Question: Why is winning not enough? Why is Obama getting the Nomination not enough?

[Marrah_G]

Please explain why most of GD-P is taken up by posts obsessed with the destruction of Senator Clinton.

I am really trying to understand this. I am really trying to get on the O-Train. But all I see is a party on the train that consists mostly of stomping on the body of a Democratic Senator.

She is down, you all won, why is this not enough?

[gateley]

1. It's more than enough. We're moving on. nt

[JimGinPA]

2. Because Your Girl Chose To Piss In The Punch Bowl

[cap]

The end of the first serious woman candidate for president deserves

some major marker for an ending.

[EFerrari]

22. Yes, but she did lose. First things first.

[greguganus]

82. She has screwed it up for any woman in the future seeking the nomination. n/t

[Orangepeel]

103. Oh, that's ridiculous! n/t

[EFerrari]

109. It's hard to tell if she's made it any easier at this point, that's for sure. n/t

[Zuiderelle]

132. I suppose that Bush has screwed up any chance for any MAN then too eh?

What a fucking idiotic thing for you to say.

[Matariki]

150. There should be a prize for stupidest post of the day

[11 Bravo]

153. #82 just retired the trophy.

[Zhade]

175. Actually, any female candidate who DOESN'T turn out to be a proven unrepentant liar will do fine.

NT!

[cap]

192. it doesn't matter what you think of Hillary's character... she was the first woman

to make it this far.

Many women want to celebrate this fact. Let them.

[JimGinPA]

23. I Didn't Vote For Obama Because He Is Black...

Had he lost he wouldn't have required a pity party.

[Chulanowa]

30. Well, as soon as she actually ends the campaign...

And as soon as she grabs her supporters by the nose and tells them to not vote for McCain and stand by the Democratic nominee...
Unfortunately I'm afraid neither of these events will come to pass.

[Vattel]

77. throughout the campaign

she has told her supporters that the differences between her and Obama are minor compared to the differences between her and McCain. Her and Bill (unlike Michelle) have repeatedly said that Obama would be a far better choice than McCain. Where have you been? You've been spending too much time in the DU funhouse (GDP).

[LisaM]

112. I know. You are right.

This fiction that Hillary "endorses" McCain, that she'll run with him, that she's not a Democrat - SHE - who has raised so many millions and worked so tirelessly for other candidates - is just that, a fiction.

I can't believe there are people here who fall for that kind of nonsense. It's the same bunch who think that she is not a Democrat, that she must be run out of the party, that she is a traitor, etc., etc., all because, apparently, she chose to run for office.

[Zhade]

177. There's video of her endorsing McLame over Obama. You're wrong.

You probably still think there were snipers at Tuzla!

[MoonRiver]

108. Have you ever heard of the Self-Fulfilling Prophesy?

No? Well, you better learn, FAST.

[Chulanowa]

151. Go ahead

Vote for four more years.
Vote for the overturning of Roe vs. Wade.
Vote for a war against Iran, Syria, and Luxembourg.
Vote for the worst economic policy since Herbert Hoover
Vote for the continued degradation of our environment

Vote for John McCain, and vote proudly and loudly, announcing to the world, "I happily rape my nation and everyone living in it, because some guy on the internet thinks some Hillary supporters are jackasses!"

Dare ya.

[thetaoofterri]

144. Your assumption that Clinton supporters need to be led

around by the nose and are unable to actually think for themselves is offensive, to say the least.

[Chulanowa]

149. I didn't say that

I'm very certain they can think for themselves. I just think Senator Clinton should drag a number of them, kicking and screaming if need be, towards better, more useful thoughts, such as "I will not vote for McCain, because I don't want to see a woman-abusing senile warmonger fucksmear in the white house" or perhaps "Possession of a penis is not a good reason to take a stand against the Democratic party nominee" or even, heavens to betsy, dare I dream, "I, too, will support the Democratic nominee for president even though he wasn't my first choice in the primaries"

What's offensive is that there are enough Clinton supporters slobbering over McCain to make this a genuine concern, don't you think?

[thetaoofterri]

158. The implication was there...

Leaders lead by principle and example not by bullying and demeaning. It seems to me that if Obama wants to be the leader of our nation and he needs the support of those people who supported Hillary, he needs to take the leadership role and earn their support. If he can't do that, he's not the leader he thinks he is.

For you to characterize Clinton supporters as "slobbering" only serves to piss them off further and divide the party more than it already is.

[Chulanowa]

159. There are Clinton supporters who are slobbering over McCain

I never said all of them, or even most. But if you want to keep putting words in my mouth, hey go right ahead.

Obama's already earned his place. He did this by winning elections, and thus the nomination. If that's not enough for some people, then fuck them, one and all. The last thing our party needs is a bunch of incompetent extortionists trying to get our nominee to bow to their demands under the "promise" of maybe thinking about voting for him.

Thankfully it would seem the main body of Clinton supporters are already getting behind him.

[thetaoofterri]

161. Considering his message of "Unity,"

Obama might just disagree with your "fuck them, one and all," "incompetent extortionists" perspective.

[Chulanowa]

166. No doubt he would

However, I'm not Obama, am I?

For most Hillary supporters, the fact that Obama is the democratic nominee for president is good enough at this point. Most others will go ahead after Hillary endorses him.

However, there are those, like you mentioned, who believe that Obama will have to do something extra special to "Earn" their votes. What that something is is of course left unsaid (Good heavens, he might actually do it, if they said what it is!) Basically, htey feel Obama "owes" them for defeating Clinton in the primaries.

Like many Obama supporters, he wasn't my first choice. Or my second. I was for Kucinich, then Edwards. But I'm not going to bang the walls and demand that Obama "prove himself to me" and "Earn" my vote, as if I were owed something special from the man. I'm not. The voters have spoken, Obama's the guy they want our party to run, and I'll go with it. I'd be going with Hillary just the same, and be saying what I'm saying now to Obama supporters if the roles were reversed.

Saying "if Obama doesn't give ME what I want, I'm voting McCain!" absolutely is extortion. Since it's bound to not work, it's incompetent extortion. And the people who try to screw up the party I belong to and vote with in such a manner can all go get fucked.

[thetaoofterri]

173. Shaking my head at the sheer arrogance and ignorance...

Feel free to wallow in it all by yourself.

Buh Bye.

[Zhade]

178. You must be talking to your mirror.

NT!

[Straight Shooter]

162. I distinctly remember Gandhi saying, "Then f*ck them, one and all."

Oh. Wait. No, he didn't.

[Chulanowa]

167. He did, actually, after his favorite football team lost back in '17

According to eyewitnesses, he ate his ticket stub and meditated for seventy-onehours straight after that, muttering about "miserable Scots referees" the entire time.

He just didn't write it down, you see...

[Straight Shooter]

172. In that scenario, I can see him doing that.

:D

[cliffordu]

84. Thanks. You just put me off the punch.

[cap]

3. I don't understand it at all either

Most of the board says that they can win without Hillary or the people who voted for her. :)

So why do you need her endorsement?

[shadowknows69]

14. because it's how it's done

It's called tradition and party unity.

[cap]

160. but traditionally, everyone was allowed to keep their delgates till the end

and everyone hooted and hollered for their candidate until the convention... No matter how close or not... Go back and look at the tapes of the conventions. Not until relatively recently did everyone rally around the candidate.

I have been with Obama since the beginning but I want to give Hillary her due. Let her and her supporters hoot and holler all they want. I'm glad for them. I happier Obama won but I am glad Hillary placed well.

[SeaLyons]

4. K&R

They don't consider kicking someone that's already down a foul.

[blm]

16. Well...What Would Hillary Do? What Has Hillary Done?

Let her guide your conscience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[LSK]

139. so she was siding with the GOP even way back then

[Windy]

33. she kicked her legacy herself. Its her own actions that have many including party elders up in arms

It is generally believed by some, including Rangle and Clyburn, that she treated Obama disrespectfully. After the nomination was won, Terry MacCulliffe still found it necessary to annouce her as the next president of the US before her speech on Tuesday..and that's just the beginning of the fiasco that she and her campaign created.

She did not have to concede on Tuesday, but a little respect would have been welcome instead of intimating throughout her speech that she was still the strongest candidate to win in the fall despite the primary results.

I'm sorry if you don't understand how what was done could rub people the wrong way.

[galloglas]

51. The unconscious Hillary

refuses to admit that she is is actually "already down", as you put it. Why don't you phone her and clue her in?

[Marrah_G]

75. Really- The letters I have seen very clearly admit that

They also very clearly admit that she will concede defeat and endorse Obama on Saturday.

[Lance_Boyle]

66. not while she's trying to cut us off at the knees from down there. n/t

[Marrah_G]

76. Cut you off at the knees by conceding defeat and endorsing Obama? huh?

[terrya]

5. I don't quite get that either.

Barack Obama is offically our nominee.

One would think that would be enough.

[TeamsterDem]

6. Some folks are taking it too far. I agree. But I think the resentment

comes from the stories (which I admit are just stories) that suggest she's trying to manipulate the situation to her advantage. In other words I think some think that it's not quite a victory until she is no longer in the race (Saturday) and she strongly endorses the Democratic nominee. It will probably continue until then.

[jgraz]

7. Her concession and endorsement is enough.

Once she does that -- and her supporters drop the VP nonsense -- you'll see her forgotten pretty quickly.

[SeaLyons]

21. Hillary will concede and endorse...

but Obama and his supporters absolutely DO NOT deserve her help or endorsement. She should tell the DNC, Obama and all his supporters to kiss her ass. She and Bill should retire from this shit and move to another country.

[gateley]

26. But it's not only Obama and his supporters who needs her help -

its our country.

[galloglas]

65. Who needs whom?

"Obama and his supporters who needs her help "

I think Obama can handle this without her... The theme is "CHANGE".

:nopity:


"its our country."

Then can we assume that Hillary has demonstrated that she "is a uniter, not a divider" just like our present POTUS?

IMHO, this country doesn't need that kind of help, thank you very much!!

[gateley]

67. I WOULD like our country -- the Dems at least -- to be united. nt

[galloglas]

101. Hillary could

end this dissension, and unite the Democrats, with one gracious gesture. But where is it?

She could call a press conference, gracefully step away from public life (for the interim, at least), and rally all her supporters behind Obama. But why does she not do so? I think it has more to do with her (or Bill's) obsessions than with the good of the nation.

[SeaLyons]

74. and that's why she'll be kissing his ass on Saturday

[RaleighNCDUer]

34. I'd be fine with that.

Just so she doesn't continue to work AGAINST the Democratic party.

She can help, or she can shut up. The reign of the DLC is over.

[jgraz]

35. Once again, it's all about Hillary

I really hope, someday, it finally sinks in for you why she lost.

[MH1]

37. But doesn't the country deserve it?

Or does the country not matter? The next generation doesn't matter?

[dionysus]

39. i'll be glad if she moves to another country...would you like to go with them and be their servant?

them being royalty to you and all...

[Terran]

46. Why, exactly, does Obama not deserve her endorsement?

Supporter issues aside, Hilary is a Democrat...why would she not endorse the nominee?

[since72]

85. Bill and Hillary move to another country?

What a great idea!

[SeaLyons]

114. I think Obama disagrees with you..

[racaulk]

91. Those grapes must be sour.

[Junkdrawer]

98. Start a fund for the move and she'll be able to retire her campaign debt...

in a matter of weeks.

[onetwo]

190. LOL, OK. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight, let her do that...

You're acting like she can pack up her 18 million votes and take them with her.

Here's the real (untold) story: The majority of her votes DID NOT come from people that you would find here on DU. They're not on Politico and Huffington reading and posting daily. Clinton's votes came largely from Joe and Jane Mainstream who "remember the 90's" and voted on brand name. After 16 years in the public eye, the Clintons have built up a reliable legion of low-information Democrats that will come to the polling place, make their 10-minute decision, and leave. (Explains her preference for primaries and not high-involvement caucuses.) These are the same people that will simply look for the "D" on the ballot and pull the lever in the GE.

Expect a large portion of her constituency to fall in line come November. We're already seeing it in Obama's 30-point lead over McCain with Hispanics. "D" strongholds will come back to "D" whether it's Hillary on the ballot or not. ESPECIALLY this year.

[racaulk]

193. Exactly right.

And welcome to DU! :hi:

[eissa]

8. I understand what you're saying

some of the glee displayed here may be over the top. BUT.....she hasn't conceded, and she will remain in the news cycle until she does. We'll see what happens this weekend, hopefully she'll make up for her speech on Tuesday, endorse the nominee graciously, and we can all move on.

[jwirr]

9. It is enough but it will help if she moves towards party unity. It is about

reclaiming our country.

[bain_sidhe]

10. U / H = PM: Cui Bono?

Or, in text: Unity divided by hate equals President McCain: Who benefits?

The motivation of the bashers must be subjected to this... er, test? formula? theorem? what would you call it?

[Marrah_G]

17. True- I've often thought they manipulated all of this

But like most things in life: I see a train coming, I see people on the tracks, I can't get said people to move.

[EFerrari]

28. I'd call it bullshit. Clinton needs to finish what she started.

And if calling someone on their anti-social behavior is "bashing", so be it.

Gosh, if either of my kids acted this way after a game, I'd ground them.

[msallied]

11. After Saturday, when she finally concedes, the tone will change.

[Arkansas Granny]

120. I wouldn't bet on that. I think there are some here who have gotten to really

enjoy hating on Hillary. It's grown into some kind of addiction, it seems. They can't help themselves. It reaaly needs to stop if we are going to come together and elect a Democrat.

[Zhade]

179. You really need to learn the difference between hating HER and hating her ACTIONS.

Speaking for myself, I don't hate clinton. I hate her track record of proven, undeniable lies, race-baiting and general scumbaggery. I don't give one fuck about her as an individual.

[Arkansas Granny]

191. I understand the difference between hating a person and hating their actions.

I still believe there are some here, not all, who have gotten such a charge out of hating Hillary that it will be very hard for them to stop. Hate is something that feeds on itself until it becomes an irrational obsession. It's not healthy.

[Adelante]

12. Hillary should answer those questions

Why is it not enough?

[mikelgb]

13. I think it is the lack of comity on the Senator's part...

I am a neutral outsider to the Obama/Clinton tit4tat

though I have been lees than impressed with her tactics

BTW, as a Kucinich supporter, I cannot frown on her going all the way to the convention...

she should have acknowledged his gaining enough delegates though

[Butch350]

24. I think it is the lack of comity on the Senator's part...

Your not an outsider anymore.

[bowens43]

15. poor pitiful hillary

Have you made a posting asking then why they are continue to attack outr nominee?

[AtomicKitten]

18. Still waiting on that concession and endorsement without Lucy pulling the football away.

[peoli]

19. I think until she ends her holdout we will all be a little pissed....

I know she is apparently leaning that way but until we see it we wont believe it. We also dont like having her forced down our throats as a VP MUST DO OR DIE choice. And of course we remember many things from the campaign.

From where Im standing she has alot of work to do to bring her supporters in. Obama has extended his hand on many many occasions.

[EFerrari]

20. Because Clinton has not yet ended it by publicly conceding.

There are rituals that we use to hold the party together as a group. One of them is for the losing competitor to concede promptly and to congratulate the winner publicly. She hasn't done that. Her endorsement can wait, that's a different matter.

Had she done that Tuesday night, she could have spared herself (and us) a lot of negativity.

[americanstranger]

25. I've moved on already.

Why the drama?

- as

[smoogatz]

27. I'm guessing it'll stop once she gets around to actually, publicly conceding

and endorsing the nominee.

[RiverStone]

29. Give it a little more time....

Most of us are moving on. There is no reason to diss Hillary anymore. Period.

It's only divisive.

And if you need to, take a break and come back after 12:00 noon next Wednesday.

By then all the negative BS from both sides will be history.

Hope in time you join the O train --- we need you!


peace~:)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

31. Night of the Living Hillary...

People are still pounding Clinton because she has shown herself to be a bit of a Zombie, coming back to life repeatedly after we thought she had been duly dispatched. She appears "dead" now. but will she remain so or come back once again to haunt us???

[EFerrari]

38. . . .

:rofl:

[DevonRex]

32. Marrah, I think you deserve an honest answer from me about this.

I was deeply troubled by her speech on the night Obama won the nomination. I continue to be disappointed in other things, as well, like the fact that she had to be forced to concede by some of her endorsers in the senate and house. I'm disappointed that she did not inform Senator Obama that she plans to suspend her campaign and support him. He had to learn this from the media.

I am mistrustful of her because of the petitions going around trying to force Obama to choose her as his VP. I am mistrustful of her because she is not releasing her delegates.

Yes, Edwards did not release his delegates right away. But once he decided whom to endorse, he did release them.

We must have unity in order to win in November. That unity must begin immediately. But by retaining her delegates, that cannot happen, even if she verbalizes support for Obama.

I will reserve judgment on whether she intends to have a roll call vote for her as VP at the convention until I see better proof than Andrea Mitchell. But retaining those delegates is certainly something that points more to it being true than untrue.

[EFerrari]

41. And the larger issue is, a leader sets the tone, is examplary.

And she's setting an ugly tone and a bad example. We all deserve better than that. Certainly, Obama does. And in a way, she does, too. She's undercutting her own achievements in this race by disrespecting the process.

[Marrah_G]

42. Let me say this then

Obama has won, Hillary has admitted he has won and is having an event to both concede and endorse him in 2 days.

Even if the people here don't like her.... why can they not just move on and be happy for Obama.

I am finding it nearly impossible to join with the Obama people as I would like to and to add my passion to his campaign because frankly 75% of the posts here are people slamming Hillary not posts praising Obama or going after his real opponent.

HE won..... SHE lost....The Media is spreading the VP crap, blowing it out of proportion to create more drama. Hillary herself has said nothing about being VP except to say she would accept if Obama asked. Other then that she has written two letters to her supporters stating that she is dropping out and endorsing Obama. yet it is still not enough. GDP wants blood and will be happy with little else then the total destruction of a good woman, a liberal woman and a good Senator.

Again... I do not understand the obsession with being angry and the complete inability to be happy that you won, which is what I have been seeing here the past couple days.

[EFerrari]

43. Your question has been answered clearly and repeatedly in this thread.

It isn't really over until Hillary does the right thing. There are rules in this game, written and unwritten.

Nobody here wants blood. A simple social gesture would probably do the job very nicely, if it's not too late for that.

[DevonRex]

56. We're waiting for the other shoe to drop. Had she handled

this in the way most people do when they lose, we would react like most people do when they win.

Until she actually concedes and releases those delegates, there is going to be mistrust.

Our choice would have been for her to do those things on Tuesday night so we could all move on. Wednesday would have been good. Thursday would have been good. Friday would be good. We all have to wait until Saturday for the official suspension and announcement of her support for Obama.

We aren't dragging this out and neither are you. There is only one person who can put a stop to this and it's not us and it's not you. And, as I said, until she releases her delegates there will be a lot of mistrust. That is her choice, not ours and not yours. I only wish we had the power to make it happen.

[Marrah_G]

60. I still don't get it- I am still left scratching my head

I am still left wondering how the hell I am supposed to come together and find any joy in this election.

I hope you are right and that after Saturday it stops. But I don't have much faith in those who seem to find such glee in kicking a woman who is already down.

[DevonRex]

71. It will stop because everyone here wants it to stop. We have much

work to do together in the coming months. And thankfully there are so many of us who really like and respect each other, no matter which candidate they supported.

Hang in there and ignore those mean posters above. If there are people who keep up the rancor after GDP goes out of business, we'll all ignore them - no matter which one they're bashing. We will follow Obama's lead and find common ground. :hug:

[Marrah_G]

81. Yup that's what I have been doing

It just struck me as odd that AFTER she admits defeat and plans her concession event I can't seem to click ignore fast enough. More and more just keep coming. Hell my ignore list already has like 200 people on it.

[DevonRex]

86. LOL! What is it called when single-cell creatures reproduce by

dividing? Anyway, I think that's what ignore-list creatures do overnight.

[SwampG8r]

63. heres why

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6286511

[galloglas]

92. Marrah, maybe it is this

What you are saying would be great... and probably enough... if it is indeed, true. Problem is, there are many people (take vendors, etc. throughout the primary) who are promised things by the Clinton machine that are not delivered.

So, kinda like the folks still holding financial chits from the campaign, the rest of us have come to believe in Clinton Promises only when they are irrevocably fulfilled, with no room for weasel-wording.

It would be great if the event she plans in two days is used for concession and endorsement. But, considering that she immediately called on her 18 million person army to go to her website to "tell her what to do" in the wake of Tuesday's announcement by Obama, her actions on Friday are still in question to many of us.

Seeing is believing. Sorry, but the Clintons have lost our trust.

[Vattel]

111. self-delete

[dionysus]

36. you sound bitter. banky will make it all better;

[DanTex]

40. We're reflecting on a race that just ended, and concerned about what crazy sh*t she'll try next.

This a discussion board. The primary is on a lot of our minds. I don't know about you, but I don't stop thinking or talking about things the second they are "over". We're sharing our feelings and opinions.

And by the way, Hillary hasn't even conceded yet. It's been "over" for three months, in the sense that we know who the nominee would be. But that didn't stop Hillary from making noise. A fair number of her supporters are still saying things like "SDs can change their mind". Now we hear she might keep her name on the ballot in Denver. Who knows what the hell she's gonna pull next. She already attempted a move that people called the "nuclear option".

A lot of us used to be Clinton fans. And now she's tearing the party apart. It's sad to see how far she's fallen. And it's sad that she can't even bring herself to exit gracefully. That's a valid topic for discussion.

Another thing is that she might want to be VP. There is a movement to try and force Obama to choose her as VP. In light of that possibility, it is 100% appropriate to highlight everything she's done over the primary campaign to trash our nominee and divide our party.

If Hillary actually concedes gracefully and returns to the senate and stops making noise, then you'll find that there will be less and less Hillary posts. But, based on her actions over the last few months, I wouldn't bet on it.

[knixphan]

45. seconded.

[tedoll78]

53. What's so bothersome to me..

.. is that so many here seem much more intent on kicking the crap out of her rather than McCain.

When you beat a video game boss and the timer is ticking, you don't stand there idly taunting it when you know that the next boss - the final boss - is in his castle waiting for you. You start preparing immediately for that final battle. Hillary has been defeated; she may be thrashing about in the lava making a bit of noise before finally going under, and her crazier minions may be running around making woe-is-me noises for the town criers to amplify, but she's DONE.

Hillary does not control what we choose to focus on now that this nomination is sealed, and her choice to wait a few days seems like a paper-thin excuse to continue the hatefest on one of our own.

[Zhade]

180. I used to be one of those who defended her all day long. Then she lied to me. Repeatedly.

What's more, those lies could not be denied. Not with video evidence.

[wvbygod]

44. Because Obama got .01% more votes than Hillary

By Obama cultists that is a landslide. They want it all and they want it now.

[EFerrari]

70. Miss Manners, is that you? n/t

[wvbygod]

94. Sometimes. Dodge E. Question could that be you?

Still not seeing it.

[EFerrari]

99. Your sight is thankfully not my responsibility. n/t

[knixphan]

47. why is it not over for people obsessed with Tony Rezco?

http://sugarnspice.typepad.com/

[northernsoul]

48. Because none of that matters if McCain goes to the White House

and at this point, reasonable minds are asking if Senator Clinton will be a help or a hinderance to that ultimate goal.

[The Magistrate]

49. The Reason Is Simple, Ma'am

The support for any political figure is always a coalition comprising groups with varying motives. Viewed most broadly, support for Sen. Obama consists of persons who support Sen. Obama for his own character and views and promise as a leader for our country, and of persons for whom his candidacy is a vehicle to attack and hopefully to destroy utterly someone else. The former group, certainly the great majority of his supporters, is at present quite happy. The latter group, a rather narrow slice of the gentleman's supporters, is not, for the defeat of the person they wish to attack and destroy is not yet complete destruction, and they sense the window of opportunity for free attack may be narrowing daily.

[jsmirman]

58. I don't think that's true. I think there's some legitimate concern over what exactly she's doing

and some legitimate confusion. And that doesn't seem unjustified (please see my post below).

And please stop rushing to judgment and generalizing, even in a post that aims to differentiate between two groups. It's not becoming of a mod. It's the same lack of thoroughness that you displayed when you locked a post of mine by making a gross and hasty assumption I was referring to one incident and not another.

[The Magistrate]

79. You Referred To An Incident That Was Eight Years Old, Sir

It did not prevent her first election to the Senate, nor her second. Therefore, it clearly has very little resonance with any element of the electorate in New York, and certainly none at present with the national rank and file of the Party. We have quite enough heat in the forum just now with things that are current, and of actual present impact. Threads are locked as flame-bait mostly to reduce the temptation to mis-behavior by other members encountering the thread, who either pile in with ever escalating rhetoric we have to remove as violations of the rules, or who lose their tempers under provocation and make 'rebuttals' that are personal attacks of various sorts we have to remove. We very much prefer not to have to remove posts and mark things onto members' records, and flame-bait locks are one of our tools to that end.

[jsmirman]

124. When someone's one justification for clinging to the stage is a populist one

I find the incident relevant.

It has always stuck with me, and believe me, there are many people here in NY State who still remember it. I don't see how citing her win in that Senate election is relevant to anything- she was running against Rick freaking Lazio, for Godsakes.

But it is not the locking of the thread I most object to- it is that you sure made it sound like you were certain I was floating the "Iowa incident" even though I had clearly explained that this was not what I was talking about. To cite that would have been going to a well that has at least been drained for the purposes of this primary season. The incident I referred to was something that was a personal memory that was relevant to me.

I'm fine with locking the thread and your reasoning makes sense- but misrepresenting what I said is extremely dissatisfying.

[DevonRex]

62. I respect your opinion but I completely disagree. My reasons are

as I stated above to Marrah, someone whom I admire greatly and have come to genuinely like.

[The Magistrate]

89. Your View In No. 32 Above, Ma'am, Is Very Close To Mine In This Matter

[DevonRex]

96. That's wonderful! Now I feel pretty darned smart. :)

[Marrah_G]

64. I hope you are right Sir and I hope that they will move along soon.

[The Magistrate]

104. The Overwhelming Majority Will, Ma'am

Just as the overwhelming majority of Sen. Clinton's supporters will move on and range themselves solidly behind Sen. Obama in the coming weeks and months. We are going to win this thing....

"More Wars! Less Jobs! McCain '08"

[EFerrari]

78. I don't believe that's fair, Sir.

Call it habit, custom, ritual or good form, the losing candidate is expected to make a public gesture. That wasn't done in a timely way and it's no surprise that people are irritated right now.

[The Magistrate]

88. Sen. Clinton Certainly Has Not Displayed Good Form In Defeat, Ma'am: There Is No Question Of That

But you would surely not deny that there has been, shall we say, a reservoir of hate for her existing long before this primary season, that has found some outlet during the primary campaign, and taken Sen. Obama as that outlet for its present expression.

[EFerrari]

93. Of course. And soon, Mrs Obama will be swimming in the same

waters. There's no doubt about that, as well.

[Zhade]

181. A greatly simplistic - and flawed - analysis, of course.

First, because pointing out her proven lies isn't a mere attempt to destroy her, but to provide the truth - and second, because one can both be for Obama and against clinton.

[The Magistrate]

186. The 'Of Course' Tacked On there At The End, My Friend, Is Truly Touching

"There are exceptions to every generalization, including this one."

[ProSense]

50. The DNC has moved on

Obama vs. McCain

[Tommy_Carcetti]

52. I'm afraid it is pathological at this point. Seriously. There is something really wrong with them.

I'd like to say it will go away Saturday, but honestly, I don't think so. I honestly think for a few of these instigators there is just this instinct to continue to trash and bash beyond all points of usefulness.

For some people, it is much easier to tear down than to build up. They don't care about coalition building. They don't care about party unity. By golly, they just want their fun. And fun to them is to continue to exasperate an exasperating primary at the expense of the rest of us and what it will mean in November.

They will sit here and nitpick about every damn thing until the cows come home, just because it keeps up that sick sense of joy they get in obsessing over the other candidate. Nothing will make them happy. Absolutely nothing. They will act like two-year olds and then project upon others their own childishness.

I really think everybody accepts the fact that Senator Obama is the presumptive nominee at this point. No one here is disputing that. And it is a good thing, to finally have our presumptive nominee, no matter who he or she is, because it means we can now look forward to the much more important task of winning in November. Because listen up folks--if we don't win in November, this all is meaningless. Frankly, all the drama and the ugly words and the blame games were useless from the get-go, but if you are going to sit around and nitpick about what was said in speeches, what wasn't said in speeches, when the official concession will occur, how it will happen, etc., frankly, please don't bother volunteering or being active in the general election campaign. We don't need such petty and insolent representing our party and our nominee to the nation. You can put in your vote for Senator Obama and be done with it. But I've had about as much as I can handle with people whose main intent clearly is only to be rude, unmagnanimous (in victory of all things) and just plain divise.

We have an election to win in November.

[Zhade]

182. You'd be surprised - I'm still seeing "the SDs can change their minds" posts.

NT!

[ampad]

54. So now we are putting people on pedestals

This is what I do not understand. This is an democratic board where people are allowed to post their opinion, or so I thought. People have the right to have criticism of Hillary and that is not going to change because she did not win this nomination. I had criticism of her before she ran and I will after. I'm not going to hold my tongue because some of you are so damn sensitive. I have criticism of Howard Dean when he ran and I still do. Did the Dean supporters demand that folks only say nice things about him or did they just let other have their opinion and move on?

[jsmirman]

55. To be perfectly honest, I'm confused as to what's going on

She's endorsing but keeping her name on the ballot? Is this protocol? Is this unusual? Unprecedented? Only slightly precedented?

Is she doing this to push some fight for the VP slot, so her supporters can light one last final and all-destroying pyre of resentment and indignation when she doesn't get it (she won't) and she can push as many of them as possible to join her in destroying our party?

I don't know what she's doing and I'm not clear on how the game is being played.

That's just my honest statement of where my mind is at.

[Beacool]

57. Because they haven't done with their gloating yet.

Best ignore the kids until they come to the realization that they won't win without Hillary and her supporters.

[LoZoccolo]

59. Because she's done the kind of damage we never want to see again.

Anyone thinking of pulling the same tricks to win a primary must be presented with an example that not only will it not work, but we'll politically go after them long after the primary is over too.

[Zenmaster]

61. No. Winning the Nomination is not enough.

A Democrat was ALWAYS going to be the nominee. Democrats want to see a Democrat in the White House, not just the Democratic nominee.

So, no. Obviously, getting the nomination is not enough.

[VeraAgnes]

68. Because he limped across the finish line

and had to take delegates from Hillary to even do that. He has only a photo finish not a clear and obvious win.

[Zhade]

183. You SO WISH that were true, but he SPANKED her.

NT!

[harun]

69. Because it is not about getting the nomination or about Obama, it is about winning in November!

[FatDave]

72. After reading Hillary's email that went to her supporters today, I will now back off.

But it bears repeating that prior to that email there were definitely mixed messages coming out of the campaign. Friday, saturday, maybe an endorsement, maybe just a recognition (whatever that means). I've seen too many "she's definitely conceding this time" moments to fully believe that this time, she really is definitely conceding. Like Rachel Maddow, I lean towards "I'll believe it when I see it," but the email today seems pretty definitive, so I'll lay off. If prior to Saturday something happens and her speech ends up falling short of concession and endorsement, you'd better believe I will be screaming, and I hope that you will join me.

Also the tone of her speech on Tuesday should not be understated. While she has supporters here who will defend it, it seems that that speech was a deciding factor in her supporters in the house having their meeting with her the next day.

And lastly, I would like to say that as of Tuesday night, Hillary Clinton supporters on DU have been far more gracious than Hillary Clinton herself has. I don't think I've seen anyone here claiming that it still isn't over. Well, not anyone that anybody takes the least bit seriously. The overwhelming theme from (former) Clinton supporters is that now that she's conceding, Obama supporters need to lay off of her. While this is definitely a valid point, I think the anxiousness on the part of some Obama supporters is justified as well. Once that concession and endorsement comes this weekend, cooler heads will prevail.

[LisaM]

73. Believe me, this happened at our house this morning

It's not enough for my SO that I said I wouldn't vote for McCain in a million years and that I would vote for Obama (what choice do I have?) He wants me to like Obama. Well, if that was the kind of politician I liked in the first place, I would have liked him before! I get it! McCain will turn back the clock on women's rights! I have to vote for Obama! I get it!

But I don't have to LIKE him. I have to say, I feel exactly the same right now as I did after Bush v. Gore. EXACTLY THE SAME. I have never felt like this after a primary before. That tells me a lot about how Obama's campaign was run.

[Lilith Velkor]

157. I know what you mean

I don't even like Hillary, it was just a lesser of evils decision.

I was talking to an Obama-supporting friend the other day, and I realized what I was really afraid of: that he would get the nomination and lose, and my city would burn to the ground. That's still a very real possibility, but I'm resigned to it. It's just one of those things in the background, like tsunamis or terrorism, that could happen but you get on with life anyway.

One of the most heartbreaking things about this whole primary was hearing an elderly African American gentleman emphatically say, "I don't want him to win! He gonna get shot, then what?"

It's gonna be reeeeal interesting times here in Dodge City. Maybe we'll finally get representation in Congress. But after all the crazy shit we've been through these last eight years, I'm not getting my hopes up. I just can't.

[NatBurner]

80. for what it's worth, i've moved on

i'm looking forward to the GE myself

i'm planning to do whatever i can to get new voters registered, and try to turn texas blue-

also, for what it's worth-
this is the REAL enemy:



we don't have to like each other to kick HIS sorry ass

all this infighting will be over soon enough
and when we all go after mccain with the same intensity that we're going after each other?
it'll be a beautiful thing-

watch

[tedoll78]

83. He scares me.

And the thought of Justices Ginsburg and Stevens having to hold-on for another four years scares me to no end.

[NatBurner]

119. me too... honestly? i haven't been paying much attention to him during the primaries

but i DID see him say

"my friend, i will NEVER surrender in iraq"

or some dumb shit like that-

and that chilled me to the bone

and whatever criticisms i have of senator clinton? i would GLADLY vote for her over that asshole

the primaries are over now, however, and we need to focus

the whole "divide and conquer" technique is always effective, but i say

NOT THIS TIME

[racaulk]

87. It's called being a sore winner.

There are sore winners on one side just like there are sore losers on the other side. After spending so many months fighting and campaigning for one candidate during this long and brutal primary season, I think some people -on both sides- just want to let off a little steam. Like Skinner said, some people just can't change gears that quickly. It's really unfortunate to see, and I'm not saying that I condone it, but to me it's not totally unexpected.

Fortunately, it will only go on here at DU until June 11, and that day can't come soon enough. Take a break until then if you have to, but please try to not let this bother you too much.

:hi:

[Forkboy]

90. The two sides have been battling for over a year.

Quite emotionally, I might add. Human nature doesn't just switch off at the snap of the fingers, which is why Skinner gave BOTH sides a week to get it out of their systems. There are some on both sides who just aren't very nice people and they'll have a tough time adjusting, but the vast majority will do so easily, and many already have. Give it time to wind down. The ugliness here isn't hurting Hillary at all, and it'll be gone soon anyways, either through banning or people wising up and moving on to the real enemy.

[SoFlaJet]

95. Oh Marrah

just bask in the glory of all the love that is here at DU for you-we all read the posts from last night from all your suitors. Now can you please post a picture for the rest of us horny old men?

[Mass]

97. Because it always takes people time to move on. On both sides.

For those people who have spent months attacking one of the two candidates (which is not your case), it will take a few days at least, if not a few weeks, to move on.

I would say to you what I say to those who complain against the continued attacks on Obama (that I do not see because I have put most of these people on ignore a long time ago). Give them some time. They will move on too, when Hillary Clinton has made a clear commitment to support Obama. It is coming. Saturday, as I understand them. Once it is done, these people will move on.

[JackORoses]

100. If she wasn't trying to bully her way onto the ticket, noone would be talking about her

[paperbag_ princess]

102. It is just mean spirited

Just when I start to have a positive thought about getting on board, I read something nasty and wonder why I would want to associate with these types of people. I think I am just going to register as an independent. I used to be proud to be a democrat.

[depakid]

105. Asking people with low EQ's (or OCD) to explain their behavior

is like asking freepers why they can't spell or use proper grammar.

[EstimatedProphet]

106. What's an EQ?

[smiley_glad_hands]

113. Emotional Quotiant. eom

[EFerrari]

110. You haven't read this thread, then. n/t

[depakid]

121. I was thinking more of the dozens of other threads

that one can see here on a daily basis.

Some of what's here is healthy online venting, but a lot more it has gotten to the point of being pathological.

And that's coming from someone who's posted more criticism of the Clintons on this board over the years than pretty much anyone here.

[papapi]

107. Hillary has shown disrespect by her inability to concede, plain and simple.

[smiley_glad_hands]

115. I feel for ya. But Hill is bringing this upon you.

I personally have tried to tone down my rhetoric, except when i see that bogus popular vote meme and bs about dems staying home in Nov.

I guess your just going to have to wait it out until Hill officially concedes or next Wednesday.

[ProSense]

116. Maybe Hillary's speech was move to Saturday

so it wouldn't coincide with the anniversary of RFK's assassination. Still, it would have been so much better if she had concede and thrown her support behind Obama on Tuesday night.

The delay was uncalled for.

[tedoll78]

118. The delay might've been non-ideal..

.. but it also doesn't justify such a high level of nastiness towards a fellow Democrat.

Regardless of when this week her endorsement happens, Hillary can't prevent Obama from kicking McCain's a** all over the headlines. :)

[ProSense]

123. Being a leader, and why

timing is everything

[tedoll78]

125. Both sides have crazed, pathological fans.

It still doesn't justify such nastiness, especially when we supposedly need to be uniting against Mr 100 Years.

[ProSense]

128. Nothing justifies nastiness, but look at what happened at the RBC meeting.

Obama told supporters to stay away. Hillary encouraged them to participate, and they showed up spewing her vitriolic talking points.

The critics will always be there, but this is not about them, this is about Hillary's leadership.

If she gave her critics nothing to be critical of, then the ones who continued would stand out. As it stands now, her actions are inflaming the situation.

[tedoll78]

131. As it stands now, her intent is clear.

I have the distinct feeling that no matter what she says or does, a certain small percentage of her crazier supporters will continue the fight. And I'm not going to project the blame onto her for that - these adults are responsible for their own behavior.

If you want to use that as a cheap excuse to continue the Democrat-bashing, muttering "she's evil! She's evil!" whilst rocking in the corner, by all means be my guest.

I'll be joining the rest of the party against McCain.

[ProSense]

133. Her "intent is clear," but that is the problem, isn't it?

A lot of people are still upset that she's still at the point of intent.

[tedoll78]

134. In that case, I don't know what to say.

There's no answer for their condition. They'll just have to wait these three super-long horrible days, and everyone else will have to listen to their whining for the time being.

[ProSense]

136. "everyone else will have to listen to their whining" Or ignore it. This is a discussion forum.

Telling people to stop criticizing Hillary when criticism is justifiable isn't helpful.

[tedoll78]

138. And that's where my crux is:

would you rather spend your precious time:
1) whining about an also-ran who's about to endorse your candidate, or
2) refocusing on the real enemy?

One of those options is constructive and helps towards the end-goal. The other option doesn't.

Is that plain enough for you?

[ProSense]

141. "whining about an also-ran"? "Ignore it," didn't imply "it" was whining. Still

referring to Hillary as an "also-ran" to characterize criticism of her as whining, is silly.

She failed to concede the race with grace, and her intent to concede has angered many, including her some of her top donors.

[Zhade]

184. What I don't get is why some of you don't understand we hate HER ACTIONS, not her.

Like, say, her proven repeated lies.

[The Magistrate]

189. The 'Hate The Sin, Not the Sinner' Wheeze, Sir

Sounds no better from left progressives than it does from right fundamentalists.

[Vattel]

117. I don't blame you

for having reservations about working with the sort of Obama supporters that are so common at DU. There's really nothing unusual about Clinton taking a couple of days to take stock and regroup before officially conceding, and she's already said many times that Obama would be a far better choice for President than McCain. She'll say it again, of course, in a couple of days. But people blinded by passion will find anything she says or does to be somehow evil. The RFK nonsense is the case in point. If dark motives can be read into her mentioning RFK's assassination in the context of making a point about the length of primaries, well, don't expect these supporters to be rational in their treatment of Clinton.

[ProSense]

122. "There's really nothing unusual..." There was something unusual

Terry McAwful introducing her as the "next president."

[Vattel]

126. you are correct, that was unusual n/t

[Raineyb]

187. Not to mention disrespectful

But it appears that respect is a one way street in the party these days.

Regards

[TBF]

127. I'm with you. I've decided that effectively immediately I'm not opening

any threads that have "Hillary" "Clinton" or any variation thereof in the title. It is time to move on. Now we talk about Obama v. McCain.

[Hepburn]

129. Glad you are getting behind Obama who is our nominee...

...as to Hillary: IMO, her conduct is what destroyed her. Commenting on what she has done is not what destroyed her. She did it to herself.

JMHO

[Zhade]

185. Indeed! SHE DID IT TO HERSELF.

Shouldn't have been such a liar.

[cynatnite]

130. Because some are obsessed with hating Hilary n/t

[kdpeters]

135. It will happen. If she gracefully concedes and joins up with the rest of the party

The rest of the party as well as DU will be gracious in return. We all want to be on the same side once again, but as long as she keeps open the option of taking this to the convention and ripping this party apart, then we're still fighting the primary and that is HER choice to keep this up. You are addressing people who are merely responding to the continued challenge she poses to our nominee. That's a shitty thing for her to do and an outcome that must be resisted. That's why it's not yet enough. She's not yet on our side -- the side of the Democrats.

If she concedes and then joins the rest of us in winning the White House, you'll see nothing but good will toward Senator Clinton from that point forward. Come Saturday or Sunday, it should be easier then to get on the Democratic presidential train. I really do believe it will happen that fast -- even before Skinner's deadline. Just hold out for two more days and we'll all be on the same side again.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

137. Because the conflict between the left and right wings of the party are never over.

The Clintons picked up the mantle of right wing of the party and "triangulated" it into a pale imitation of the Republican party under the banner of winning at any price.

The left objects to that strategy as self-defeating for obvious reasons.

As long as the right wing of the party is around the left will fight it.

[GalleryGod]

140. Tarred & feathered feelings...

"hard working white voters" right out of George Corley Wallace stump speech circa 1968 (Clinton Camp forgot about Lexus-Nexus)

"Jesse Jackson won South Carolina TWICE..." (DFL)

"My Dad took me out behind a shack and taught me how to shoot"

"Corkscrew landing...under sniper fire" (1 p.m. Philadelphia,Pa. 3/17/08)
Bill sez: "They asked her about at 11 oclock at night & she was exhausted.
OOPS! Forgot to remember my teenage daughter was long!?!

:puke:

[Vattel]

155. um,

hard-working black voters were largely supporting Obama (oh, now I see that she was channeling George Wallace), and Jesse Jackson did win South Carolina (oh, I forgot about the evil subtext: "Obama is just the black candidate").

Granted, a bit silly talking about her gun-slingin' childhood, and the Bosnia thing was, as Hillary put it, "embarassing."

[butterfly77]

142. These are some of the reasons

[mokawanis]

143. It's time to drop all grievances

and get with the party, united against McSame. As an Obama supporter I said early on I would wholeheartedly support Clinton if she got the nomination and I am sorely disappointed that others can't be objective and reasonable enough to support Obama now. Hillary will make her speech tomorrow and support Obama - it's time to cheer her for doing that and rally all dems together.

[IndependentDem]

145. as you know, not all of us aboard the O-Train are bad...

I think we need to look past the antics of the others for a couple of days... as long as Clinton gives a good speech on saturday i think the hate will die down and we can get to business on McCain.

[Bake]

146. Long-time Hillary fan here.

I know it's been hard, and I hated to let go also, as perhaps you still do. But we've got to be big enough to back the Democratic nominee or we'll end up with four more years of BushCo.

We can back Obama, and even be inspired by him, without endorsing all the craziness of some of his more zealous followers. Remember that people sitting safely behind their keyboards can/will say a lot of crap.

Hill will go back to the Senate, keep her seat, and continue to work for things that really matter.

Come on over, let's get a Dem in the White House.

Bake

[baldguy]

147. The only way to really kill a vampire is to drive a steak through its heart.

As recently as yesterday I've seen people here say that Hillary really didn't lose, and that the super delegates will all vote for her at the convention.

[Iggo]

148. That fight is over. Move on...(n/t)

[hokies4ever]

152. Come on Marrah_G, you're better than this

I've come to like you as a poster. You have shown that you are very mature, so try to rise above any pettiness you see here.

I think that some Obama supporters are still skeptical. They are waiting to hear Hillary's 'endorsement' to see if it's half-hearted.

[otohara]

154. This Question Again ??? Shame on You

Senator Obama, shame on YOU!

Do I need to run through the rest of her unbelievable quotes?

We've been a divided nation for 8 years, now we're a divided party in racial/gender terms and it's mostly the fault of The Clinton's -

I'm not happy with her and what's funny - I started out loving her.

[sampsonblk]

156. She brought this all on herself, by her behavior

She basically joined with the other side to try to destroy Obama permanantly. She hasn't the power to undo the damage she is done.

[Danger Mouse]

163. I agree. I don't believe in gloating.

Well, sometimes. :D But not this time.
I like a lot of you Clinton supporters, and I want us to get along to move on and all of that.

[IsItJustMe]

164. It is enough. Look around you. Sure there are a few idiots posting smack about Hillary. But for

the most part, NO. So please don't make a mountain over a mole hill. It is over.

[Imagevision]

165. It's more then enough, -> anything further is redundant - should be concentrating on McBush...

[rucky]

168. There will always be negative posts.

But the positive ones greatly outweigh right now and onward. I know it's hard to ignore when it presses your buttons, but, now they're in the minority.

[hayu_lol]

170. Makes for a great headline...OBAMA WINS...

Of course, being older than many, I remember another great headline:

DEWEY WINS.

[Auntie Bush]

169. Same thing I can't understand and it's the problem I'm experiencing.

"I am really trying to understand this. I am really trying to get on the O-Train. But all I see is a party on the train that consists mostly of stomping on the body of a Democratic Senator."

And people wonder why Bil Clinton...the Democratic President of our party...sounds angry! I can't imagine what's the man's problem! Gee, he's changed! Well maybe it's the people (Obama supporters) out there who have changed...and not for the better!

[Hippo_Tron]

171. Do you want an honest answer or are you just asking a rhetorical question?

Here's the honest answer...

She pissed on Obama's victory party on Tuesday night. No, it doesn't make a dime's worth of difference politically as nobody will care in a month. But Obama supporters who worked their asses off for him wanted that night to celebrate the fact that we have nominated the first African American candidate and they wanted to do so without the news media talking about Hillary trying to jockey for the VP nod.

The people who are saying that it's going to damage the party are wrong just as they were wrong about her taking it to the convention. But the simple fact is that was not gracious to Senator Obama and his supporters, it was a rallying call to her own supporters.

If she had conceded, congratulated Obama on winning, and acknowledged the historical significance of nominating the first African American candidate, and pledged to do everything in her power to get him elected, I think she would be getting a lot more love from Obama supporters.

[Zhade]

174. Well, she's still a proven liar and race-baiter. That didn't change when he got the nomination.

She remains untrustworthy. Should we just forget the scumbag moves she pulled, the lies she told, the arrogance she showed?

Feel free to, but some of us think those things are important to remember about anyone, D-NY or not.

[Umbram]

176. You've got it all wrong.

If you want to get on the "O-Train" it should have nothing to do with GD-P. This board is irrelevant. The Clinton bashers are irrelevant. The Obama supporters are irrelevant.

Get on the "O-Train" because it is the only real remaining option for moving this country forward. Allowing a bunch of anonymous people on the internet to dissuade you from doing the right thing for this country would be foolish. This election and your vote are much, much bigger than GD-P.

[pilar007]

188. Coddling

If you really wanted to get on the O-train...step away from the computer. Why would you want to be influenced negatively by a few posters on DU? I thought Clinton was a strong, aggressive, grown women who can, indeed, has put up with withering scrutiny and scorn. Many of her supporters here play victim and it is childish. This is the big time...can't take the heat..out of the kitchen...go out and campaign, walk precincts, work the polls...but please stop whining and remember the last 8 years of republican nightmares when voting for the democratic candidate.
This shall all pass