HRC excludes the voters of 15 states to claim popular vote lead

[bhikkhu]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3372823

Not that there is much point in Clinton-bashing threads here now, but the issue is worth bringing as the claim seems to be commonly accepted without mention that 15 states are, as HRC would say, disenfranchised by it.

And thanks for the data, madfloridian.

[kenny blankenship]

1. You just don't get it. It's about counting ALL THE VOTES

except for the people of 15 states.

[BzaDem]

2. This is completely false.

Popular Vote (w/MI
Uncommitted to Obama)** 17,627,284 48.7% 17,692,901 48.9% Clinton +65,617 +0.2%


For the actual totals, go here:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

Clinton wins with MI, and estimates from the 4 caucus states that don't report vote totals. She also wins with MI and uncommitted votes to Obama.

Obama wins without MI, and with MI and estimates from the 4 caucus states that don't report vote totals.

NONE of these estimates exclude 15 states. That is a complete fabrication.

[bhikkhu]

3. Caucus voters are unrepresented, if you look at the totals

The totals are caucus votes. Colorado, for instance, shows 80K for Obama, 38k for Clinton, but these were caucus votes and not equivalent in number to popular vote support. The more you look, really, the more the notion of a national popular vote tally seems to fall apart. It is not how the primary is done, so any measure is "unofficial" and subject to a variety of manipulations.

Try to figure out how many different possibilities RCP has listed: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

and how these possibilities are constructed. Good luck!

[BzaDem]

5. What are you talking about?

In CO, 80K for Obama and 38K for Clinton were the actual vote totals in the caucuses. Not state delegate equivalents, actual popular vote totals. What do you mean, "not equivalent in number to popular vote support?" Counting actual vote totals seems to be about as close to counting actual vote totals as you can get.

[bhikkhu]

8. That's a part of the problem - you don't know what I am talking about.

I am talking about the difference between caucus votes, which are in the CO totals, and a popular vote. Colorado didn't have a popular vote, so there is no popular vote total.

One is not equivalent to another, so there is no popular vote total for CO which would reflect the will of the voters of CO in a way equating them with the voters of OR, for instance.

The point being, there is no valid national popular vote total for our primary.

[jespwrs]

9. The notion

of any concept of a "popular vote" in this nomination process is absurd. Upon any investigation, the argument disintegrates. And this is no surprise-the process was not designed to count the popular vote nor is the contest decided by it. So there isn't even really an argument.

Here's a cool link that highlights some of the concepts involved:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/popular-vote-question.php

[the_real_38]

7. Well, if those are the correct numbers ....

... and I have no reason to doubt you, she does have quite a compelling case to present to the Super Delegates. Certainly food for thought. But I suppose this will all be settled fairly soon, and none of us should jump to conclusions about who will win at this point.

[sandnsea]

15. Party Delegates Elect our Nominee

There is no popular vote. There is no way to count a popular vote for caucus states. Some voters leave because their candidate isn't viable. Others never get a chance to vote for their candidate because of viability. She has no argument and the superdelegates know it. I don't know why otherwise intelligent people can't get it through their heads that she's lying, lying, lying.

[bhikkhu]

16. "correct" is not even on the table, and that is the point.

To get a popular vote total you have to have a popular vote. In our primary you have some popular votes and some caucuses. If you look at the RCP totals, they take the caucus votes for some states and make them equivalent to popular votes, which they are certainly not.

The voters of 15 states are unrepresented in the totals used by HRC for her SD argument. Which, btw, is quite clear to the great majority in decision-making positions and hardly likely to gain her a single SD vote. She knows that. HRC's argument seems largely designed to sow confusion and discontent everywhere else.

[SoCalDem]

17. The supers "know" about all her Rush-bo votes too though

they just don't know HOW MANY there were..It would be VERY lame to choose a candidate whose vote "total" included votes from many many people who voted for her, so their November candidate could beat the hell out of her..

All the races post Mccain-victory contain freep-votes..Hillary was glad to have them so they would give her a reason to keep begging for money from her minions..

[WyLoochka]

18. The argument is insulting

to Super Dels, especially those from caucus states - not "compelling" - it assumes they will be easily bamboozled by distorted claims about the "popular" vote which doesn't even exist.

[madfloridian]

4. Thanks for posting that again. It needs to be repeated.

She is claiming popular vote while disenfranchising many states. It is unreal.

:hi:

[slinkerwink]

6. so ironic she doesn't count those votes at all

[jespwrs]

10. kick

[madfloridian]

11. Well, my truthful post in GD got locked.

So glad you did this. The ones saying she is leading are still wide open.

Truth not that important.

[bhikkhu]

12. Probably a new one in the AM would be good...

it seems the argument is not going away, at least for now.

[Major Hogwash]

13. Monday would be a better time for it.

Some more super delegates are going to endorse Obama tomorrow anyway.

They're going to put this thing to bed by Tuesday or Wednesday.

[FrenchieCat]

14. There is no such thing as Popular vote in a primary race.......

that counts. period.

Everything else is dumbass made up shit.

[greguganus]

19. Well in a dumbass made-up-shit world, Hillary wins!!! n/t

[bhikkhu]

20. morning kick

having just seen another new "Hillary is ahead in the popular vote" thread.

[jespwrs]

21. Brunch Kick

[K Gardner]

22. Now that I've HIDDEN over a dozen WHITEY threads, giving this a well deserved KICK.

[Occam Bandage]

23. And gives herself every vote in MI, despite the RBC saying that MI wasn't a legit contest.

[TexasObserver]

24. "If we don't count the 15 states I got my ass kicked in caucuses ..."

Hillary. When she talks, she lies.