Sexism in American Politics Cuts Both Ways: This Election Tapped into a Well of Bitterness

[McCamy Taylor]

Disclaimer: In this OP I am not describing all American families. I am well aware that people from other countries especially India, other parts of Asia, Mexico and South America may have very different ideas about family structure and gender roles, so what I have written does not necessarily apply to them, either. This disclaimer is meant to take the place of the repetitive use of the qualifier Anglo-saxon or white and African-American or Black which would make this OP sound like a textbook which it isn’t. It is supposed to be about politics and about what happens when gender issues get involved in elections.


Intro. Unlike most other forms of bias, which tend to favor the oppressor and victimize the oppressed, sexism in America is destructive to men as well as women. We have seen the double standard in play in the recent Democratic Primary.

I.Roses are Red One of the Democratic nominee’s, Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York has been hounded for years for being unbecomingly “bossy” and “cold”. From March, 2007 when Clinton was the front runner:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200703220013

On the March 21 edition of MSNBC's Hardball with Chris Matthews, while discussing former Vice President Al Gore's testimony that day before the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works, of which Clinton is a member, MSNBC correspondent David Shuster claimed it was "no sort of secret" that Clinton and Gore "don't like each other very much" and noted that "there was nothing personally warm at all in interaction." While showing footage of Clinton speaking at the hearing, host Chris Matthews commented, "Look at those eyes. Look at the cold eyes that she's giving him. Look at that cold look."
Later in the show, when discussing the pro-Obama YouTube video, Matthews asked Bloomberg columnist Margaret Carlson, "But is she Big Brother? Is she Big Brother?" Carlson responded that Clinton is "big mama" and likened Clinton to a "domineering mother." Matthews, who had previously commented that Clinton had a "scolding manner in terms of her public speaking," added, "She's going to tell us what to do."

No one calls male candidate“bossy”. In a guy, that trait becomes “take charge”, “assertive” or “in control”. The male form of “cold” is “professional”.

American marriages are a lot like “Good cop-bad cop.” Just as one spouse always wants the air conditioner turned up and the other wants it turned down, one spouse is good at charming the neighbors and the other is good at telling them to get their dogs the hell off our property (maybe not in those words but it gets the job done). And the “bad spouse” is just as likely to be the woman in a typical white family in the U.S. as the man.

Within the arena of family politics, this is what is known as a matriarchy . The matriarchy is considered a normal, functional family by many in America. Note that some, in particular the Irish and the Catholic subcultures in the U.S., have tended to favor the presidential campaign of Hillary Clinton, because for them an "assertive" woman is normal, not "bossy".

II. Violets are Blue Even if you belong to a family in which the women make all the major decisions, some things never change in this country. Men are still expected to be “manly”. In other words, if they feel sad, they have to choke back their tears or drown them in a bottle or transform them into anger and go beat the shit out of someone---or maybe bomb some other country back into the stone age. This is how sexism short changes men in politics---as we saw in New Hampshire. When everyone ganged up on Romney, it was just too fucking bad for Mitt Romney. When everyone ganged up on Hillary Clinton, reducing her to tears, and the press gleefully televised her “Ed Muskie” moment coast to coast---Keith Olbermann lead with it that night on Countdown ---Americans did not renounce and reject her. Americans embraced her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVlwH7-05Fk

Men are allowed to grieve over a few things---the deaths of family members. National days of mourning. The Holocaust. Their dog that just got run over. But they can not show weakness. For women reading this, imagine how stressful it must be to feel anxious, worried and know that if you reveal your sense of inadequacy, you will only be made to feel even more worthless. Women have it easy. They can cry “Help!” and people come rushing to their aid. That is how it must seem to a boy who gets pushed out the nest young by a mother who tells him “Go play outside you are in my way” but who keeps his sister close to her side.

Women have a few other privileges in this country. They are not merely allowed to put family first, they are rewarded for it. When Hillary Clinton made Chelsea a central part of her campaign, her popularity increased, especially among those who appreciate a good matriarch. David Schuster attempted to remove what he may have perceived as an unfair advantage with his “pimp” remark, but he found himself facing the wrath of a nation which adores the Mother and Child. What male candidate has been able to generate such enthusiasm from campaigning with a grown son or daughter? Clinton became Miss Lillian, Jimmy Carter’s legendary mother about whom Hunter S. Thompson wrote that she was the only person he would unreservedly recommend for president. Why? Who doesn't trust their mother? Which day is more widely celebrated in this country, Mother's Day or Father's Day?

III. Otherness is Bittersweet Discrimination based upon gender is a terrible thing. Why do men have to wear those awful suits that make them look like sausages and why do women feel that they have to wear high heeled shoes even if they are professionals? Why do men have to pay to take women who work out on dates? Why do women have to achieve a certain acceptable standard of beauty to be considered worth dating? Why is a woman treated as expendable is she shows her age and why is a man treated as a laughing stock if he talks about his emotion? Why do the two genders feel that they are trying to communicate by semaphore from opposite sides of a wide canyon in the middle of a storm, even though most people get married and consort with the enemy most of their lives?

America is most comfortable with the female politician as wife/consort. “Ma” Ferguson, who ran for governor of Texas when her husband was impeached, thrown out office and barred from running again is the classic example. She ran on a platform of Elect me and you will get my husband back in office. That was easy for the men to accept, because she was doing it out of a spirit of love for her man, when he was at his lowest point. Every guy dreams of having a wife that supportive. It worked for the wife of George Wallace, too.

If Hillary had been a proper wife for Bill Clinton, she would have campaigned on the Vote for me to get Bill back in the White House platform. The fact that she did not tells us which of them is the “Bad spouse”. That is a big part of the problem between her and the boys on the bus. She did not support Bill the way that Nancy supported Ronnie or Laura supports W. She competes with him. They do not like a competitive, bossy woman----one who has stolen their ambition. Since they are not allowed to have emotions, they don’t see why any damned bitch like that should be allowed to share in some of the few joys that are left to them as emotionally castrated men in this screwed up country of ours.

Keep in mind that our current crop of journalists are pretty damn old. We are talking Geraldine Ferraro, Rev. Wright whole lot of anger left over from when America was a much more messed up place kind of old. Young men and women whom I talk to are much more sensible, and as they take over the reigns of power in this country, as lot of things are going to change.

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. I'm sorry, you're wrong

'bossy' is reflective of a negative quality, and is not in and of itself sexist or even female-specific although used less frequently of males; the equivalent behaviour in a male is more often called 'domineering' or 'controlling'. Either way, it's not a compliment.

The idea that Hillary Rodham Clinton, who rose to national prominence and the position she currently holds as the wife of a successful politician, who won her race for the Senate in New York on the strength of his name, ought somehow to be held up as some sort of feminist role model is a bad joke; I'd go so far as to say it's regressive and insulting to the gains made by the women's movement. Hillary is not the feminist role model that women who attained their positions by their own virtues, like Ann Richards, like Barbara Boxer, like Margaret Thatcher (whom I loathe, but she didn't ride anyone's coattails) are.

[McCamy Taylor]

6. I did not call her a feminist role model. Interesting that you did. Do you have

a grudge against people like Clinton who come to power through connections? If, I assume that members of the Kennedy family or the Rockefeller family who also do not have to campaign and who can use family money and clout to get elected as if it is their right are in your bad books. And that members of the Daley family also arouse your ire. Does that extend to people who get ahead in the business, art and literary world?

Or is it just the women who celebrate Clinton as a role model for women that annoy you?

I am curious to know more.

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. You annoy me, because you consistently post reams of nonsensical gibberish.

And something doesn't need to be explicit to be implicit.

[McCamy Taylor]

10. I believe that something annoyed you.

[JoFerret]

17. You annoy me because you don't read it

can't read it.

[emilyg]

42. Yet you keep reading.

[The Doctor.]

24. SJ is right about the one point;

"Bossy" is "Bossy"... whether you're male or female.

And an 'assertive woman' is only considered 'bossy' (or in the troglodyte vernacular 'bitch'), by fewer and fewer people all the time. The same with an assertive man... the interpretation of his assertive attitude as being a 'dick' (another sexist termm) is highly subjective, and only those prone to feeling unfairly treated, or those with problems differentiating between assertive and agressive behavior, will think of that person as a 'bossy bitch' or 'dick'. I would say that the tendency to think in those terms is less inherent sexism and more simple ignorance.

Other than that, yes, there absolutely are a different set of expectations for men and women. Most of these have evolved from, well... evolution, where stragtegies for the survival of our species was built right into into us. I some ways, that gave women the short end of the stick... so to speak. It also translated into blanket expectations which are, for the most part, obsolete.

There is still enough residual expectation that plays a real role in society's treatment of gender, but I see us evolving pretty fast considering the millions of years of evolution we're trying to overcome with a few thousand of civilization. The last hundred years have seen great strides.

[planetc]

21. She did not get my vote on the strength of her name

"The idea that Hillary Rodham Clinton, who rose to national prominence and the position she currently holds as the wife of a successful politician, who won her race for the Senate in New York on the strength of his name..."

Just a report from the New York State electorate here--I did not vote for Sen. Clinton in 2000 because she was Bill Clinton's wife, but because she was voted one of the 100 most effective professional women in the country before her husband first ran for the presidency. I had finally, after the first campaign, heard her make a speech on the needs of children. This was on C-span, of course, because then, as now, you will have less than no access to a public figure's full statement on the commercial channels. Her speech was coherent, forceful, committed, and clear. She sounded as though she knew what needed doing, and how to do it.

And the other reason I voted for her in 2000 (1999?) was that her opponent, Rick Lazio, had no campaign at all except that he was not one of the despicable Clintons. He had no program, no policy statement, no nothing to say except that he was not a Clinton.

I'm not saying that some people have voted for her because the recognize her name, but that was not my reason.

And part of my decision was certainly the realization that a Republican could attempt to run a serious campaign by saying, essentially, "All Clintons are liars and scum, and I'm not a Clinton, so of course you'll have to vote for me."

[The Doctor.]

23. Same here.

Lazio was a tool.

I liked Clinton just fine, she seemed like a hard worker. But Lazio was a schmuck. He put the nail in his coffin when he charged across the stage demanding she sign his document (I don't even remember what 'pledge' it was supposed to represent), during their debate.

He looked like such a shithead.

That, and the ads they ran against Clinton were the height of stupidity; They did the 'man on the street' Q+A with random New Yorkers and aksed them; "What has Hillary Clinton ever done for New York?"

The response, everytime, was some version of; "Uhhh... I can't think of anything."

Well no shit!

A) She hadn't worked for NY yet.
B) Even if she had done 'something for NY', showing a handful of clueless people doesn't precisely prove anything.



The whole thing was a joke. I was glad to have her as Senator, I'm just a little disenchanted with her now.

[woolldog]

2. Oh god.

This kind of BS is exactly why she's losing. This is not some feminist crusade. We're electing a POTUS. I'm so sick of the feminism BS.

[Tinksrival]

3. I think the well is more like a thimble

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Except for Tweety being an ass (and that goes both ways).
She ran a bad campaign which is a shame cause she is a great candidate.

[eridani]

44. The well is certainly there. How can anyone not see it?

However, sexism is just a factor that will set Clinton back, as racism is a factor that will set Obama back.

What is truly asinine is the notion that Clinton could not win the primary because of sexism, but on the other hand she is more electable because sexism could not possibly affect the general election.

[AZBlue]

4. I didn't get very far - you told a huge lie right up front, so I didn't bother reading past it.

John Kerry was constantly called cold, aloof and distant (all synonyms for the same thing). And, last time I checked, he was male.

And I have yet to see any candidate referred to as "take charge, assertive or in control” whether they are male or female.

[McCamy Taylor]

7. Kerry was "cold". Clinton talks to people, tells stories, jokes, laughs

about herself and does lots of things to make herself seem more accessible. Kerry was so wooden you would be afraid that he would break in two if he tried to bend over to pick up a dime. He made no effort to overcome that military style of his.

So, a man has to be Mr. Freeze to be labeled "cold" a woman simply has to refuse to flirt to get that label. Women of a certain age reading this know what I am talking about. The phrase "frigid bitch" was in common use about three decades ago, at a time when many reporters and politicians were young men and all women were expected to pretend that all men were attractive/intelligent/interesting in their day to day encounters---even if they were total ignorant assholes. Men got used to being adored. I used to watch this dance in horror and when I was old enough to participate, I flat out refused.

[Clark2008]

20. Umm... other than the stock trades of nursing and teaching,

journalism has always boasted a higher number of female members than most other professions.

In 1970, the decade to which you refer, the Society of Professional Journalism, which had been the all-male Sigma Delta Chi, opened its doors to women (before that, this professional fraternity had a counterpart sorority, Theta Sigma Phi).

While I don't disbelieve that the term, "frigid bitch" was in common use in the 1970s, I wanted to point out that there were a good number of female reporters then, as well. This fact, btw, is why Spiro Agnew alluded to the "liberal media," - because there were a lot of females in that profession, a "liberal" action in those days.

[McCamy Taylor]

32. How old are you? In the 1970s, Barbara Walters was a freak show when she became an anchor.

You could count the number of prominent women TV reporters on one hand. They kept selecting women for TV based on their looks (blonde and sexy) and they were always seen as an addition to the men (solid and reliable). Men resented the fact that they perceived that these women got their jobs because of their looks even if the women were actually smart and hard working professionals . As a result, some of the pioneer women in TV journalism were treated horribly. Their co-anchors mocked them in public, would complain about them, insist that they were airheads, only working because they were women etc. People would say shit like "If the news comes from a woman it sounds like gossip" (real quote from someone back then).

Tom Brokaw was on Today for years before he became an anchor and you never saw such a major idiot douche. He had nothing above his neck but a pretty face. The other people on the show with him would grimace at his stupidity. However, when they stuck him behind a teleprompter at night all of a sudden he was "authoritative" because he could could friggin' read with a baritone.

Things have changed, especially at CNN. CBS's 60 Minutes was also groundbreaking. And women got an early start on the daytime news programs like Today . But back in the 1970s, it was still mostly a white man's world with a few minorities and women thrown in for token color.

[AZBlue]

31. You're sidestepping my point: you're first claim is false, as you just said.

I don't care what you think of Sen. Kerry, although we disagree on that too. But you claimed that male candidates aren't labeled "cold" when that is indeed false, as you just admitted.

This whole "men are so mean to me, I'm a poor little woman" routine only hurts women's rights. I'm so tired of it. I'm done, this has been hashed and rehased and is such an old routine it should be shown in black and white re-runs. (of course now you'll probably label me "racist" too)

Buh bye.

[McCamy Taylor]

33. No, I was going to ask why it is Ok to object to racism but not sexism?

I ask because way back in 1972, a classmate in the 7th grade did a survey to ask kids in our junior high school if they would protest if they saw racial discrimination and people mostly said "Yes" but asked if they would protest gender discrimination they mostly said "No." My first reaction to the question was the same, and here I was a regular Ms. magazine reader who knew that sexism was just as bad as racism. However, I also knew that while society frowned upon racism and validated anyone who protested it, it treated sexism as somehow ok and laughed at anyone who complained about it.

I am amused and bemused that over 30 years later things have not changed. It is acceptable for everyone to charge "racism" even about things that are not racist like the 3 am ad and cocaine use. However, if Clinton is called a "bitch" or "witch" or "whore" her supporters are mocked for calling that sexist language.

Keep in mind that women are the victims of more murder, violence, rape, child sexual assault, forced prostitution, domestic violence and other crime than any other oppressed group in America and the world and ask if this public approval of these hateful names applied towards women plays any role in teaching boys that it is ok to redirect the anger you feel at anything towards the nearest woman, even your wife?

I noticed during the campaign there was a tendency for Obama supporters to redirect anger they might feel towards Fox or the WaPo towards Clinton as in "Damn her. She is probably enjoying this." "Yeah! She probably made this happen!" "I'll bet it is all her fault" Same pattern as the spouse abuse pattern.

[JoFerret]

47. Don't be silly

Sexism does not exist and misogyny do not exist. And any evidence to the contrary in this campaign is the fevered imaginings of Hillbots and other worthless people. It is not possible to imagine it having any role whatsoever as it does not exist. And even if it did then it has not been a factor.

[Raksha]

34. "Take charge, assertive or in control" in the positive sense

can be correctly applied to Barack Obama. He definitely strikes me as assertive and in control without being an obnoxious bully. I imagine a lot of other people feel the same way, and that's why he's winning. Those are the qualities we most want in a president, after all.

[Prophet 451]

5. No sale

I'm sorry but sexism was never as big a factor in Hillary's campaign as she and her supporters liked to think and while sexism was out there, it could easily have been overcome if she had run a better campaign.

I was raised by my grandmother (while my parents were off being wildly dysfunctional). She was an assertive woman years before talk shows started talking about empowerment and spent her whole life caring for disabled and disturbed children, first as a nurse, then running an orphanage and even until the day she died, fostering kids. While I'm aware that I've somewhat idealised my memories of her, she was never someone who played the "pity me, the poor woman" card for sympathy. Like most people, the person who raised me had the biggest influence on me and looking back on it, it was largely her influence that caused me to start teaching self-defence to college girls. The biggest problem I had to overcome in teaching them was their own... "training" for lack of a better word. Most of the girls I taught had been raised with the idea that girls were the gentler sex, the weaker sex and consistently, the biggest problem I had to overcome was teaching them that they didn't have to wait to be saved, they could save themselves; that they didn't have to be Anne Of Green Gables, they could be Buffy if they wanted.

Hillary didn't try to be either. She complained about sexism but instead of using that as an opportunity to engage the public on the subject of gender relations (as Obama so memorably did on race), she used it as a stick to beat on her opponants. Her approach wasn't "come, let us reason together", it was "go and feel guilty". That just confirmed the prejudices of the sexists and pissed off the rest of us. Politics doesn't work like real life and, regardless of whether the accusation is true, you cannot play the victim. No doubt, there was and is sexism out there (the "bros before hos" shirt was memorably offensive) but instead of working out how to counter it, Hillary complained about it and she did so far more than was actually warranted (I'm not her responsible for her more fanatical supporters who took it even further). She ran her campaign like she was expecting to cruise to the nomination and failed to adapt quickly enough when it proved to be a contest.

Sexism was a factor in this campaign but teh far larger factor was Hillary herself.

[McCamy Taylor]

9. Your grandmother affected you in a way you may not quit appreciate.

She complained about sexism but instead of using that as an opportunity to engage the public on the subject of gender relations (as Obama so memorably did on race), she used it as a stick to beat on her opponants. Her approach wasn't "come, let us reason together", it was "go and feel guilty".

I am going to make a wild guess that your grandmother made you feel guilty (perhaps in a subtle way that you were not consciously aware of) about the way that women and helpless people are treated in this society and that is why you are teaching self defense to young women but with a large degree of resentment which leads you to disparage them when they show signs of weakness.

Hillary complained about it and she did so far more than was actually warranted (I'm not her responsible for her more fanatical supporters who took it even further).

Some people would say that by complaining about sexism or by voicing her objections to the way that Chris Matthews and others treated her campaign, she was engaging in a public discussion of the issue. How far it needs to be taken is a matter of opinion. As I wrote in the OP, women are taught that showing weakness--tears, fear, asking for help--is ok. However, they are never supposed to show anger. This means their opposition to things, their opinions, their feelings about negative situations gets turned into self hating emotions and actions such as anorexia, self mutilation etc. So, we have a society of half people---women who get to feel joy and sadness but not anger which leaves them with low self esteem, and men who get to feel joy and anger but not sadness which leaves them with low self esteem---because in order to have good self esteem you have to be told that all three of the basic emotions which children feel are valid simply because you feel them.

Note that when Hillary Clinton cried, the public approved.

When Hillary Clinton got mad about deceptive ads, the public disapproved. They did not want to see a female candidate angry. For several days the press accused her of being mentally ill, have a psychosis or suffering from multiple personality disorder. When she said "Shame" to Barack Obama it was a national disgrace. When he said "Shame" back later, no one even noticed. That was a manly thing to do. I don't think he has broken down in tears on the campaign trail---unless it was cry about something manly like a genocide.

[Prophet 451]

16. I think you are wrong

It's not that my grandmother made me feel guilty (at least, not that I'm aware of) but more that she caused me to be aware of how easy it is to say "not my problem". As I say, I'm aware that I've idealised her memory somewhat but the most important lesson that I think she passed on what that it wasn't enough to decry something, to wring your hands about how terrible it was, that you had to get involved and do something about it.

I ended up teaching self-defence by more or less falling sideways into it. When I finished high school (sixteen here), I didn't go to college, I tried to make it as a semi-pro wrestler, took bouncing jobs to make ends meet and studied the combat arts, mainly to make my wrestling better. Well, like most hopefuls, I didn't make it in wrestling and when that eventually became obvious and I'd got clean of painkiller addiction (ask me about the drugs in a wrestling locker room sometime), I went to college as an adult student studying law. Early on in my first year there, one of the girls in my class told me about some rape-prevention seminar she'd just been to which, from what she told me, seemed to amount to teaching girls that they should always be afraid of everythign and always submit to the rapist. I said something to the effect of "fuck that shit" and offered to teach her how to really defend herself. After a couple of weeks, she brought a friend along and then that friend brought another and in the end, we had to get the college to let us use the gym to train. I think the only part of the "official" rape prevention class I agreed with was don't bother screaming but in my case, it was because it was more important to save your breath and also because, having been in more than my fair share of combat situations, you're expecting people to scream and sout. What throws you off your stride, the really unnerving attitude is dead silence, the thousand yard stare that says they're already looking past you. When you say that I disparage the girls I was teaching for weakness, I think there's a misunderstanding there. I taught them to get angry and fight not because signs of weakness annoy me but because in a combat situation, they'll get you killed. A mugger or a rapist (and I'm aware that most rapists are acquintances) is not going to be backed down by their victim crying but they will back off someone who's ready and able to beat seven shades out of them. Getting upset is understandable in the aftermath of something like that but in the moment, getting angry is far more useful. I wish I could share with you the look on my girls faces when they realise that they can actually do this, they can defend themselves. Something which was only pointed out to me long after that was that the confidence gained, the ability to say "mess with me and I'll fuck you up" and mean it carries over to the rest of their lives as well. Now, I'll be the first to admit that's not very reasonable, I wish I could live in a world where that kind of training isn't needed (and if you have any ideas for how to bring that about, I'd love to hear them) but in the meantime, none of my girls are scared to walk the streets at night.

Personally, I would have found Hillary's complaints about sexism more meaningful if they hadn't become more pronounced as she started losing. Early on in the campaign, when asked about sexism, Hillary said something like (and I forget the exact words so this is an aproximation) she was getting flack because she was teh front-runner, not because of her sex. I didn't see the attacks on her as mentally ill, etc (I'm British so coverage of the primaries has been patchy) but I did see Hillary using sexism more as an excuse for running a bad campaign (and it was a bad campaign). I probably still wouldn't have supported her because I disagree with most of her policies (and most of Obama's for that matter) but personally, if her response to the genuine sexism had been to fight it from the start, perhaps calling Tweety on his idiocy to his face or making lengthy, nuanced speeches on the issue, on where it comes from, what the effect is and where we go from here, I would have found that more appealing. As it was, the complaints about sexism only came when Hillary started losing and they were only ever done in a very shallow way. There was no nuanced, reflective speech, there was just lots of little snippets of "sexism is bad, mmm'kay" which was neither imformative nor useful. Im my imagination, Hillary came out early on, say, a week before Iowa, and said something along teh lines of "We know what they'll call me. They'll say I'm weak, unbalanced..." and goes on in the same vein. That would have worked and it would have been up front in dealing with the complaints.

To my mind, complaining about something doesn't really accomplish much. Human nature being what it is, people tend to blow it off but fighting back, that gets things done. Seems like when you point a finger, no-one listens but when you ball that up into a fist, suddenly everyone's all ears. Shouldn't be that way. When you point a finger, you've got something to say but when you make a fist, the talking's all failed but the world is as it is. I'm aware that I'm not very emotionally balanced (and take medication to try and do something about that) but to me, it seemed that Hillary's campaign couldn't deicde on how she wanted to present herself. She could have presented herself as the mother to the nation or as the strong career woman or the consumate Washington insider. I have no idea how they would have played with the public but any of the three would have been worthwhile but instead, she seemed to vacilate between the three and while people in real life often do, the artificiality of politics means that came across as somewhat schizophrenic and the public couldn't keep up with it (I have a pretty low opinion of humanity as a mass). Whether it was true that Hillary was a victim or not, publically claiming to be on was always going to backfire because the public aren't very bright and because in your nation (and, to a lesser extent, my own), we are to some extent, trained to believe that the victim is somehow responsible for their own plight. No, that's not true but changing public opinion on that will take years, it's not something that can be done during a primary campaign.

[eilen]

46. Thanks for a thoughtful personal post.

You put some time into this and although it is as noted below, sorta wordy, you were very sincere and spoke from your heart and I appreciate your investment here.

[VotesForWomen]

11. sounds like just trying to dismiss good old fashioned "stay in your place, honey" sexism.

[FrenchieCat]

12. Hillary is a User.....

and I don't think it has anything to do with her gender assignment.

[JoFerret]

19. Interesting

I wonder when we will start hearing that kind of thing about Obama.

[kid a]

13. You could have saved me five minutes by proofreading and condensing your point

Way too long, wordy, without focus and filled with too many broad-brush statements to be taken seriously.

Dude, you don't have to leave half your outline in the text. I know where an intro is and when new paragraphs start.

You're not writing a philosophical treatise.

[JoFerret]

18. O you poor thing

But - you had all that time you could have saved by not answering.

[SoCalDem]

14. Every male alive had a mother, maybe a sister and sometimes a wife & daughters

This whole "sexism" stuff is starting to tire me..

I am a 59 yr old woman who entered the job market at age 11 (family business) , so I have seen a LOT..

Are SOME women discriminated against? sure
Are SOME not?..of course..

Most of the money in families is controlled by and /or spent by the "main female" in the home..

Most decisions about child-rearing, vacation choices, restaurant choices, movie choices,l and yes..even car purchases tend to be female-driven..

is it because the men are FORCING them to make these choices? or could is just be that the men in women's lives actually DO want to/need to share..and that women willingly take on making these choices..actually LIKE doing it?

For quite some time now women have been MORE represented in colleges and getting degrees more often than men..

The fact that they get paid less, is a remnant of times past, when men were expected to be the "main breadwinner", and old "traditions" die hard.. But them MEN aren't faring so well these days either.. I have read many articles that more or less prove that women AND men have made little actual financial progress in over 30 years now..

People WANT more now than they used to.. There was a time when MOST women wanted to be a wife/mother, and that was all they set out to do.

Times have changed, and most women these days DO have to work outside the home, in order for the family to have some semblance of "normalcy", but sexism is not the issue..it's FINANCIAL..

Many laws have been passed, trying to equalize things, but in reality, some people just have better jobs/lives than others, and trying to find someone to blame is a full time job for some people..



The underlying problem is that there are too few unions.. In a union job, everyone knows what everyone else makes, and they all have the same opportunities. As long as people do not push for unions, there will always be inequities, and sexism may be the name that some call it, but it's more than that..

And another thing.. as long as parents dress up their little girls like streetwalkers, and sexualize them at ever-earlier ages, it cannot be surprising to them that their daughters have self-esteem issues. When 7 year olds worry about "being cute" or "being fat", or "being sexy" at 12 or 13, they are setting themselves up to be the victim..

I had 3 sons, and I can tell you that my boys were all raised to respect women, and they all dated (and 2 married) very strong capable women. My youngest was a jock, and he can testify to the fact that they girls his soccer team scrimmaged against were every bit as good as the boys' teams, and none of those "jockettes" worried one bit about the way their hair looked, or if they had bruises up and down their shins.. they were cute girls with self respect and took NO shit off any boys..

If you are raised to be a victim, you will be a victim

[Darth_Kitten]

22. Women make a lot of choices in the household.....

because men won't. Maybe they should get off their butts and start being members of the family.
I've seen this happen so many times, in two-parent families Mom is doing everything because Dad won't.

[The Doctor.]

25. What's funny is that you don't recognize what a sexist attitude that is.

Suppose I said that 'women make less money because they don't work as hard'. That would be pretty sexist too, wouldn't it?

People like you really tend to miss the boat. You see only sexism 'against' women... even where it is not, but never think of the male-bashing like you do in your post as sexist.

It's very sad, and I hope someone helps enlighten you one day.

[dionysus]

26. if you can't see the sexism in that statement... hooooboy...

:eyes:

[McCamy Taylor]

35. Some of these families, the men have been chosen precisely because they won't interfere

or they have been trained not to interfere. I.e. when they try to get involved, the women who rule the family listen politely and then ignore their suggestions until they finally get the message that their interference is not welcome so go back and play with the boys and leave the women alone to manage things.

It sucks being a man in a matriarchy in the U.S. sometimes. I am not a man, but I think I understand what it is like for men who do not want to be transformed into great big paycheck earning mama's boys, because I remember what it was like being a child and knowing better than many of the adults around me.

[Scout]

36. "a matriarchy in the U.S."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[McCamy Taylor]

39. You are not Irish I am guessing. How do you think Clinton won NH?

http://www.comingintoclover.com/beyondthemildirishrose.html

Tens of thousands of peasant farmers' daughters who had grown up in peat-heated, dirt-floored cottages sailed across the Atlantic in steerage and within months were polishing silver in the Back Bay.
Young Irish women supported themselves, sent money home to their families, helped siblings come to America, and contributed to their church, according to McCaffrey. It's been said that St. Patrick's Cathedral was built with Irish women's wages.
Immigrant Irish-America was also rife with hard-working widows and women like the mother of James Tyrone in Eugene O'Neill's autobiographical ''Long Day's Journey Into Night,'' whose husband abandoned his small children and their mother, leaving her ''a stranger in a strange land.''
Female strength was a survival trait, and lively ladies with Irish last names were immortalized in songs like ''The Sidewalks of New York,'' and Harrigan and Hart's musicals, which introduced the tough-talking city girl with a heart of gold to the musical stage, according to music historian William H. Williams.
Irish families on both sides of the Atlantic believed in educating daughters as well as sons, and single Irish women in America have always worked, notes the historian and novelist Peter Quinn. Nuns, of course, ran the Catholic church's phenomenal infrastructure of parochial schools, hospitals, and social services. For much of the 20th century, there was a plethora of Miss Kellys and Miss Sullivans teaching in public schools and staffing religious and secular hospitals.
Snip
While hardly feminist, Irish tradition embraces far more independence among women than many realize. The Celts considered women morally superior to men, Thomas Cahill points out in ''How the Irish Saved Civilization.'' There has never been a cult of romantic love in Ireland; waiting women, damsels in distress, and spurned, suicidal lovers do not figure in legends.
As well, mothers have traditionally controlled the purse strings and taken responsibility for education and religion in Irish families, which social scientists describe as matriarchal. Irish girls are raised to be respectable and responsible, but not reticent. They do not expect to be taken care of. There is no such thing as an Irish-American princess.

[The Doctor.]

28. Agreed.

Wifey pays most of the bills, but I'll take care of what she can't get to and vice-versa.

I'm a neat freak with messy kids... so I actually enjoy cleaning, cooking, and household maintenance (even though I complain about it)

I was raised by a strong, assertive, industrious woman whose level of organization I could only dream of matching. She was a great example for her kids.

My wife likes having me do 'manly' things. When we're all going somewhere, for instance, she'll put the kids in the car and sit in the passenger seat so I can drive... whether it's her car or mine. Part of it is that I'm an excellent driver, but it's also that there's something she likes, a kind of security I know she feels when she puts that control in my hands. That makes me feel really great, and proud of my responsibilities 'as a man'. That said; It's never bothered me to have her drive, even though I prefer driving.

One of the best things parents can do is get their girls into sports. I cannot stress how HUGE that is in instilling girls with self-confidence. Women have less a psysio/neurological tendency to be 'wired' for kinesthetics. Creating a level of physical adaptivity gives everyone a greater level security that creates confidence and independance. This is very important for girls because their developmental phases tend to be less focused on kinetics. Females that are raised to be "girly-girls", or 'precious princesses' without the physical security of a well-developed sense of kinesthesia tend to break into emotional outbursts, and have greater anxiety and insecurity levels than their athletic counterparts.

Invariably, women who grew up playing sports tend to have better, safer, more stable relationships than those who are constantly in search of a man with the requisite physical aptitude to compensate for their lack of kinetic development.

Perhaps you've seen the pattern of 'girly' women always going for the big jerks?

It tends to work out that way because the big jerks are threatened by strong confident women, and instead seek out those that their physical prowess can overwhelm. The 'girly' women go for the big jerks because, to put it simply; they have what she lacks... physical confidence. Her only tool is often only emotional... so we have a dynamic of a physically insecure woman trying to manipulate a likely emotionally insecure man who then, out of frustration at not being able to handle the emotional dynamic, turns around and starts to exert physical control... and then he goes to jail. Ever notice how many abused women always seem to wind up with jerks? Guess how many of those women grew up playing sports.

Well, when a girl plays sports (I'm especially impressed with soccer and judo...), she has less of a tendency to attract, or even be interested in 'big jerks' because, frankly, physical prowess isn't as mysterious or impressive to her. Oh, sure she'll appreciate an athletic mate, but she'll be more inclined to parse his more subtle and intricate characteristic because she's not trying to 'fill a void'. She's already filled it in herself.

Teaching boys to get in touch with their emotions, to express themselves, is also very important to ensure that they form stable relationships. For that, music, reading, movies, and just quality contact with strong, confident women will ensure that they have a good eye for a great gal.


It sounds like you did great with your boys. Be proud!

[SoCalDem]

30. It's funny too, because my oldest son's wife makes MORE than he does

They have a "friendly" rivalry every pay review they get, because it shifts back & forth.. The fact that they both make mid-six figure incomes makes it silly to paupers like his Dad & me, but they joke about the disparity from time to time..

I agree with the "girly-girl" comments you made.. I have friends who repeatedly jumped from creep to creepier, when it came to men, and many of them never got the connection that it was THEIR own choice that was the problem..not really the men..

The soccer girls my son hung out with were as "tough" as any boy (The coach coached his son and daughter's teams), and he made those girls work as hard as the boys.. The girls we have kept up with, all went to college, have good jobs, husbands, babies..the works, so they did not "give up" their femininity.. They just realized that our lives are many-faceted..

[OzarkDem]

38. and that's why sexism is so acceptable to them n/t

[Why Syzygy]

15. Feminism will survive H.R.Clinton. In this case: sexism=mote . racism = LOG

So, you first.

[Annces]

27. DU seems to have little sensibility about sexism

It really gets people out of their comfort zone, so they say it does not exist. I think it is the Stockholm syndrome so gigantic people don't even want to talk about it. Sexism is alive and well. It is a cycle that looks like it will be continued for a lot longer.

[The Doctor.]

29. You're absolutely right. Here's a perfect example of mindless sexism;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6222480&mesg_id=6224918

It's sad when people can't see it.

[reflection]

37. It's pathetic, isn't it?

I celebrate my wife every day.

Maybe the women who are doing everything in their marriage need to 1) choose more carefully, and/or 2) find an enlightened male who is not afraid to help out.

[The Doctor.]

40. Or maybe that poster needs to not make such sexist blanket statements

about men.

[McCamy Taylor]

41. A Tale of Two Candidates Saying "Shame" Watch these videos.

Hillary says “Shame on you, Barack Obama” in response to misleading flyers that the Obama campaign has put out about her stance on NAFTA and health insurance in advance of the Ohio primary. In particular, Obama has been claiming that she will penalize people who did not sign up for health insurance even though she has never said that she would. Note that CNN, which is generally the least sexist of all the news networks labels this “Clinton’s Fury”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmet77JCniU

Note that in the following days, the corporate media used this as an excuse to armchair diagnose Clinton as being psychotic

http://mediamatters.org/items/200802270010

Between February 25 and February 27, members of the media asserted Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton displayed "mood swings," "could be depressed," "esembl someone with multiple personality disorder," and "has turned into Sybil," an apparent reference to a book and movie about a woman who developed multiple personality disorder after being severely abused as a child. Asserting in a February 25 National Review Online blog post that Clinton has displayed "erratic, roller-coaster, mood swings these past few weeks," CNBC host Lawrence Kudlow wrote: "Now I'm no psychiatrist, far from it, but I think a simple answer is that Senator Clinton could be depressed." Kudlow added, "Maybe Hillary's taking meds, but they're just not working for her? Could that be why she's always attacking Big Pharma?" In a February 27 New York Times column, Maureen Dowd claimed that Clinton "has turned into Sybil." … On the February 26 edition of CNN's The Situation Room, commentator Jack Cafferty claimed Clinton "esembl someone with multiple personality disorder." And on the February 25 edition of MSNBC's Hardball, host Chris Matthews declared: "I mean, most people have mood swings and attitude swings, which, I have to say in my case, change radically time to time, but to go from basically applauding him as a human being to saying he ought to be ashamed of himself is a wicked turn of tone, I think. But you say what you think." Chicago Tribune reporter Jill Zuckman responded: "It comes across as a little schizophrenic."

The message here is that if a woman complains, she is a shrew. When I asked people at DU to list Clinton’s “Dirty Tricks” this episode was listed by many. To complain that an opponent’s tactics are deceptive is considered a dirty trick if you are Hillary Clinton.

Now, watch this video of Barack Obama from a site entitled Obama gives Clinton a good tongue lashing

http://www.city-data.com/forum/2008-presidential-election/305091-obama-gives-clinton-good-tongue-lashing.html

Here is what is ironic about the comparison. In this situation Obama was filmed talking to wealthy west coast donors about how he has trouble reaching working class Democrats in the east because they “cling to their guns and religion and bitterness”. This was not anything that Clinton did to him (though many people tried to claim that Clinton did it to him). He had a case of foot in mouth disease. So, on the campaign trail, Clinton did what the Obama camp did with the “Race Memo” and with their three memos about “Sniper-gate “ and their deceptive ads about Clinton’s Healthcare plans including the Harry and Louise Ads II designed to scare Democrats at the thought of mandatory health insurance. And what Obama did to Clinton when she was the front runner in December when he told the public that her foreign policy was nothing more than tea drinking with foreign leaders. And basically what he has done whenever possible---criticize his opponent. It is called politics as usual.

Anyway, Obama has a thin skin as we have all learned by now. He can dish it out but he does not like getting it. Not from Clinton anyway. He says it is alright for McCain to call him elitist, but not Clinton, not even though he and his surrogates have called her a tea drinking, lying, racist, psychotic whore . And he says “Shame on her. “ And then he accuses her of politics as usual. And brags about how he never stoops to that kind of politics. Watch the whole thing, please, including the way that he 1) mocks Clinton, 2) the barely concealed anger 3) the way that he dismisses her . I could care less how he acts, but then I am a physician which makes me an honorary man. I have not been treated like a woman by this society. When some man like Barack Obama tries to treat me like that, I either ignore or put him in his place. However, I know lots of women, and I know just how angry he made them with that performance. He was every condescending boss blaming a subordinate woman after he got chewed out by his boss. Or every husband belittling his wife because he had a bad day at work. Obama was angry at Obama for having said the wrong thing in public, so he turned all his frustration and anger on his political opponent who did exactly what a political opponent is supposed to do---seize the political advantage, just as the Obama campaign has done.

If Obama selects a white male VP running mate, all John McCain has to do is persuade Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson from Texas to run with him and he has the election sewn up, because every single Republican and Independent woman in the country will vote for that ticket and a few Democratic women will cross over for them, too, figuring that McCain will not survive four years.

Unless some fences are mended. Sexism is very real. However, it is difficult for a lot of women to speak about it. When they try to complain they are treated the way that Hillary Clinton was---like whiners, freaks, bitches, psychotics. Many of them will keep quiet and express themselves in the voting booth.

[Skittles]

43. "women have it easy"

you really have no fucking clue, do you?

[dkf]

45. I call bossy males "asshole"