Clinton supporters: I agree with his policies, but I won't vote for him.

[mckeown1128]

What a ridiculous claim several Clinton supporters here have been making. They obviously agree with his positions.(Practically the same as Clinton's) But, they say they won't vote for him.

Now if you break down their arguments as to why they won't vote for Obama you will find.

Argument A: He has run a sexist campaign.

Ask them for evidence and you will no doubt get the response "just look around" or "the evidence has been posted all around DU and the internet." But, try to look for this evidence and all you will find is more posts telling you to look around. Call them out for evidence enough and you will eventually get Chris Mathews quotes or mentions of the Hillary-nut-crackers. Both of which have nothing to do with the Obama campaign. Their claim then boils down to...


Argument B: Obama has run a sexist campaign because he hasn't called out Chris Mathews and Republicans for sexist statements and actions.

Which is stupid because it is not Obama's job to run around being Hillary's campaign spokesmen. I have no doubt that if asked about these specific things he would disagree (renounce and reject and denounce) these actions and statements. Besides running around calling out sexism is not the indicator of sexist free campaigning. I don't remember Obama calling out the GA Obama-Curious George T-shirts. I guess by this logic Obama would be running an anti-black racist campaign.


Argument C: The DNC is sexist. The rules are set against Hillary.

This is the dumbest argument ever. The Democratic party is far from sexist. The women's movement has found a comfortable home in the Democratic party. The rules have nothing to do with Hillary losing the primary. The rules were set up long before Hillary ran for president.


Argument D: Stop using roe as a tool to force us to vote.

Well, it isn't Obama supporters using roe as some type of tool to force Clinton supporters to vote. The republicans have real plans to over turn roe. This is in FACT what is at stake. There is nothing wrong with Obama supporters pointing out policy reasons as to vote for Obama over McCain. (all though I must exclaim amusement at how quickly some Clinton supporter's claim that they no longer care about roe because they are too old to get pregnant) Guess what? If you don't like someone mentioning policy positions as a reason for voting for a candidate...then your probably planning on voting for the wrong candidate(McCain)


Argument E: I can't vote for Obama because he can't win in the fall.

Do I even need to point out how stupid this one is? No really?



The choice is Obama or McCain. I have to wonder why people would vote against their own policies. Republicans at least believe the crap the McCain shovels. They actually think McCain is the best choice for the county (as hard as it is to believe that people could be so stupid) But the Clinton supporters who won't vote for Obama believe that Democratic policies are the best for the country. So they are willingly voting against their own perceived interest. Why? What about Obama makes some Clinton supporters want to vote to send the country down the drain. Kerry, Gore, Clinton but not Obama. Why?

[MrsT]

1. You have heard about McCain's hired internet trolls, right?

I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[WeDidIt]

2. Hell, about 90% of them are volunteers!

Mostly leftovers from OpErAtIoN KAAAAAAOOOOOOOOS

[WeDidIt]

3. BTW

I think Hillary would be an excellent choice for Veep and I'm hopeful that the numbers crunchers think she's best because it would make an already historic election even more historic.

And you know she's high up on the short list.

[hokies4ever]

40. What about Harriett Christian?

:rofl:

[JKaiser]

4. What if McCain picked Clinton as his VP? Do you think that would be a winning ticket.. I hope not..

[catgirl]

10. That would be the kiss of death

Republicans wouldn't vote if she's on McCain's ticket.

[papapi]

5. Trolls have a nasty way about 'em. Too much bloodsucking I suppose.

[billybob537]

6. These people are not delusional

Contrary to popular belief, They are reiterating what the've been told by the Clinton campaign. All bullshit about being tied, winning the popular vote, and caucuses don't count has in fact driven these otherwise intelligent people BATSHIT crazy over percieved injustice/reverse racism.
It's time for Hillary to fix thisDisaster she caused.

[OzarkDem]

7. Like most of the Clinton supporters I know

I don't agree with his policies

I do think he's inexperienced and not ready

I think the odds are against him winning in November

[CTyankee]

17. Will you vote for him over McCain? n/t

[Flying Dream Blues]

21. Which policies do you not agree with? nt

[futureliveshere]

34. You can barely pass a thin paper sheet through their policy's!!!

They are so alike.

The only major difference I saw was the decision to engage/not engage with your enemy. Even the universal health care policy differences are more hype than reality.

[mckeown1128]

36. Which policies do you disagree with? nt

[FatDave]

50. It's been almost 5 hours since you were 1st asked. Which policies do you disagree with?

[NJmaverick]

8. It's known as SPITE

it's a natural byproduct of the bitterness that consumes a minority of Hillary supporters.

[izquierdista]

9. Has its origins in "racial purity"

Back in World War II, the Nazis didn't want to have much to do with atomic physics because it was "Jewish science". Good thing for the rest of us, as they would have been much harder to defeat had they pursued it.

A large number of the Clinton supporters are there because they are sexist -- they don't want ANY "male politics", just a female to vote for. Right now, their anger is turned against the most recent male opponent. If Obama was female, there wouldn't be any problem at all, since there wouldn't be anything to hone their bias against.

[leftofcool]

11. I do not agree with Obama's policies,

I do not believe he has the experience and I do not believe he has been totally truthful with the American people.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

13. which policies ? His opposition to the Iraq war? His oppo to cluster bombs?

Obama's policies are similar to Clinton's except for her war hawkishness.

Do you prefer a candidate who bombs first, asks questions later? (Hillary would "obliterate" Iran,
and voted for the Iraq war.)

Do you prefer the candidate who supports cluster bombs? (Hillary does).

The key differences between Obama and Clinton are:

1. he is more interested in persuing diplomacy first and war last.
2. he was opposed to the Iraq war from the start.

[Hugabear]

26. Do you honestly expect an answer?

The only sound I hear is crickets.

[Flying Dream Blues]

15. Examples? nt

[mckeown1128]

42. I have a question....

If you leave out their shared time in the US senate... Obama has 7 years as an Illinois legislator. Hillary has 4 years as a Senator... how much difference is that really?


What hasn't he been truthful with the American people about? and Why do you suspect this of him and not Hillary or McCain?

[billyoc]

12. DittoHeads and dingbats that won't affect the election one bit.

[Flying Dream Blues]

14. As someone who started out neutral on both candidates since mine dropped out...

I had an open mind. This whole bitter, spiteful attitude on the part of SOME of Hillary's supporters just baffles me, because as I've seen it, the only low tactics have come from Hillary, not Obama. It reminds me of the Republicans, attacking then playing the victim. Obama never said, "Shame on you"...Hillary did. Obama didn't try to smear Hillary's religion, but Hillary did to Obama ("Well he SAYS he's not a Muslim and I have no reason to doubt him" and "I would have denounced that person and left the church" etc.) Obama did not say Hillary was unelectable (presumably as in "inferior" woman, since they're claiming he's run a sexist campaign), but Hillary did, not in so many words. Obama never said Hillary was not qualified to be president, but Hillary said Obama was not (by saying only she and McCain were qualifed.) No, Hillary has run a textbook Karl Rove campaign, while what I've seen from Obama is a campaign that has chosen to take the high road, refreshingly so. In fact it has been the deciding factor for me, and I've been watching closely.

In my opinion, this attitude reeks of entitlement, and we all know how the entitled react when they don't get their due. I also have to hope that most of these people crying about the viciousness of Obama and his supporters are simply disruptors and trolls, because otherwise I fear for our party.

[Window]

20. What you said.

:thumbsup:

[KaptBunnyPants]

47. Very similar to the way I feel.

I was for Kucinich, then Edwards. I only came to Obama only after he had secured a strong enough lead to secure the nomination. I can understand liking Hillary more, or wanting to see a woman become president. But it won't happen this time, so unless you're happy with the way Republicans have run the country, it's time to move on.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. A very small and increasingly marginalized minority of the voting public

Fanatics and fanboys/fangirls.

Not worth doing battle with, anymore than a crazy LaRouche supporter.

These people will be shouting their crazy into the wind soon enough, so I wouldn't worry about them.

[Douglas Carpenter]

18. when reasonable people calm down and compare their records - reason will prevail

I have heard some people say that since Sen. McCain is a liberal or moderate Republican - he really wouldn't be that bad. After all he is against torture, he supported campaign finance reform and he accepts the scientific consensus about global warming.

But let's take a look and compare how different their voting records actually are.

Let's see if Sen. McCain is REALLY such a moderate or liberal Republican or a maverick:

All figures are interest group ratings from 2007, except when those figures were not available, in such cases I will post the ratings from 2006 or 2005-2006:

The link for Sen. McCain's ratings on Project Vote Smart:

http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=53270&type=category&category=45&go.x=10&go.y=12

The link for Sen. Obama's ratings on Project Vote Smart:

http://www.votesmart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=9490

Abortion Issues

In 2007 NARAL Pro-Choice America gave Senator Obama a grade of 100.

In 2007 NARAL Pro-Choice America gave Senator McCain a grade of 0.

Animal Welfare Issues

Senator Obama supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 75 percent in 2007.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 25 percent in 2007.
_________________________________

Civil Rights and Human Rights Issues

2007 American Civil Liberties Union gave Senator Obama a grade of 80.

2007 American Civil Liberties Union gave Senator McCain a grade of 50.
______________________________________________________________

2007 Senator Obama supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 85 percent in 2007

2007 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 15 percent in 2007.
________________________________________________________________________

2006 Senator Obama supported the interests of the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State 100 percent in 2006.

2006 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State 33 percent in 2006.
________________________________________________________________________

2005-2006 Senator Obama supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 83 percent in 2005-2006.

2005-2006 Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Civil Liberties Union 33 percent in 2005-2006.
________________________________________________________________________

2005-2006 Senator Obama supported the interests of the Human Rights Campaign 89 percent in 2005-2006

2005-2005 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Human Rights Campaign 33 percent in
________________________________________________________________________

Conservative Issues

Senator Obama supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 7 percent in 2007.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Conservative Union 80 percent in 2007.
_______________________________________________________________________

Education Issues

2007 National Education Association gave Senator Obama a grade of A.

2997 National Education Association gave Senator McCain a grade of F.
___________________________________________________________


Senator Obama supported the interests of the Teachers of English to Speakers of Other Languages (TESOL) 100 percent in 2007

Senator McCain supported the interests of the Teachers of English to Speakers of Other Languages (TESOL) 0 percent in 2007.
________________________________________________________________________

Energy Issues

2005-2006 Senator Obama supported the interests of the Campaign for America's Future 100 percent in 2005-2006 on energy legislation.

2005-2006 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Campaign for America's
Future 17 percent in 2005-2006 on energy legislation.
____________________________________________________________

Environmental Issues

2007 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to League of Conservation Voters's position, Senator Obama received a rating of 67.

2007 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to League of Conservation Voters's position, Senator McCain received a rating of 0.
______________________________________________________________

Family and Children Issues

2007 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to Children's Defense Fund's position, Senator Obama received a rating of 60.

2007 Based on a point system, with points assigned for actions in support of or in opposition to Children's Defense Fund's position, Senator McCain received a rating of 10.
________________________________________________________
(The Family Research Council is an extremely right-wing organization found and lead by Dr. Richard Dobson)

2007 In 2007 Family Research Council gave Senator Obama a grade of 0.

In 2007 Family Research Council gave Senator McCain a grade of 42.
_______________________________________________________________

Foreign Aid and Policy Issues

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Council for a Livable World 81 percent in 2007

Senator McCain supported the interests of the Council for a Livable World 0 percent in 2007.
____________________________________________________________________

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Peace Action 67 percent in 2006

Senator McCain supported the interests of the Peace Action 50 percent in 2006
________________________________________________________________


Senator Obama supported the interests of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation 83 percent in 2005-2006.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation 25 percent in 2005-2006
______________________________________________________________________.

Health Issues

Senator Obama supported the interests of the American Academy of Family Physicians 100 percent in 2007.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Academy of Family Physicians 0 percent in 2007
________________________________________________________________________


Senator Obama supported the interests of the American Academy of Emergency Medicine 100 percent in 2005-2006

Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Academy of Emergency Medicine 0 percent in 2005-2006.
__________________________________________________________________


Senator Obama supported the interests of the American Nurses Association 100 percent in 2005-2006.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the American Nurses Association 20 percent in 2005-2006.
_____________________________________________________________________

Labor

Senator Obama supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 100 percent in 2007.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 0 percent in 2007.
______________________________________________________________________

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 75 percent in 2007.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 8 percent in 2007.
________________________________________________________________________

Liberal

Senator Obama supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 75 percent in 2007

Senator McCain supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 10 percent in 2007.
_________________________________________________________________

Senator Obama supported the interests of the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score 95.5 percent in 2007.

Senator McCain supported the interests of the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy 40 percent in 2007

Veterans Issues

2006 Senator Obama supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 80 percent in 2006.

2006 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 20 percent in 2006.
________________________________________________________________

2006 In 2006 Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America gave Senator Obama a grade of B+.

2006 In 2006 Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America gave Senator McCain a grade of D

[seasat]

19. "I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned,"

That is an exact quote from John McCain. You can't get a much clearer statement of intentions from any politician. With the rightward shift of the court and the age of the liberal judges, the next president will either be able to keep the court near the center or turn turn it hard right. The choice here is clear.

[stevenleser]

24. If I was a disinterested observer, the irony would be delicious (n/t)

[Beacool]

22. I can't abide the man.

And it doesn't even have to do with Hillary. I think that he's an opportunist and ill prepared to handle the job. The more research I've done on him the least I like him. Starting from the unethical way he managed to throw out everyone else's petitions when he first ran for the state senate seat in 1996 and basically ran unopposed, up to the hypocritical way in which he renounced his church membership because it was hurting them, not him, but them.

Please.....

[stevenleser]

23. Sexist post. "I can't abide the 'MAN' "

You dont see him as a human being, you see him as a male. That is the whole problem.

[Beacool]

25. Wrong!!! I couldn't care less if he were a woman.

I would have then said: I can't abide the woman.

[Tim4319]

27. So, you are oaky with McCain becoming our next president?

[Beacool]

29. I won't vote for McCain.

If that's the question.

[Tim4319]

32. Not voting for Barack = a vote for McCain.

[mckeown1128]

43. That is a lie..... he didn't unethically throw anyone out of the race..

He challenged someone trying to cheat campaign laws... Please, go back and do more research. You have failed.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0508/Playing_hardball.html#comments

There is no doubt that Obama's candidacy has hurt his church. Look at the scrutiny and hatred that church is undergoing. Even if he decided to leave the church for political reasons, what does that have to do with being president. How is that even something you are basing your vote on?

[Bake]

44. "... hatred that church is undergoing ..."

Seems to me there's some hatred coming OUT OF that church. And it just keeps on coming out. Did Pfleger really think he was HELPING? Or did he just want to get his comedy club act on TV?

What it has to do with his being President is simple: JUDGMENT. If he actually HAD any principles, he would have left Trinity long ago. Now he leaves and it's like closing the barn door after all the cows have escaped.... too little, waaaay too late. By the same token, if he really thought there was nothing wrong, he could have shown some SPINE and stayed.

Bake

[mckeown1128]

48. I'm sorry but I don't see anything wrong with Trinity...

I see something wrong the media editing 30 years of Obama's preacher down to the top 45 seconds of sound bites.

Maybe you missed the part of the constitution wear it said there should be no religious tests for elected office. What exactly is your problem with Obama having gone to Trinity anyway?

Why is his church attendance any of your business. Why don't you pay attention to policies and ability to get things done... you know stuff that actually matters. Stuff that isn't Hannity and Colmes topics.

[Bake]

51. Then if there's nothing WRONG with it, Obama was spineless to resign.

You can't have it both ways.

The Constitution prohibits any formal religious test for public office. That doesn't mean the individual voters don't impose their own religious test. It would be very naive to think there's no "informal" religious test for office in America. There is. That's too freakin' bad.

My qualms with Trinity have to do with the hate spewed from its pulpit, and Obama's uncritical acceptance of that for 20 years.

Bake

[mckeown1128]

49. I happen to have no problem with Trinity.

I do have a problem with the media editing 30 years of a preachers sermons down to 45 seconds of sound bites.

By the way did you miss the part of the constitution that said there should be no religious tests for holding office? Obama's church attendance is none of your business. You keep mentioning Pfleger...who has nothing to do with Obama other than being an acquaintance, but were you this outraged when Hillary went on her little rant about "the sky opening up and blah blah" about Obama. The way I see it your outraged that someone who happens to know Obama insults Hillary but you give a free pass to Hillary who directly insulted Obama and his supporters.


But still if your basing your vote on Obama's church attendance...then there is no hope for you. Seems to me like your just looking for an excuse not to vote for the bla...the candidate.

So really what's your problem with Obama?

[GoldieAZ49]

28. How about he doesn't have the "superior judgement' he claimed was the basis

for his campaign?

He is a rookie. His "judgement" is not only weak it is pathetic.

Experience matters for the leader of the free world.

[NatBurner]

30. like gwb?

a lot of good his experience did for us

[GoldieAZ49]

35. good comparison

same thing different party

[mckeown1128]

39. Umm... Hillary is the one claim experienc in our party...

like GWB. So in that case you are right.

[mckeown1128]

37. So you are saying that 4 US Senate years so heavily

out weights 7 Illinois senate years it is the difference between the necessary experience and "pathetic" experience?

[mckeown1128]

38. So you are saying that 4 US Senate years so heavily

out weights 7 Illinois senate years it is the difference between the necessary experience and "pathetic" experience?

[TexasObserver]

31. Anyone stupid enough to vote for McCain deserves what they get.

If Hillary's low income and retired voters are stupid enough to vote against their own interests, let them suffer the consequences that brings. Either McCain wins, and they see their rights and benefits hurt, or Obama wins, and they render themselves meaningless in the most important presidential election in many decades. Either way, they're stuck with knowing they opted out of a great historical event because they were too pissy to vote their own interests.

[JVS]

33. They're just dumbfuck blowhards. Pay them no mind.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. I suspect we are seeing some who are trolls

and a few who are going through the phases of grief

[grace0418]

45. It's not just Roe v. Wade, it's everything we hold dear, from here on out.

If we allow John McCain the chance to pack the SCOTUS with a majority of right-wing fascist fuckers like Scalia, we can say good-bye to everything that is good and right about this country. Roe v. Wade is a big part of the horrors they can unleash on us, but it's just the beginning.

[WillTheGoober]

46. I actually just dislike a lot of Obama's supporters ...

Not him.

:)

W.