The UNdemocratic Underground

[busymom]

How sad to see a group of supposed democrats reveling in what they perceive as the end of a 'Clinton Dynasty'. These same people aren't opposed to the Kennedy 'Dynasty' and support Kerry keeping the seat he's had since what....1984?! Are you the same people who rallied around Bill Clinton when he was president, forgave him his weaknesses and celebrated what a successful president he was until....Hillary Clinton made her bid? Do you think the Kennedy's don't have skeletons? Hmmm...you shouldn't have to google it to know...though I still respect everything that Ted Kennedy has done for the state of MA and for the democratic party. I'm terribly sorry for him and his family over his recent cancer diagnosis, but it doesn't change the facts.

I couldn't stand Theresa Heinz, but I still voted for John Kerry. I never made disparaging remarks about Theresa or was otherwise negative out of respect for John Kerry as a candidate and our democratic party.

I'm not crazy about Obama, but I will vote for him. I don't like Michelle Obama, but I won't make negative remarks about her or even discuss it. It's not about me.

For many of you though, this has become a blood sport. The Clintons have done a lot of good things for this country and for the democratic party. Until a year ago, many of you believed this too. By cutting her and Bill apart personally, you have lowered yourself to the level of a republican. In my mind, you officially walked away from the democratic party.

You also know that neither Clinton nor Obama are responsible for the press (both good and bad) that they are getting. Have you all forgotten how the media loves to create stories? So many times, here, I feel like screaming "It's the media, stupid". They twist things, take words out of context and make the news. Have you all forgotten the Dean 'Scream'. They have helped paint a certain protrait of the Clintons and the Obamas. That is fact.

Step back, people. Rejoin the Democratic party. Ooga, Booga, Wooga is not the battle cry of the democratic party. Freedom, Change, Power to the People...that should be our battle cry.

Get back on board. Bashing democrats should not be allowed at the democratic underground. Even if you don't like them....



How democrats can tear down the Clintons is a mystery to me.

[RL3AO]

1. Its been a tough and bitter campaign.

People have put many hours over many months into getting Obama nominated. I promise you that in 3 weeks, everyone here will love HRC again.

[PoliticalAmazon]

94. Look to Hillary for to place blame. She used pig-slop Bush/Rove politics...

insulting OBama supporters and African-Americans, lying, cheated, and tried to change the rules and goalposts to suit her needs.

She has done much damage to the Democratic Party. I believe it will take a decade or more to fix the damange she has done. If she believes that A-As are going to roll over and play doormat for her, she is wrong. The A-A's I know say they will never forgive the Clintons for using them and then turning on them.

So to act like there is something wrong in being happy to defeat Clinton is delusionl. It's like blaming us for being happy that Bush Jr is leaving office with the lowest popularity numbers since PNs started being collected.

Good riddance to both. I hope they have been successful in destroying their own legacies. God knows, they tried hard enough to do so.

[JuniperLea]

106. Right... all that shit means she held a gun to everyone's head

and they were forced to act like assholes.

:eyes:

[PoliticalAmazon]

124. If you think we are going to sit meekly and allow her to steal an election...

by cheating, changing the rules, and changing the way votes are counted, you are quite wrong.

We cut our teeth on Bush/Rove pig-slop politics in the BushJr 2000 campaign, and then honed our skills in the Bush Jr 2004 campaign.

Hillary is using the same tactics to steal the primary, and she should expect to be treated like Bush Jr since she so eagerly emulates his pig-slop politics.

[JuniperLea]

142. What a crock

She may have tried to change the rules, but the DNC didn't let that happen. Whining does not help, it hurts. Making false statements does not help either. Same tactics... bullshit. There is enough genuinely wrong with the way primaries are run without making shit up.

[PoliticalAmazon]

155. Exactly who is "making things up"? .....

Hillary DID try to steal the election by changing the rules. She doesn't get a free pass for it because the DNC didn't let her do it 100% the way she wanted. She had agreed to not count FL and MI, and whined and wheedled and lied to the media and her supporters until the DNC was forced to compromise on an agreement HILLARY HAD BROKEN.

Before you start claiming "bullshit" you might want to look at the bottom of your own shoes. Trying to whitewash what Hillary has done doesn't help anyone. In fact, it sets us up for future election-stealing attempts and other pig-slop politics by the Clintons because they truly are like Bush Jr, and if they get away with something once, it will only embolden them to do it again later.

[JuniperLea]

167. No one is trying to whitewash anything

She wasn't allowed to break any rules. Not one. Seating the delegates the way they did was already in the rules before she came along. The DNC needs to clean up their act and keep Republican state leaders from going against the primary date rules. Hillary manipulated the DNC, no question, but NO RULES WERE BROKEN!!!

What she did is far and away different from what BushCo did... your claims are things made up.

[PoliticalAmazon]

168. Both Hillary and BushJr attempted to steal the election....

The fact that Hillary was not successful does not at all mitigate the fact that she attempted to steal the election.

You cannot explain away that she attempted to steal the election. She failed, but she is still guilty of the attempt.

If she had been successful, she would then be guilty of stealing the election. She wasn't successful, but it wasn't for lack of trying.

[JuniperLea]

172. Bullshit

There is no way she could "steal" the election by coercing SD's. There is no way she could have stolen this election by using the SD's, or any other delegates. "Steal" is the wrong word, and this is nothing even close to what BushCo. did!

Why don't you follow Obama's lead, ignore Hillary, and use all this hate energy on McCain? That's what Obama is doing. Clearly he thinks it's the right thing to do.

The DNC is fucked up and needs to change it's ways. There is no way they should have allowed the Republican state leadership in MI and FL to change the Democratic Primary dates. This is the seed that grew the bitter fruit.

[PoliticalAmazon]

176. Before Bush used the USSC to steal 2000, many would have said....

"there is no way he could steal the election by coercing the USSC."

She attempted to change the rules regarding what she had agreed to so that she could win. She attempted to use the SDs (before that wouldn't have worked) to steal the election. She has tried to convince others to not count the caucus states to steal the election.

She was not successful, but that does not change the fact that she tried to steal the election.

Coddling her won't help anything. She needs to face the consequences for her heinous attempt to steal the primary.

The only difference between Hillary's attempt to steal the election and Bush's attempt to steal the election is that Bush had more money and more powerful contacts so he was able to be successful.

Hillary doesn't have the money and no longer has the choke-hold she had on the DNC and its SDs, so she was unsuccessful.

The intent was the same. The only reason she wasn't successful is because she didn't have the resources Bush Jr had in 2000. If Hillary owned a majority of the USSC justices, and had the finances to support the efforts, there is nothing to indicate that she would not have taken it to the USSC.

[JuniperLea]

178. Just dense

welcome to ignore

[PoliticalAmazon]

180. You have yet to post an argument other than restating your opinion....

Please do put me in ignore.

[JuniperLea]

191. You have yet to post anything that could be construed as

an intelligent and truthful back up to what you claim is your opinion.

I hate when ignore doesn't work.

[Two Americas]

184. ludicrous

Absolutely ludicrous.

"The only difference between Hillary's attempt to steal the election and Bush's attempt to steal the election is that Bush had more money and more powerful contacts so he was able to be successful."

The only difference you say. The ONLY difference.

No matter how badly you want something to be true, that does not make it true. Think about what you are saying here: that there is no evidence that given the opportunity a person would not have committed a crime. That is always true for all people in all circumstances. No one can prove that they would not commit a crime given the opportunity.

Clinton is not synonymous with the "DLC" let alone Bush, and this attempt to associate all that is evil with your opponent speaks to the profound weakness of the Obama campaign and Obama supporters.

In the all-or-nothing for-us-or-against-us fantasy world that many Obama supporters are living in, it is probably not possible to imagine that many of us are arguing with Obama supporters not out of disloyalty to the party, but rather out of concern for the future of the party. If all who introduce any dissonance into that fantasy world are to portrayed as enemies, one no different from the others, including Clinton, her husband, her supporters and the 47% or so of Democratic voters who did not vote for Obama, then we are shrinking the tent going into the general and thereafter. If anything goes when it comes to taking down perceived enemies - "if Clinton owned the Supreme Court she would be stealing elections" - then we have lost any claim to the moral high ground. That spells defeat and is a concern. (I suppose now that I have used the word "concern" someone will feel compelled to talk about "concern trolls" which by the logic in vogue at DU will mean that my post equals concern troll equals freeper equals McCain supporter, and therefore will "prove" that anyone objecting to anything an Obama fanatic says is therefore for Clinton, and that means therefore a Republican.)

[JuniperLea]

190. Well said

I'm so tired of the bullshit. So very tired. Every once in a while I find a great post... yours is great, and I really needed it today. Thanks:)

[SoCalDem]

AMEN !! I started out actually LIKING her and feeling sorry for her & Bill

for all the shit they put up with. I could have EAGERLY voted for her in the fall.......

UNTIL....


She started running a putrid, racist campaign..

I am a white 59 year old woman, and I heard the "dog whistle"..

The fact that "she's a good democrat" and has done great things for us all" does NOT give her the right to inject racial divisiveness ...

She distorted facts, stiffed her suppliers, ran up HUGE debts, and injected all kinds of meanspirited innuendo into the campaign.

SHE LOST ON MARCH 4TH and never had the common sense or dignity to drop out so we could have a strong, well-rested candidate.

It became very obvious to me that she was IN IT TO GET IT..not necessarily to "win" it..and she would GET IT, in any way possible...even if it involved blatant lies, cheating, dirty tricks in abundance...ANYTHING TO GET IT...

Obama had to scrupulously AVOID any serious attacks on her, lest he be painted as the "scary, mean black guy beating up on the Poor little white first lady"..and she KNEW it, so she pounded him relentlessly..knowing full-well that he could NOT respond in kind.

I saw him as an eternally patient, forgiving, and even-keeled sort of person.very UNLIKE her..

She has set women's rights BACK, by all her antics. SHE was the one who KNEW this would be tough, and every time SHE or her campaign gets bad press, she screams "SEXISM".."NO FAIR".."BE NICE TO GURLZ"..

Obama has been harrangued and stalked by her and has been subject to multiple racial slurs, and has resisted showing how upset & angry he MUST be..

It showed me that HE has the necessary temperament to BE president..no matter HOW MUCH she wants it and thinks SHE deserves it.

[DeeDeeNY]

216. Those are my thoughts exactly, including starting out liking her

You've stated it perfectly, including the fact that on March 4 she was finished!

(I'm the exact same demographic as you, including the same age! :hi: )

[NightWatcher]

2. and Hillary supporters have been all sunshine and roses?

[busymom]

12. I have never disparaged Barack Obama personally...

and though many democrats here have expressed their support for HRC, the majority of them have not called Obama out on a personal level the way that Hillary and Bill have been called out.

The personal lives of the candidates is always an issue...but not the way it has been for HRC.. I expect it from the media...but not from democrats. People here have been more vicious in their hatred for Hillary than my diehard Republican father.

[virtualobserver]

25. what you have to understand is that a lot of people felt betrayed.....

by everyone who voted for the IWR.

Hillary was the least apologetic Democrat for this vote.

The moment she stops attacking Obama, and stops trying to undermine the process by which he has been chosen, for me at least all will be more than forgiven.

[busymom]

31. Feeling betrayed is no excuse.

[virtualobserver]

39. There is no excuse for her unwillingness to admit that she was wrong

[damntexdem]

59. That's right, it's not an excuse, because no excuse is needed. It is a REASON!

And it is a very valid reason. I liked Hillary through the 1990s, much more than I did Bill. I was very glad when she was elected senator. And then she screwed it all up. After the IWR, I was down on her and the other spineless Dems who caved into the Bushistas and enabled their war crimes. But I forgave those, like Edwards, who recanted. HRC would not, so I totally soured on her. She now claims she wants to end the war, but she still does not admit that her vote was a mistake. So I just have no use for her.

Still, were she the Dem candidate, I would still have to hold my nose and vote for her over McCain or any other Rethug.

[The Doctor.]

78. Uhh... actually, it is.

The betrayal of an ideal reflects pretty soundly on one's character, therefore holding that against them is as much a defense of ideals as it is 'just plain sore'.

I don't hold her vote for the IWR against her as much as other DUers have a right to, but she's definitely gone out of bounds enough during this primary, and shown a goo deal of hypocrisy in the process, to warrant the perfectly democratic reactions you're seeing on this site.

As I said in another thread; "Legitimate criticism of Democrats won't necessarily be 'bashing'.
...
If she continues to undermine his candidacy, she'll take the same sort of criticism, if not more, that is directed at the Democratic leaders that sometimes take impeachment off the table or fail to hold the hearings they promised."

Most of the people that criticize her now do so for legitimate reasons, but they have not forgotten that the Clintons have done some good over the years.

Likewise, don't let yourself forget that that not everything Clinton did was all goodness and light.

[JuniperLea]

145. No excuse for a lack of self-control...

Not at all.

[The Doctor.]

151. What constitutes a "lack of self-control"? Criticism? Hardly.

If what you're talking about are the people that go overboard on foul language, then sure. But there aren't all that many of them.

Saying, "I fucking hate her", for instance, is an honest expression of disgust. In the vast majority of cases, she's earned it.

I can make the same case that all the unsupported charges of 'sexism' and 'hatred' from the Obama campaign are despicable cases of the 'lack of self-control'. There is no excuse to make claims that are clearly bogus.

If you are saying that everyone must 'be polite' while commenting on Clinton's behavior, then perhaps you need to find a DB that doesn't offend your sensitivities.

[JuniperLea]

173. No... the time has long since past that Hillary should have been off all our radar!

Obama has moved on, and rightfully so. He should have done it right after Iowa, IMHO. There is no good sense in the continued bashing of the Clintons. It only serves to further divide. A better tactic would be to follow Obama's lead and go after the REAL enemy... McCain. There is no good reason NOT to do this.

[The Doctor.]

174. I can agree with that, but that would mean

ignoring all the brazen attacks, and we know by now that is not acceptable.

[JuniperLea]

187. It is more than acceptable... it's the right thing to do...

Following Obama's lead is the right thing to do.

[Blue_Roses]

115. that's an absolutely

ludicrous comment. Feeling betrayed is ABSOLUTELY a reason to feel this way. I have always admired and liked Hillary. I even sat on the fence for a long time. But when I saw her stand up and scold, yes scold, Obama in Ohio, I was in shock. Shock because of her way of approaching it and shock that I had now witnessed the reason why so many can't stand her. I had defended her and Bill and now I'm eating a ton of crow with some family members. Then Bill chimed in with his "conspiracy theories" to the point it's now so ridiculous, no one can take him seriously.

Hillary and Bill play a HUGE part in this too. When they began to take some of the blame for their behavior and sense of entitlement, I can began to smile when I see Hillary and Bill again. Do you not think it's heart-breaking to those of us who admired and supported these two? Yes, it saddens us too.

[JuniperLea]

144. Betrayal is no excuse for bad behavior... eom

[The Doctor.]

153. "Bad behavior is no excuse for bad behavior"?

Please do tell... what constitutes 'bad behavior'?

What are your standards?

[JuniperLea]

169. You aren't quoting me properly

And the list of what I would consider bad behavior has grown exponentially since the beginning of this primary, and is too long to post here.

The main thing is: There is no good reason for the continued pummeling of the Clintons here on DU. None. The only thing the incessant whining does is to further divide everyone.

Obama has moved on and is not spending one red cent arguing with, commenting on, or debating Hillary in any way, shape, or form, and this has been the case for many weeks now. Yet many of his supporters here ignore Obama's lead. Obama has shifted his focus to the real enemy... McCain. It was the right thing to do, and I'm more than happy to see him do this.

The continued pummeling is a sad, sad waste of energy. Hillary is toast.

[The Doctor.]

175. It means the same thing.

So long as Clinton and her supporters try to spread BS, people will rightfully respond to it.

If they weren't doing it, no one would be 'pummeling' her.

It really is that simple, and hopefully it will be over soon.

[JuniperLea]

177. What about the plethora of anti-Clinton threads started by Obama supporters?

This is what I'm talking about.

[The Doctor.]

186. If they're legitimate criticisms, then so what?

[JuniperLea]

192. It's a waste of energy... and most aren't legitimate

It's time to move on and fight the real enemy. Anything else is senseless and wasteful and divisive.

But hate is addictive, so it will no doubt continue.

[The Doctor.]

193. Unfortunately, what you call 'hate' is mostly legitimate anger.

And so long as Clinton doesn't try to undermine Obama, it will dissipate.

[JuniperLea]

196. A rose is a rose... whatever you call it... it's a waste

The energy should be focused on the real enemy. The continued "legitimate anger" toward Hillary only serves to further the divide and waste time and effort that could be used toward making sure a Democrat sits in the White House next term.

[JuniperLea]

143. People are going to continue to blame Hillary for their own bad behavior...

It's pretty disgusting. By keeping this up, they are admitting they have no self-control... "When Hillary steps down I'll stop." They have no desire to take the high road at all. No desire to do anything but continue to hate... hate is addictive. I wonder who will be tied to the whipping post next.

They are so wrapped up in their hate they can't even take Obama's lead and turn their focus on McCain. For some strange reason, they would rather ignore Obama.

:shrug:

[knixphan]

69. seconded.

[druidity33]

213. That's a HUGE load of shite.

and you know it.

"supporters" on both sides have been "vicious in their hatred" here at DU. For you to pretend otherwise is just foolish.

:shrug:

[enid602]

58. Obama

They (the Clintons) never paid apparatchiks to do hit jobs on their opponents on the internet, claiming that they were responsible for Iraq, NAFTA, outsourcing, the death of affirmative action, welfare reform, and of course claiming that they are actually neo-cons. Of course, Obama never uttered a negative word himself. Short a complete admission of wrongdoing and an apology to the Clintons, I don't think Team Obama will be able to do anything to attract the disenfranchised Clinton voters. They may not care; it is, after all about Him.

[Window]

66. Yeah. Whatever.

[damntexdem]

81. The Clinton's couldn't claim that opponents were responsible for what Bill Clinton did.

Even they are not quite that Rovian. Bill Clinton, generally with HRC's support, was responsible for NAFTA, much outsourcing, some dying of affirmative action, and welfare so-called "reform"; and Hillary is herself guilty not only of the IWR but also of a refusal to admit that it was a mistake. I said all through Bill's presidency that he was the best Republican president of the 20th Century; and I responded to many who criticized him by noting that we had all known all along that he was no liberal, so shouldn't expect him to be. So maybe the Clintons are neo-neo-cons. ;-)

HRC is owed no apology; Bill even less so. Unless they get behind the Party's presidential candidate, they should be ostracized from the Party. Actually, I have some hopes that they will, although I doubt that they will campaign very strongly, or effectively, for Obama.

Anyone with even an ounce of brains will vote for the Dem candiate, whether that candidate is, as almost certainly, Obama or, through some horrible catastrophe, HRC.

[enid602]

120. ironic

And how much time has Obama devoted to talking about reinstating programs or rolling back reforms of other programs? NONE.

[stillcool]

111. No. it is about us...

not about the Clinton's. Speaking of apologies...

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail
A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out. "Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html

Kerrey Apologizes to Obama Over Remark
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4031436
Kerrey's mention of Obama's middle name and his Muslim roots raised eyebrows because they are also used as part of a smear campaign on the Internet that falsely suggests Obama is a Muslim who wants to bring jihad to the United States.
Obama is a Christian.
The Clinton campaign has already fired two volunteer county coordinators in Iowa for forwarding hoax e-mails with the debunked claim. Last week, a national Clinton campaign co-chairman resigned for raising questions about whether Obama's teenage drug use could be used against him, so Kerrey's comments raised questions about whether the Clinton campaign might be using another high-profile surrogate to smear Obama.

Clinton Co-Chair Resigns Over Obama Drug Remark
By JAKE TAPPER
Dec. 13, 2007
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3992371&page=1
Bill Shaheen, the Clinton campaign's New Hampshire co-chair, stepped down Thursday one day after publicly raising the issue of the youthful drug use of her chief opponent, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois

Shaheen, the husband of a former New Hampshire governor and an influential Democrat, was a constant presence by Clinton's side whenever she campaigned in the Granite State, where recent polls have her and Obama in a dead heat for first in that first-in-the-nation primary state.

Hours after the Wednesday release of a CNN/WMUR poll showing Obama in a statistical tie with Clinton for the first time among New Hampshire Democratic voters, Shaheen told The Washington Post that should Obama get the nomination, "one of the things Republicans are certainly going to jump on is his drug use."

Shaheen said Obama having been so open -- as opposed to then-Gov. George W. Bush, who refused to detail his past drug use during his 2000 presidential campaign -- will "open the door to further queries on the matter.
---------------------------------------
On Sunday, a second Clinton staffer -- Linda Olson, an Iowa County volunteer coordinator, who followed Jones County coordinator Judy Rose -- was asked to resign after reporters discovered she had forwarded an e-mail repeating the scurrilous allegation that Obama, a member of the United Curch of Christ, is a Muslim plant.

Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs

Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance
By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008
The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's
Super Tuesday primary, which she won.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-

2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html

Source: Newsday
Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Barack Obama Accepts Apology From Hillary Clinton
Washington D.C. 12/15/2007 09:17 AM GMT (FINDITT)

Hillary Clinton went straight to Barack Obama with an apology following a staffer's remarks about any skeletons that may be lurking in Obama's closet, pointing out that she had accepted the staffer's resignation over the disparaging remarks. Obama accepted her at her word, according to his campaign staff, and is moving on without letting it interrupt his campaign plans.


Obama is currently leading the polls in Iowa and New Hampshire, the two early primary states often considered key to the process, according to numbers at usaelectionpolls.com, but on a national level Clinton still holds a huge lead. The most recently posted poll results show Obama with 31 percent of the
probable voters in New Hampshire backing him with 29 percent showing support for Clinton.
http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=30629&cat=5

Clinton Camp Pushes O-Bomber Links: Ignores
Her Own Radical Ties
By: Justin Rood

ABC News - The Hillary Clinton campaign pushed to reporters today stories about Barack Obama and his ties to former members of a radical domestic terrorist group -- but did not note that as president, Clinton's husband pardoned more than a dozen convicted violent radicals, including a member of the same group
mentioned in the Obama stories."Wonder what the Republicans will do with this issue," mused Clinton spokesman Phil Singer in one e-mail to the media, containing a New York Sun article reporting a $200 contribution from William Ayers, a founding member of the 1970s group Weather Underground, to Obama in 2001.
In a separate e-mail, Singer forwarded an article from the Politico newspaper reporting on a 1995 event at a private home that brought Obama together with Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, another member of the radical group.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4330128&page=1

Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says. Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in
her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/a-feisty-bill-

clinton-defends-nevada-lawsuit/
CLINTON ALLIES SUPPRESS THE VOTE IN NEVADA...
On Meet the Press on Sunday, Hillary Clinton said her campaign had nothing to do with a lawsuit--written about by Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel--that threatens to prevent thousands of workers from voting in the Nevada caucus on Saturday.
Back in March, the Nevada Democratic Party agreed to set up caucus locations on the Vegas strip for low-income shift workers, many of them members of the state's influential Culinary Union, who commute long distances to work and wouldn't be able to get home in time to caucus. It was an uncontroversial idea until the Culinary Union endorsed Barack Obama and the Nevada State Education Association, whose top officials support Clinton, sued to shut down the caucus sites.
The Clinton camp played dumb until yesterday, when President Clinton came out in favor of the lawsuit.
Clinton's comments drew a heated response from D. Taylor, the head of Nevada's Culinary Union, on MSNBC's Hardball. "He is in support of disenfranchising thousands upon thousands of workers, not even just our members," Taylor said of Clinton. "The teachers union is just being used here. We understand that This is the Clinton campaign. They tried to disenfranchise students in Iowa. Now they're trying to
disenfranchise people here in Nevada, who are union members and people of color and women."
Rank-and-file members of Nevada's teachers union also come out against the lawsuit filed by their leadership. "We never thought our union and Senator Clinton would put politics ahead of what's right for our students, but that's exactly what they're doing," the letter stated. "As teachers, and proudmDemocrats, we hope they will drop this undemocratic lawsuit and help all Nevadans caucus, no matter which candidate they support."
The lawsuit's opponents make a persuasive point. Creating obstacles to voting is what the GOP does to Democrats, not what Democrats should be doing to other Democrats.

Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.
Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html

January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
By Julie Bosman
KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”

COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.

Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, apologized for comments he made at a Clinton campaign rally in South Carolina on Sunday that hinted at Obama's use of drugs as a teenager.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-

johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET
The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis.
----------
Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg
Hillary Supporter Cuomo: Obama Tried To "Shuck And Jive" With Media
The Hillary campaign might have their own surrogate with foot-in-mouth syndrome who they'll have to deal with. During an appearance yesterday on talk radio -- at almost the same time as Obama co-chair Jesse Jackson Jr. questioned Hillary's tears -- New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo used some words about Barack Obama that have a very troublesome racial history.

"It's not a TV crazed race. Frankly you can't buy your way into it," Cuomo said, according to Albany Times Union reporter Rick Karlin. "You can't shuck and jive at a press conference," he added. "All those moves you can make with the press don't work when you're in someone's living room."

The phrase "shuck and jive" refers to mischievous blacks behaving innocently in the presence of an authority figure, so as to lie and get out of trouble.

[enid602]

152. Get a life

It's just this sort of evangelical listing of websites and references to prove that Obama's a victim and the Clintons are evil that will in the end turn off Clinton supporters. This approach won't work well in the GE.

[stillcool]

203. I have a great life!

thanks! You have a problem with sourced newspaper articles? I respond to individuals, and I'm tired of the threats regarding the world of "Clinton supporters".

[jonestonesusa]

208. You have a problem with facts?

Usually that's how issues are debated, by referring to news sources and other information. Is it evangelical to look at the history of this campaign to show how many times the Clintons have gone below the belt on a candidate in the same party and needed to apologize? Clinton backers constantly accuse the Obama campaign of negative tactics but can't substantiate the accusations.

I think that posters will keep criticizing Clinton as long as they disagree with her, and they should - that's their prerogative. I support Obama, but I'm sure not expecting an end to the many attempts to swiftboat him, even on DU. Not till the moderators make everyone do it, and until there's a concession or an official nominee.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

141. Got any proof of that ?

Or are you just talking out of your butt ?

[enid602]

150. Obama

Only what I've read here on DU and other websites where paid Obama staffers give multiple web page references to back up their elaborate theories that the Clintons were responsible for all sorts of horrible things. Obama's been great at reinventing the game with re: to the Dem primary. Shows initiative and smarts; nothing wrong with that. But Team Obama went too far in vilifying the Clintons. It's really kind of ironic that Obamatons credit the Clintons with destroying or rolling back so many programs, when Obama has NEVER even mentioned restoring affirmative action, welfare, etc.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

202. Any proof that posters here are paid ?

Or are you just making stuff up ?

[jonestonesusa]

207. If bloggers get paid, I want mine...

All these rumors about bloggers getting paid - why am I doing this for nothing?

[guruoo]

210. It was a good ol' fashioned rope-a-dope which Hillary's campaign handlers fell for

hook, line, and sinker.
By the tinme they realized what was happening she was
already down for the count.

[gaspee]

199. Exactly

But they can't see it, can they? Come November they will. Obama is unelectable.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PBS Poll-435]

11. Funny. Until this primary season

The only people that I heard calling Bill Clinton "Slick Willy" were the Republicans and other impotent and jealous fucks.

My how times have changed.

[truebrit71]

So I'm an "impotent and jealous fuck" because I choose NOT to bow down and accept Clinton mythology?

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.... :eyes:

[PBS Poll-435]

24. Read it again. Slower

I didn't call you anything.

I just said that until this year using that "term of endearment" was reserved for assholes.

[truebrit71]

54. I read your insult very slowly...you said that until primary season the only people...yada yada..

...the inference being that NOW (which is AFTER) that phrase also applies to people that use that phrase today...

[busymom]

Well, thank God that YOU said it and not me...

I wonder if is against forum policy to insult yourself like that.

[damntexdem]

96. I called him that even as I was voting for him in the 90s.

He was called that on DU, sometimes even affectionately. A few had illusions about him, going so far as to criticize him for acting like a moderate Republican rather than a Democrat. Most of us had no such illusions. He was a Democrat in name, and he did some good (including SCOTUS nominations); and we supported Slick Willy in 1992 and in 1996. Moreover, we were outraged by the attacks on him, particularly the ridiculous impeachment -- just as we criticized him for his Slick-Willying about the word "is" and his lawyerly parsing of "sex with that woman," rather than giving a forthright answer (or simply refusing to testify).

In short, we knew what he was but we embraced him as the best hope we had. We have much better now -- not only with Obama but with a number of other excellent candidates who didn't go far against HRC and Obama in the primaries. And we have a very-different environment, now. We now CAN do much better than HRC, and hopefully we will. If the Clintons will behave themselves, they can still sink into history with a bit of warmth attached to the memories of them; but they may instead continue to act in ways that leave any positive legacy whatever in tatters. If only Slick Willy could be a bit slicker, he could still be remembered with some fondness; and HRC could still be remembered as a fairly-adequate senator who made some major mistakes early on.

[guruoo]

204. ROTFLMAO

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:headbang:

[guruoo]

205. ROTFLAMO

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:headbang:

[newmajority]

4. The Kennedy Dynasty didn't bring us FAUX Noize and NAFTA

nuff said.

[Writer]

14. The Clinton's didn't bring "Fox News," either.

That's a myth that needs to die a quick death.

[newmajority]

36. Rupert Murdoch would never have been able to start FAUX Noize without the 96 Telecommunications Act.

Nor would AOL have been able to buy out Time Warner, which had already bought out CNN. Nor would massive corporate radio chains exist, which allowed the rapid spread of all hate radio right wing formats.

So yes, Bill Clinton is to blame for the shit that passes for "news" today.

[Writer]

77. Let me give you a quick primer on media regulation in the US.

The FCC DOES NOT - I repeat DOES NOT - regulate cable television. This is why this notion that the Telecom Act of '96 "brought Fox News" is entirely absurd.

[The Doctor.]

139. Interesting. I know the FCC is about the 'airwaves', but I thought the Telecom act dealt

with 'all' Telecom companies.

Do you have a link to some info there?

I'll dig for it, but if you have a better notion of where to find it, that'd be appreciated.

[knixphan]

194. Yep. 96 was a bad year for newsTV.

[NashVegas]

80. Actually, Kennedy Did Bring Us NAFTA

http://www.citizen.org/print_article.cfm?ID=15960

[newmajority]

85. Voting for it was certainly a mistake on Teddy's part

But that hardly makes it a product of the Kennedy dynasty.

[damntexdem]

104. Actually, the Clintons didn't bring Faux News other than being targets of it.

But NAFTA, welfare so-called reform, and a few other things are clearly Bill's fault; and the IWR is clearly HRC's major crime, and one for which she remains unrepentent.

But it's not fair to hang Faux News on them. Had Murdoch and Faux News not had Slick Willy as a target, they would have had to invent another.

[greguganus]

5. I don't remember the Kennedys as ever being bat-shit crazy. n/t

[busymom]

chappaquiddick?

And much more...but I'm not going to disparage him.

[AllentownJake]

34. Shame on you

While he's in the hospital recovering. SHAME

[busymom]

56. Oh. Please. I'm sorry for him. But that doesn't change the facts.

[AllentownJake]

68. You are no democrat than

[busymom]

75. Oh. Please.

Whatever.

[TornadoTN]

92. As long as everyone is all flowers and awe over Hillary, right?

She doesn't support me or my interests as a Democrat, as evidenced by her voting record on key issues over the past 8 years. Sure, we share some common ground but not nearly enough where it counts.

[Two Americas]

197. interesting inversion there

I am not "all flowers and in awe of Hillary" let alone demanding that others be. I don't even support the Clinton candidacy and never have. But I get attacked just as though I did anytime I express the slightest bit of criticism of Obama supporters or urge caution. The truth is that one may not speak off-script about the Obama phenomenon without being lumped in with everyone from racists to freepers and everything else evil and disgusting in the world and attacked as being disloyal, insane, or dishonest. That undeniable truth, on full display right here everyday, strongly suggests that the reality is exactly opposite to what you claim here - the truth is that unless one is "all flowers and awe" over Obama, one is liable to be treated as an enemy.

[damntexdem]

121. Oh, c'mon, the Kennedys WERE a bit too much like Slick Willy in that department.

That does not change the fact that he can't hold a candle to any of the brothers in terms of what they meant to the country. And I say that despite the fact that JFK had a much-less successful presidency than did Bill. I enthusiastically liked JFK, but he was fairly unpopular and didn't accomplish all that much -- most of the fond memories were born from his assassination. Bobby was not that great an attorney general and was killed before he could make what might have been major accomplishments as president. And Teddy managed to kill his chances to be prez on the basis of Chappaquiddick. That does not detract from his generally-positive legacy as senator, despite NAFTA and some other nasty votes.

[TBF]

71. You're not trying to disparage Teddy with that comment? While he is

recovering from surgery right now.

I replied honestly to your thread (downthread), but now I am just disgusted. I can't believe someone on this board would bring that up now of all times.

You are showing your true nature with that comment.

[movonne]

86. And how many years ago was that??? how dare you bring up that

story again..I know it is just because your mad about hillary but please don't go after Ted it is just plain wrong..

[stillcool]

114. Republican obsession...

with someone who has advocated for the people over the corporations for his entire life.

[busymom]

126. slick willy, Monica and her cigars, Bill's 'member'...

Those are republican 'obsessions' too. Why am I reading about them here?

[stillcool]

133. I'm responding to "your" words...

not what you claim to have read here. Trashing and bashing Ted Kennedy. Why am I reading that here?

[LowerManhattanite]

132. “But I'm not going to disparage him.”

No. Instead, you resort to the RW's cry whenever his name is mentioned. They don't even add a word. They just yell...


“CHAPPAQUIDDICK!”

I'm no Kennedy family fanboy, and yes, they are indeed as flawed as any bunch, but to throw that shit out there the same way the GOP does when the man is suffering from a brain tumor, and less than a day after radical surgery to at least prolong his life is JUST. FUCKING. SHAMEFUL.

Odious and shameful.

[knixphan]

195. seconded.

[RandomKoolzip]

179. Go away.

:thumbsdown:

[U4ikLefty]

209. Your post is disguting.

[LoZoccolo]

6. You know, you're right. The Clinton Dynasty didn't end today.

It ended gradually over the past five months as Hillary became progressively more putrid and stank-ass in the new lows she was willing to conquer.

Fuck Bill and Hillary.

[greguganus]

10. "stank-ass". LOL n/t

[JVS]

91. how true!

[MessiahRp]

218. LMAO

That was classic.

Rp

[olkaz]

7. The Clinton years weren't good for all of us....

For me and my area, it was a time that factories left, fast cash loans went up, crime went up, and more and more people just left.

The free-trading principles of the DLC and the Clintons have always invoked my ire.

[EFerrari]

8. There's nothing democratic about dynasties. n/t

[peoli]

9. heres some of the good

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2008/04/13/letter-to-hillary-about-monsanto-connections-020308/

[berni_mccoy]

13. You see it as everyone but Clinton supporters who have fallen off the bus

But what you don't realize is that you're on the wrong bus.

[JimGinPA]

15. The Way I See It...

It's a two way street.



:puffpiece:

[SeaLyons]

16. K&R

Good Post. I believe it to be over the heads of many die-hard Clinton bashers, but it is quite amazing the hate on this board for the "beloved" Clintons.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. Personally, I don't like gloating OR whining

I wish the posters here would use the bandwidth for subjects that are constructive. It doesn't help our cause to keep on with this Clinton/Obama-Obama/Clinton battle. It invites trolls and only makes people mad. Best thing for everyone to do is IGNORE flamebait posts, and contribute to threads that give real news, ask for information, or plan strategies for us to employ to defeat the GOP.

[damntexdem]

127. There is a lot of flaming.

But there is also some discussion of the legacy of various Dems, and much of that discussion is good. We do not need hero worship of either Kennedys nor, especially, Clintons; but the records of both "dynasties" are mixed.

[sandnsea]

18. The feminist doesn't like strong independent women

like Teresa and Michelle - but adores the woman who rode on her husband's coat tails.

I think that about says it all for me. The women who support Hillary have a different set of standards than I do.

[Poll_Blind]

21. Indeed! n/t

PB

[ampad]

47. Here, here

:applause:

[lumpy]

157. "The feminist doesn't like strong independent women" ?

You must believe a feminist is one who uses feminine wiles, plays the pretty little woman etc. Feminists believe women should be strong & independent.

[Beacool]

19. Let them vent.............

The Clintons are not going anywhere. He's still the president who led the greatest economic growth in many decades, she's still a sitting US senator and one of the most famous women in the world.

Bill and Hillary will be just fine.

We, I'm not so sure.........

[lumpy]

158. The Clintons will continue to be admired , not only by most

Americans but by most of the world in spite of the hateful small mminded sentiments expressed against them on GDP.

[Beacool]

160. You said it!!!! n/t

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wvbygod]

Lovely

Way to take the high road. Let me guess...you're one of those open minded Obama supporters
that believe in counting all the votes and want to end the nastiness and hate.

[Marrah_G]

22. Spot on Busymom !! This goes for te supporters of all candidates.

[busymom]

60. Sad that we can't discuss this as adults, isn't it?

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mtnsnake]

118. and you are one the most caustic and bitter imbeciles that ever typed a word here.

[lumpy]

161. I'll second that. Vile comes to mind.

v

[Eurobabe]

170. Gawd Binka I HATE DEFCON!!!

The freaks crawl out of the woodwork and off my ignore list.

[mod mom]

23. I felt very wary of Bill Clinton but I voted for him twice. As a Democrat I believe truth is more

important than legacy. I have posted information on Bill Clinton's policies many of which I feel have hurt this country (Telecom Act of '96, NAFTA, Most Favored Trade Status for China, his support of banking mergers to name a few) as well as some of his actions since leaving office (this comes to mind:

After Mining Deal, Financier Donated to Clinton

By JO BECKER and DON VAN NATTA Jr.
Published: January 31, 2008
Late on Sept. 6, 2005, a private plane carrying the Canadian mining financier Frank Giustra touched down in Almaty, a ruggedly picturesque city in southeast Kazakhstan. Several hundred miles to the west a fortune awaited: highly coveted deposits of uranium that could fuel nuclear reactors around the world. And Mr. Giustra was in hot pursuit of an exclusive deal to tap them.

Unlike more established competitors, Mr. Giustra was a newcomer to uranium mining in Kazakhstan, a former Soviet republic. But what his fledgling company lacked in experience, it made up for in connections. Accompanying Mr. Giustra on his luxuriously appointed MD-87 jet that day was a former president of the United States, Bill Clinton.

-snip


"Kazakhstan’s president, Nursultan A. Nazarbayev, whose 19-year stranglehold on the country has all but quashed political dissent."

"Mr. Nazarbayev walked away from the table with a propaganda coup, after Mr. Clinton expressed enthusiastic support for the Kazakh leader’s bid to head an international organization that monitors elections and supports democracy."

-snip

Just months after the Kazakh pact was finalized, Mr. Clinton’s charitable foundation received its own windfall: a $31.3 million donation from Mr. Giustra that had remained a secret until he acknowledged it last month. The gift, combined with Mr. Giustra’s more recent and public pledge to give the William J. Clinton Foundation an additional $100 million, secured Mr. Giustra a place in Mr. Clinton’s inner circle, an exclusive club of wealthy entrepreneurs in which friendship with the former president has its privileges.

LINK:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31donor.html

I feel it is more important to hold our leaders accountable for their actions rather than hero worship like we saw w Bush in the past.

Sorry if this bothers you, but accountability should stand for all regardless of party. imho

[BlooInBloo]

26. It's not the Whiny Ass Titty Baby Underground, either.

EDIT: Although listening to all of the Clinton supporters, I see how one could get confused about that.

[JVS]

27. Think of the Clintons as meat that has grown rancid and inedible.

Everyone once liked them, but their properties have changed for the worse.

[CountAllVotes]

28. How democrats can tear down the Clintons is a mystery to me.

I guess you have not been paying attention to all of Slick Willy's "tricks". Alas, he is the puppeteer who pulls the strings of Slick Hilly. :puke:

:dem:

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Writer]

32. That's not fair.

This is just a differing opinion. Note that she's defending the DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

[lumpy]

166. The Clinton hating jackasses are the kind that would bite the

hand that feeds them. If Obama proves to be a flubup then they will be savagely snipping at his loins also.

[busymom]

30. Thank you. Your responses only

prove to me how right I am.

Keep the flames burning...it just makes you look foolish.

[EFerrari]

33. So how are dynasties democratic?

[busymom]

44. So you support the end to the Kennedy and Kerry Dynasties?

Awesome. Then we are in agreement. I don't think dynasties are democratic either and it is one of the reasons that I was a little shy about initially supporting HRC. I don't think Ted Kennedy's wife should finish out his term though either (as is being floated.). I think Kerry should be challenged. New blood is good for democracy.

[EFerrari]

90. Actually, you called this board undemocratic because you claimed

we don't support dynasties. Do you know withdraw that assertion?

You support Hillary but you want Kerry out of office? She's a special case, then?

Forty years ago on Friday, we lost Bobby Kennedy and Senator Kennedy is just out of surgery. Posts like yours remind me how degraded our politics have become and how much we lost that day.

[Mass]

95. Kerry dynasties? Does not even make sense.

BTW, Kerry will be challenged, but guess what, he will be reelected without problem. As for Reggie Kennedy, if she wants to replace her husband, she will have to be elected (you do not care about some democracy, do you, even if it does not go where you want).

BTW, why did you quote 2 strong Obama supporters rather than the many, many other people who have been there forever (like Franks, Markey, ... just to speak about my state, or Byrd, Harkin, ...).

[smoogatz]

35. Admit it—the Clintons are a mixed bag.

Bill ran as a populist but ruled as a center-right corporatist conservative, somewhere to the right of Nixon on social issues. That said, he managed the economy and the budget wonderfully well, kept us out of major conflicts, and managed to prevent any major acts of foreign terrorism on U.S. soil. BUT, his inability to keep his pecker in his pants humiliated the party and led directly to the selection of Dumya. Hillary's smart and tough, yes, but she fucked up healthcare reform big-time, ran a presidential campaign based on nothing but a sense of entitlement, and is every bit as corporatist center-right as Bill. She's also pretty much endorsed McCain in any race for the presidency that doesn't include her, and race-baited her way through the primaries in Appalachia, all the while accusing Obama of "playing the race card." Both the Clintons have behaved pretty despicably through the primaries, and frankly I (and apparently a number of other DUers) have had about enough of them. I wish them well, and I think Hillary's a perfectly able senator when she's not voting to invade countries that pose no threat to us, but I'm very, very glad they're not going to be in the political spotlight for the next four years. Enough, please.

[jonestonesusa]

211. Amen...

Some people call it Clinton bashing, but it's political analysis based on the presidential record and campaign strategies of both Clintons.

I really want to know from Clinton supporters what, if anything, do they object to in this analysis. There's been a lot of shutting down of conversation on this board rather than simply talk about the candidate's merits and negative points.

[cboy4]

37. Well, actually bashing Democrats should be allowed

as long as it's in the form of constructive criticism.

Such as Bill Richardson being a world class back-stabber and White House job mooch.

[last1standing]

38. "...but regardless of who the nominee is now, Clinton or Obama...I am sitting this one out."

Does that ring a bell for you? If not, here's more:

busymom (721 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Apr-05-08 05:51 PM
Original message
I have decided not to vote in November....

Clearly, I can't vote for McCain...and I understand that my failure to vote for a democrat takes...a vote away...but regardless of who the nominee is now, Clinton or Obama...I am sitting this one out.

It isn't just GD: P that has become a cesspool of nastiness. I have yet to actually meet an Obama supporter who doesn't rip on Hillary Clinton in really nasty ways within minutes of declaring their obamaness. My affection for Hillary has also slowly diminished....sadly...because of all of the attacks that I have heard. I don't see her getting the nomination anyway.

I absolutely will not pull the lever now for Obama...so....all of the Obama supporters that have crossed my path both here and in real life who have been so nasty about Clinton only have themselves to blame when McLame wins it in November.

Oh...and I fully expect to get flamed. That's ok too...it will just prove my point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5398089&mesg_id=5398089

Your hypocrisy is really limitless. :mad:

[busymom]

48. No. I was just venting. I have come around.

If you follow more of my posts instead of acting like Faux news and picking and choosing, you'll see that I have come to the middle. You would also realize that later I posted saying that I was wrong...and would vote for the dem...and was flamed for that too.

[last1standing]

61. So you're the only one allowed to "vent"?

This "blood sport" that you're lambasting is a two sided fight and you've been just as guilty as anyone.

I'd suggest that you think on that a bit before trying to insult and harangue anyone else.

[busymom]

65. re-read my posts

Where did I make personally disparaging remarks about Obama...resort to namecalling, finger-pointing, blame Obama for Clinton's loss, or make personal attacks against him. Nowhere. There is a big difference between saying what I did and coming out in rage the way the people here have against Clinton.

[last1standing]

76. I don't remember you saying much about those who have bashed Obama.

And you certainly don't mind insulting other posters. That's called hypocrisy.

Like I asked previously, are you the only one allowed to vent?

[busymom]

113. Absotuley, I have...and when there were ludicrous rumors

about him with that wack job that made some tabloid history (I refuse to name him) I said that it was completely unacceptable to discuss.

[last1standing]

116. You go ahead and link all these times you've called out rabid Hillary supporters.

And I'll link all the times you've posted vicious insults and other bullshit about Obama supporters then we'll compare the two.

Sound good to you?

[busymom]

122. Whatever.

I've not posted anything rabid about Obama. The worst thing I ever did was post a "I could never vote for someone who wears tie like that" thing as a parody in response to the "I could never vote for someone who wears those pantsuits" thread. In that thread, I also made a point of stating that it was a pardoy aimed to show the ridiculousness of the low level of insults being tossed about.

I have not made a secret out of my support for HRC and my desire to see her win....but...I have not rabidly attacked Obama.

Unlike you, I don't have endless hours of time to search through old posts and link to them.

[last1standing]

128. Gee! I seem to remember saying "Obama SUPPORTERS".

Why are you changing the scope of this? Could it be that you know how many disgusting, hateful posts you've made and want to change the subject?

Whatever, indeed. :eyes:

[damntexdem]

135. Hey, just hold to the voting for the Dem, no matter who.

And I will, too.

Amid the flames, we can still hold our noses and vote -- or perhaps smell the roses as we do.

[book_worm]

40. how sad to see some desperate Clinton supporters advocating Obama losing in November

so that Hill can run in 2012.

[busymom]

50. Who is doing that?

I just said that I will vote for the dem ticket.

[Buzz Clik]

41. The Daily Scolding -- Part II.

Thanks for this! What would I do without being chastised many times daily by those supporting the ... loser.

[Ichingcarpenter]

49. Busy, Busy

[BlueJac]

42. Thanks for telling us who you don't like....very interesting words...

NAFTA could give you a clue about the Clintons and their standing with the American people. Other than that, GOBAMA 08!

[TwilightGardener]

43. I don't understand anyone not liking Teresa Kerry or Michelle Obama.

They are good women.

[busymom]

55. Of course they are good women. I never said that htey aren't...

I am just not crazy about them. But then again, I don't understand anyone not liking HRC. Sure, don't vote for her...support Obama...but hating her like that? Wow.

[damntexdem]

137. She has earned the hate. But I could, and would, still vote for her.

And that, in the end, is the important thing.

[Two Americas]

201. that is always the justification

Haters always think that the objects of their hatred deserve it, or earned it. "She asked for it" is always the justification for every tyrant, bully and abuser. Beyond that, that thinking - "they had it coming" - is the root cause of war and oppression throughout history. Saying that your hatred is OK because you can justify it, or because it is the fault of the object of your hatred, is to descend into a very dark place of moral depravity.

"Don't blame me for hating them, just look at how they are!"

[stellanoir]

45. You may not be familiar with the roots of OBSW but you are right. OBSW is not a battle cry.

It's a victory chant and was one of the funniest moments I've ever experienced online.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2589421

See posts # 55, 62, #, 74, 75, 83, 93, 102, 132, 69, 118, 53, 57, 58, 63, 64, 65, 68, 71, 127, & 56. They all document the expression's somewhat riotous evolution.

Maybe consider lightening up a bit. We all basically want the same things. Representative (not corporate) leadership would truly be a great start.

Peace

[cbayer]

93. That was great to read again! Very funny! OMC, you gotta love him.

But I also noticed that throughout the whole thread, although people disagreed, there was civility. People used their words carefully to make their points, and sometimes their points were very sharp. Things have sure deteriorated since them. I am hopeful that we will move back towards that place.

[stellanoir]

140. Well OMC and helderheid & I shared a lovely moment of bonding there and then.

I put a boatload of energy into that thread.

Things always wax and wane. I"m not sure the deterioration you understandably perceive given the digressed tenor of the past several months, is at all permanent.

Someone told me relatively recently that the singular catch phrase that applies to ALL circumstances is "This too shall pass."

Glad you enjoyed revisiting that thread. It was a total blast. And you may have noticed that one of the two detractors replied up thread long after it had garnered overwhelmingly positive response.

That was intriguing.

[helderheid]

97. Thanks, Stella!

Busymom, I'm sorry. I know you and everyone who supports Sen. Clinton must be hurting right now. :hug:

[damntexdem]

46. Democratic Aboveground.

The difference between the Clinton Dynasty and the Kennedy Dynasty is that the latter has been positive for the country and for the Party. Not so the former. Hillary is still senator from NY. She could still do good. But she will have a lot to live down; and I certainly hope that the dynasty talk will end.

[crankychatter]

51. My issues with Clinton are on policy and character as are YOUR issues with Obama

Starting there, we have something in common.

I read your post.

I don't think it's perfectly balanced or wholly accurate...

HOWEVER, it has plenty of merit.

As an Obama supporter I just scoot over the more inflammatory posts by fellow Obama supporters. It doesn't offend me as much as it does you, but my obliviousness doesn't make them inoffensive.

I don't make generalizations about ALL Clinton supporters either.

Such things are juvenile...

an occasional self indulgence, or blowing off a little steam is understandable... and to my mind... if it has some humor that is not too cruel...

well, I'm tolerant... I've cracked some jokes about Obama and typed some criticisms... not just Clinton. If I think it's funny, it's coming out of my mouth. Sorry.

I got put on ignore by an Obama supporter the other day for a post, I intended to be an effort at peace.

I figure I'm in good company with lots of folks, that just happen to disagree with me.

[Political Heretic]

52. I am not ashamed in any way to rejoice at the end of Clinton's control of the Democratic Party.

That's because I don't agree with the Clinton's political tactics or political philosophy. I believe they have been bad for the Democratic party, part of the reason why the Democratic party lost governorships, lost congress and has remained historically weak and I believe its time for new leadership and new people.

We may disagree. That's fine.

But it IS PERFECTLY OKAY to voice HEALTHY CRITICISM of OUR party when we feel like its leadership has taken it in the wrong direction.

[jgraz]

53. Perhaps you would prefer...

InadequateBlackMaleUnderground? :shrug:

[crankychatter]

57. On reflection, online, I prefer Anarchy tempered by Totalitarianism to Democracy

maybe it's that Military time...

I think if DU were Democratic it would really suck.

[TBF]

62. Busymom, I have never been a big fan of the Clintons - they're a little

too moderate for me. But I did vote for Bill twice and supported him.

The thing is, though, I feel that Hillary had to stand on her own two feet in this process, and not just get votes because she's the wife of a popular ex-president. On her own she alienated me. She televised an ad that said she and John McCain were more qualified to run the country than Obama. She told us that she cared about "hard-working white Americans" (her own words). Finally, in the coup de gras she explained that she staying in the race because you never know - candidates have been assassinated in June before.

So, before you get on your high horse to lecture please take a look at what the woman said and did with an objective voice, rather than filtering it through the lens of loyalty to her husband.

[papapi]

63. I am on board. It seems to me that the Clintons are the ones having a problem getting on board.

So give it a rest. Party pooper.

[mtnsnake]

64. One of the best posts EVER

Thank you!!!

[busymom]

72. Thank YOU.

We are all going to need to come together and work together....which means the Clinton people have to move towards the Obama people and vice versa. It has to start now. I supported Clinton to the end, and now I'm willing to walk across the line and meet the Obama folks 1/2 way...but they have to meet me 1/2 way too. ;)

[jgraz]

84. And, trust me, mtnsnake is the BEST judge of post quality on this board

If you're lucky, he'll pronounce you Goddess of Something or Other.

[mtnsnake]

103. dam right

We finally agree on something :evilgrin:

[movonne]

112. Thank you and I'm certainly willing to go 1/2 way...and I think you

are a reasonable hillary supporter...

[Independent-Voter]

67. She acts like a petulant, vile, bitter child, and you wonder why people call her on it?

[MadBadger]

70. deleted message

whatever I were to say would result in this outcome probably.

[endarkenment]

74. I didn't like Kerry much but I worked my ass off for him.

Primaries have winners and losers. Make lemonade.

[busymom]

101. me too.

[billyoc]

79. You might be mistaking far-reaching hatred for the Clintons and all they've done

with personal hatred. It's an easy mistake to make.

[cbayer]

82. Sometimes it does indeed feel very undemocratic.

Majority rule has clearly been the case here, but minority rights have not always been protected. I have a lot of respect for members like yourself who have stayed around, been reasonable and civil and continued to support Clinton. Most have been driven off. It does not always feel safe to speak your mind here and about 85% of the posters just say the same things over and over and over again.

I made a promise yesterday to stay off the negative threads and support the positive threads. When you feed these people's hate, it grows. Let's starve them.

[TheDonkey]

83. DING DONG! DING DONG!

The bells ring with the sound of freedom. The end of the Clinton/DLC/Triangulation/Monica Lewinsky era is dead.

[NYC_SKP]

87. "Ooga, Booga, Wooga"??? WTF? Are you serious? IBTL

IBTL

[Binka]

88. Before I Put You On Ignore Your Comment About Teddy Was DISGUSTING

It is painfully obvious you are clueless. Pity your children.

[mtnsnake]

109. Oh I'm sure that will just CRUSH anyone, knowing that you have put them on ignore (snicker)

Pity your children.

What a ROTTEN thing for you to say to another poster, but it doesn't suprise me, considering the source. :thumbsdown:

[busymom]

131. Ridiculous, isn't it?

Where have I ever said ANYTHING on these forums about pitying the children of posters that I disagree with? That is the difference that I'm trying to point out here.

It is one thing to not agree with someone...a politician or a forum poster. It is completely another to make comments like that. Again...the undemocratic underground.

[mtnsnake]

138. Yup you nailed it

Again...the undemocratic underground

aka Clinton Haters Underground aka Bizarro World

[Two Americas]

200. self-righteousness

By the way, thanks busymom for your comments and the opportunity for expressing my thoughts.

There is a self-righteousness, a religious zeal among the most dominant Obama supporters, that allows them to justify in their own minds almost any sort of maliciousness and hostility. Ironically, they would not have this opportunity were it not for the fact that the people they are trying to destroy are loyal Democrats and leftists. Otherwise, we would not put up with the abuse for one minute. That is the problem with the behavior of too many Obama supporters. Loyalty tests will not work on the general public, and they will not put up with the for-us-or-against-us and "all of the rest of you are racists and might as well vote for McCain" abuse. Yet those who would not even be bothering to pay any attention whatsoever to the Obama supporters except for their intense loyalty and their commitment to the success of the party are being accused of disloyalty in the most scathing and abusive terms.

[K Gardner]

89. "Bashing Dems should not be allowed..".. stunning hypocrisy.

[specimenfred1984]

98. It's become "SmearUnderground", media-brainwashed propaganda repeaters

just parroting the latest smear. The saddest thing of all is most people don't even have a clue that they are complete tools.

[Barack_America]

99. Hey, you're back!

Where ya been lurking the past month or so?

[busymom]

105. busy with the last month of school for the kids...

They had a lot going on at the end of the year. Now that it's summer, things are a little easier and I have a bit more time!

[stillcool]

100. Ted Kennedy & John Kerry..

trashing and bashing two Democrats with the most liberal voting records in the Senate. Isn't that typical? And you talk about the 'good' the Clinton's have done. You are correct in one thing. Until this primary season I had no idea the Clinton's would do anything to grab power, including dissing the Democratic Party.

[Citizen_Penn]

102. You may be a mom

but you are not MY mom.

How you can preach to anyone is a mystery to me.

Not much interested in your sermon, lady.

[busymom]

107. LOL

[babylonsister]

108. This whole post is just bullshit, especially coming from you. And

how you found the nerve to smear Sen. Kennedy, especially now, gets no respect from me. You might consider yourself a Democrat, but I don't. You sound a lot more like Hannity. Good riddance to you.

[Straight Shooter]

110. Everything that goes around, comes around.

If anyone trashmouths Obama around me, I will remain silent. I owe him no allegiance. I'm not "devoted" to Hillary Clinton, but the abuse heaped on her, right here on a "Democratic" forum, is something I will never forget.

[Vattel]

117. great post n/t

[Shakespeare]

119. Oh. It's you again.

The Clintons are not perfect, and have disillusioned a LOT of people this election cycle.

The closest thing I can compare it to is this: familial discord. I (we, democrats) can say bad things about my family, but outsiders (republicans) better not say a damn word.

[indio55555]

123. Remember last summer...

when Obama was a nobody? People supported Obama on here and what did the Clinton supporters do? Exactly! Look in the mirror first.

[dawgman]

125. I think you are confusing the issue.

The Clintons are the face of the DLC. The DLC rose to power as the corporate wing of the Democratic Party with the rise of Bill and Hillary. The DLC lost us the congress in 1994 and the presidency in both 2000 and 2004. Congress was won back not by the DLC but by a grassroots effort from the DNC itself. With the loss of Hillary to Barack Obama this primary season, many here are celebrating a return to a national, grassroots, populist movement within the party that may signify the demise of the corporatism that was the DLC.

It is nothing personal against the Clintons. It has more to do with the DLC and corporatism than the Clintons themselves. The Clintons alligned themselves with this wing of the party. Any backlash from this alliance is their own doing.

Don't confuse the current populist anti-corporate political climate with anti-Clintonism.

Edited for a boneheaded spelling error.

[WeDidIt]

129. Every Obama supporter would have supported Hillary

had she won.

Guaranteed.

You ahve some disruptors on both sides who would in actuality support neither.

[cstanleytech]

165. Well, yeah there were people on both sides who were causing

problems but the OP is right mostly, there was a very republican type slant to the attacks on Hillary, not saying I will not vote Obama because most likely I will and I know I sure as hell wont vote for McCain but it makes me question now if the democrats are ready to have control of the whitehouse.
I hope they are though as we need someone good in the office to get us out of the mess we are in with Iraq, healthcare, oil prices and the economy in general and I know McCain is not it.

[ProSense]

130. "Bashing democrats should not be allowed" BS! Criticizing Democrats is democratic.

Hillary deserves all the criticism she gets.

It's Teresa, not Theresa.

[busymom]

136. There is a difference between criticizing and bashing....

And at DU it is all about BASHING.

Anytime I post anything here I get the "oooh, busy mom isn't busy enough," or "I pity your chilren" or whatever. Seriously...disagree with me, disagree with HRC....critize, point out policy weaknesses, but when people begin making personal attacks they lose all credibility.

Teresa...of course. Typing on the fly here.

[Lerkfish]

134. I guess I really don't understand why anyone would dislike Michele.

:shrug:

oh, I know all the trumped up reasons, but those are just rationalizations. I don't really get the dislike that prompted the trumped up reasons in the first place.

Do they not like strong, intelligent women?

[johnlal]

146. Bashing democrats?

For many of us, this election wasn't about just beating the Republicans. It was also about beating the DLC. Those Clinton supporters who argue that all Democrats are the same are either not informed or are dishonest. To many of us, this was a fight for the soul of the party. That's why it may have been vicious at times. Just think about this, what if Joe Lieberman had run for the Democratic nomination, and we had to look forward to a General Election between Lieberman and McCain. Wouldn't you feel strongly about defeating Lieberman? It's the same for us and Senator Clinton.

[Yukari Yakumo]

147. And so the die-hard pro-HRC flameout begins... {nt}

uguu

[lumberjack_jeff]

148. And 11% of DU'ers

Would write-in "Bill Clinton" as the worst Democratic president ever.

Boneheads.

[LSK]

149. delete

[zulchzulu]

154. Why didn't you like Teresa Heinz Kerry? Why don't you like Michelle Obama?

State succinctly why on those questions...

[Johnny Shear]

156. The wounds will heal!

Senator Obama will be elected and the Clintons will go back to supporting the Democratic Party in any way they can.

:)

[beachmom]

159. You're making disparaging remarks about Teresa now. Boy, you're a jerk.

[Swamp Rat]

162. "Bashing democrats should not be allowed"

Ooga, Booga, Wooga!!!

[DangerDave921]

163. It will end soon

I think a lot of the bashers are secret RW'ers who can spew their hate because of the primary season. It makes for good cover. Once the nominee is locked up, I would expect this hatred to go away soon. After all, if the primaries are done and some DU'ers are still bashing Dems, then it seems pretty clear what the real agenda is.

[depakid]

164. "How democrats can tear down the Clintons is a mystery to me."

Simple:

Throughout the 8 years that they were in the Whitehouse, they took pains to legitimize, enable and even PROMOTE far right and corporatist policies on everything from the financial industry to healthcare and the environment.

They were essentially Rockefeller Republicans- so it shouldn't be any surprise that a LOT of us who believe in traditional Democratic values still harbor some animosity.

[frickaline]

171. "Bashing democrats should not be allowed ... Even if you don't like them..

I agree with this sentiment. I also think Hillary was demonized here and as a Democrat I don't think that was just.

While I may disagree with her on certain votes or things she has said, she was not deserving of what she received at the hands of her own party. May we someday find the grace to respectfully disagree.

[Orsino]

181. I am no fan of political dynasties.

I prefer meritocracy, when I can get it. Despite Senator Clinton's good points, I really, really want a presidential ballot without a Bush or Clinton on it. It's been thirty-two years, for crying out loud.

[Spider Jerusalem]

182. Name one positive, lasting accomplishment of Bill Clinton's administration.

Name one progressive principle he didn't compromise. Tell me why, after his moves to the right on trade, on the 'war on drugs', on gay civil rights, on welfare 'reform', on a host of issues, he is supposed to be a Democratic exemplar. This is a man who made a point of flying back to his home state in the midst of his first Presidential campaign to execute a man with brain damage, to show how tough on crime he was. This is a man who ran ads on fundamentalist Christian radio touting his support of DOMA. And his wife? His wife is not much better. Her poor management, ego and inability to compromise sunk healthcare reform in the early '90's, and took it off the table for nearly two decades; she voted for the most misguided bit of American foreign policy since Vietnam; she's voted in favour of bills to ban flag-burning, and in favour of censorship. Explain to me what's so fucking great about the Clintons, exactly? What did Bill Clinton actually DO apart from getting elected twice (while helping the Democratic party lose governorships and Congress along the way)?

[TexasObserver]

183. Hillary was a mediocre candidate who lacked the skills and smarts to win.

She's not very bright and has gotten far on her limited thinking skills. She's Mrs. Bill Clinton, and that's still the only reason anyone knows who she is.

[Usrename]

185. Shouldn't the Clintons be held responsible for their own behavior?

I'm not talking about the made-up stories, I'm wondering about the words that came out of their own mouths.

What if some other Democratic leader said similar stuff about the presumptive nominee of the party? Would it be OK?

[dcindian]

188. You have to listen to a song by the white stripes........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGxVHaBFCqs


I guess you have to have a problem
If you want to invent a contraption
First you cause a train wreck
Then you put me in traction

Well, first came an action
And then a reaction
But you can't switch around
For your own satisfaction
Well, you put my house down, then got mad
At my reaction

Well, in every complicated situation
You're the human relation
Makin' sense of it all
Take a whole lot a concentration

Well, you can blame my baby
For her pregnant ma
And if there's one of these
On the order for laws
It's that you just can't take the effect
And make it the cause

Well, you can't take the effect
And make it the cause
I didn't rob a bank
Because you made up a law
When you people robbin' Peter
Don't you blame Paul
Can't take the effect
And make it the cause

I ain't the reason that you gave me no reason to return your call
You built a house of cards and got shocked when you saw them fall
Well are you sayin' I'm innocent?
In fact the reverse
But if you're headin' to the grave
You don't blame the hearse
You're like a little girl yellin' at her brother
'Cause you lost his ball

Well you keep blamin' me for what you did
And that ain't all
The way you clean up a wreck
Is enough to get one pause
You seem to forget
Just how this song started
I'm reactin' to you because you left me broken-hearted
See, you just can't take the effect
And make it the cause

Can't take the effect
And make it the cause
I didn't rob a bank
Because you made up a law
Blame people robbin' Peter
Don't you blame Paul
Can't take the effect
And make it the cause

[redqueen]

189. Read up on Wellstone, why people like him, and his thoughts on the DLC.

Then you might have a clue or three.

[depakid]

220. But Wellstone was just a gadfly...

[IsItJustMe]

198. You must of been out to lunch when Hillary made her "hard working white people" or "McCain

experienced and Obama not" comments. With Dems like this, honestly, who the hell needs enemies. She said these things, not the press.

[JI7]

206. John Kerry isn't part of any fucking dynasty

he was already a Senator when he married Teresa. he has/had no relation to Senator Heinz before that.

Teresa herself has not ran for any office.

[AlCzervik]

212. is it national Piss moan and groan about Du week?

[SeattleGirl]

214. Perhaps because some of us don't like with Hilary Clinton did during

the campaign.

Sometimes I felt that we were doing battle with Bushco.

I'm sure you don't see it that way, but some of us did.

[tabasco]

215. I can bash Hillary and Holy Joe all I want.

Start your own message board if you don't like this one.

The so-called Clinton dynasty turned the Democratic party into a weak and ineffective shadow of the republican party.

Fuck that shit.

[whopis01]

217. There is no room for a dynasty within a democracy. n/t

[OzarkDem]

219. There really is no excuse for it.

Here's hoping the mods are better able to ferret out the GOP disruptors now that the primary race
is winding down.


On edit: Perhaps Obama's campaign will also start sending his staffers to post at Republican forums instead of Democratic ones. Here's hoping anyway. Past experience has shown me that people who relish waging nasty primary political battles at their fellow Dems are not as enthusiastic when it comes to attacking candidates in the other party. Let's hope that's not the case with Obama.