this was far from true.

[Bleacher Creature]

141. Let me guess, you heard it in 2000 when a "principled" stand meant voting for Nader.

This is such crap. More than 100 million people are going to be voting in November, but somehow your "principled" stand is going to be seen as anything but a blip on the screen?

Seriously, this is such a waste of time. Why are you even on this site?

And by the way, I agree that there isn't is much difference between Obama and Hillary. How that translates into not voting for Obama over McCain makes zero sense.

[blues90]

144. don't guess , that is a waste of time.

[DaDooRonRon]

136. Really?

So if I or anyone were to vote for McKinney or Barr or Joe Schmoe that's just like voting for McCain?

Even if I/they detest McCain and are voting for the person they feel best qualified to lead?

That's some amazing "logic" you got there - heck, it's almost like closing off the electoral process to anyone who isn't a member of the Big Two.

Is this what democracy looks like these days?

[Bleacher Creature]

140. Get over yourself. It's the system we have. Didn't you people figure this out in 2000?

It's a two party system, and McKinney, Barr and Joe Schmoe aren't the nominees of either party. Don't like it, fine -- work to fix it in the three years when it's not a Presidential election year.

But this year the only two people who have a chance to be elected are John McCain and Barack Obama. Which ever of the two does a better job getting their people to the polls will most likely win. McCain will mobilize the right, no matter how much they bitch and moan. If we don't we lose.

[blues90]

146. You are just going back to 2000 ?

[comrade snarky]

218. Maybe

So many people are going back to 2000 because your argument reminds them, and me, of all the people saying there was no difference between Gore and Bush.

Remember that? How they were two corporate owned candidates with no real difference between them? How neither one was any good so lets vote for Nader?

Maybe the backlash you're seeing against your ideas have something to do with how well that argument worked out. Gore isn't perfect but a lot more heads, arms, legs and minds would still be attached if the margin of victory had been too large for the republicans to steal. You know, say the margin of 1/3 of the Nader voters in one swing state.

But by all means, take your vote and shove it up you ass if that makes you feel superior.

<eidted fir Tpyo>

[DaDooRonRon]

159. Oh my gosh the same old ad naseum rubbish

Fix it when it isn't a presidential election!

Fix it when we don't need control of the Senate!

Fix it when Tuesday comes after Thursday!

You don't want it fixed, and you know it.

If you did, you'd start fixing it in the same time frame you'd fix a leaking kitchen sink that was ruining the floor - RIGHT NOW.

I love Wimpy logic when it comes to stopping electoral fraud - "I'd gladly fix it Thursday for a winning candidate today!"

[Bleacher Creature]

168. How the hell is voting for a sure loser fixing anything?

Take your toys and go home. Stop wasting our time here.

[DaDooRonRon]

212. I was hoping for more

Rather than discuss how to build an actual real progressive movement (something that everyone here says they want but something that nobody here will even begin to try and build), let us instead resort to the one-line retorts that have become commonplace here, and attack the quest as being foolish.

I assume that you DO understand this is the hallmark of the right wing, and yet you seem quite at home with it.

They do it because they are bereft of ideas and need to attack rather than discuss, lest they be seen as being intellectually bankrupt.

What might your reason be?

"Take your toys and go home" - we've NOT come a long way, baby.

[Bleacher Creature]

216. Huh? Talk about a misdirection.

How does voting against Barack Obama further the cause of building a strong progressive movement one iota? All it does is elect another neocon.

And please, don't bother with a reply if it involves comparing me a right winger (which you seem to have a penchant for, and which is simply insulting) or, more importantly, if you are going to spout off on how things have to get worse before they get better. I'm just not willing to let things get any worse.

[DaDooRonRon]

217. Well, you're not willing to make them better either

You have convinced yourself that by voting for a centrist like Obama you are doing your part to help the cause, when in reality all you are doing is voting AGAINST someone (try this test: would you vote for Hillary if she were to get the nom? If so, you're voting AGAINST McCain, not FOR someone), which is what you just accused me of! :rofl:

Ask yourself these questions: Will Obama remove all U.S. occupation forces from Iraq? (No.) Will he strive for universal health care for all Americans? (No.) Will he look to make the election process transparent and not dependent on who gets the most money? (No.)

These things matter to me, and I'll be damed if I am going to give my vote to someone who will not act on them for the bizarre reason that if I don't vote for Mr. Sucks then Mr. Really Sucks will win! That is fucking insane.

Oh, and now that you've been shown to be part of the problem could you please stop with the "voting against" argument - it's quite silly.

People who opt of of the two party rigged game are voting FOR candidates.

Got that? Voting FOR.

[klook]

148. Well, no, it's not, actually.

Let's say you and I are voting. Two scenarios:

Scenario A
I vote for Obama, you vote for McCain.
Result: Obama 1, McCain 1

Scenario B
I vote for Obama, you don't vote
Result, Obama 1, McCain 0

See?

On edit:
Still, I do think it's imperative to vote Democratic, lest we have another four years of disastrous Republican oligarchy.

[Traction311]

201. No it isn't

You can argue voting for Nader in a close state like FL is a vote for McLame, but not voting is different. There are many out there who don't care for Obama, and shouldn't be forced to hold their noses.

Always remember, voting for a Green or a Repuke goes againt DU rules. Not voting doesn't break any DU rules.

[DaDooRonRon]

131. Delete - dupe

[IsItJustMe]

134. It's an imperfect world guy. Sorry, but that is reality, and this is what we got. You can either

work with it, like I have choose to do, or you can fight 'what is'. If you do that, you will just end up being one bitter fuck.

That is up to you. Good luck.

[blues90]

142. Imperfect yes , absolutely . But better no .

I never looked for perfection in anything. But I do expect people to live and learn and remember. I expect people to at least try to respect others and treat others the way they would want to be treated. I am not religious but this is a good rule.

There is just no way in hell the candidates we are left with are the best choices. Not this time. There is not a damn thing I can do about this other than not to follow the stream to the dry bed.

As I have said many times before being better than bush is an easy job. I am not bitter , i am tired of the same old thing which is people putting all their faith in some candidate.

More than this I am not the type who entertains the idea of name calling and gang type mentality , this is where people have not learned a damn thing. I don't care for bullies or people forcing their opinions on others as if there is one way , which is their way.

This is where I part company with many of the Obama supporters I have been in contact with or have heard on radio or read on forums.

I has gotten to the point where if Obama jumped off a bridge everyone would follow. This is the impression I get and for good reason, it's not as if I have not given any thought at all to what I feel or say , I do have my reasons. I have lived for coming up to 60 years and what has really changed through politics. Every 4 years here we go again. It's a crap shoot at best.

I don't see anyone challenging the powers at be like the corporations and the military industrial complex or getting heath care to everyone , or at least food and shelter for everyone young and old. This has never been. And if not then all the people are not represented.

[IsItJustMe]

151. Well, I am not quit as old as you, but pretty close. I too see the bull shit that exists in this

country and in our political system. My first and foremost advice to anyone is, "If you follow the herd, you will step in shit."

This is 'what' my great life lesson has been. From where I sit though, I have observed Obama. If I am honest, there is no great passion in my heart for him. But I will say this about him:

I have went through lots of shit in my life. Obama has too. I can tell. You can call it instinct, but I know 'what' I know. He is humble. He has taken the kitchen sink and he kept on smiling.

Do you know why? Because he gets a fundamental fact about human behvior. He knows that people are people and they just do what they know how to do. It's nothing personal. Given the same upbringing and life experience, you or I would react in the same way.

I can't tell the future, but when I see this quality in people, I know that they can be the type of people who can transform the world. He gets it at the human level.

Now, he has big time flaws, like we all do. But I sence a positive intagible in him that I don't see in most people. For that reason, I will support him. His supporters that are going around being ass holes, well, that's what they are and that's what they know. No one is exempt from it.

[blues90]

173. Perhaps . There are things about Obama I saw at first.

That I liked but then there was a change . He does well with the speeches but does not do well one on one. He seems to have allowed the politician over take the human element. He does know what people want to hear as all politicians do.

I can't get past the time in Jan just a bit over a year ago when all the people who protested the war and wanted impeachment yet if he stood for these values as I do I would have made it a point to get out there and represent the people which he did not.

I don't expect anyone to be like me but I do expect anyone who does make certain claims to be there no matter what.

Now that there is this flood of praise and support he has taken the high road in my opinion. There are things he supports that i am against and things he voted for I am against.

I don't feel he has been taken to task on the real issues , he picks the issues and does the talking. He speaks out only when confronted and takes the defense.

It's like the Reagan comment that burns me , I know what he said yet it was spun into something not even close to the meaning of the words that came out of his mouth.I was far from alone in my take on this. I can find very little about him other than what he has written about himself and his life.

[GoneOffShore]

138. So, you're not gay or a woman who could get pregnant

Or have kids of draft age or care about the Supreme Court.

So go back to playing blues guitar, picking your nose and being a wanker.

And just so you know: I was against the Iraq War and the attack on Afghanistan, never believed in Shrub from the get go.

You stay home, sit on your hands or whatever you do come November.

And be assured that you, just like the fools who voted for Bush, have blood on your hands.

I knew there was a reason I had you on ignore for a long time. You haven't a clue. You're just another jerk off.

[blues90]

145. And what are you ?

You come here and tell me I don't have a clues because I don't agree with you? What the hell is that?

I'm really so broken up that I have been on your limp ignore list.

All you have to offer is to call me a jerk off. Don't burn your mind out with these comments.

And no I don't have blood on my hands. You seem to think you have someone who will wash the blood off of yours and all you have to do is vote.

I know all about draft age , I lived through that horror but you seem to think that all will just end in Iraq and that there might not be a draft even with a Dem.

[GoneOffShore]

165. I was right

You're just a posturing wanker.

"Gee, it's all politics. I'm not going to vote."

Makes you a wanker.

If all you have to offer is not voting, then you're not a citizen.

Voting isn't just a privilege to be exercised or not as you see fit. It's your obligation as a citizen.

Go play guitar and rant at those who use the franchise. You won't make a difference.


And no, you don't have a clue.

[blues90]

180. Say whatever you want .

The truth is you don't know me but come here to judge me and I don't know you. And you come here claiming you do have a clue. No what you have is a thin layer of sanity that you use in an obnoxious and ignorant way. The proof in this is that you came here and offer nothing but your judgmental ignorance. I am more concerned about the bigger picture where you stand only on my voting or not voting to attempt to make some point based on a lame guilt trip and you have not read all of these posts here and if you have you are truely ignorant . It's not politics , It's lies and hype. So put you vote in the black box machine and hope it goes where you intended it.

Calling me a wanker really does a lot of nothing other than show your true color and mentality.

[Nedsdag]

139. So you're voting for Bob Barr instead?

[Honeycombe8]

147. Dean has done a good job, I think. Remember, the 50-state strategy was HIS idea.

He's been fair and impartial, cool headed, during the heated primary process.

A job well done.

I don't know what you're referring to, about your other comments.

[DevonRex]

149. You don't even make sense.

[RBInMaine]

150. Either support the Dem or blood is on your hands. It's that simple.

[DevonRex]

156. I agree completely. nt

[blues90]

161. I've supported Dems since 1970

I still see plenty of blood. I still see it after 2006, so just what the hell are you talking about? Many people on this forum are ranting that Hillary is another bush just as McCain will be. It's either Obama or blood to them. So what you are saying flies in the face of many here.

[Occam Bandage]

195. Support the Democratic candidate, or you support continuing the war.

[tkmorris]

155. OK fine. Both candidates suck

I can kind of agree with you on that point, I haven't bought the Obama is our savior t-shirt yet.

However, come November, one candidate WILL be better than the other, and by a significant amount. To just say "fuck it" and stay home is the wrong answer.

Seriously, do you really look at Obama and McCain and not see any difference? You think they are equally bad?

[Life Long Dem]

160. I'll tell you what I'm going to do if there are no elections in November

I'm going to "vote" in the next available election.

[AlCzervik]

162. Just like there no mid terms in 06?

[blues90]

164. Oh there were , but do you think we got a fair election?

Do you think they did not steal quite a few seats? Do you think that 2006 made on bit of difference ,if so what is different?

[AlCzervik]

167. i think it showed that we had elections and the voting public chose Blue.

Did it make a huge difference---no, the best hope is for a larger majority in the senate.

[blues90]

163. I really don't get most of you at all .

Look at what this bush admin has done. They have never been elected. They have powers that no admin has ever had. They have gotten away with every crime one can imagine. They started and planned and lied this country into this attack on Iraq. They allowed the New Orleans and the Miss Gulf to suffer and to this day they still do.

They outed Plame, they have fired any general who spoke out against them as well as Judges. They have hired their own private military called Black water. They have destroyed the economy and robbed people of billions. They use soldiers and toss them to the dirt. They tap phones and records. How about directive 51? You think this is a joke , just for fun?

All of this and so much more and you think that they are just going to get up and walk away without doing something?

This may sound like tin foil time to many but not to me. There is some reason that Pelosi and Reid will not impeach and I doubt it's just being weak.

If you think this can be all ignored now because of elections being the main focus then I think you are sadly mistaken.

I didn't make this stuff up. You talk reality well there is your reality.

[Swamp Rat]

170. Man, you are not making sense to me.

No offense.

You do not have to tell me about New Orleans. I was born and raised here. I saw troops in my city after Katrina, in MY NEIGHBORHOOD. American citizens were disarmed during Martial Law, people who were only defending their homes. Unfortunately, the intruders were Blackwater mercenaries who were much more heavily armed and trigger happy.

You are right. The fuckers in power right now mean business, NASTY business, but If you just sit out of this crucial race, you are dooming yourself to a similar fate. We New Orleanians were the goddamn guinea pigs - y'all are next.

Just vote for the Dem candidate... at worst it'll be a slower, less painful death for democracy. At best, Obama might just pull us through a very difficult period. Not voting only eliminates the outside chance of real change.

[blues90]

178. wasn't the same thing said about 2004 and 2006 ?

They too were the most important elections.I remember well , this is what we were told. If this push would have been there in 2004 like it is now then we would not be in this mess. Same chance different year, 2006 what happenes , nothing. Why , because we were told things which turned out to be more lies by the Dems who ran on ending Iraq.

Even soon after the 2006 elections the people thought if they went to DC they would get the support they were told they would have but no can't have that can we.

Now in my mind which is burnt out and completely fed up with my hopes getting up and placing trust in these politicians , here we are again with all of the same sort of hype and promise of hope and told this could happen. The only difference is that it is a much larger show with much more hype, add into this the Dem voters as well as the candidates both splitting the party because neither side can let the other side be heard. This one is running a dirty campaign and this one has a preacher who hates the whites and this one lied about this. It never ends. Then Dean breaks out some rule book that ends up basically voiding out two states as if their votes don't exist. Whether this was not the intent it was the result and lets face the facts, both candidates knew damn well what they were doing and both are to blame as well as Dean for not seeing this possibility yet he acts like he has all the answers. Here we have a man who let the media murder him and what we got was Kerry who tossed his promise to the people in the trash and we ended up with 4 more years or bush and we still have the same damn black box voting machines that made this 4 more years of bush possible along with Kerry not counting every vote.

So now I am to believe that this time which is every bit as screwed up or possibly more so we will make some change because yet another new candidate who people are made to believe can do no wrong and has all the answers will do what he claims and actually do something?

Here we have Hillary is nothing other than a liar and a monster and another bush but did we hear this about Hillary before this campaign , I didn't, so if it's true then why did we the people not know ?

Here we have Obama, someone I saw a few times in the senate not doing very well in hearings who was not even really known much at all since he is new and now suddenly he is the best thing that we have ever seen , comparable to RFK and all the best politicians since time began all rolled into one. But no one ever knew this until now , he didn't stand out in the senate but boy he is the man or all men today .

This is politics and this is to me hype , this is why we continue to never move beyond the stone age and the very reason why we never will.

We are told what to think and what to believe and if we don't follow this path laid out for us then we are out of line and foolish or told as I have been to have blood on my hands.

I have reached a point where I am well aware that no politician listens to the people at all any more , I am well aware that we have a one party system and I am well aware that if we want change it will not come from a politician or holding their un-willing feet to the fire. If this would work I would think we would know by now, it has not.

It will come when the people say we have had enough of this crap , you work for us and since you are not representing us then pack up your shit and get the hell out, we have someone that will and the hell with your term limits , you lie , you fail and back down on your promises then get the hell out now. It is a job after all and then the same rules should apply as they do with any job , you don't do what you are hired for and they hand you the good bye check.

A job in the house was never designed to become a 50 or 60 year career but this is what it has become even if the politician does nothing the people demand. It is a Club in DC with well off people sitting on their hands to keep their career and nothing more than that.

Now , if I am delusional or insane for thinking this way then this is my problem but I can see the reality of the situation.

Why are there not these for the people politicians not endlessly without let up hammering and pounding the desk about what happened to New Orleans ,it's near three years now and they have done nothing. Why do they continue to fund this occupation , why do they continue to allow the soldiers to be ignored? I have a simple answer , they don't give a damn because it does not affect them in their bubble.

Why should I believe that this time will be any different? Hope , I have run out of hope, it's time for action, well past time for action. If all of these supporters can come out in record numbers now when they put their faith in a candidate as well as their money then where were they in record numbers when all these crimes were being committed? This is what haunts me to this day.

When I see a presidential candidate write down their promise on contract which states if I fail to do what I promise I will willingly resign then I will believe their claims.

[Swamp Rat]

192. John Edwards came to New Orleans about a dozen times to help rebuild homes.

Obama spoke about justice for New Orleans at least twice in the last week.

"Why should I believe that this time will be any different?" - You don't have to believe anything, but I ask you to cast your vote for the Dem nominee, no matter who it is. Even if you do not think it will do any good, I ask you to do it for me and my brothers and sisters in New Orleans who only have hope at this point.

Thousands are still homeless, living under bridges:

[blues90]

196. I am aware of Edwards efforts as well as many others

who have continued to try and get justice for the people of New Orleans. I even sent money that i really did not have to help out there. I have kept up with everything that has happened there and will continue to do so. I know this can happen anywhere but this is beside the point. It happened there.

I understand your position completely , I had a few friends in New Orleans that were wiped out. Other musicians. My wifes younger brother lived there with his male lover and he died of AIDs and his lover lost everything.

The problem I have is yes now after all this time Obama comes out to speak. What about before? It would seem to me if he were so concerned he would have found the time well before now. I would imagine many people in New Orleans wonder the same thing. This should have been on the top of the list of the 110th congress but is was not even on their list of 6 for 06.

I am shocked that when bush calls it that part of the world that the house is not up in arms and does not bring this up or that the only time one hears about New Orleans is when the date rolls around.

Yes Edwards was there many times and look how he was pushed right out of the running because he took the path against the crimes and corporations. He did the right thing and did not just use words but actions. The others sat back and played it safe. I would have a hell of a lot more respect for any candidate who went there and took action.

I will consider voting if only for the sake of those in New Orleans , however That would be the only reason , not because i believe in these candidates personally.

I look into myself and I know damn well if I were in the house i would have not stopped or let this go as these candidates we have left have done. They are using this for political gain and if this is not true then they should have been at this without let up and if they are using this for political gain then they should truly be ashamed.

How any political figure can ignore this is way beyond me.

[Swamp Rat]

203. Thank you!

Thanks for listening. :hug:

[HuffleClaw]

166. it sure explains how the majority of the public once believed IRAQ had something to do with 911

the media could have promoted SPONGEBOB and people now would be wearing yellow in support of him. seriously, what percentage of normally very astute DU'ers noticed this media manipulation from the beginning? very few, from what i've seen and those that DID were attacked from BOTH sides. sad.

[quaker bill]

177. How you actually vote

will be known only by you. No one else is responsible for it. No one is required to please you, cajole you, or impress you. It is just you and the ballot, you get to pick. You can express your very limited power, or you can opt not to. Why attempt to bother others with your angst?

[dionysus]

179. welll.... bye

[LSK]

186. Obama has been bought by 1.5 million Americans

We the people.

Tell me, how would you recognize the right candidate if he ever appeared? Would you label him as bought and sold? How would you ever know?

[sabbat hunter]

187. by not voting for Obama

You are helping to elect McCain. do you really want him in charge of the country and making appointments to the SCOTUS? Do you care about Roe v Wade?

[blues90]

202. If that is the way you see it , that's fine.

I don't buy it though. If there are so many who are so certain Obama has this sewn up and will wipe the floor with McCain then my one vote left out will not even matter.

Since this began close to 2 years ago all I have read and heard is well Edwards bought a new house and had a hair cut or Hillary voted for the war as many others did as well. This was all here on this forum from the start and most of it came from Obama supporters.

There has been this endless push since Obama got Iowa and we were told 6'000 repubs came out for Obama , I have a difficult time buying this as a reality that the repubs there did this because they suddenly became Democratic , not in Iowa. This smells of Rove to me.

I watched as candidates that really had no past to toss in their face were ignored by the media and then the people.

I also don't feel this is the time to try to make history. Now that the few best candidates are out I am now supposed to convince myself that one of the two left are now the best because they had the backing and media push.

[sabbat hunter]

215. however if people started thinking like you

then we would indeed have a McCain presidency.

With Obama we will be out of Iraq sooner rather than later.
With McCain we will be in Iraq indefinitely

With Obama we will use diplomacy first
with McCain you get "bomb bomb bomb, bomb Iran"

With Obama you have a SCOTUS that will protect a woman's right to choose (Among other things)
With McCain you will get an over turn of Roe V Wade for starters.


Do you really want to take the chance that your vote won't be the difference between a McCain presidency and Obama?

[blues90]

220. That is all projection.

No one knows what it will be with Obama either. This is what people are told and what they believe but the proof is still not in yet.

If this country needs oil and this is the way america controls the globe then there are powers far above the president in play here.

It remains to be seen what is in the future. There is still 6 months left of the bush admin to be concerned about too.

[onenote]

188. what will I do if there are no elections in Nov? I guess I'll duck the flying pigs

[CatnHat]

190. to the OP

K & R

Your post is reflective to many democrats who are sick and tired of Dean and this flawed democratic primary--That guy should have been fired.

As an member of the "old" democratic party, I find it appalling to think that the Obama democrats seem to think it's ok to leave out and insult a large democratic coalition; it's ok for Obama's "friends and mentors" to insult their opponent from pulpit-- without any repercussions; not to mention Obama's insults to the working middle class. And that's ok-- Why?? . .and what's more surprising, they turn around and blame Clinton for dividing the party--what a joke.

So--Congrats to Screamin' Dean and his band of minions!!

. . . and to the Obama supporters and surrogates who actually think this party can "unite".
Dream on!

Obama has a strange view of America, no doubt about it. Many Americans prefer to think optimistic about our country; rather than carrying chips on their shoulder's. It is obvious that Obama and his wife share the latter.

[dionysus]

193. YEAH!! LET'S THROW IT TO THE REPUKES CAUSE WE'RE SPOILED BABIES!!

boy that'll teach us...

[Occam Bandage]

194. "You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

[pdx_prog]

197. Don't you see that by posting this

you are absolutely no better than any of the rest of us?

If you are not voting for either candidate, then who was your candidate and how could they have contributed to this Utopian society I read about in between the lines of your post?

[blues90]

208. My intent is not to be better than anyone.

My intent is to see the reality of what is going on and what could be the result of this constant focus on these primaries.

My vote was for Kucinich or Edwards because they were the only two who took a stand against the machine and stated this without doubt and they had no past to be tossed in their faces.

and don't come back with the bitter garbage, this is not about bitter it is about how the people get scammed and we end up with pick from the two who got the most money as always.

[pdx_prog]

211. Edwards was my candidate as well.....

That being said:

If you can't sink the 9 ball you at least move the cue where the other guy can't make it either. If you don't, you are giving the game to the other player.

[blues90]

213. It's not quite that easy for me .

I have every detail stuck in my mind. This goes back to 2000 for me and everything that happened and how it happened up to today.

When any candidate speaks the words stick with me well before the media and all the talking heads get their spin in on it. I avoid the TV and most media for that reason.

[DevonRex]

198. A vote for anyone else IS a vote for McCain. Just like a vote for

Nader in 2000 was a vote for Bush.

Plain and simple.

[Bleacher Creature]

207. Don't waste your time. I tried the same argument and the OP is all over the map.

It's either "Hillary and Obama are the same," or "My Vote Won't Count" or "Obama's got the election sewn up" or some other reason that has no rational link to why he/she would vote for Nader, Barr, etc.

As far as how such a protest vote will succeed at accomplishing anything other than electing McCain, your guess is as good as mine. . .

[DevonRex]

214. I find his "reasoning" rather bizarre too. nt

[EnviroBat]

200. Oh boy, here we go again...

More of THIS crap ---->

"I didn't get my waaaayy. This isn't fair, and I'm going home..."

Dude, it's a tragic little broken record, and no one cares anymore. We've got an election to win, and if you're a part of the winning side great, if not, BFD.

[Name removed]

205. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VotesForWomen]

209. good points. nt

[canadian_is_cold]

221. I think you should follow your Candidates example, and try to show a little...

Testicular fortitude.

Grow up.